![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 41. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Phillipa on October 1, 2010, at 14:01:58
Used to do fine and work productively on just low dose benzos since added SSRI's or SNRI's can't get off them though not depressed just worse anxiety. Have added and stopped per pdoc lamictal, trileptal and vaious other meds. Deplin was one. Even Vita B now aggitates me so since I went up 2 years ago from 25mg of luvox to 50mg luvox anxiety worse and now since added 5mg of lexpro to it I find I'm even more agitated. I feel the addition of ad's to benzos makes things worse and dependant on the ad you added as harder to try and stop them then benzos. With a benzo I can just drop the dose and am fine. Not so for me with the ad's. So I do feel they change your brain. Phillipa
Posted by Christ_empowered on October 1, 2010, at 14:49:21
In reply to Experiment of own on SSRI's, posted by Phillipa on October 1, 2010, at 14:01:58
I had more problems with antidepressants than I did with stimulants, benzos, or neuroleptics. I don't understand why they're still being sprayed on people so indiscriminately, given that doctors now know they're not much better than placebo.
Posted by bleauberry on October 1, 2010, at 16:43:26
In reply to Experiment of own on SSRI's, posted by Phillipa on October 1, 2010, at 14:01:58
I think we've only seen the weird backlash effects of ssris start to show up in the last couple years or so. No doubt something weird is happening there.
Posted by linkadge on October 1, 2010, at 17:17:36
In reply to Re: Experiment of own on SSRI's, posted by bleauberry on October 1, 2010, at 16:43:26
>I think we've only seen the weird backlash >effects of ssris start to show up in the last >couple years or so. No doubt something weird is >happening there.
Its a bit of hindsigh bias and the "Emperor's New Cloths" / groupthink. When there is no scientific 'data' to support a particular view, people just asume their experiences are their own.
Why am I feeling "more" depressed? I don't know, this drug is an "antidepressant" it can't do that. Its been approved by the "FDA" and given to me by my "doctor", that means its the real deal, therefore I'm the one to blame for the side effects or lack of response.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on October 1, 2010, at 19:51:05
In reply to Re: Experiment of own on SSRI's, posted by linkadge on October 1, 2010, at 17:17:36
Yes it is my fault and the guilt starts and adds to feelings of anxiety/depression. Phillipa
Posted by bulldog2 on October 2, 2010, at 7:50:42
In reply to Re: Experiment of own on SSRI's, posted by bleauberry on October 1, 2010, at 16:43:26
> I think we've only seen the weird backlash effects of ssris start to show up in the last couple years or so. No doubt something weird is happening there.
I think we have to take into consideration what we hear in this forum and what is happening in the general public.
The people who tend to seek out this forum are trd people who are having problems finding relief from their symptoms so I will say we have a lot of trd people here.
From what I've read most people in here have numerous treatment failures, bad side effects, withdrawal effects etc. That is not to say these experiences are not real and that people outside this forum do not experience these problems. HOWEVER I have no doubt the percentage of people in here with negative experiences is far greater than the general public. People doing well on their meds do not come to this forum to report their positive experiences.
I think ssris are still being handed out quite frequently by many different types of docs and many patients are doing well on them.
That being said I think for the severely depressed ,maois for those who can tolerate them, are the most effective ads and of the tcas clomipramine is the most effective.
I think ssris were meant to fill the niche for mild to moderately depressed who never would have considered an older type ad. I will concede that docs are now seeing these drugs are not quite as benign as once thought.
Posted by linkadge on October 2, 2010, at 8:31:07
In reply to Re: Experiment of own on SSRI's » bleauberry, posted by bulldog2 on October 2, 2010, at 7:50:42
>I think we have to take into consideration what >we hear in this forum and what is happening in >the general public.
I partially agree with you, but:
A lot of people are prescribed SSRIs for mild - moderate depression by GPs. This type of depression tends to get better on its own, and is more sensitive to the placebo effect.
The indcidence of side effects (i.e. sexual dysfunction) was grosly underestimated by drug companies. Package inserst say/said ~13% had sexual dysfunction. New questionaires and trials suggest that 60%+ have sexual dysfunction. This calls into question the estimates of efficacy too.
Pooling all clinical trial data (including unpublished trials) suggests that SSRI's are only very marginally better than placebos. These groups were not treatment-resistant. So, unless new, real-world data comes to refute this, this is the only large scale data we have. Catie was not placebo controlled.
I guess what I am saying is that I don't like to assume. Sure, you can assume that psychobabble is not representitive, and that those in the real world do better on SSRI's but what data do we have to support this? Yes, I know people who have got better on SSRI's too, but would they have had an equal response to a placebo?
Linkadge
Posted by bulldog2 on October 2, 2010, at 10:16:04
In reply to Re: Experiment of own on SSRI's, posted by linkadge on October 2, 2010, at 8:31:07
> >I think we have to take into consideration what >we hear in this forum and what is happening in >the general public.
>
> I partially agree with you, but:
>
> A lot of people are prescribed SSRIs for mild - moderate depression by GPs. This type of depression tends to get better on its own, and is more sensitive to the placebo effect.
>
> The indcidence of side effects (i.e. sexual dysfunction) was grosly underestimated by drug companies. Package inserst say/said ~13% had sexual dysfunction. New questionaires and trials suggest that 60%+ have sexual dysfunction. This calls into question the estimates of efficacy too.
>
> Pooling all clinical trial data (including unpublished trials) suggests that SSRI's are only very marginally better than placebos. These groups were not treatment-resistant. So, unless new, real-world data comes to refute this, this is the only large scale data we have. Catie was not placebo controlled.
>
> I guess what I am saying is that I don't like to assume. Sure, you can assume that psychobabble is not representitive, and that those in the real world do better on SSRI's but what data do we have to support this? Yes, I know people who have got better on SSRI's too, but would they have had an equal response to a placebo?
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>I do agree with you that the efficacy of ssris is very questionabel. I myself would only take one as part of a combo. I believe p-docs themselves are beginning to question them as they tend to get more serious cases that are meeting with failure. Hence we see more combos in an attempt to achieve remission.
What I do question is the nature of horror stories of sides reported here as opposed to the percentage of these events that might occur in the general public. I think a stranger wandering into this forum might get a skewed version of what happens when an ssri is taken.
People who have had very bad sides tend to seek out forums to vent or to warn others of what might happen to them. The problem is some report every bad event that has happened to them while on the drug(ssri) even months or years later. I myself and many others I know who have been on ssris have never suffered some of the permanant sides reported here. In reality many of the people here may continue to suffer from continuing mdd which by itself can cause many psychosomatic disorders.
I think askapatient may give a more balanced viewpoint. The drug is given a rating and than the patient gives pros and cons of the medication.
I think that is what Olivia was alluding to the other day. I don't think she was being pro med or anti med but was looking for a more scientific discourse on pychotropic meds. There seems to be more of a group emotional tone to reporting things. Than there are a couple posters who may have an agenda who post on every thread day after day.
I think we need a more scientific method to validate these reported sides. People with mental illness tend to suffer more from psycosomatic disorders in general. Rather than think their dysfunction may be causing their symptoms the med is blaimed.
Right now this forum seems to be leaning towards med bashing and human nature being what it is people will pile on. This can certainly lead one to the conclusion these are drugs from hell. There was a time or I seem to remember one where there was a very rational approach to reporting experiences.
Posted by Phillipa on October 2, 2010, at 11:15:39
In reply to Re: Experiment of own on SSRI's, posted by bulldog2 on October 2, 2010, at 10:16:04
How can you say that those that don't respond to ad's have more psychosomatic problems if so that would be wonderful that would mean no depression/anxiety is the way I read it but could definitely be wrong. Personally I just feel nothing from Ssri's. No side effects at all. So what I've been saying is why take them if going off them is when the side effects seem to hit. Even my neighbors that have responded positively were advised by their docs that when crisis was over time to discontiue as trials for weeks and that is when the scientic seems to end. What is needed is long term trials. So much lately it seems has been written on brain changes after using ad's or having to add meds many at times to try for an effect. Hence I'm concerned about long term effects. Like too long of aspirin can cause stomach bleeding. No side effects just not being able to stop them. Like the first cigarette for some is good and then smoking becomes a habit. Not sure if I'm making sense but tried. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on October 2, 2010, at 11:18:26
In reply to Re: Experiment of own on SSRI's » bulldog2, posted by Phillipa on October 2, 2010, at 11:15:39
That was supposed to read I feel that if pschopsymatic not How can you say. Sorry didn't mean to offend. Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on October 2, 2010, at 11:23:03
In reply to Re: Experiment of own on SSRI's, posted by linkadge on October 2, 2010, at 8:31:07
Link I didn't read back first my fault but you said exactly what I wanted to say. Well said. Phillipa
Posted by sailboat77 on October 2, 2010, at 13:35:07
In reply to Re: Experiment of own on SSRI's » linkadge, posted by Phillipa on October 2, 2010, at 11:23:03
I agree, SSRI's are relied upon too heavily. I know that they bring relief to a lot of people with moderate or mild depression, but SSRI"s just don't work with Treatment-Resistant Depression. I'm basing this conclusion on my own experiences and the experiences of other severely depressed persons.
On a positive note, I am truly grateful for this forum because I've never had anyone to relate to with my Treatment-Resistant Depression. Having depression alone is sad and lonely, but having TRD is that much more isolating. It's comforting to have someone to relate to. Also, it's tremendously helpful to hear stories about alternative medicines that seem to break the TRD barrier.
I hope I'm not speaking too brash--I've only been on the forum for 1 week. After 4 years of a depressive and painful college experience, I'm hoping to get some ideas on new avenues of action.
Thanks again to everyone.
Posted by linkadge on October 2, 2010, at 14:54:00
In reply to Re: Experiment of own on SSRI's, posted by bulldog2 on October 2, 2010, at 10:16:04
>Right now this forum seems to be leaning towards >med bashing and human nature being what it is >people will pile on. This can certainly lead one >to the conclusion these are drugs from hell. >There was a time or I seem to remember one where >there was a very rational approach to reporting >experiences.
I disagree. I think that people have believed their doctors when they are told that a particular side effect cannot be related to the medication. People have believed the drug companies which tout 75% success rate of their drug. People have believed that depression is due to "low serotonin" and that a pill will correct that imballance. The problem is not that people are med bashing; instead they are starting to think for themselves.
I think that, today, people are feeling more liberated to say how the drugs are infact affecting them, as opposed to blaming themselves and believing their doctors about not responding like they "should". 15 years ago, people would have laughed at the idea that olanzapine can cause diabetes. "No, no silly patient, gaining 100 lbs is due to your underlying illness, not zyprexa". Now, there are large scale class action suits on the very issue. 15 years ago no doctor would believe you if you said you were addicted to paxil. Now you've got websites with hundreds of thousands of signatures attesting to the fact that it can.
I don't think this is med bashing, I think the internet has just liberated people to believe themselves and their own bodies' response.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on October 2, 2010, at 15:01:25
In reply to Re: Experiment of own on SSRI's » bulldog2, posted by Phillipa on October 2, 2010, at 11:15:39
Phillipa has an excellent point.
When people start to feel good on a medication, there is a tendancy to **tell everbyody**. The patient goes online and posts their fabulous reviews of the medication.
Does this patient still feel fabulous 6 months later, 12 months later, 10 years later?
Most of the positive reports you see on these "rate my medication" websites are along the lines of: "I just started lexapro 3 weeks ago and I feel awesome".
Well, I had some initial euphoria too when I initially took celexa. If you had asked me then what I thought of it, you'd get a great review. Things have changed though.
Thats the problem with rating sites vs. forums like this. On a rating site, you see a static "one time" rating of a medication. On this board however, we see how the effects of a medication *change* all the time.
How many times has a poster on pbabble said something along the lines of "drug x was working great for 3 weeks then......"
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on October 2, 2010, at 15:03:54
In reply to Re: Experiment of own on SSRI's, posted by sailboat77 on October 2, 2010, at 13:35:07
>I hope I'm not speaking too brash--I've only >been on the forum for 1 week. After 4 years of a >depressive and painful college experience, I'm >hoping to get some ideas on new avenues of >action.
This is it. I would argue that those with TRD are *more* likely to remain iscolated and not give their impressions of a medication.
Those who respond are the ones that want to tell everbody how grrrrreat lexapro is!!!!!
Linkadge
Posted by bulldog2 on October 2, 2010, at 16:47:58
In reply to Re: Experiment of own on SSRI's, posted by linkadge on October 2, 2010, at 15:03:54
> >I hope I'm not speaking too brash--I've only >been on the forum for 1 week. After 4 years of a >depressive and painful college experience, I'm >hoping to get some ideas on new avenues of >action.
>
> This is it. I would argue that those with TRD are *more* likely to remain iscolated and not give their impressions of a medication.
>
> Those who respond are the ones that want to tell everbody how grrrrreat lexapro is!!!!!
>
>
> Linkadge
>Blatantly wrong! You based you statement on what one new person said. That is not the scientific method. It is known and often said this forum is largely composed of trd people. That imples treatment failures. If all the happy people proclaiming how well their ad is working it is not here. In private correspondance people have commented on the negative tone in here.
Also almost always when people get well they leave.
Seriously that is like saying a hospital is mostly healthy people. This is like a hospital. People come here and are looking for answers. Once they get their info they're out of here.Yes big pharma lied and manipulated the truth. The old maois and tcas have a better chance of working. So use them if necessary. The ssris can be used as add on. One p-doc that many have read uses zoloft plus nortriptyline. So there are three decent old ads and combos to work with.
You yourself once old med that clomipramine is a fine drug. Elavil works. You may not like the maois but for some trd they actually work. Go to askapatient and there is a one to five rating on many meds and patient reviews.
There is large volume of people that rate some drugs. I think that will give a better feeling about a drug. We have a small volume of people that post on babble and some keep posting the same thing. That is like voting multiple times for the same candidate. Not scientific and not accurate.
Being angry and venting over and over is not productive. Big pharma will give you what they chose to. Lying and manipulation is criminal. But the capitalist way is making a profit. The better the product the more money they make. This reminds me of the war on cancer. They just can't figure this thing out. It's to their advantage to find the silver bullet. Right now they just can't figure it out. It's not a plot or something they're doing on purpose. Drugs that don't work hurt the bottom line. They bent the truth and as I said that is criminal and should be pursued if laws were broken.
Time to move on and look for things that work. Right now my percocet, neurontin, and chocolate mocha work for me. Maybe in a couple months I will find a new combo. But ssris are old news. I don't like them for various reasons.
But our time is better spent looking for things that work. There are enough meds out there that may actually help or be used in combo. What big pharma did is old news.
That was what Olivia was talking about and I think you missed her point of view. I want to know what works and not what just doesn't work. I look in alternative and in the med section I look for unconventional approaches. I've stopped reading the other stuff. I do get it.
Posted by bulldog2 on October 2, 2010, at 16:55:34
In reply to Re: Experiment of own on SSRI's, posted by linkadge on October 2, 2010, at 15:03:54
> >I hope I'm not speaking too brash--I've only >been on the forum for 1 week. After 4 years of a >depressive and painful college experience, I'm >hoping to get some ideas on new avenues of >action.
>
> This is it. I would argue that those with TRD are *more* likely to remain iscolated and not give their impressions of a medication.
>
> Those who respond are the ones that want to tell everbody how grrrrreat lexapro is!!!!!
>
>
> Linkadge
>Really stop being so angry. You have to deal with the crap that life dishes out. You just sound so pissed off all the time. I'm not pro med nor anti med. But being mad all the time about what the pharm companies did is not going to make me feel better.
Well goodbye to babble. Of course I will be banned. There actually was a time where there was intelligent discourse about meds. The fact that new drugs were overhyped doesn't mean that has to stop. If anything there is a greater need to search for what works. I guess you just want to wallow in your self pity. Being angry will keep your mind and body sick no matter what herbs or foods you eat.
Be well to all who wish to be well.
Posted by twinleaf on October 2, 2010, at 18:46:18
In reply to Experiment of own on SSRI's, posted by Phillipa on October 1, 2010, at 14:01:58
Are you saying that you no longer need luvox or lexapro but cannot get off them because of withdrawal symptoms? I guess we all know that most people have some withdrawal symptoms, ranging from mild to severe, when withdrawing from SSRIs and SNRIs. Because you are on low doses, it shouldn't be too bad or prolonged. I would think the important factor in deciding wether to stay on them or discontinue would be whether or not you and your doctors feel that you NEED them. Perhaps I missed something in your message,
Posted by Phillipa on October 2, 2010, at 19:33:11
In reply to Re: Experiment of own on SSRI's Philippa, posted by twinleaf on October 2, 2010, at 18:46:18
Twinleaf you got it right. I've already started cutting the lexapro down in half. First day some withdrawal today better. Pdoc has wanted me off luvox for years and thought lexapro might help but am finding that it dosen't help with the getting off luvox just adds another med that just kind of dulls feelings and I do not want dead feeling. Hence remember when on a mere 25mg of luvox felt so much better and just valium 15mg and it's a weak benzo. Thanks for getting what I was trying to say. I've never been depressed just super anxious and kind of OCD. And benzos alone allowed me to live productively for many many years. Phillipa.
Posted by linkadge on October 2, 2010, at 20:51:56
In reply to Re: Experiment of own on SSRI's » linkadge, posted by bulldog2 on October 2, 2010, at 16:47:58
>Blatantly wrong! You based you statement on what >one new person said. That is not the scientific >method.
How about responding to more than one of my points.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on October 2, 2010, at 21:04:10
In reply to Re: Experiment of own on SSRI's » linkadge, posted by bulldog2 on October 2, 2010, at 16:47:58
>There is large volume of people that rate some >drugs. I think that will give a better feeling >about a drug.
Large volume doesn't mean anything. The key here is that for any degree of accuracy, patients must be sampled randomly. If you do go to ask patient, you will notice a few things. For one, there is a relative absense of reports from 3-6 month range. This indicates that a large majority of patients don't make it past the first few weeks on the drug.
In other words, although the sample is large, its not really representitive due to the fact that there is a relative absense of the very group of people who would give a negative report (i.e. the people who stop taking it!!)
>Not scientific and not accurate.
Nothing is scientific and accurate! As I was saying above, the only scientific and accurate way to tell whether the medication actually works (better than placebo) is with a double blind placebo controlled study. We do have those, but they don't really support your viewpoint too well. Other than double blind, placebo controlled studies, its really just speculation.
Self reports are not scientific. For example, sure people might give lexapro a rating of 3.4 out of 4, but what if a population (the same size) was given a placebo? What if the rating of the placebo was 3.3? All of a sudden lexapro doesn't look so great. Perhaps the only reason lexapro is rated higher than other SSRIs is because its the "drug du jour" and the fact that it generally is more tollerable than other SSRIs.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on October 2, 2010, at 21:05:57
In reply to Re: Experiment of own on SSRI's » linkadge, posted by bulldog2 on October 2, 2010, at 16:47:58
>Being angry and venting over and over is not >productive.
Tell me this. Which is less productive: being angry and venting, or being angry and venting about somebody who is being angry and venting?
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on October 2, 2010, at 21:07:44
In reply to Re: Experiment of own on SSRI's, posted by bulldog2 on October 2, 2010, at 16:55:34
>There actually was a time where there was >intelligent discourse about meds.
Yeah, I know. That was before you stepped into the argument.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on October 2, 2010, at 21:17:36
In reply to Re: Experiment of own on SSRI's, posted by linkadge on October 2, 2010, at 21:07:44
Can we call this a discussion please? That's what it was meant to be. Each of our experiences like the good old days. Thanks guys. Phillipa
Posted by weatherfreak on October 2, 2010, at 22:35:45
In reply to Re: Experiment of own on SSRI's » linkadge, posted by Phillipa on October 2, 2010, at 21:17:36
I have found SSRI/SNRI's to be totally horrid for me personally, I don't ever have problems with tapering benzo's, stims or opiates BUT SSRI/SNRI's leave me a total basket case when I have to adjust the dose or come off them.
That's why I haven't put one in my mouth since 2007 and never ever will again. They don't work for me and never will. The withdrawal is just hell for me. Cold turkey or tapering doesn't make a single difference to me either with these drugs.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.