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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Chris O on August 20, 2008, at 13:33:11
Due to my anxiety disorder and depression, I've always had a very external locus of control approach to life and interpreting others' personalities. I pose a question: What percent of personality/behavior is just a matter of the way chemicals (or hormones and genetics) are arranged in our bodies? And, if that percentage is very high, doesn't it pretty much scrap the whole free will argument? Doesn't it do away with the idea of "hero" and "better than/worse than," at least as they are conventionally defined in western individualistic terms? And, might this not help us all organize a new empathic paradigm for relating to others so that we can stop resorting to violence as a way to solve problems?
Posted by obsidian on August 27, 2008, at 22:29:03
In reply to What % of personality is just neurotransmitters?, posted by Chris O on August 20, 2008, at 13:33:11
> Due to my anxiety disorder and depression, I've always had a very external locus of control approach to life and interpreting others' personalities. I pose a question: What percent of personality/behavior is just a matter of the way chemicals (or hormones and genetics) are arranged in our bodies? And, if that percentage is very high, doesn't it pretty much scrap the whole free will argument? Doesn't it do away with the idea of "hero" and "better than/worse than," at least as they are conventionally defined in western individualistic terms?
My goodness, now there is a question. Add it to upbringing, socioeconomic status, traumatic events, etc. and how those further affect our biochemistry and that is an even more difficult question to answer.
Who I am is both a symptom and a reaction to the "illness" I suffer with (anxiety, depression, other stuff)>And, might this not help us all organize a new empathic paradigm for relating to others so that we can stop resorting to violence as a way to solve problems?
I try to tell myself, (although truth be told it doesn't always make sense to me, but I trust it just the same) that people generally do the best they can at any given moment depending on what they know, who they are, their experience
I still get angry, sad, disgusted, whatever, in reaction thoughI hope other people respond to this, it's an interesting question
Posted by SLS on August 28, 2008, at 5:12:06
In reply to Re: What % of personality is just neurotransmitters?, posted by obsidian on August 27, 2008, at 22:29:03
"The brain determines the mind as the mind sculpts the brain."
Everything you think and feel is entirely determined by the brain at that moment. However, as soon as you exercise voluntary changes in the way you think, your brain changes as a result. The next time you encounter similar circumstances, the brain will remember its last experience and cause you to think and feel similarly. Afterwards, you have the option to evaluate your response to the present circumstances, and make changes again.
Does this help at all?
- Scott
Posted by Racer on September 9, 2008, at 9:33:48
In reply to Re: What % of personality is just neurotransmitters?, posted by SLS on August 28, 2008, at 5:12:06
I've had a lot of animals in my life, and they've all had very different temperaments. This affects the way they have to be approached -- training a thoroughbred horse is very different from working with a Quarter Horse, for example. They've got an inborn temperament which can't be changed. The sort of training techniques that work just great with a QH will often leave a TB a quivering basket case, and what works with a TB will sometimes produce a QH who'll walk all over you. And if you get the right approach with the right horse, you can get something beautiful.
I think of that when I consider this question. Yes, adjustments to the neurochemical landscape in my head will affect my apparent temperament. But that's not the same as saying my personality is "just" neurochemical in nature.
Years back, the theory was put forward that rheumatoid arthritis was a self-limiting disease: the active phase lasted approximately 21 years, after which it remitted on its own. The ongoing problems were caused by the mechanical damage done to joints during the active phase, and it was that damage which continued the degenerative process beyond the remission of the active, inflammatory stage of the disease. I don't know that there's ever been any consensus about that, but the concept stuck with me, and I think it fits here: the mood disorders cause changes to our behavior, and those changes have lasting effects. That's why I am in favor of therapy for everyone, in addition to meds, by the bye. The depression may be triggered biochemically, but it leads to behaviors which perpetuate depression.
Free will -- I do believe it's important, no matter how much of our personality is initially dictated by chemical processes. I believe we're a product of inborn temperament interacting with the environment -- just as the basket case Thoroughbreds, disrespectful QHs, and perfect partnership horses are.
It's not early enough for me to say "it's too early to make sense" which is quite sad. It's nice to be able to blame the early hour. Instead, I'll have to say, "what? you expect me to think on a Tuesday? What's up with that?" I hope something in there made sense.
Posted by butternut on September 10, 2008, at 19:38:48
In reply to Re: What % of personality is just neurotransmitters?, posted by Racer on September 9, 2008, at 9:33:48
What a great way to phrase the issue. I've often wondered the same thing. I do believe though, that we do have a will, and it can be strengthened through practice; some illnesses are too devastating to be overcome through will alone, however. I read two interesting books, Destructive Emotions, and Happiness: A guide to developing life's most important skill (or something close to that title) that talk about the ability of the mind to influence the brain, for the most part accomplished through Buddhist meditation. They were good, readable books that I find inspiring.
Posted by SLS on January 8, 2009, at 16:40:14
In reply to What % of personality is just neurotransmitters?, posted by Chris O on August 20, 2008, at 13:33:11
100%
Everything you experience is mediated by biological events. The brain-mind connection is pretty cool (Nice work God). They both interact to affect one another simultaneously. Your mind is a product of your brain. Changes in the mind occur when brain function changes. Changes in the brain occur as one's mind navigates through time and space. The two phenomena - mind and brain - are inextricable.
"The brain determines the mind as the mind sculpts the brain" -SLS
- Scott
Posted by desolationrower on January 9, 2009, at 17:15:46
In reply to Re: What % of personality is just neurotransmitters?, posted by SLS on January 8, 2009, at 16:40:14
I'm not disputing mind is emergent phenomena from brain, but saying 100% neurotransmitter is not the same thing. brain is much more than neurotransmitters, the intracellular chemicals, the structure of individual neurons, and the strucutre of brain connections, as well as activity generally classified as neurotransmitter like ion channels, capillary activity, and immune system is profoundly important.
i think its important because if one thinks that neurotrasmitters are all then one ignores too many important factors. There are different levels of mutability that are more or less changable which is part of the challenge to know what we can change and what we can not change.
-d/r
Posted by SLS on January 9, 2009, at 19:02:40
In reply to Re: What % of personality is just neurotransmitters?, posted by desolationrower on January 9, 2009, at 17:15:46
Hi D/R.
> I'm not disputing mind is emergent phenomena from brain, but saying 100% neurotransmitter is not the same thing. brain is much more than neurotransmitters, the intracellular chemicals, the structure of individual neurons, and the strucutre of brain connections, as well as activity generally classified as neurotransmitter like ion channels, capillary activity, and immune system is profoundly important.
>
> i think its important because if one thinks that neurotrasmitters are all then one ignores too many important factors. There are different levels of mutability that are more or less changable which is part of the challenge to know what we can change and what we can not change.I think I understand what you are saying. I agree that it is not possible to understand the brain by simply focusing on chemical neurotransmitters. However, I can't think of a single experiential phenomenon that does not ultimately arise through synaptic neurotransmission; the functions of which involve neurotransmitters. Of course, just because I can't think of any doesn't mean very much.
To play devil's advocate (as if he doesn't already get enough help in this world), I would ask you what functions of the mind do not ultimately depend on neurotransmitters to facilitate them.
- Scott
Posted by Neal on January 14, 2009, at 21:44:12
In reply to Re: What % of personality is just neurotransmitters? » desolationrower, posted by SLS on January 9, 2009, at 19:02:40
OK, SLS, I'll play your game. How about memory?
Posted by desolationrower on January 16, 2009, at 3:19:50
In reply to Re: What % of personality is just neurotransmitters? » desolationrower, posted by SLS on January 9, 2009, at 19:02:40
> Hi D/R.
>
> > I'm not disputing mind is emergent phenomena from brain, but saying 100% neurotransmitter is not the same thing. brain is much more than neurotransmitters, the intracellular chemicals, the structure of individual neurons, and the strucutre of brain connections, as well as activity generally classified as neurotransmitter like ion channels, capillary activity, and immune system is profoundly important.
> >
> > i think its important because if one thinks that neurotrasmitters are all then one ignores too many important factors. There are different levels of mutability that are more or less changable which is part of the challenge to know what we can change and what we can not change.
>
> I think I understand what you are saying. I agree that it is not possible to understand the brain by simply focusing on chemical neurotransmitters. However, I can't think of a single experiential phenomenon that does not ultimately arise through synaptic neurotransmission; the functions of which involve neurotransmitters. Of course, just because I can't think of any doesn't mean very much.
>
> To play devil's advocate (as if he doesn't already get enough help in this world), I would ask you what functions of the mind do not ultimately depend on neurotransmitters to facilitate them.
>
>
> - Scott
>WEll they are necessary, not sufficient. they are important, but their importance is less than what one might assume from how they overshadow other things in our thinking. Consider quarks. Certainly they are involved in every mental process, but understanding particle physics doesn't really shed much light on mental processes.
-d/r
Posted by SLS on January 17, 2009, at 22:29:33
In reply to Re: What % of personality is just neurotransmitters, posted by Neal on January 14, 2009, at 21:44:12
> OK, SLS, I'll play your game. How about memory?
You're fun.
I believe that the brain is a Gestault, and cannot be understood by looking at its fundamental building blocks. I agree with DesolutionRower 100%. This is why I constantly lobby for a change in the name of this board from "Neurotransmitters" to "Neuroscience".
Circuitry. Memory doesn't work unless new connections are made and old ones broken. (It's good to forget certain things). Electrical activity, gene activity and expression, membrane protein alignments, second messenger cascades, ion transport, hormones, negative feedback loops, positive feedback loops, signal amplification and muting, variable signal-to-noise ratios, neurite growth, neural pruning, and - yes - neurotransmitters and synaptic receptor functions. I left out a bunch of stuff for which I am profoundly apologetic. The brain is incredibly complex and indescribably elegant. The Guy that invented it did a hell of a job. Why this same Guy allowed for the occurrence of brain illness in his design - only God knows. I'll let the philosophers and theologians worry about that one.
Personally, I think the shrinking of the size of the hippocampus - the primary structure involved in memory - is due to atrophy from non-use (cerebral activity that would call for its use is globally reduced in severe depression - P.E.T. scans show this) rather than being an etiological pathology for affective illness.
- Scott
Posted by Neal on February 5, 2009, at 20:24:50
In reply to Re: What % of personality is just neurotransmitters » Neal, posted by SLS on January 17, 2009, at 22:29:33
Personally I'll take a madeleine with my tea, and curl up with À La Recherche Du Temps Perdu.
Posted by nokomis on May 21, 2009, at 20:30:46
In reply to Re: personality is just neurotransmitters)Proust, posted by Neal on February 5, 2009, at 20:24:50
Buddhist doctrine has been dealing with this problem for several centuries.
Posted by n_wolfie on June 13, 2009, at 21:52:32
In reply to Re: What % of personality is just neurotransmitters?, posted by SLS on August 28, 2008, at 5:12:06
Scott,
So is this why CBT works? I've tried it, but never in earnest because I've always doubted it's effectiveness.
Posted by Alexanderfromdenmark on July 12, 2009, at 12:38:09
In reply to Re: What % of personality is just neurotransmitters?, posted by n_wolfie on June 13, 2009, at 21:52:32
> Scott,
>
> So is this why CBT works? I've tried it, but never in earnest because I've always doubted it's effectiveness.I reading buddhism in this respect. But I also believe that at a certain point if you are and have been in the dark pit for a too long time, ít can become nearly impossible to pull yourself out of the dark pit without the aid of medication or some other therapy that adresses the body and brain. At some point of a depression has become chronic, I believe in some respects it becomes more akin to a neurological disorder and a psychological one. Also there are a lot of psychical disorders than cause depression. However I also believe we nearly always anyway, have the free will to respond to the signals we get from the brain and body. We can be depressed and keep on trying, or we can be depressed and try and commit suicide. The choice is ours.
Posted by Brainbeard on July 19, 2009, at 16:19:46
In reply to What % of personality is just neurotransmitters?, posted by Chris O on August 20, 2008, at 13:33:11
Neurotransmitters aren't even 'just' neurotransmitters.. Let alone personality being 'just' something else.
This is all just ones and zeroes, by the way.
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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