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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sk85 on December 25, 2013, at 16:11:53
Dear all,
I'm writing to you as on of the most sensitive and experienced minds in psychoactive medicines. I have recently made a bold decision do add onto my regular 50 mg Zoloft the herbal supplement rhodiola rosea. I'm aware of the potential dangers of combining an SSRI with potential MAOI (although rhodiola's MAOI potency is still a matter of debate).
My rationale was that as I have grown relatively strongly accoustemed to sertraline's SSRI effects over the past 5 months, the dangers of serotonin syndrome would not be so apt to manifest with this add-on.
The results are quite surprising for me, although, I am far from being able to categorize this as merely "positive" or "negative", and my trial is ongoing.
But. I have definately noticed a shift in cognition. As my background diganosis has mostly been OCD/depression with slight bipolar tendencies, I have mostly always been a bit out of tune with the "common" every day problems people have. Now, all of the sudden I seem to have gained an interesting bit of social cognition and sensitivity to other people's emotions (that usually reached me with rather vague impression). I'm more emotional, but in a good way (depression usully ends with flatness and this seems to be residing).
On the balancing side, rhodiola add-on has made me a bit excessively ruminating and maybe more easily sensitive to other people's remarks. I'm also experiencing a mild hypomanic properties (mind seems to come up with ingenious solutions and is working 95% capacity...which for me can be warning sides if this does nót level out).
We'll see. But all in all I find the combination to have some very interesting dynamics. And I will continue to see how all of this levels out in the 3 week period to come (rhodiola does seem to have some startup period so some of the changes might be just a temporary glitches).
Has anyone else experimented with this combination and what has been your results?
How would this combination have a net effect on neurotransmission?
All ideas are welcome.BEst,
-ikaros
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 27, 2013, at 2:25:41
In reply to Interesting results from sertraline+rhodiola, posted by sk85 on December 25, 2013, at 16:11:53
Posted by sk85 on December 27, 2013, at 12:09:21
In reply to Interesting results from sertraline+rhodiola, posted by sk85 on December 25, 2013, at 16:11:53
Well one week in and I'm not dead yet. So no serotonin syndrome (at least in my case), but I have been taking sertraline for 6 months prior to taking rhodiola. There is definitely help with energy, but also some anxiety and excessive thinking (although manageable). I'm pretty sure there would be (major?) side-effects if one has just started taking an SSRI and would then do this as an add-on. At the moment, though, the benefits seem to outweigh the negatives, and I will continue taking it.
Posted by sk85 on December 27, 2013, at 12:35:31
In reply to Re: Interesting results from sertraline+rhodiola, posted by sk85 on December 27, 2013, at 12:09:21
Forgot to mention that OCD is worse than before, but I had that same effect with clomipramine aswell when starting. It's probably dopamine related.
Posted by sk85 on December 28, 2013, at 7:04:21
In reply to Re: Interesting results from sertraline+rhodiola, posted by sk85 on December 27, 2013, at 12:35:31
I'm certainly noting a significant effect in social cognition. The need for interaction with others has significantly increased for me. However, reading my first post the first few days must've been bordering on hypomania :)
Posted by sk85 on December 30, 2013, at 12:53:47
In reply to Interesting results from sertraline+rhodiola, posted by sk85 on December 25, 2013, at 16:11:53
No one has tried this approach before or heard about this?
Posted by sigismund on December 30, 2013, at 15:37:50
In reply to Really no coments?, posted by sk85 on December 30, 2013, at 12:53:47
I have never taken sertraline (or an SSRI) but have taken rhodiola often enough.
Unfortunately it is too long acting for me. I like the effect but it wrecks my fragile sleep. Last time I took 1 LEF rhodiola and my sleep was awful. So many of these things you CAN get are long acting.
Posted by GavinoFelix on January 3, 2014, at 11:10:51
In reply to Really no coments?, posted by sk85 on December 30, 2013, at 12:53:47
Yeah, I've never really gotten any sustained effect from rhodiola. I worked at a health food store for 4 years and had access to employee discounts for all different supplement companies . Basically I could get < or = wholesale pricing. I mainly stuck to Gaia and New Chapter products just due to the percieved reliability of their products.
I went through periods experimenting with dosages of up to 300mg b.i.d of each product (i forget the rosavin and salidroside percentages) for sustained stretches of time (let's say a month). Also, during this time, I was on 225mg venlafaxine. But yeah, nothing I could definitively say was not a placebo effect. It was about 3-4 years ago, so I don't remember all the specifics.
I remember finding out that UPenn was doing a clinical trial on rhodiola rosea (IIRC in Russia, muliple species of the plant are used in folk medicine). I actually just went address listed and just walked around the offices until I found the person conducting the study (yeah, I tend to be pretty terrible with maintaining 'adherence to socially acceptable behavior'). Whoever it was happened to be quite nice, and answered my questions regarding concentrations of active constituents and dosing protocols. Even when I followed those I didn't really notice too much of an effect (I think they were doing up to 300mg b.i.d.).
IMHO, herbal MAOIs really have little to do with the mega-monster non-selective and irreversible MAOIs like Parnate and Nardil. Many commonly consumed 'herbs' have MAOI properties - namely, coffee and tobacco - that have no dangerous interactions with Parnate, Nardil, etc.
Semper fi
Posted by Twinleaf on January 3, 2014, at 12:14:58
In reply to Re: Really no coments?, posted by GavinoFelix on January 3, 2014, at 11:10:51
I have found rhodiola helpful. I take the Gaia brand, 240 mg. twice daily, and feel that it helps to lower both anxiety and depression. I think it helps with sleep too, although I'm not sure as I take both doses fairly early in the day. Because I know my cortisol levels tend to be elevated, I've tried to zero in on things known to lower it - tianeptine, TMS, rhodiola, massage, meditation and psychotherapy with a focus on relatedness and attachment. On good days, I feel I have close to a 100% remission; on not so good days, about 75%.
Because of the central role stress hormones play in the changes in the hippocampus associated with reactive depression, it would be SO wonderful if we had a medication which safely and reliably lowered cortisol!
Posted by SLS on January 3, 2014, at 12:44:37
In reply to Cortisol, posted by Twinleaf on January 3, 2014, at 12:14:58
> I've tried to zero in on things known to lower it - tianeptine, TMS, rhodiola, massage, meditation and psychotherapy with a focus on relatedness and attachment.
Hey! You weren't supposed to give away the secret recipe!
Kudos to you for researching and experimenting to come up with a treatment regime that works so well for you. I have come across some interesting studies reporting the efficacy of rhodiola in treating mild to moderate depression.
Review of clinical studies:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21438645
Basic research:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19403286
- Scott
Posted by Twinleaf on January 3, 2014, at 13:56:55
In reply to Cortisol, posted by Twinleaf on January 3, 2014, at 12:14:58
Thanks Scott! Those articles are encouraging to scan.
When I first got depressed about 16 years ago, I read all I could find about it, and kept coming upon the central role cortisol played in causing abnormal changes in the hippocampus which are seen in depression. I have always been a bit surprised and disappointed that there is not more discussion of this connection here on Babble.
I am talking mainly about reactive depression caused by interpersonal loss and stress, such as I had (mother hospitalized for post-partum depression). I am not sure whether bipolar is different. I have a suspicion that it may not be; other than genetics possibly playing a larger role in bipolar, depression may be basically all one stress-related illness.
Posted by bleauberry on January 6, 2014, at 11:09:54
In reply to Interesting results from sertraline+rhodiola, posted by sk85 on December 25, 2013, at 16:11:53
I have used rhodiola for several years, and tried it many times before that. In my opinion it is one of the few miracle plants on earth and it is sad that Western medicine is generally not aware of it. It is popular around the world in treating a variety of different diseases and chronic conditions and has literally hundreds of scientific research on it.
Since one of the things it does is support dopamine, that goes well with zoloft. There is a book called Rhodiola Revolution. I haven't read it. The author and his wife, both psychiatrists in New York City, discovered it when their own treatments were failing to improve her Lyme symptoms which included depression and fatigue. They claim to now use rhodiola in clinical practice as add-on to meds and as monotherapy.
The plant has so many different mechanisms that impact the body positively in various ways.
It is a tricky herb though. It takes on different behaviors at different doses. Lower is usually more on the stimulating side, higher is usually more on the calming side. Though after a few weeks, all doses of any size are soothing to any of life's nervousness, almost like a shield against stress. The effect is dependent on the size of the dose, how long the person has been consuming it, and the person's own physiology. As with everything else, mileage varies. But it can vary more than usual with rhodiola because most people do not understand that it does different effects at different doses. And just because they get an immediate effect from it is deceptive, because the real healing rhodiola does takes months. It is easy for someone to become impatient or frustrated with dosing experiments and just give up on it, not realizing they gave up on one of the few things that actually stood a great chance of helping them a lot.
Anyway, I am a fan of rhodiola. I've tried various brands. In my opinion Jarrow was the best in terms of effect and appearance...it was the only one that was rose red color and not grayish red color. I take Thorne Research brand because it comes in 100mg caps and that is the dose I do best with. Most brands are in the 400mg range. I didn't like 400mg but I do like 100mg and in fact couldn't live without it. All the other brands were fair to ok, not great.
This is the end of the thread.
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