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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by alexandra_k on January 12, 2014, at 19:23:58
In reply to Re: Conversion Hysteria (or whatever they call it now), posted by jono_in_adelaide on January 12, 2014, at 17:12:30
> I guess my hope is/was that if he could be convinced that doesnt have an organic disease, and started to work hard with a psychiatrist, he might eventually get to the bottom of why he is like this, and begin t live the life ha has wasted for the past 2 decades - maybe thats a forlorn hope?
I guess the first step is for one or the other (or probably both) of them to take that step to see a psychiatrist.
The thing is... I'd be fairly sure (almost certain) that this would have been something that a neurologist (at the very least) would have suggested and tried to encourage them to do.
Depending on how well you know them etc etc... You probably could introduce the idea subtly... Something about how it must be really distressing to be so unwell. How sometimes talking to a psychiatrist (or a psychologist or whatever) can help.
This isn't to suggest that the cause of the physical problem is psychiatric, you see, but rather to suggest that some suffering could be alleviated by talking to someone...
But then the issue becomes... Is this true? Sometimes psychiatrists / psychologists / whatever can indeed be helpful. But really, in my own personal experience, the significant majority are actually harmful. The opposite of helpful. So... Really... Without being able to reccommend a particular person who might actually be helpful for one or the other or both of them to talk to...
It is unclear to me how helpful the suggestion would be.
It seems to me.
fwiw.
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on January 12, 2014, at 21:13:55
In reply to Re: Conversion Hysteria (or whatever they call it now), posted by alexandra_k on January 12, 2014, at 19:23:58
Oh, yes, all of the 5 neuros have ended up suggesting he seeks psychatric treatment - thats generaly when he leaves, finds a new one, and starts another round of CT's, MRI's, nerve conduction studys, complete blood pictures etc
I was thinking that if i could introduct the idea of conversion hysteria, and that he and/or his wife could both read it, and se how closely it fits him, it might give them more reason to actualy see a psychiatrist and stick with him, and work hard at what he suggests.
I dont hold out much hope - I think he has spend so long in the role of an invalid, using this non existant illness as an excuse for his every failiure in life, that the pattern would be extremely hard to break.
I think a good start would be some tought love - sit him in a chair, with food and water on the other side of the room, alone, and instead of his wife pushing him to the table in a wheelchair, let him get hungry enough that he gets there under his own locomotion.
I should porbably just give up, but he's my oldest friend, and its damned hard to see him like this
Posted by Phillipa on January 12, 2014, at 21:41:35
In reply to Re: Conversion Hysteria (or whatever they call it now), posted by SLS on January 12, 2014, at 12:56:06
Scott I do hope he's doing well now. We used to write. Jay if you are lurking please reply. Phillipa
Posted by alexandra_k on January 13, 2014, at 4:12:01
In reply to Re: Conversion Hysteria (or whatever they call it now), posted by jono_in_adelaide on January 12, 2014, at 21:13:55
I don't know if a good talking to ever managed to cure a case of conversion hysteria any more than it ever managed to cure a case of depression...
It is possible that the issue lies more with her than with him, too.
I don't know... If I had a friend in this sort of a position I guess I'd just try and be a friend to them as best I can. Let them know I'm there if they want to talk or whatever. I don't know.
Posted by SLS on January 13, 2014, at 5:27:00
In reply to Conversion Hysteria (or whatever they call it now), posted by jono_in_adelaide on January 12, 2014, at 4:18:43
It is probably best to remove the word "hysteria"? It is too sexist. If one adheres to DSM IV nomenclature, "conversion disorder" is used to describe this. I understand that the DSM V has removed this diagnosis and those of the other somatoform disorders in favor of "Somatic Symptom Disorder" (SSD)
Hypochondriasis?
It is probably best to suggest that you are concerned that your friend might have a "somatoform disorder" of some sort. Conversion disorder is a type of somatoform disorder which presents as a loss of one or more senses (blindness, hearing loss, numbness, etc.), and even paralysis. I don't know much about the etiology of somatization except that it is very real to the sufferer. I wouldn't be surprised if it is found that the origin of the somatic sensations is actually a brain dysfunction that develops over time as a function of psychological or physical stress.
I agree with Alexandra_K's suggestion that someone with a somatoform disorder be given unconditional emotional support. Sometimes, the most that can be done is to have a professional help the patient to acknowledge and manage symptoms.
- Scott
Posted by alexandra_k on January 13, 2014, at 14:00:51
In reply to Re: Conversion Hysteria (or whatever they call it now) » jono_in_adelaide, posted by SLS on January 13, 2014, at 5:27:00
sometimes religion works. miracle cures and all that.
Posted by HomelyCygnet on January 13, 2014, at 14:10:21
In reply to Re: Conversion Hysteria (or whatever they call it now), posted by jono_in_adelaide on January 12, 2014, at 21:13:55
Sounds like SLS. Do you think if they took away his "disability" and subsidised apt he would get off his butt and get a job?
Actually it sounds like Alex too. Would tough love work for her?
I suppose it's partly society's fault but it's sad to see these two settle for a life as parasite.
>
> I dont hold out much hope - I think he has spend so long in the role of an invalid, using this non existant illness as an excuse for his every failiure in life, that the pattern would be extremely hard to break.
>
> I think a good start would be some tought love - sit him in a chair, with food and water on the other side of the room, alone, and instead of his wife pushing him to the table in a wheelchair, let him get hungry enough that he gets there under his own locomotion.
>
> I should porbably just give up, but he's my oldest friend, and its damned hard to see him like this
Posted by SLS on January 13, 2014, at 15:10:40
In reply to Re: Conversion Hysteria (or whatever they call it now), posted by HomelyCygnet on January 13, 2014, at 14:10:21
> Sounds like SLS. Do you think if they took away his "disability" and subsidised apt he would get off his butt and get a job?
> Actually it sounds like Alex too. Would tough love work for her?
> I suppose it's partly society's fault but it's sad to see these two settle for a life as parasite.
I'm sorry, HomelyCygnet. I don't know how do react to these comments in words, as I am conflicted. You are becoming a very pitiable character. Your words betray your increasing mental instability. Some would call it a meltdown. Others would call it decompensation. I don't know what to call it. How do you refer to your sickness? It would help people to understand the pathology that impels you to say such things.
You really do need to be here... And you are! Yay! :-)
How can the Psycho-Babble community help you to feel better about yourself?
- Scott
Posted by HomelyCygnet on January 13, 2014, at 15:15:24
In reply to Re: Conversion Hysteria (or whatever they call it now) » HomelyCygnet, posted by SLS on January 13, 2014, at 15:10:40
Your new personality is funnier that the last one. It's sad that you see all the pain and passion in the world as illness. I don't like you but I pity you.
Posted by SLS on January 13, 2014, at 15:41:24
In reply to LOL Scottie I predicted that response! » SLS, posted by HomelyCygnet on January 13, 2014, at 15:15:24
Posted by SLS on January 13, 2014, at 16:04:44
In reply to Re: Conversion Hysteria (or whatever they call it now) » HomelyCygnet, posted by SLS on January 13, 2014, at 15:10:40
> > Sounds like SLS.
"You are becoming a very pitiable character."
This is an uncivil statement, and I apologize for writing it.
And I'm not just saying that.
- Scott
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on January 13, 2014, at 16:51:22
In reply to Re: Conversion Hysteria (or whatever they call it now), posted by SLS on January 13, 2014, at 16:04:44
Thanks for the input guys!
Posted by Phillipa on January 13, 2014, at 21:18:31
In reply to Re: Conversion Hysteria (or whatever they call it now), posted by jono_in_adelaide on January 13, 2014, at 16:51:22
Jono is it possible that my loss of taste & smell could be conversion disorder too? Phillipa
Posted by HomelyCygnet on January 14, 2014, at 10:22:09
In reply to Re: Conversion Hysteria (or whatever they call it now) » jono_in_adelaide, posted by Phillipa on January 13, 2014, at 21:18:31
> Jono is it possible that my loss of taste & smell could be conversion disorder too? Phillipa
Have you ever tried hypnosis for your loss of taste and smell? They used that for conversion disorders back in the 19th century. I'd say the odds were against it tho.
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on January 15, 2014, at 0:21:35
In reply to Re: Conversion Hysteria (or whatever they call it now) » Phillipa, posted by HomelyCygnet on January 14, 2014, at 10:22:09
Phillipa, I dont think so, you seem to have way too much insignt into your illness for it to be that
Have you ever tried a course of zinc supplements (Twinlab make a good zinc picolinate supplement that sells for less than $10 for 100 on Vitacost)
I know its a long shot, but it might be worth a try
Posted by Phillipa on January 15, 2014, at 21:11:03
In reply to Re: Conversion Hysteria (or whatever they call it now), posted by jono_in_adelaide on January 15, 2014, at 0:21:35
Jono that is what my dentist said. Evidently now there are a form of Dentists that can also deal with this which is new. Dentist said l00mg twice a day? Would you? Phillipa
Posted by alexandra_k on January 16, 2014, at 13:10:14
In reply to Re: Conversion Hysteria (or whatever they call it now), posted by HomelyCygnet on January 13, 2014, at 14:10:21
a phrase comes to mind... 'with friends like these - who needs enemies'. this is what i find myself thinking a lot, when i read your posts. i think it is a bit of a shame because i find you to be articulate and funny... but when i open your posts i never know whether i'm going to find the articulate witty humor or whether i'm going to find something that - when i'm feeling a little bit fragile - leaves me feeling worse.
here is something that is in my power to choose: i'm not going to read your posts for one week.
> Sounds like SLS. Do you think if they took away his "disability" and subsidised apt he would get off his butt and get a job?
>
> Actually it sounds like Alex too. Would tough love work for her?
>
> I suppose it's partly society's fault but it's sad to see these two settle for a life as parasite.
>
>
>
> >
> > I dont hold out much hope - I think he has spend so long in the role of an invalid, using this non existant illness as an excuse for his every failiure in life, that the pattern would be extremely hard to break.
> >
> > I think a good start would be some tought love - sit him in a chair, with food and water on the other side of the room, alone, and instead of his wife pushing him to the table in a wheelchair, let him get hungry enough that he gets there under his own locomotion.
> >
> > I should porbably just give up, but he's my oldest friend, and its damned hard to see him like this
>
>
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on January 16, 2014, at 21:04:08
In reply to Re: with friends like these... » HomelyCygnet, posted by alexandra_k on January 16, 2014, at 13:10:14
Funnily enough, there was quite a long report about conversion disorder on abc radio (our version of npr) yesterday - very interesting
I'll wait and see how my friend does with his latest neuro - if it turns out to be another dead end, I'll throw caution to the wind and suggest he sees a psychiatrist and discusses conversion with them
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 16, 2014, at 23:45:32
In reply to LOL Scottie I predicted that response! » SLS, posted by HomelyCygnet on January 13, 2014, at 15:15:24
> Scottie
Please be sensitive to the feelings of others even if yours are hurt.
More information about posting policies is in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 16, 2014, at 23:45:57
In reply to Re: Conversion Hysteria (or whatever they call it now), posted by SLS on January 13, 2014, at 16:04:44
Posted by HomelyCygnet on January 17, 2014, at 8:08:41
In reply to Re: please be sensitive » HomelyCygnet, posted by Dr. Bob on January 16, 2014, at 23:45:32
Posted by phidippus on January 18, 2014, at 2:30:41
In reply to Conversion Hysteria (or whatever they call it now), posted by jono_in_adelaide on January 12, 2014, at 4:18:43
Somatization disorder (also Briquet's syndrome or hysteria) is a somatoform disorder characterized by recurring, multiple, and current, clinically significant complaints about somatic symptoms. Symptoms often include reports of pain, gastrointestinal distress, sexual problems, and pseudoneurological symptoms such as amnesia or breathing difficulties. Somatization disorder can also occur during the course of, or be associated with, a medical condition. Patients with somatization disorder also show high levels of worry, anxiety, and increased reactions in response to physical symptoms.[1] Individuals with somatization disorder typically visit many doctors in pursuit of effective treatment. Somatization disorder also causes challenge and burden on the life of the caregivers or significant others of the patient. - wikipedia
I have suffered from this. In 2006 I spent a lot of time in the ER due to phantom symptoms. In 2007 I became convinced I had epilepsy and even had a psychogenic seizure. I also saw many doctors about my supposed epilepsy and had many tests done. Then one day I just snapped out of it.
Eric
Posted by vincent_QC on January 29, 2014, at 18:19:05
In reply to Re: Conversion Hysteria (or whatever they call it now) » jono_in_adelaide, posted by phidippus on January 18, 2014, at 2:30:41
> Somatization disorder (also Briquet's syndrome or hysteria) is a somatoform disorder characterized by recurring, multiple, and current, clinically significant complaints about somatic symptoms. Symptoms often include reports of pain, gastrointestinal distress, sexual problems, and pseudoneurological symptoms such as amnesia or breathing difficulties. Somatization disorder can also occur during the course of, or be associated with, a medical condition. Patients with somatization disorder also show high levels of worry, anxiety, and increased reactions in response to physical symptoms.[1] Individuals with somatization disorder typically visit many doctors in pursuit of effective treatment. Somatization disorder also causes challenge and burden on the life of the caregivers or significant others of the patient. - wikipedia
>
> I have suffered from this. In 2006 I spent a lot of time in the ER due to phantom symptoms. In 2007 I became convinced I had epilepsy and even had a psychogenic seizure. I also saw many doctors about my supposed epilepsy and had many tests done. Then one day I just snapped out of it.
>
> EricActually, somatisation disorder most of the time will show up when severe anxiety disorders are not under control by meds, therapy or whatever...
I have that disorder, a new psychiatrist doc diagnostic me with severe anxiety (panic with agoraphobia, social phobia, GAD and somatisation disorder).
I have a list of physical symptoms that I feel and have everyday. My symptoms are mainly cardiovascular (unstable blood pressure, tachycardia, chest pain, numbness of the left arm, palpitations, low exercise tolerance), my world turn around my cardiovascular symptoms, I can't exercise, my heart is pounding in my chest all the time, I have very low energy and just take a shower is the best I can do. I also have chronic pain, facial pain, jaw pain, teeth pain, chronic headache who is apparently linked to TMJ disorder... I also have high level of apprehension, phobias of any kind, incredible adrenaline surge who happen out of the blue 5-10 times a day.
I also have intestinal problems as well. I had 2 complete intrstinal obstructions and had 3 surgeries to repair them and had enteral feeding for some time because I wasn't able to eat and was in a severe malnutrition state. I still have intestinal problems mainly constipation, IBS pain, can't have a normal bowel movement and always need a huge amount of glycerin suppositories and double dose of lactulose to be able to pass stools. My 2 biggest problems are my heart and my intestine.
I don't work since 2007. And trust me, I don't think that someone with a REAL somatisation disorder will fake all his physical symptoms, they are real. Also I don't think a person with somatisation will enjoy to be sick all the time and feel sick and not have a normal life just on purpose and play the role of someone who is sick!!! I can't believe someone can even think that I like to feel sick all the time, that I like to stay home, that I like to have agoraphobia and he stuck in my house 24 h a day, that I can't drive anymore or even go in car as a passenger because I have severe panic attacks who happen all the time. I can't believe that some people will think that I prefer to stay at home and not have to work!
The facts are that before I get sick, I had a work, I was studying very hard at the university and I had dreams for my futur and dreams about my futur work!
Now I can't even stay alone at home because I fear that with all my physical symptoms I will die! I'm lucky cause I have a good family and stay at my parents place so I'm not alone often but I so my best to not be a pain in the ass for my parents! Of course they help me but I don't take my symptoms to have more attention and so nothing and stay sit on my butt and do nothing all the time!
I did almost all the kind of therapy in the world to try to feel better, just try the hypnotherapy who did nothing to help, had see around 5 psychologist each week in the last 8 years and so the conventional exposure therapy and cognitive therapy with no improve, I try so many meds and almost die because of some of them especially the Parnate and I'm now intolerant to all the meds! And it's not psychological, I have side effects from a dose of 1 mg of Paxil... It's not all in my head! The side effects are real... And trust me, being rushed to the ER with a pulse rate of 240 because of a small dose of Lexapro is not funny and I'm not surprise that I'm scare now to take meds... Even meds who are not used for psych problems!
For now I'm on a high dose of Klonopin daily, 7 mg, and I'm addicted... We slowly reduce my dose and will hope that I will be able to reduce with the help of the Valium... I also take a beta blocker to reduce the heart rate, 75 mg of Metoprolol a day. I don't tolerate the other meds...
I will try a new form of therapy next week, EMDR therapy... I have high hope with that one. My Doc suggest it to me so I wi try it.
For now, I don't have a regular PDoc. The one I had when the intestinal obstructions occur was saying that my intestine pain was a in my head and when my intestine block, I was at the psych hospital as an inpatient and that PDoc leave me in my bedroom with no tests or no pain meds to manage the pain for 24 hours, it's my mom who had to come to the psych hospital and call the ambulance to get me out of that psych hospital and had me transfert to a normal hospital where I had a ct scan and was sent to the surgery room in less than 1 hour after my admitting with a pounch of 5 liters of bile inside my bile duck who was about to explode inside me and will probably kill me... I never return to see that PDoc and he also wrote a final report 3 months after it happen and sent it to my family Doc and my family Doc give it to me. That medical report was saying that I had a personality disorder and that I had no anxiety at all and that it was all the somatisation disorder who was making me feel like this. That I was seeking attention from people and was enjoying to play my role of the sick guy!!! That my intestinal obstruction happen because I wanted it to happen! That when it happen I was exaggerating the symptoms and make it worse! Anyway, I never return to see him and I can't see a new one or have a regular one cause where I live we have a public health system and all the PDoc in my city practice at the same place so if I return there, they will give to me a new PDoc but my medical folder will follow me so I will be treat like I'm not having anxiety but personality disorder and that's not the good diagnostic! I was able to see a new PDoc one time, one who practice in another city, but sadly I can't return to see him cause I need to be a resident of that city to be allowed to see him...that PDoc make a new diagnostic and I have severe anxiety and somatisation but no personality disorder... I was lucky to see him even if that didn't help me to find a new solution... My family doc had to call him to ask if he wanted to see me 1 time...
Well... Somatisation disorder is hard to treat... It's not impossible and I do hope I will feel better soon... I don't ask to feel 100 normal but at least to be able to have a life, to work, continu to study and have a life!!!
Posted by phidippus on January 30, 2014, at 14:45:51
In reply to Re: Conversion Hysteria (or whatever they call it now) » phidippus, posted by vincent_QC on January 29, 2014, at 18:19:05
Read about Conversion Disorder:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2416752/
Erio
Posted by vincent_QC on January 30, 2014, at 17:06:38
In reply to Re: Conversion Hysteria (or whatever they call it now) » vincent_QC, posted by phidippus on January 30, 2014, at 14:45:51
> Read about Conversion Disorder:
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2416752/
>
> ErioI guess it's Eric not Erio... lol
I did read that a long time ago. I must say that conversion hysteria was the name of give to somatization disorder before. Now it's call somatization disorder. In my case, the last PDoc I saw for an evaluation had difficulty to make the diagnostic of somatization because normally the physical symptoms begin before 30 years old... in my case I start having chronic physical symptoms only at 34 years old...
I like when they point out some clinical différences between conversion and other psychological illiness:
"According to DSM-IV, conversion symptoms must be of clinical significance to the patient, or of social or occupational consequence. While for some patients the benefits of the sick role may result in perceived significant gain (Ron 2001), the associated handicaps are often great (Vuilleumier et al 2001). Factitious disorder (the conscious production of symptoms in pursuit of medical attention) or malingering (the conscious production of symptoms and signs for financial or material gain) are distinct from conversion disorder. Stone et al (2002) suggest that physicians have a tendency to overdiagnose feigning of symptoms: in clinical practice the distinction between conversion and factitious disorders can only be considered definitive if corroborated by covert surveillance or confession.
An apparent lack of distress in the face of unpleasant symptoms or even disability la belle indifference is classically associated with conversion symptoms. This is held to be a useful diagnostic sign, but is not a common feature, and the majority of patients with conversion symptoms are in fact distressed by them (Stone et al 2002).
""I agree that it can be difficult for a PDoc to make the good diagnostic. It's so easy and common for any kind of Doctor to not find a cause to some symptoms and say that it's only in "your head" and that it's anxiety related, especially when you are diagnosticed with severe anxiety disorders...
The main problem here is that in case of somatisation disorder, the symptoms are real, the pain is real, some symptoms start after a traumatism like a major surgerie and the sick role to gain attention or even not have to work is not a feature of the somatisation disorder and I do know that anxiety disorders are most of the time the main culprit of the somatisation...Every single physical sensations become a source of worry...and new fears appear and the more fears and worries and the more anxiety you live...
I do know that the another form of that disorder exist and it's call somatoform disorder. It's different from the somatization disorder in some ways... A somatoform disorder is a mental disorder characterized by symptoms that suggest physical illness or injury or symptoms that cannot be explained fully by a general medical condition or by the direct effect of a substance, and are not attributable to another mental disorder (e.g., panic disorder). (It's from wikipedia..).
That's also how what my last PDoc who redo my evaluation and rule out my new diagnostic explain it to me. The main difference is that the symptoms are not caused by the anxiety...
In my case, i'm not faking my symptoms. Some of my chronic symptoms are related to some real diseases or surgeries I had who leave me very weak. The symptoms tend to be worse and worse over time. Nww physical symptoms appear once in a while and when they start to happen, they happen more and more and become chronic...
Of course, I saw a lot of doctors over the years... some of them did find abnormal things in my body who can explain some symptoms... some chronic symptoms can't be explain. In my case, anxiety came first and anxiety is the main problem... and I did had a oriif of that when in 2009 I was on the Paxil for the panic disorder and that I was free of all my anxiety after 1 1/2 month on the Paxil... I had no worry and I was mostly free of physical symptoms like the headache... or jaw pain and I wasnt worried about my heart at all... but I had to stop taking it for a personnal problem that I will not write here... and the anxiety return first and then the physical chronic symptoms start after that...
Overall, I think it's not our job to diagnosticed or judge a patient mental health. We are here to help each other and saying that the guy in the Wheel chair is faking is symptoms to have more attention and because he don't want to work is not our buisness!!!
When different kind of therapy and meds fails to help, it's a very hard mental disease to treat and get Under control.
I will give anything I have to be normal again, to live only 1 day without all that pain and all those symptoms and also all that creppy anxiety, those irrational phobias and that high level of apprehensions!!!
Vincent
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