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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by linkadge on July 22, 2022, at 15:20:17
So, I ordered some Amur Corktree bark from Amazon. It is supposedly one of the most potent (and selective) MAO-B inhibitors.
Over the past 2-4 years I have been experiencing apathy. More recently, I've been experiencing extreme fatigue. There is a possibility I am suffering some form of long COVID.
Anyhow, I have been using the corktree for a week with some notable improvements. The fatigue / brain fog / apathy has improved. Also, the feelings of 'deadness' have been lifting.
Linkadge
Posted by Lamdage22 on July 23, 2022, at 1:36:08
In reply to Amur Corktree arrived, posted by linkadge on July 22, 2022, at 15:20:17
Why would certain MAO-B inhibitors feel different than others?
Posted by SLS on July 23, 2022, at 8:35:37
In reply to Re: Amur Corktree arrived, posted by Lamdage22 on July 23, 2022, at 1:36:08
> Why would certain MAO-B inhibitors feel different than others?
That's a great question. The answer to that question relies on uncertainty I think we have seen enough counterintuitive responses to drugs on this board. Eventually, what we consider counterintuitive today will be easily explainable in the future as more information is gathered.
In my estimation, a robust response to an MAOI depends the inhibition of MAO-A. The package label for EMSAM explains this explicitly. However, a MAO-B inhibitor called pargyline was used to treat depression for many years before it was withdrawn from market. Nothing was wrong with the drug other than its waning popularity.
- Scottt
Posted by Lamdage22 on July 23, 2022, at 12:59:56
In reply to Re: Amur Corktree arrived, posted by SLS on July 23, 2022, at 8:35:37
> Eventually, what we consider counterintuitive today will be easily explainable in the future as more information is gathered.
I look forward to that. At this point psychiatry seems like a mixture of science and art. And unfortunately sometimes discrimination.
Posted by linkadge on July 23, 2022, at 15:39:55
In reply to Re: Amur Corktree arrived, posted by Lamdage22 on July 23, 2022, at 1:36:08
>Why would certain MAO-B inhibitors feel different >than others?
Pure MAO-B inhibitors wouldn't feel different from one another (except for the half-life and that one may or may not be reversible). That being said, a plant based MAO-B inhibitor would have other plant compounds which may have other biological effects.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 23, 2022, at 15:45:30
In reply to Re: Amur Corktree arrived, posted by SLS on July 23, 2022, at 8:35:37
There are some case reports of selegiline providing working for depression in oral doses. There are some additional reports of it being used in conjunction with PEA for depression. It has also been tested for CFS and ADHD with varying degrees of success. But, you're right, these are more atypical cases.
Over the past 2 years my moods have been more feelings of deadness, boredom, apathy, anhedonia, brain fog etc. There has been very little sadness or anxiety. In fact, I haven't felt much emotion at all.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 23, 2022, at 15:47:51
In reply to Re: Amur Corktree arrived, posted by Lamdage22 on July 23, 2022, at 12:59:56
Anything that enhances serotonin has just been blocking my ability to process any emotion. Also, it feels like my emotions have absolutely not depth. The effect of most SSRIs just feels superficial.
Linkadge
Posted by Jay2112 on July 23, 2022, at 19:05:18
In reply to Re: Amur Corktree arrived, posted by SLS on July 23, 2022, at 8:35:37
> > Why would certain MAO-B inhibitors feel different than others?
>
> That's a great question. The answer to that question relies on uncertainty I think we have seen enough counterintuitive responses to drugs on this board. Eventually, what we consider counterintuitive today will be easily explainable in the future as more information is gathered.
>
> In my estimation, a robust response to an MAOI depends the inhibition of MAO-A. The package label for EMSAM explains this explicitly. However, a MAO-B inhibitor called pargyline was used to treat depression for many years before it was withdrawn from market. Nothing was wrong with the drug other than its waning popularity.
>
>
> - ScotttScott, I think what is missing is that companies promote particular drugs as affecting everyone the same way. BUT, genetics makes that almost impossible. They don't take that into account. There are simple genetic tests that show which drugs we are likely to succeed on. I am hoping to get one of those tests done in the next year. Mind you, I have tried pretty much every psychiatric drug available in Canada, so I know which ones work better with me.
Just IMHO, YMMV, etc.
Jay
Posted by Jay2112 on July 23, 2022, at 21:03:40
In reply to Re: Amur Corktree arrived, posted by linkadge on July 23, 2022, at 15:47:51
> Anything that enhances serotonin has just been blocking my ability to process any emotion. Also, it feels like my emotions have absolutely not depth. The effect of most SSRIs just feels superficial.
>
> LinkadgeWell, you do have to remember that a) each serotonin receptor has different functions. The blockade and stimulation of 5ht2 receptors provides some very unique effects. b) MDMA mass releases serotonin, and intensify's feelings of love and happiness c) not all SRI's are created equal/the same. eg. Sertraline (Zoloft) works quite strongly on dopamine. The only real 'pure' SRI's are citalopram/escitalopram. d) micro-dosing??
Just some thoughts....
Jay
Posted by linkadge on July 24, 2022, at 13:54:33
In reply to Re: Amur Corktree arrived » linkadge, posted by Jay2112 on July 23, 2022, at 21:03:40
There is some emerging evidence too that the effect of SSRIs has nothing to do with serotonin at all.
Linkadge
Posted by Lamdage22 on July 24, 2022, at 14:01:08
In reply to Re: Amur Corktree arrived, posted by linkadge on July 24, 2022, at 13:54:33
> There is some emerging evidence too that the effect of SSRIs has nothing to do with serotonin at all.
>
> LinkadgeIf that is true I am begging researchers to remove the Serotonin effect. The sexual sides are unacceptable.
Posted by Jay2112 on July 24, 2022, at 23:35:02
In reply to Re: Amur Corktree arrived, posted by linkadge on July 24, 2022, at 13:54:33
> There is some emerging evidence too that the effect of SSRIs has nothing to do with serotonin at all.
>
> LinkadgeHmmm...WoW....that is quite interesting! Could you elaborate?
Thanks,
Jay
Posted by Jay2112 on July 24, 2022, at 23:49:53
In reply to Re: Amur Corktree arrived, posted by SLS on July 23, 2022, at 8:35:37
> > Why would certain MAO-B inhibitors feel different than others?
>
> That's a great question. The answer to that question relies on uncertainty I think we have seen enough counterintuitive responses to drugs on this board. Eventually, what we consider counterintuitive today will be easily explainable in the future as more information is gathered.
>
> In my estimation, a robust response to an MAOI depends the inhibition of MAO-A. The package label for EMSAM explains this explicitly. However, a MAO-B inhibitor called pargyline was used to treat depression for many years before it was withdrawn from market. Nothing was wrong with the drug other than its waning popularity.
>
>
> - ScotttHi Scott,
Is pargyline not similar to that drug you said was the worlds 'best' antidepressant? It had a huge success rate, but was taken off the market due to cardiac issues?
Jay
Posted by linkadge on July 25, 2022, at 10:09:50
In reply to Re: Amur Corktree arrived » linkadge, posted by Jay2112 on July 24, 2022, at 23:35:02
A recent theory has to do with G proteins. It's technical, and well above my pay grade but a brief summary....
A fairly recent study has suggested that virtually all antidepressants have been shown to push g proteins out of lipid rafts, where they are more likely to activate adenylyl cyclase. They do this in a serotonin independent manner. With slow acting antidepressants, this process takes about 2-4 weeks (mirroring the lag time for antidepressant response). Interestingly, rapid acting antidepressants like ketamine, achieve this effect within a single dose. Depressed patients have been shown to have a higher proportion of their g proteins located inside lipid rafts.
They can genetically engineer mice to have virtually no serotonin transporters. Yet, the mice still have a behavioural response to SSRIs comparable in magnitude to 'normal' mice.
https://neurosciencenews.com/ketamine-lasting-depression-9423/
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on July 25, 2022, at 10:20:30
In reply to Re: Amur Corktree arrived » SLS, posted by Jay2112 on July 24, 2022, at 23:49:53
I think he was referring to clorgyline which was an MAOI / imidazoline receptor agonist.
Linkadge
Posted by PeterMartin on July 25, 2022, at 11:50:57
In reply to Re: Amur Corktree arrived, posted by Lamdage22 on July 24, 2022, at 14:01:08
Have you tried anti-histamines for long covid (if you feel that's potentially your issue?) There's a large FB group and also reddit forum for LC. People in those seem to get relief w/ Famotidine (OTC Pepcid) and other histamine blockers.
Posted by undopaminergic on July 26, 2022, at 3:15:40
In reply to Re: Amur Corktree arrived, posted by PeterMartin on July 25, 2022, at 11:50:57
> Have you tried anti-histamines for long covid (if you feel that's potentially your issue?) There's a large FB group and also reddit forum for LC. People in those seem to get relief w/ Famotidine (OTC Pepcid) and other histamine blockers.
>
>Famotidine is a histamine *H2* receptor antagonist, so it is different from the usual (H1 receptor) antihistamines like doxepin.
-undopaminergic
Posted by linkadge on July 26, 2022, at 7:06:26
In reply to Re: Amur Corktree arrived, posted by undopaminergic on July 26, 2022, at 3:15:40
I have not tried antihistamines (although I do take mirtazapine). I'm not 100% sure it is long COVID. The fatigue is the predominant symptom. Also, I am in a mood-haze. I don't feel bad per-se, but I don't feel much of anything. It could just be that my depressison is morphing.
Linkadge
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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