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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by gadchik on August 22, 2012, at 17:27:28
In reply to Re: Can someone explain this in lay terms? » gadchik, posted by Phillipa on August 22, 2012, at 17:02:12
this is the article in its entirety but i have trouble following it. I do know that benzos affect gaba,though they dont make you produce more.
Posted by Phillipa on August 22, 2012, at 17:29:57
In reply to Re: Can someone explain this in lay terms? » Phillipa, posted by gadchik on August 22, 2012, at 17:27:28
Thanks will read. P
Posted by brynb on August 22, 2012, at 19:34:11
In reply to Can someone explain this in lay terms?, posted by gadchik on August 22, 2012, at 15:57:29
Hi Gadchik,
Science and neuroscience are definitely NOT my forte, but I thought I'd chime in.
My understanding is that benzos, other hypnotics, barbiturates and alcohol (and I'm sure some other drugs) bind directly to GABA, and in doing so (I believe) they inhibit or block other neurotransmitters which cause imbalances or anxiety.
Essentially, by binding to the GABA site, benzos prevent anxiety by blocking other "stuff" out (quite scientific sounding, I know, lol). When you hit GABA directly, you feel the anxiolytic effects, which is probably why so many people become dependent on and addicted to downers. Anything that binds to GABA directly like that is effective and potentially addictive.
It's also my understanding that benzos are more subtle in this process than barbs. Barbs are more powerful (or even "cleaner") in the way they work on GABA, but also much more toxic in large amounts, which is pretty much why benzos were created (they're safer). On a daily basis, your benzo is keeping activity low around the GABA site, and reducing your anxiety. After awhile, though (like so many other meds!) you build up a tolerance to them and need to take larger doses.
Did that make sense? Someone correct me if I'm wrong!
-b
Posted by rjlockhart37 on August 22, 2012, at 21:53:35
In reply to Can someone explain this in lay terms?, posted by gadchik on August 22, 2012, at 15:57:29
i don't know if this relates with the subject but when I was on benzos I always looked forward to that sedation they would give....the zoned, relaxed feeling, and yes It can impair people at times from feeling real life...usally people on benzos in the old days had serious anxiety that caused them to be dehabiliated from reality....benzos and barbiturates relieve this but they also themselves can stop you from feeling excitement from daily things.
rj
Posted by gadchik on August 23, 2012, at 6:58:21
In reply to Re: Can someone explain this in lay terms? » gadchik, posted by brynb on August 22, 2012, at 19:34:11
thanks for your input. I always look at articles about gaba, and wonder if my brain will be forever altered by my daily benzo use,altho its a small dose. But from my experience of attempting tapers, a little tiny piece of klonopin holds me captive.
Posted by Phillipa on August 23, 2012, at 19:09:07
In reply to Re: Can someone explain this in lay terms?, posted by gadchik on August 23, 2012, at 6:58:21
Don't understand it. Just take the klonopin as you are well and function well also. So it can't be harmful for you. P
Posted by SLS on August 23, 2012, at 19:27:08
In reply to Re: Can someone explain this in lay terms?, posted by gadchik on August 23, 2012, at 6:58:21
> thanks for your input. I always look at articles about gaba, and wonder if my brain will be forever altered by my daily benzo use,altho its a small dose. But from my experience of attempting tapers, a little tiny piece of klonopin holds me captive.
There is some indication that Trileptal (oxcarbazepine), an anticonvulsant, can help people discontinue BZDs.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on August 23, 2012, at 19:43:46
In reply to Can someone explain this in lay terms?, posted by gadchik on August 22, 2012, at 15:57:29
> "Neural stem cells seem to be particularly interested in the chemical GABA (gamma-aminobutyric acid) a neurotransmitter thats known to be involved in inhibiting signals from other neurons. When scientists artificially block these stem cells GABA receptors from receiving messages, the cells wake up and start replicating but when those GABA signals are allowed to reach the receptors, the stem cells stay dormant.
I don't know for sure, but I will venture a guess. I think we are looking at a negative feedback loop.
GABA is the most common inhibitory neurotransmitter in the brain. There are more GABA neurons than any other type (glutamate, dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin, etc.) They are responsible for preventing overactivity of excitatory pathways. They act as "brakes". The brain must make sure that there are enough brakes to control and balance the system. New neurons come from stem cells. Stem cells can become any type of neuron, depending on what they are "told" to grow into (differentiation). If there is not enough GABA floating around, the stem cells are told to become GABA neurons. The way a stem cell knows that there isn't enough GABA is to have special receptors that "see" GABA molecules. If you "blind" those receptors to GABA by blocking them artificially, the stem cell thinks that there is insufficient GABA in the environment, and it therefore differentiates into a GABA neuron.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on August 23, 2012, at 21:34:33
In reply to Re: Can someone explain this in lay terms? » gadchik, posted by SLS on August 23, 2012, at 19:43:46
I sure need the Gaba. Phillipa
Posted by SLS on August 24, 2012, at 1:12:33
In reply to Re: Can someone explain this in lay terms? » SLS, posted by Phillipa on August 23, 2012, at 21:34:33
> I sure need the Gaba. Phillipa
I wish I had an easy answer for you.
Have you tried L-theanine? It probably won't work miracles, but it might take the edge off your anxiety.
After you finish exercising, how long does it take to lose the therapeutic effect? Have you ever tried tramadol?
Perhaps one of the AEDs would work to supplement the BZD. Which anticonvulsants have you tried? One of our posters has had success with Topamax for treating anxiety. A gradual titration can avoid the emergence of cognitive side effects. The starter packs used for migraine work well.
Prazosin would be worth looking at if there is any PTSD stuff going on. This would include chronic traumatic events or parental neglect in childhood as well as acute traumas experienced as an adult. Effective dosages can range between 3 - 18 mg. Finding the right dosage is the key to getting the best therapeutic effect. If you take too much, you can experience flat affect and cognitive blunting.
I know you have an interest in minocycline. Apparently, minocycline can actually produce an uncomfortable activation at first if taken in amounts too large for sensitive individuals. Even 50 mg/day can be too much, despite its being prescribed routinely in amounts of 100 mg/day for infections. For depression, amounts currently being studied for depression range from 100 - 200 mg/day given in divided dosages. I haven't yet seen a study designed to treat anxiety.
I am not disposed to reprimand you for deciding to experiment with minocycline on your own, especially when you were prescribed this drug by one of your doctors. However, it might be a good idea to keep your psychiatrist apprised of your use of this drug and its potential as a psychotropic, if for no other reason but to keep him in the loop so that you maintain a good working relationship with him.
As a nurse, you understand that old minocycline becomes poisonous. Just making sure...
- Scott
Posted by gadchik on August 24, 2012, at 6:43:13
In reply to Re: Can someone explain this in lay terms? » gadchik, posted by SLS on August 23, 2012, at 19:43:46
Thanks,Scott, that was very well put and helped me to understand the article. Do you think,for people that seem to have a gaba problem,which I assume leads to panic,that a benzo does beneficial things for that type of brain? Or does it end up being detrimental?
Posted by gadchik on August 24, 2012, at 6:45:01
In reply to Re: Can someone explain this in lay terms? » gadchik, posted by Phillipa on August 23, 2012, at 19:09:07
>>Just take the klonopin as you are well and function well also. So it can't be harmful for you. P
my pdoc says the same, p!
Posted by SLS on August 24, 2012, at 7:09:17
In reply to Re: Can someone explain this in lay terms? » SLS, posted by gadchik on August 24, 2012, at 6:43:13
> Thanks,Scott, that was very well put and helped me to understand the article. Do you think,for people that seem to have a gaba problem,which I assume leads to panic,that a benzo does beneficial things for that type of brain? Or does it end up being detrimental?
I really don't feel that I have researched the matter well enough to give you a definitive answer. However, it seems to me that memory function remains mostly intact in chronic BZD treatment despite some studies that report a measurable decline. Very often, the sensitivity of a test to measure memory function resolves differences that are imperceptible to the patient. I really don't see any disadvantage to being on a BZD for the long-term other than the difficulties of discontinuing them. Of course, if they work, there may never be a reason to discontinue them. I think one of the best treatments for social anxiety / phobia is to combine Nardil with Klonopin. If generalized anxiety disorder is the source of the anxiety, I would probably try a serotonergic drug (SSRI and SNRI) first - possibly even tramadol. It is a difficult decision to make. Nardil can be effective also, especially when panic is present. I don't have enough of a "feel" for the utility of Valium, but Klonopin, Xanax, and Ativan are worthy choices. Klonopin has an ideal half-life and adds serotonin releasing properties as well. However, some people feel moderately depressed on it. For others, it is a perfect solution. You won't know until you try it.
- Scott
Posted by gadchik on August 24, 2012, at 9:29:32
In reply to Re: Can someone explain this in lay terms? » gadchik, posted by SLS on August 24, 2012, at 7:09:17
I just wish there was more of a consensus in the psychiatric and medical community about benzo use. I can go to my pdoc and get one opinion,then go to my pcp and get a completely different one. And to top it off, Ive had different opinions from pcps,depending on their specialty. As long as benzos have been around, youd think the research could lead to one definitive answer.Ive found that they are the one drug that I can take with minimal side effects,yet,I have read and get told some scary things about them.This has me going in circles at to continue with them or abandon them. And boy do i know it will be a slippery slope for me to abandon them!
Posted by Phillipa on August 24, 2012, at 20:57:02
In reply to Re: Can someone explain this in lay terms? » Phillipa, posted by SLS on August 24, 2012, at 1:12:33
After excercise I then deal with backpain. But it usually releases a lot of anxiety. So willing to sit down. I took trileptal at l50mg a day no side effects. I was supposed to go up to 300mg but quite a few years ago and couldn't afford the cost so stopped it.
I googled doxycycline when that was a subject on here due to blue's saying toxic. So trashed the doxy. The mino is new and dermatologist prescribed it for perioral dermatitis it's know to cause headaches and dizziness per both dermatologists I saw. Second which was my original one decided to treat the skin with two solutions one being clyndymycin lotion and the other a sulfur one I think.
Pdoc is worthless that I have now. Plan on having husband come in with me this time. So far and a year now he's yet to allow him in with me. I told husband that since he sees my level of anxiety that he needs to stress it to the doc. He wants me to find someone else. But only two referrals. Not using the mino now. Seems to be clearing up on face. Biopsy showed eczema which I never had but the dermatologist kept saying stress makes it worse. Phillipa
Posted by gadchik on August 25, 2012, at 6:28:55
In reply to Re: Can someone explain this in lay terms? » SLS, posted by Phillipa on August 24, 2012, at 20:57:02
Stress does make everything worse. I wish you could take klonopin, because I feel it lasts all day,and it works on panic and plain old anxiety. Of course that doesnt mean it works for you that way. I have absolutely no depression from it,and since its also used for seizures,that may be another way it works so well for anxiety.Since the valium and xanax no longer work,maybe you could try klonopin again? I love my pdoc. I had to go through sev before I found her. Theres no way I wouldve had the breakdown if Id been seeing her.
Posted by gadchik on August 25, 2012, at 6:30:50
In reply to Re: Can someone explain this in lay terms? » Phillipa, posted by gadchik on August 25, 2012, at 6:28:55
P,forgot to ask, what dose k caused you to feel depressed? Because I think the key is to stay at 1mg or below for your daily dose.
Posted by Phillipa on August 25, 2012, at 21:28:49
In reply to Re: Can someone explain this in lay terms?, posted by gadchik on August 25, 2012, at 6:30:50
So many years ago and it was a pretty low dose the pdoc at the time was tappering me from xanax to klonopin and body wouldn't allow. About 5 years ago I did take klonopin no depression. It was sent to me by another babbler at the time. I think lmg pills? I still have some of bottle in my small safe in closet. P
Posted by gadchik on August 26, 2012, at 9:21:24
In reply to Re: Can someone explain this in lay terms? » gadchik, posted by Phillipa on August 25, 2012, at 21:28:49
why not try the klonopin? what have you got to lose? of course, you would discuss with your pdoc to see if he/she agrees that you should make the switch.But remember,it takes a period of adjustment from the valium/xanax combo to just the k.
Posted by Phillipa on August 26, 2012, at 19:54:37
In reply to Re: Can someone explain this in lay terms? » Phillipa, posted by gadchik on August 26, 2012, at 9:21:24
Gadchik only problem I see is the doc is an addictions specialist and if I were to want and request to switch and it didn't work he would never switch me back. He's wierd. Really wierd as in strange. Phillipa
Posted by gadchik on August 27, 2012, at 6:27:39
In reply to Re: Can someone explain this in lay terms? » gadchik, posted by Phillipa on August 26, 2012, at 19:54:37
i understand,yes with benzos if you start trying to switch around,do anything diff.,the pdoc gets weird. I dont ask mine to try valium to get off of klonopin because of that. Id be terrified that if I couldnt tolerate the v,she'd not want to let me resume the k.Ive always been very careful about keeping things the same as far as k. I am thinking of asking her to write me an rx for a 2 week supply so I can try teva brand.The pharmacist told me he had to give me all 1 brand with my script,that I couldnt break it up.id likd to try teva and see if i can save some money from using the brand. Do u think she'd react badly to that request?
Posted by Phillipa on August 27, 2012, at 20:17:52
In reply to Re: Can someone explain this in lay terms? » Phillipa, posted by gadchik on August 27, 2012, at 6:27:39
Yes exactly what I mean. Are you taking brand? If so stick to it. If you want to switch generics ask the pharmacist if he/she can order it. I have phamacist who orders greenstone xanax for me as the real deal without spending the money for brand. P
Posted by gadchik on August 28, 2012, at 6:44:26
In reply to Re: Can someone explain this in lay terms? » gadchik, posted by Phillipa on August 27, 2012, at 20:17:52
yes i take brand. EXPENSIVE! it works
Posted by Phillipa on August 28, 2012, at 20:26:06
In reply to Re: Can someone explain this in lay terms?, posted by gadchik on August 28, 2012, at 6:44:26
Stick with it according to a former poster a huge difference his pdoc will only use brand. P
Posted by gadchik on August 29, 2012, at 6:22:36
In reply to Re: Can someone explain this in lay terms? » gadchik, posted by Phillipa on August 28, 2012, at 20:26:06
my pdoc also metioned that she likes the brand for klonopin.
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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