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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 38. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by floatingbridge on November 4, 2010, at 13:57:21
Sometimes I feel a great 'no'. Just no.
Lately, I am so tired and disapointed, when I:m honest, I feel that I don't want to get better. I feel myself sinking, and that's become easier than plodding on.
Has anyone else felt (or feel) this way?
Posted by sigismund on November 4, 2010, at 14:44:26
In reply to does anyone not want to get better?, posted by floatingbridge on November 4, 2010, at 13:57:21
>Has anyone else felt (or feel) this way?
Do you mean that it would somehow be easier to give in and let go and not have to try to drag yourself half-dead around?
That's been a recurring question here.
I can understand that you might. That it might be a way of finding peace.
Something like that? It's not very rational, I know.
Posted by Brainbeard on November 4, 2010, at 15:46:44
In reply to does anyone not want to get better?, posted by floatingbridge on November 4, 2010, at 13:57:21
> Sometimes I feel a great 'no'. Just no.
> (.....)
> Has anyone else felt (or feel) this way?I recognize the feeling, yes. Sometimes I have a feeling that goes with the repetitive thought: 'I don't want to' - period. I mean, it's not that I don't want something specific, but rather that my will is quitting wanting altogether in an act of utter despair.
Freud theorized about what he called 'secondary gain', by which he meant that psychic illness always has some gain to offer, otherwise our psyche wouldn't invest so much in the illness. OCD, for one thing, and especially compulsions, offers an addictive chain of little bursts of dopamine rewards. With every check, every conciliary act, the reward system pumps itself up - for the next check, the next act... It's never enough. Like gambling. Much like gambling.
Posted by SLS on November 4, 2010, at 15:59:52
In reply to does anyone not want to get better?, posted by floatingbridge on November 4, 2010, at 13:57:21
If I were to act the way I feel, I would remain mute and stare into space; not doing the things necesssary to survive independently. Somehow, it sounds more comfortable and peaceful to give up and to no longer push. The effort to function and remain a part of society is immense and can be overwhelming. Such effort is nothing short of heroic.
Push, push, push.
It is always push, push, push.
It gets old.
Why bother?
To discover the answer to this question is to examine your psyche for its motivations to remain alive and reach for the best quality of life that your limited resources will allow, despite the enormous effort required to accomplish this. It is an investigation of character.
- Scott
Posted by Brainbeard on November 4, 2010, at 16:22:31
In reply to Re: does anyone not want to get better? » floatingbridge, posted by SLS on November 4, 2010, at 15:59:52
> To discover the answer to this question is to examine your psyche for its motivations to remain alive and reach for the best quality of life that your limited resources will allow, despite the enormous effort required to accomplish this. It is an investigation of character.
I like this. Gonna take it to heart.
Posted by floatingbridge on November 4, 2010, at 16:52:06
In reply to Re: does anyone not want to get better?, posted by sigismund on November 4, 2010, at 14:44:26
Yes Sigi, like that. Swimming a riptide. Rational? I guess not--I seem to be rationally challenged.
Seems so shameful to admit. I'll tell my pdoc tomorrow. I daren't tell my husband.
Posted by floatingbridge on November 4, 2010, at 17:08:09
In reply to Yep., posted by Brainbeard on November 4, 2010, at 15:46:44
> I recognize the feeling, yes. Sometimes I have a feeling that goes with the repetitive thought: 'I don't want to' - period. I mean, it's not that I don't want something specific, but rather that my will is quitting wanting altogether in an act of utter despair.
>
Your 'will is quitting wanting altogether'? I'm not sure I understand. I do feel 'will'
deficient. And yes, despair.Why does an act of will seem so difficult? Why can I and other times not? I can't quit.
Secondary gains. Hmmm. I usually use this as a weapons of self-injury. Why would I want to be like this? Sometimes I suspect as a perverse way of keeping connection with my parents. But I can't take this fatigue! My pdoc has theories....
But what about 'blame'? That I willfully pursue illness? I'm not saying you are saying that. I am. Like if I could find a
key. Maybe that is unhelpful thinking--a once and for all solution or insight. What's a cure?Thanks BB
> Freud theorized about what he called 'secondary gain', by which he meant that psychic illness always has some gain to offer, otherwise our psyche wouldn't invest so much in the illness. OCD, for one thing, and especially compulsions, offers an addictive chain of little bursts of dopamine rewards. With every check, every conciliary act, the reward system pumps itself up - for the next check, the next act... It's never enough. Like gambling. Much like gambling.
>
>
>
Posted by floatingbridge on November 4, 2010, at 17:21:13
In reply to Re: does anyone not want to get better? » floatingbridge, posted by SLS on November 4, 2010, at 15:59:52
> If I were to act the way I feel, I would remain mute and stare into space; not doing the things necesssary to survive independently. Somehow, it sounds more comfortable and peaceful to give up and to no longer push. The effort to function and remain a part of society is immense and can be overwhelming. Such effort is nothing short of heroic.
>You've dealt with this for sometime. Have you been here before? I guess you have. Does this sort of crisis reoccur?You have found something worthwhile?
> Push, push, push.
>
> It is always push, push, push.
>
> It gets old.Yes, very, very old.
>
> Why bother?I really am not sure. My child. But even that can not be enough (theoretically speaking today).
>
> To discover the answer to this question is to examine your psyche for its motivations to remain alive and reach for the best quality of life that your limited resources will allow, despite the enormous effort required to accomplish this. It is an investigation of character.Scott, I don't have confidence in my
character. My psyche's motivation to be alive.... Yes, I'm still here despite any ambivalence.You set the bar high. I like that. Thanks.
fb
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
Posted by Brainbeard on November 4, 2010, at 17:26:21
In reply to Re: Yep., posted by floatingbridge on November 4, 2010, at 17:08:09
Wow Floating, you're firing a lot of questions there.
I meant to say that my will quits wanting anything. Being alive means to desire. My wife's grandpa is on his death bed and there is nothing in the world he desires anymore, except for there to be an end to his misery.
Disciplin seems like a key, but it's so damn hard.
Parents, yeah... We begin inside our mummies wombs but end up having internalized our parents ourselves into often nasty and mean caricatures.. Our conscience, our superego's.. My biggest problem is an unrealistically strict and harsh superego.
Blame.. There you name it.. Blame and shame.. I still believe we have a choice. Guided By Voices singer Robert Pollard once sang: 'You can never be strong / You can only be free'... And in a way that may be true.
What's a cure? Ah. There's lots of cures. Most of which will fail. That's the tantalizing tragedy of life.
> Thanks BB
You're welcome! Thanks for saying thanks!
Posted by SLS on November 4, 2010, at 17:59:25
In reply to Re: does anyone not want to get better?, posted by floatingbridge on November 4, 2010, at 17:21:13
Do you feel doomed?
Our time here is limited, and the losses of past years are irrecoverable. Time continues relentlessly. What guarantees are there that anything will change in the future? None.
Do you experience significant anhedonia?
How is your anxiety level?
> > If I were to act the way I feel, I would remain mute and stare into space; not doing the things necesssary to survive independently. Somehow, it sounds more comfortable and peaceful to give up and to no longer push. The effort to function and remain a part of society is immense and can be overwhelming. Such effort is nothing short of heroic.
> You've dealt with this for sometime. Have you been here before? I guess you have. Does this sort of crisis reoccur?You have found something worthwhile?
>
> > Push, push, push.
> >
> > It is always push, push, push.
> >
> > It gets old.
>
> Yes, very, very old.
> >
> > Why bother?> I really am not sure. My child. But even that can not be enough (theoretically speaking today).
> > To discover the answer to this question is to examine your psyche for its motivations to remain alive and reach for the best quality of life that your limited resources will allow, despite the enormous effort required to accomplish this. It is an investigation of character.
> Scott, I don't have confidence in my character.
It is not so uncommon that people who have the greatest of characters fail to recognize it. Look in the mirror. You will see what I'm talking about. I happen to be very impressed by your character.
- Scott
Posted by morgan miller on November 4, 2010, at 18:04:53
In reply to Yep., posted by Brainbeard on November 4, 2010, at 15:46:44
>OCD, for one thing, and especially compulsions, offers an addictive chain of little bursts of dopamine rewards.
It also acts as a coping mechanism and distraction from fear, neglect, and trauma.
Just about everything serves a purpose. If we allow ourselves(usually subconsciously) to continue to feel anxiety, we prevent ourselves from feeling really good again, which would then make us vulnerable again. As soon as we are vulnerable, we can then be hurt all over again and lose everything all over again. It's almost easier to stay in this state of feeling at least some pain and discomfort, than feeling good again and experiencing a devastating fall back into misery.
Posted by morgan miller on November 4, 2010, at 18:07:56
In reply to Fire At Will, posted by Brainbeard on November 4, 2010, at 17:26:21
>Guided By Voices singer Robert Pollard once sang: 'You can never be strong / You can only be free'... And in a way that may be true.
Great band
Posted by Brainbeard on November 4, 2010, at 18:18:41
In reply to Re: Yep., posted by morgan miller on November 4, 2010, at 18:04:53
> If we allow ourselves(usually subconsciously) to continue to feel anxiety, we prevent ourselves from feeling really good again, which would then make us vulnerable again.
So very true and insightful! I always go from anxiety to boredom to feeling happy to feeling miserable and 'losing everything', as you adequately put it. As soon as I feel well, my anxiety will agressively force itself upon me - or, perhaps I should say: *I* will agressively force anxiety upon myself..
Posted by Phillipa on November 4, 2010, at 18:32:27
In reply to T--t-t-t-t-t-t-truth, posted by Brainbeard on November 4, 2010, at 18:18:41
FB I had no idea that you feel so bad. What about Standford and possible TMS? Love Phillipa
Posted by morgan miller on November 4, 2010, at 18:43:19
In reply to T--t-t-t-t-t-t-truth, posted by Brainbeard on November 4, 2010, at 18:18:41
> > If we allow ourselves(usually subconsciously) to continue to feel anxiety, we prevent ourselves from feeling really good again, which would then make us vulnerable again.
>
> So very true and insightful! I always go from anxiety to boredom to feeling happy to feeling miserable and 'losing everything', as you adequately put it. As soon as I feel well, my anxiety will agressively force itself upon me - or, perhaps I should say: *I* will agressively force anxiety upon myself..
>
>Yeah I compare it to being afraid to be vulnerable in a romantic relationship. Because we were hurt at some point, we may be afraid to allow ourselves to truly be vulnerable with a romantic partner. We start to allow ourselves to open up some and be happy with someone, but soon begin to do things to sabotage the relationship and maintain a certain "safe" distance. The reality is, we have to be able to be completely vulnerable in a relationship in order to fully reap the benefits of it, maintain it, and truly be happy in it. I am so guilty of sabotage and distancing in both relationships and life, and my anxiety(including the emotional wounds that drive my anxiety) is the star player in all of it.
Posted by sigismund on November 4, 2010, at 19:13:45
In reply to Re: T--t-t-t-t-t-t-truth, posted by morgan miller on November 4, 2010, at 18:43:19
Opening up and being vulnerable (as with letting go) isn't something that can be willed.
In our society there is simply too much that is attempted by effort of will.
Posted by morgan miller on November 4, 2010, at 20:17:26
In reply to Re: T--t-t-t-t-t-t-truth, posted by sigismund on November 4, 2010, at 19:13:45
> Opening up and being vulnerable (as with letting go) isn't something that can be willed.
>
> In our society there is simply too much that is attempted by effort of will.True. But, it is possible to achieve being stronger so that one is capable of opening of and being vulnerable through breaking down barriers, learning to trust, and learning to love oneself in therapy. It may take some hard work and time, but it is possible.
I do think effort of will is necessary to some extent, without it you would not have the will or strength to do the work you need to do to get to a healthier place. Also, will is involved in taking risks and exposing oneself, and through these, we can learn to become stronger. It's the old exposure therapy idea used in overcoming fears.
Posted by floatingbridge on November 4, 2010, at 21:18:04
In reply to Re: does anyone not want to get better? » floatingbridge, posted by SLS on November 4, 2010, at 17:59:25
> Do you feel doomed?
Yes, sometimes. Being raised with an apocalypse loving family.
>> Our time here is limited, and the losses of past years are irrecoverable. Time continues relentlessly. What guarantees are there that anything will change in the future? None.
>
Yes. I can barely bare it.> Do you experience significant anhedonia?
>
I'm not sure. It was rated significant in Jan at Stanford--I couldn't tell. What is intolerable now is that I can experience some pleasure, maybe even daily, but the remainder I am outside of it. Just tiny windows.
> How is your anxiety level?
It's increased, and I'm taking 1.5 xanax xr daily and extra as needed. For the past few weeks I had been having ptsd triggers, like trapdoors. Very fruitful on one hand, but frightening.>
> > > If I were to act the way I feel, I would remain mute and stare into space; not doing the things necesssary to
survive independently. Somehow, it sounds more comfortable and peaceful to give up and to no longer push. The effort to function and remain a part of society is immense and can be overwhelming. Such effort is nothing short of heroic.
But Scott, how does someone keep on? I don't think I am that strong.
>
>
> > You've dealt with this for sometime. Have you been here before? I guess you have. Does this sort of crisis reoccur?You have found something worthwhile?
> >
> > > Push, push, push.
> > >
> > > It is always push, push, push.
> > >
> > > It gets old.
> >
> > Yes, very, very old.
> > >
> > > Why bother?
>
> > I really am not sure. My child. But even that can not be enough (theoretically speaking today).
>
> > > To discover the answer to this question is to examine your psyche for its motivations to remain alive and reach for the best quality of life that your limited resources will allow, despite the enormous effort required to accomplish
this. It is an investigation of character.
>
> > Scott, I don't have confidence in my character.
>
> It is not so uncommon that people who
have the greatest of characters fail to
recognize it. Look in the mirror. You will see what I'm talking about. I happen to be very impressed by your character.Scott, that is very kind of you. I haven't
been able to clean my house. The mirrors are filmy. I'll talk to my pdoc
tomorrow about this. Since I lost hope of a physical diagnosis, I don't know what to do. The fatigue is terrible. And to admit that I feel beaten is shameful to me. It's not something I can tell my husband. Telling my pdoc will be tough enough.Thanks for writing, thanks for listening.
fb
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
>
Posted by maxime on November 4, 2010, at 21:23:18
In reply to does anyone not want to get better?, posted by floatingbridge on November 4, 2010, at 13:57:21
> Sometimes I feel a great 'no'. Just no.
>
> Lately, I am so tired and disapointed, when I:m honest, I feel that I don't want to get better. I feel myself sinking, and that's become easier than plodding on.
>
> Has anyone else felt (or feel) this way?
>
>I know this feeling all too well. I get into such a bad space that I just want the depression to consume me completly. A part me wants that because then I would have a valid excuse (in my opinion) to kill myself.
Posted by maxime on November 4, 2010, at 21:24:52
In reply to Re: does anyone not want to get better? » floatingbridge, posted by SLS on November 4, 2010, at 15:59:52
Wow Scott, I really relate to what you wrote. That is exactly how I feel.
Posted by SLS on November 5, 2010, at 6:20:11
In reply to Re: does anyone not want to get better?, posted by floatingbridge on November 4, 2010, at 21:18:04
> > Do you feel doomed?
>
> Yes, sometimes. Being raised with an apocalypse loving family.
> >
>
> > Our time here is limited, and the losses of past years are irrecoverable. Time continues relentlessly. What guarantees are there that anything will change in the future? None.
> >
> Yes. I can barely bare it.
>
> > Do you experience significant anhedonia?
> >
> I'm not sure. It was rated significant in Jan at Stanford--I couldn't tell. What is intolerable now is that I can experience some pleasure, maybe even daily, but the remainder I am outside of it. Just tiny windows.
> > How is your anxiety level?
> It's increased, and I'm taking 1.5 xanax xr daily and extra as needed. For the past few weeks I had been having ptsd triggers, like trapdoors. Very fruitful on one hand, but frightening.
>
> >
> > > > If I were to act the way I feel, I would remain mute and stare into space; not doing the things necesssary to
> survive independently. Somehow, it sounds more comfortable and peaceful to give up and to no longer push. The effort to function and remain a part of society is immense and can be overwhelming. Such effort is nothing short of heroic.
>
>
> But Scott, how does someone keep on? I don't think I am that strong.
> >
> >
> > > You've dealt with this for sometime. Have you been here before? I guess you have. Does this sort of crisis reoccur?You have found something worthwhile?
> > >
> > > > Push, push, push.
> > > >
> > > > It is always push, push, push.
> > > >
> > > > It gets old.
> > >
> > > Yes, very, very old.
> > > >
> > > > Why bother?
> >
> > > I really am not sure. My child. But even that can not be enough (theoretically speaking today).
> >
> > > > To discover the answer to this question is to examine your psyche for its motivations to remain alive and reach for the best quality of life that your limited resources will allow, despite the enormous effort required to accomplish
> this. It is an investigation of character.
> >
> > > Scott, I don't have confidence in my character.
> >
> > It is not so uncommon that people who
> have the greatest of characters fail to
> recognize it. Look in the mirror. You will see what I'm talking about. I happen to be very impressed by your character.
>
> Scott, that is very kind of you.> I haven't been able to clean my house. The mirrors are filmy.
I know it is hard, but I think you will feel better if you learn to define yourself by what you ARE rather than by what you DO - or fail to do.
> The fatigue is terrible. And to admit that I feel beaten is shameful to me.
Ah. A perfectionist? You demand more of yourself than you would of anyone else.
> It's not something I can tell my husband.
I'm sorry to hear that.
I know you feel beaten. Chronic major depression (if that is what you have) will make you feel that way, whether you are truly beaten or not. Perceptions in depression are skewed towards the negative without having recognition of the positive. I believe you have some insight into this, as you used the word,"feel" rather than "are" beaten". Just know that your energies are going to wax and wane, and that you will again have the psychic energies and drive to fight again.
Sometimes, "giving in" to the depression is to discover acceptance of its power. You can then accept yourself, despite your frustration and demoralization at not being able to achieve those things that you expect and demand of yourself.
Despite your present feelings of defeat and weariness, the energy to fight will eventually reappear. It is a part of your character that you will seize upon this energy and use it to survive and perhaps even enhance the quality of your life. In the meantime, be merciful with yourself.
- Scott
Posted by floatingbridge on November 5, 2010, at 11:12:16
In reply to Re: T--t-t-t-t-t-t-truth, posted by sigismund on November 4, 2010, at 19:13:45
> Opening up and being vulnerable (as with letting go) isn't something that can be willed.
>
> In our society there is simply too much that is attempted by effort of will.There, too? I thought it was confined to the manifest destiny of the colonies and the wild wild west. Peculiarly American.
Posted by floatingbridge on November 5, 2010, at 11:23:59
In reply to does anyone not want to get better?, posted by floatingbridge on November 4, 2010, at 13:57:21
So I'm not alone in these bouts. I really appreciate people replying. Sometimes I have trouble with my game face--something my pdoc acknowledges served me well once upon a time (thus starts the spooky fairy tale) but is now dysfunctional and harmful.
I really, really thought 'this' would go away. It isn't. And here I am, another day, my husband and son in good moods. I'm still here, alive, trying, pleased to have some online friends to talk to. I have a pdoc I love who I see on about an hour.
Thank you.
fb
Posted by sigismund on November 5, 2010, at 13:56:15
In reply to Re: T--t-t-t-t-t-t-truth » sigismund, posted by floatingbridge on November 5, 2010, at 11:12:16
>There, too? I thought it was confined to the manifest destiny of the colonies and the wild wild west. Peculiarly American.
The original idea comes from Leslie Farber, a New York psychoanalyst from the 60s who wrote a wonderful little book called something like 'Sex drugs suicide and the good life'. I can't see that around anywhere and he died a long time ago but there is on Amazon "The Ways of the Will". He spent time writing about how psychiatry unfortunately sometimes made the willfulness worse. Then there was William Burroughs's amusing thought that if the average American could, he would hop down into his digestive system and shovel the sh*t out his *rs* (if you will excuse my French).
Are we the same here? It is the most interesting thing about Babble for me. I'm not sure. There are lots of American refugees here where I live, anyway.
America was started by religious dissidents. Australia started as a prison. You have names like Springfield. We have names like Useless Loop and Mt Misery. You had a revolt over taxes. We had a revolt over rum. It took a long time to subjugate the Indians. We were quicker. Al Sweringen in the wonderful 'Deadwood' talks about his life (obviously in the American west) and mentions he spent a couple of years in Australia. 'That was a waste of time' he says.
Posted by floatingbridge on November 5, 2010, at 14:16:55
In reply to Re: T--t-t-t-t-t-t-truth » floatingbridge, posted by sigismund on November 5, 2010, at 13:56:15
> He spent time writing about how psychiatry unfortunately sometimes made the willfulness worse.
Sigi, I hadn't heard this. How interesting. Hmmm. Can you say more, or perhaps I'll Google around a bit.
> 'That was a waste of time' he says.
Because it's culturally 'dull'? I've heard it is extraordinarily beautiful....
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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