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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by phillipa on October 12, 2012, at 9:55:39
I don't know doesn't sound good. Heard Biden was a giggling fool. What do you all think? Phillipa
From Medscape Medical NewsBiden, Ryan Come Out Swinging on Medicare in Debate
Robert Lowes
Authors and Disclosures
Posted: 10/12/2012
October 11, 2012 In their one and only debate, Vice President Joe Biden and Republican vice presidential nominee Paul Ryan (R-WI) tonight tried to portray each other as Medicare wreckers, and themselves as Medicare saviors.
They picked up where President Barack Obama and Republican challenger Mitt Romney left off on this subject in their debate last week, except that Biden gave the kind of aggressive, impassioned performance that Obama didn't. For his part, Ryan remained cool and firm despite Biden's rhetorical fire, interruptions, and good-natured cackling.
The debate, held at Centre College in Danville, Kentucky, covered both foreign and domestic policy. Debate moderator Martha Raddatz, senior foreign affairs correspondent for ABC News, introduced the subject of healthcare when she asked the 2 men seated across from her at a semi-circular table if Social Security and Medicare benefits would have to change for the programs to survive.
Ryan repeated the Romney charge that the Affordable Care Act (ACA) cut $716 billion from Medicare to pay for "Obamacare." Biden countered that the cuts did not affect seniors' benefits, which he said have grown under the law. "Do you have more benefits today," he asked, looking at the television camera. "You do." He cited lower costs in the Medicare Part D drug program and free wellness visits as examples.
Instead, the ACA saved Medicare $716 billion by reducing overpayments to Medicare Advantage plans, hospitals, and other providers, Biden said. Ryan pounced on that statement.
"One out of 6 hospitals and nursing homes will go out of business as a result of this," said Ryan.
Like Romney, Ryan also took a shot at the controversial Independent Payment Advisory Board (IPAB) that the ACA created to rein in Medicare spending. Ryan said it would lead to "denied care."
"The board, by the way, is 15 people the president is supposed to appoint next year," said Ryan, "and not one of them even has to have medical training."
By law, IPAB is forbidden to recommend rationing care, restricting benefits, modifying eligibility, raising Medicare beneficiary premiums, or increasing Medicare deductibles, coinsurance, or copayments. Biden did not point out these limitations, but instead dismissed Ryan's comments by saying, "I heard this death panel argument from Sarah Palin."
Bureaucrats, Vouchers, and Trust
Perhaps the most heated exchanges between the 2 vice presidential candidates dealt with the Romney/Ryan plan to convert Medicare into a premium support or "voucher" program. Seniors would receive a fixed amount of money to purchase either traditional Medicare coverage or a private plan. Americans ages 55 years and older would be grandfathered into the current program, as would current beneficiaries.
"We would rather have seniors determine how their Medicare is delivered to them," said Ryan, "instead of 15 bureaucrats deciding what, if, where, and when they get it."
Ryan said it was necessary to reform both Medicare and Social Security for "my generation" so that the programs would not crumble for Americans now near retirement.
Biden argued that premium support payments would not keep up with healthcare costs, leaving seniors with more of the bill. He said an earlier version of the voucher plan that Ryan introduced in 2011 would add $6400 to a senior's healthcare costs, according to the Congressional Budget Office (CBO). "Governor Romney said, 'I will sign it,' " Biden noted.
Ryan said that this CBO estimate is misleading because the Republican ticket is not advocating this plan, but a new bipartisan one crafted with the help of Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR). "There's not one Democrat who supports it," Biden interrupted, adding that Wyden has withdrawn his endorsement.
Several times during the debate, Biden asked listeners which party they trusted to ensure the life of Medicare. Republicans, he said, "have not been big on Medicare since the beginning." Ryan, in turn, accused Biden and his fellow Democrats of stooping to scare tactics.
This back-and-forth on Medicare is sure to resume when Romney and Obama debate a second time on October 16 at Hofstra University in Hempstead, New York, tackling foreign as well as domestic policy. The third and final presidential debate, to be focused exclusively on foreign policy, is scheduled for October 22 at Lynn University in Boca Raton, Florida.
Posted by brynb on October 12, 2012, at 11:09:58
In reply to Debate Last Night On Medicaire + Insurance, posted by phillipa on October 12, 2012, at 9:55:39
> I don't know doesn't sound good. Heard Biden was a giggling fool. What do you all think? Phillipa
>
>Biden was disrespectful, interruptive and completely unprofessional. And yes, he had the audacity to laugh (numerous times) at Ryan. Ugh.
Posted by ChicagoKat on October 12, 2012, at 12:48:47
In reply to Debate Last Night On Medicaire + Insurance, posted by phillipa on October 12, 2012, at 9:55:39
I didn't watch the debate; I mostly try to stay away from all the hooplah over the election and politics in general, b/c it all makes me angry and upset. I will definitely be voting for Obama in November...but I'm afraid the results of the election may be disappointing. :(
Kat
Posted by jane d on October 12, 2012, at 15:02:51
In reply to Re: Debate Last Night On Medicaire + Insurance » phillipa, posted by brynb on October 12, 2012, at 11:09:58
> > I don't know doesn't sound good. Heard Biden was a giggling fool. What do you all think? Phillipa
> >
> >
>
> Biden was disrespectful, interruptive and completely unprofessional. And yes, he had the audacity to laugh (numerous times) at Ryan. Ugh.In other words you're saying he acted like Romney.
But does it really matter with issues as important as the ones at stake? Whichever side you're on they are so far apart how could debate demeanor even begin to be a factor in deciding?
Posted by brynb on October 12, 2012, at 16:01:24
In reply to Re: Debate Last Night On Medicaire + Insurance » brynb, posted by jane d on October 12, 2012, at 15:02:51
> > > I don't know doesn't sound good. Heard Biden was a giggling fool. What do you all think? Phillipa
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Biden was disrespectful, interruptive and completely unprofessional. And yes, he had the audacity to laugh (numerous times) at Ryan. Ugh.
>
> In other words you're saying he acted like Romney.Hardly. Romney was stately, assertive and forceful. He did not disrespect Obama, nor did he interrupt him or laugh at him. No one criticized him for being rude. (Unlike Biden, who faced much criticism for his unprofessional antics from even the liberal media.)
> But does it really matter with issues as important as the ones at stake? Whichever side you're on they are so far apart how could debate demeanor even begin to be a factor in deciding?
It's certainly not a factor in my decision, but I think it is more so for those who are undecided. That said, it is quite important to see how candidates act under pressure & by public scrutiny, no?
Either way, an issue that did come up in last night's debate that should be considered, however, was Biden's comment about how he & Obama "weren't told by central intelligence" to have extra backup in Libya. Oh, so it's the CIA's fault? Um, isn't the president of the US the commander in chief?
Posted by phillipa on October 12, 2012, at 21:02:55
In reply to Re: Debate Last Night On Medicaire + Insurance » jane d, posted by brynb on October 12, 2012, at 16:01:24
Excellent point. From the signs in yards here it's a landslide for Romney. One neighbor in the exclusive part had about 12 Obami signs up yesterday. Today when I rode my bike they were gone. I asked another neighbor about it she said. The neighborhood did it as a joke and that he was definitely a Romney man. I don't do politics either. But no escaping that this election people are fed up and the Romney signs are the only ones up in yards. So looks like NC is heading Republican. Phillipa
Posted by jane d on October 13, 2012, at 0:40:30
In reply to Re: Debate Last Night On Medicaire + Insurance » jane d, posted by brynb on October 12, 2012, at 16:01:24
> Hardly. Romney was stately, assertive and forceful. He did not disrespect Obama, nor did he interrupt him or laugh at him. No one criticized him for being rude.
Yes. That amazed me. He smirked throughout, he talked over the moderator, and he refused to actually answer the questions instead running on at high speed on his talking points which I thought showed a lack of respect for all of us. I really felt like I was watching a school yard performance that was going to end any minute with a "your mama" comment and that the commentators were the other schoolkids egging him on in the hopes of seeing a fight.
It made me very glad he was not my candidate. I really do believe the issues are too important to let personal feelings for or against a candidate decide them but I would have found it painful to have to pull a lever for him in November.
Posted by jane d on October 13, 2012, at 1:03:21
In reply to Re: Debate Last Night On Medicaire + Insurance » brynb, posted by phillipa on October 12, 2012, at 21:02:55
> Excellent point. From the signs in yards here it's a landslide for Romney. One neighbor in the exclusive part had about 12 Obami signs up yesterday. Today when I rode my bike they were gone. I asked another neighbor about it she said. The neighborhood did it as a joke and that he was definitely a Romney man. I don't do politics either. But no escaping that this election people are fed up and the Romney signs are the only ones up in yards. So looks like NC is heading Republican. Phillipa
Even though it went democratic last time?
The last presidential election was the first one I spent in an area that had yards and thus yard signs. I was doing a lot of driving around looking for a place to live and I found it fascinating how within a short distance you could go from almost all McCain to almost all Obama. It struck me that in these semi suburban areas people really do segregate themselves to an amazing degree with others like themselves. And those signs did influence where I chose to live.
I guess it's also possible that Obama supporters are less likely to put up signs if all their neighbors signs are Romney and the reverse but I'm not sure it works like that. The one thing that might get me to put up a sign of my own is if the neighbors all sprouted opposing signs. As long as their yards remain bare so will mine. Which leads to another question - is there a difference between those who put up signs and those who don't.
Posted by Dinah on October 13, 2012, at 20:34:17
In reply to Re: Debate Last Night On Medicare + Insurance » phillipa, posted by jane d on October 13, 2012, at 1:03:21
I only put up a sign if I feel really strongly about someone. I've put up signs less than a handful of times in my life, I'd estimate. To me, it's a symbol of commitment to a candidate, as opposed to simply voting for them. As such, I would consider it wrong of me to consider how it would be viewed by my neighbors. (Which may explain why I don't have all that many friends.)
I try not to judge people for their manner in the debates. I can't watch them anymore without thinking of all the coaching a candidate gets on what to do with his face, his voice, his gestures, his stance, etc. Very few people can pull off that level of self consciousness while also trying to remember enough material not to make a serious gaffe. When I do watch debates, I find that I spend the time trying to figure out what their coaches instructed them to do. It's been a long time since I saw anyone look at ease in a debate.
Except for actual rudeness. I do judge people for that. I don't even care if they were coached to seem masterful or aggressive. I just don't like incivility. In fact, the only campaign commercial I've liked this year was the one advocating no candidate at all in any race, but calling for civility in the public arena.
That being said, I didn't think either candidate smirked from what I saw. I think facial expressions can be judged differently by different people. It does kind of bother me to see judgments like that made about Romney, simply because in style he resembles many of the men I grew up with and respected. I have a feeling it's a style that is often misinterpreted by the modern world.
I don't mean this as an endorsement or criticism of either candidate. I won't be putting out any yard signs this year.
I hate election years. Thank heavens for cable and DVD's.
Posted by phillipa on October 14, 2012, at 0:22:32
In reply to Re: Debate Last Night On Medicare + Insurance » phillipa, posted by jane d on October 13, 2012, at 1:03:21
It does look that way bumper stickers appearing also. Last election Obama signs in yards and bumper stickers. Now this is a good part of the suberbs of Charlotte. So truly who knows but could influence the undecided. We are not allowed to put up signs homeowners rules. So pheww to that. Phillipa
Posted by jane d on October 14, 2012, at 2:23:24
In reply to Re: Debate Last Night On Medicare + Insurance » jane d, posted by Dinah on October 13, 2012, at 20:34:17
> Except for actual rudeness. I do judge people for that. I don't even care if they were coached to seem masterful or aggressive. I just don't like incivility. In fact, the only campaign commercial I've liked this year was the one advocating no candidate at all in any race, but calling for civility in the public arena.
>
> That being said, I didn't think either candidate smirked from what I saw. I think facial expressions can be judged differently by different people. It does kind of bother me to see judgments like that made about Romney, simply because in style he resembles many of the men I grew up with and respected. I have a feeling it's a style that is often misinterpreted by the modern world.I'd been hoping to get your imput on that. I try but it's hard to know whether or not I'm being influenced by what I believe about his positions. And a deep personal dislike for that style. I had less problems with his facial expressions than I did his running over the moderator. To me that seemed to cross a line. What was your impression?
> I hate election years. Thank heavens for cable and DVD's.
No respite here. I'm even getting ads wherever I go on the internet. Except here. Thank you Bob for abstaining.
Posted by sleepygirl2 on October 14, 2012, at 11:18:03
In reply to Re: Debate Last Night On Medicare + Insurance » phillipa, posted by jane d on October 13, 2012, at 1:03:21
I was noticing yesterday that I don't see a lot of bumper stickers. I do remember seeing a lot of them in 2008.
I hate this election, btw.
I wish there was a way, to just state positions clearly, without all the dynamics of politics and presentation.
I feel like someone is trying to sell me a car.
I've just been listening a lot to NPR. They've got the 30 issues in 30 days series going, with a different topic each day, things that are relevant! important to consider.
Posted by ChicagoKat on October 15, 2012, at 19:13:37
In reply to Re: Debate Last Night On Medicare + Insurance » jane d, posted by sleepygirl2 on October 14, 2012, at 11:18:03
> I was noticing yesterday that I don't see a lot of bumper stickers. I do remember seeing a lot of them in 2008.
> I hate this election, btw.
> I wish there was a way, to just state positions clearly, without all the dynamics of politics and presentation.
> I feel like someone is trying to sell me a car.
> I've just been listening a lot to NPR. They've got the 30 issues in 30 days series going, with a different topic each day, things that are relevant! important to consider.
>And don't forget there's Car Talk on Saturday mornings on NPR! Hilarious way to get one's mind off of anything, including bloody politics.
I agree with you sleepygirl, I hate this election, and I avoid listening to the news b/c of it.
Kat
Posted by jane d on October 16, 2012, at 9:28:10
In reply to Re: Debate Last Night On Medicare + Insurance » jane d, posted by sleepygirl2 on October 14, 2012, at 11:18:03
> I was noticing yesterday that I don't see a lot of bumper stickers. I do remember seeing a lot of them in 2008.
I haven't noticed any either. Of course I'm not sure I would notice.
> I feel like someone is trying to sell me a car.
Yeah. http://www.factcheck.org/ The equivalent of checking your car out in consumer reports? At least it's a place to start.
> I've just been listening a lot to NPR. They've got the 30 issues in 30 days series going, with a different topic each day, things that are relevant! important to consider.
I've been listening to that too. I love podcasts!
Posted by brynb on October 16, 2012, at 12:42:51
In reply to Re: Debate Last Night On Medicare + Insurance » sleepygirl2, posted by jane d on October 16, 2012, at 9:28:10
Without outright saying who I plan on voting for, I'd like to throw out there that I consider myself an Independent (otherwise, a "compassionate conservative"--I know, I can only imagine the eye rolls).
With that, I base my opinions on politicians as individual people, not their parties. For example, I really like Bill Clinton, and I am not a democrat. I love Hillary Clinton--she's a smart, gracious lady and a heck of an intelligent woman who is well-seasoned in foreign affairs. She also has bigger balls than many of her male counterparts. Naturally, Obama had kept her silent and tucked away the past four years. And now--lo and behold!--she's suddenly back in the spotlight and taking the heat for the tragedy in Libya.
What a shame. Leave it to an incompetent, pompous guy like Obama to ruin her career. If I thought he was actually that crafty, I'd say it was done intentionally.
Posted by phillipa on October 16, 2012, at 20:05:47
In reply to Re: Debate Last Night On Medicare + Insurance, posted by brynb on October 16, 2012, at 12:42:51
Debate #2 tonight. Phillipa
Posted by brynb on October 17, 2012, at 8:30:53
In reply to Re: Debate Last Night On Medicare + Insurance » brynb, posted by phillipa on October 16, 2012, at 20:05:47
Hi-Did you watch it Phillipa? It's a shame, really.
Obama had a chance (ableit not a big one at last night's debate) to get his footing back as a (somewhat) competent, credible politician himself, but alas, he couldn't
keep up with Romney.
This is the end of the thread.
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