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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by SLS on November 10, 2012, at 8:31:49
In reply to Re: Depression is Infectious Inflammation » jono_in_adelaide, posted by Phil on November 10, 2012, at 8:00:30
> Lyme literate.
Thanks for the clarification, Phil.
My doctor would fit quite well into this category, but, at this point, he does not ascribe infection as the cause of most cases of psychiatric syndromes. Of course, his current opinion does not constitute proof.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on November 10, 2012, at 8:54:02
In reply to Re: Depression is Infectious Inflammation » Phil, posted by SLS on November 10, 2012, at 8:31:49
I had panic disorder more than 25 years before a blood test discovered that I had lyme's disease. For some reason a pdoc who was also an osteopath ran Western Blots on his patients. Me and one other guy turned up positive. His was a false positive and mine turned out to be the real deal. At the time ended up in the hospital with both rheumatologist and infection control doc trying to distinguish whether my outrageously high ANA titer also was either an autoimmune disease or lymes. I had spinal taps that were negative, MRI's of the brain. Then a pic line and rocephin IV given for lymes. Then two years three months on and three months off biaxin xl. That's why the infection control doc feels lost taste and smell the antibiotic. To this day I still test positive on Western Blot for 6-7 bands of the lymes disease. But since I don't have rheumatoid arthritis or the classic signs of long term lymes no antibiotics although I could have taken doxycycline. It's the IGG that remains high and from what I was told this can remain high for years. Lymes Literate Docs have been arrested and forced out of the state for giving antibiotics when none were needed hence contributing to the rise in treatment resistant bacteria.
I do believe that inflammation makes me feel worse as one time given 800mg of motrin for a dental problem the next day strangely felt better. But you can't take motrin at high doses either forever. End up with possible internal bleeding.
So if it's cytokines what are the options for lowering the levels? I do believe that inflammation worsens symptoms. Phillipa
Posted by Phil on November 10, 2012, at 9:00:10
In reply to Re: Depression is Infectious Inflammation » Phil, posted by SLS on November 10, 2012, at 8:31:49
I do hope that psychiatrists at least consider the possibility especially in the NE where Lyme is most widespread.
In 2006, Texas reported 29 cases..in 2008, 150. Whole continents appear to not have Lyme disease.Thanks, but I'll keep my meds and I assume antipsychiatry warriors will keep their anger. All of the 'psychiatry sucks' spewing forth from them due to a tick bite they got. Maybe I should let them know. Nah.....
Posted by Jeroen on November 10, 2012, at 11:04:18
In reply to Depression is Infectious Inflammation, posted by bleauberry on November 10, 2012, at 5:35:08
hey bleauberry
how are you doin, trying to find a shrink who let me try minocycline
Posted by SLS on November 10, 2012, at 12:44:58
In reply to Re: Depression is Infectious Inflammation » SLS, posted by Phil on November 10, 2012, at 9:00:10
> I do hope that psychiatrists at least consider the possibility especially in the NE where Lyme is most widespread.
> In 2006, Texas reported 29 cases..in 2008, 150. Whole continents appear to not have Lyme disease.
>
> Thanks, but I'll keep my meds and I assume antipsychiatry warriors will keep their anger. All of the 'psychiatry sucks' spewing forth from them due to a tick bite they got. Maybe I should let them know. Nah.....It's like democracy. Democracy is the worst form of government... except for all the others.
I don't dispute that modern psychiatry as practiced in the West is largely primitive compared to most other fields of medicine. However, the brain is the most complex organ of the body, and it is not well explored. In my mind, I see psychiatry as doing the best it can with the limited amount of understanding it must work with. I don't see conspiracy and collusion on the part of all of psychiatry as it progresses in the discovery process. I believe that there are a lot of impassioned people with good hearts involved in the advancement of psychiatry, both as researchers and clinicians. There is actually an accumulating wealth of data arising from research that represent pieces of the puzzle, but very little understanding as to how it all fits together.
For the most part, the psychotropic drugs currently available are rather blunt instruments. Perhaps there is a place for gene therapy or the manipulation of gene activity in psychiatry. I would not exclude neuromodulatory pharmacotherapy as a treatment. However, there is much to be learned about the physiology of mental illness and what biological targets to aim at.
- Scott
Posted by bleauberry on November 10, 2012, at 16:01:33
In reply to to bleauberry, posted by Jeroen on November 10, 2012, at 11:04:18
> hey bleauberry
>
> how are you doin, trying to find a shrink who let me try minocyclineNot doing too bad. Thankful for progress made. I take a few supplements and herbs, 1 or 2 ABX on a pulsing strategy, and 18mg of Savella.
There is a potent antibiotic, antifungal, antiviral, antiparasite, antiworm substance you can get without a doctor. Garlic. When it is raw, not cooked, garlic is one of the most potent antimicrobials on the planet. Crush a clove, cut it up, whatever, and take it all near the end of a meal. It is also good to help mildly to remove toxic accumulation of many kinds. I've tried high dose fresh garlic before multiple times and I can definitely confirm it is a potent antibiotic. It is used by some LLMDs and patients in the treatment of Lyme disease. The problem of course is the odor. But at a lower dosage, where odor is not too bad, even that small amount can do a lot of stuff.
For the inflammation, the kitchen spice tumeric/curcumin. Ginger tea or ginger in food also helpful. Cinnamon. All of these, at higher doses than used in meals, have an array of mechanisms that help fight and reverse disease of many kinds, in this case focusing on infection and inflammation. I'm just trying to think of things easy to get that do not involve a prescription or going to a specialty store.
Posted by bleauberry on November 10, 2012, at 16:07:33
In reply to Re: Depression is Infectious Inflammation » bleauberry, posted by SLS on November 10, 2012, at 7:28:57
Hi Scott, I don't think there would be much on the web about this topic. I don't know that much about it other than I have experienced it. I'm not easily impressed but this MD impressed me and I was just sharing what he said. I think there are multiple other causes such as heavy metal accumulation, other toxic insults, genetic flaw, blood flow, diet, hormonal dysfunction, I mean, you know. I think maybe the common denominator with almost all of them is the inflammation.
Posted by SLS on November 10, 2012, at 22:37:59
In reply to Re: Depression is Infectious Inflammation » SLS, posted by bleauberry on November 10, 2012, at 16:07:33
> Hi Scott, I don't think there would be much on the web about this topic. I don't know that much about it other than I have experienced it. I'm not easily impressed but this MD impressed me and I was just sharing what he said. I think there are multiple other causes such as heavy metal accumulation, other toxic insults, genetic flaw, blood flow, diet, hormonal dysfunction, I mean, you know. I think maybe the common denominator with almost all of them is the inflammation.
Inflammation is a common reaction (denominator) in a great many human injuries and disorders. That doesn't mean that inflammation is the cause of them. When you accidentally hit your finger with a hammer, and the finger becomes inflamed, you don't blame the finger. Inflammation is associated with major depressive disorder, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, Alzheimer's, and Parkinson's. Is inflammation the cause of these illnesses or is it the result? Sometimes, it is both at the same time. This occurs when a positive feedback loop is created, as is the case with osteoarthritis.
I came across the following article that represents an example of what you are saying. It proposes a role for a microbial pathogen in the production of suicidality via inflammation occurring in the brain.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120816170400.htm
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on November 10, 2012, at 23:47:51
In reply to Re: Depression is Infectious Inflammation » bleauberry, posted by SLS on November 10, 2012, at 22:37:59
Seems most of autoimmune disorders cause mental disorders or the disorders are a symtom of the illness. Even thyroid illness has depression as an effect. Phillipa
Posted by brynb on November 10, 2012, at 23:51:14
In reply to Depression is Infectious Inflammation, posted by bleauberry on November 10, 2012, at 5:35:08
Hi bleauberry,
The inflammation theory certainly makes sense, and I'm sure it's valid in some cases (yours is clear), but I can't see it as the main offender for all.
A few people on the board have been doing well by adding Minocycline to their med regimens, though its positive effects are no doubt due to more than just its anti-inflammatory properties.
I suffer from chronic asthma and allergies, and have read many articles linking depression and allergies. I take antibiotics a lot throughout the year (especially during the cold months) as I'm prone to bronchitis and sinusitis. My question is, how do you know which antibiotic is the right one to use? Do you actually feel that the antidepressant(s) treats your depressive symptoms by treating the systemic infection/disease you're suffering from?
It sounds like you've found a great doc. That's great. I hope you continue to do well.
-b
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on November 11, 2012, at 3:18:53
In reply to Re: Depression is Infectious Inflammation » bleauberry, posted by brynb on November 10, 2012, at 23:51:14
How does your LLMD explain the existance of psychiatric illness in places where there is no lymes disease (sweden, England, Australia)
Posted by SLS on November 11, 2012, at 7:02:12
In reply to Re: Depression is Infectious Inflammation » bleauberry, posted by SLS on November 10, 2012, at 22:37:59
Sorry about the poor proofreading.
I meant to say:
"Inflammation is a common reaction (denominator) in a great many human injuries and disorders. That doesn't mean that infection is the cause of them."Psychosocial stress can provoke inflammation. One pathway by which this can occur involves the neurotoxicity produced by glutamatergic hyperactivity (immunoexcitotoxicity). Anxiety is an example of this. Infection has not been implicated in this process as far as I know. Of course, this does not preclude infection from making things worse or leaving one more vulnerable to depressive reactions.
I tend to think that inflammation is the consequence of major depressive disorder (MDD) rather than its cause. The same is probably true of bipolar disorder (BD). Perhaps there is a positive feedback loop involved. Depression would produce inflammation which would worsen depression which would increase inflammation, etc. I don't think this is the majority opinion, though.
- Scott
Posted by bleauberry on November 11, 2012, at 10:53:34
In reply to Re: Depression is Infectious Inflammation, posted by jono_in_adelaide on November 11, 2012, at 3:18:53
> How does your LLMD explain the existance of psychiatric illness in places where there is no lymes disease (sweden, England, Australia)
That's an excellent question. I can't speak for my doctor because he isn't here to answer for himself but I can share my thoughts on that topic.
Lyme disease has been found virtually everywhere on the planet. Ticks have been found in places and regions where they were supposedly nonexistent. The same bacteria carried by ticks have also been found in dust mites, mosquitos, and some flies. That's just what is known, so you'll have to fill in the blanks for what isn't yet known.
Sweden, England, and Australia do have ticks. They've even been found in snow. And Alaska. This highlights the difficulties in treating lyme....there are too many myths floating around. When we get right down to hardcore nuts and bolts, what actually happens in the doctor's practice, that's where we learn. They see it first hand.
One patient got a bad reaction that looked like lyme, except it was from a barnacle scrape while swimming in the ocean. The symptoms were unexplained depression, weakness, and tiredness. It responded to Lyme treatment even though it wasn't Lyme. That is key to understand.
There are about a dozen infectious organisms that I am familiar with, and several times more I am not familiar with, that all pretty much look the same in terms of symptom presentation. Depending on the doctor seen, they all look like one of or a mixture of these, and are commonly misdiagnosed as one of these:
Depression and all psychiatric symptoms.
Fibromyalgia
Lupus
Arthritis
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome
And moreIt's really hard because tests do not exist to accurately test for any of the suspects. Instead what has to be done arechallenge trials to see what happens....the results of a trial tells a lot, one way or the other. All we know for sure, and it is mostly anecdotal since there isn't any money in it for anyone to research it, is that patients in those categories who have tried antibiotics often improve or go into remission. At this point in history each of us sort of have to fill in the blanks as to why and how on our own. That's when I prefer to hear what someone says on the topic who actually sees it 8 hours a day every day as their work. LLMDs for example understand they are potentially treating a lot more than just one simple bacteria, and when the patient gets better they may never know for sure what the bug was or what the cause of the inflammation was, only that they got better on antimicrobial strategies but not other strategies.
Posted by Phil on November 11, 2012, at 15:24:20
In reply to Re: Depression is Infectious Inflammation » jono_in_adelaide, posted by bleauberry on November 11, 2012, at 10:53:34
From the CDC
Fast FactsIn 2011, 96% of Lyme disease cases were reported from 13 states:
Connecticut
Delaware
Maine
Maryland
Massachusetts
Minnesota
New Hampshire
New Jersey
New York
Pennsylvania
Vermont
Virginia
WisconsinLyme disease is the most commonly reported vectorborne illness in the United States--in 2011, it was the 6th most common Nationally Notifiable disease. However this disease DOES NOT occur nationwide and is concentrated heavily in the northeast and upper Midwest.
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on November 11, 2012, at 18:59:00
In reply to Re: Depression is Infectious Inflammation » jono_in_adelaide, posted by bleauberry on November 11, 2012, at 10:53:34
The other question I'd ask is why dont drugs that control inflamation (NSAID's, Steroids,Immunosuppresants) releive psychiatric symptoms
Posted by jono_in_adelaide on November 11, 2012, at 19:00:56
In reply to Re: Depression is Infectious Inflammation » jono_in_adelaide, posted by bleauberry on November 11, 2012, at 10:53:34
I'm sure some people with west nile, lymes, ross river fever etc are misdiagnised as psychiatric cases by ignorannt doctors, but I realy cant beleive they are the majority.
As for CFS, i wont tell you my opinions on that, as things might get nasty
Posted by SLS on November 12, 2012, at 13:10:05
In reply to Depression is Infectious Inflammation, posted by bleauberry on November 10, 2012, at 5:35:08
I had an interesting conversation with my doctor this morning. He seems to be drifting in the direction of your doctor regarding the notion of infection mediating depression. A little searching on Google demonstrates a growing interest in this.
My doctor wrote the following articles detailing infection, inflammation, and psychiatric symptoms.
However, I also found the following article. It provides some evidence to support my contention that inflammation could be the result of MDD rather than its cause.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/01/120105112235.htm
The following article provides a basis for a theory that depression accompanies infection as an adaptive response.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120301103756.htm
I think that depression normally functions to prevent an individual from spending too much time, energy, and stress in pursuing a futile goal. It allows one to accept and adapt to his environment. Major Depressive Disorder might be a derangement in the physiological dynamics of this otherwise healthy process.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=depressions-evolutionary
Looking at the big picture, it seems to me that the word "depression" represents a plethora of conditions with a broad range of etiologies. It doesn't make sense to me to look at depression as being a singular pathology.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on November 12, 2012, at 20:21:43
In reply to Re: Depression is Infectious Inflammation » bleauberry, posted by SLS on November 12, 2012, at 13:10:05
Hence your response to minocycline as crosses blood brain barrier. Phillip
Posted by delna on November 12, 2012, at 21:38:04
In reply to Re: Depression is Infectious Inflammation » bleauberry, posted by SLS on November 12, 2012, at 13:10:05
Hi,
I vanished for ages so I don't know if anyone remembers me. Anyway, I have been through 2 years of insanity. I have had loads of experiences with different treatments and I want to report back to everyone at some point.
On this subject though:
I have a pretty bad 'inflammatory condition' which is totally unidentifiable. My markers like hsCRP and ESR are very high. For example hs-CRP should be under 3. Mine is 25-30. hs CRP has been consistently raised for the past 2 years. I've been tested for everything because doctors were alarmed but nothing can be found.
My psychiatrist who is also part immunologist believes inflammation and depression are linked (but which came first is hard to say.) He is pushing minocycline on me as he thinks this will help depression by reducing inflammation and thus break the cycle.Am I being stupid and stubborn in resisting minocycline? He gave me a prescription which I haven't filled.
Actually, I would be a great guinea pig to test this theory. My numbers are very high so inflammation is 'visible' and quantifiable. If the numbers come down and my depression/fatigue gets better, this may suggest attacking the inflammatory pathway may be an option for others.
Also the research on the link between the two is very strong. I have papers given to me by my doctor which explore this very thing. I can share if others want them.
Please feel free to push me to try minocycline :-) I need to shake off my cynicism.
Take Care,Divya
Posted by SLS on November 13, 2012, at 6:14:12
In reply to Re: Depression is Infectious Inflammation, posted by delna on November 12, 2012, at 21:38:04
> Please feel free to push me to try minocycline :-) I need to shake off my cynicism.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20120803/msgs/1023257.html
I am doing well with my present treatment regime. When I first began taking minocycline, I experienced an improvement within the first five days. However, my progress towards remission has also required an increase in my dosage of prazosin. Minocycline might work synergistically with other anti-glutamatergic drugs like Lamictal or perhaps even memantine or NAC. There is much work that needs to be done to characterize the role that minocycline will play in psychiatry.
Minocycline is not hocus pocus, and I believe is worth a try if you are really desperate to try something different.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on November 13, 2012, at 7:11:43
In reply to Re: Depression is Infectious Inflammation, posted by delna on November 12, 2012, at 21:38:04
ScienceDaily articles regarding infection and inflammation in psychiatric presentations.
Common Parasite May Trigger Suicide Attempts: Inflammation from T. Gondii Produces Brain-Damaging Metaboliteshttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120816170400.htm
Depression: An Evolutionary Byproduct of Immune System?http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120301103756.htm
Targeting Inflammation to Treat Depressionhttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120903221132.htm
Inflammation in Depression: Chicken or Egg?http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/01/120105112235.htm
Childhood Adversity Increases Risk for Depression and Chronic Inflammationhttp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/07/120703133721.htm
- Scott
Posted by Delna on November 13, 2012, at 9:12:11
In reply to Re: Depression is Infectious Inflammation » delna, posted by SLS on November 13, 2012, at 7:11:43
> > Please feel free to push me to try minocycline :-) I need to shake off my cynicism.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20120803/msgs/1023257.html
>
> I am doing well with my present treatment regime. When I first began taking minocycline, I experienced an improvement within the first five days. However, my progress towards remission has also required an increase in my dosage of prazosin. Minocycline might work synergistically with other anti-glutamatergic drugs like Lamictal or perhaps even memantine or NAC. There is much work that needs to be done to characterize the role that minocycline will play in psychiatry.
>
> Minocycline is not hocus pocus, and I believe is worth a try if you are really desperate to try something different.
Oh, wow. Thank you Scott. That is so useful. I didn't know any of that. And although I am on Lamictal, he's given me a starter pack for mementine.
All that information is enough to convince me. And I am desperate. I am on so many stimulants but still am foggy and tired all the time.
I have come to distrust doctors but I count the experiences of other patients as extremely valuable. So Thanks for sharing your research and experience.
Good to hear you are doing better
Take Care
DivyaPS:I will be filling my prescription today :-)
Posted by SLS on November 13, 2012, at 14:20:44
In reply to Re: Depression is Infectious Inflammation » SLS, posted by Delna on November 13, 2012, at 9:12:11
Hi Divya.
> PS:I will be filling my prescription today :-)
:-)
The only serious side effect to look out for is brain swelling (pseudotumor cerebri). This is rare, but you should know the signs and symptoms:
------------------------------------------------------
Moderate to severe headaches that may originate behind your eyes, wake you from sleep and worsen with eye movement
Ringing in the ears that pulses in time with your heartbeat
Nausea, vomiting or dizziness
Blurred or dimmed vision
Brief episodes of blindness, lasting only a few seconds and affecting one or both eyes (visual obscurations)
Difficulty seeing to the side
Double vision (diplopia)
Seeing light flashes (photopsia)
Neck, shoulder or back pain
----------------------------------------------------
The other side effect of minocycline that concerns me is the possible discoloration of teeth and finger nails that has been reported with long term use. I don't know how common this is, but I think the discoloration can be irreversible. I hope these things don't scare you. I just think that you should know as much as possible about a drug before being treated by it.
So far, minocycline has treated me well. There are no side effects that I can detect.
I started at 100 mg/day (50 mg twice a day) and then increased to 200 mg/day (100 mg twice a day). For me, 200 mg/day was decidedly more effective than 100 mg/day.
- Scott
Posted by delna on November 13, 2012, at 19:45:36
In reply to Re: Depression is Infectious Inflammation » Delna, posted by SLS on November 13, 2012, at 14:20:44
> Hi Divya.
>
> > PS:I will be filling my prescription today :-)
>
> :-)
>
> The only serious side effect to look out for is brain swelling (pseudotumor cerebri). This is rare, but you should know the signs and symptoms:
>
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> Moderate to severe headaches that may originate behind your eyes, wake you from sleep and worsen with eye movement
>
> Ringing in the ears that pulses in time with your heartbeat
>
> Nausea, vomiting or dizziness
>
> Blurred or dimmed vision
>
> Brief episodes of blindness, lasting only a few seconds and affecting one or both eyes (visual obscurations)
>
> Difficulty seeing to the side
>
> Double vision (diplopia)
>
> Seeing light flashes (photopsia)
>
> Neck, shoulder or back pain
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
>
> The other side effect of minocycline that concerns me is the possible discoloration of teeth and finger nails that has been reported with long term use. I don't know how common this is, but I think the discoloration can be irreversible. I hope these things don't scare you. I just think that you should know as much as possible about a drug before being treated by it.
>
> So far, minocycline has treated me well. There are no side effects that I can detect.
>
> I started at 100 mg/day (50 mg twice a day) and then increased to 200 mg/day (100 mg twice a day). For me, 200 mg/day was decidedly more effective than 100 mg/day.
>
>
> - Scott
Again Scott, thanks for for that. I know minocycline is rotten in many ways, I have taken it before and am aware of the nasty side effects. But my other options are worse, like adding another AP on top of the sulpiride. I already developed metabolic syndrome which sucks.
Can I ask you an off topic question please?
Why is lurasidone considered similar to ziprasidone? I can find no similarity but have read patient posts saying they are like twins.
thanks
Divya
Posted by Phillipa on November 13, 2012, at 20:09:57
In reply to Re: Depression is Infectious Inflammation » SLS, posted by delna on November 13, 2012, at 19:45:36
Delna I remember you. Weren't you living in India or some foreign land? As for the minocycline did you experience the headaches & dizzyiness. As I was given it for a dermatology problem and after 4 doses of 70mg had the dizzyness & headache but it didn't wake me. Also the lupus had me concerned and yes the gum and nail discoloration. But it crosses the blood brain barrier and others don't. What did you take it before for? I still have my script for 70mg and yes it's fresh. I did notice improvement of bowels first day. I did have problems with trying to take it without calcium/magnesium. I still test positive for lymes so thought also if true it might help? Phillipa
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