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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by linkadge on August 24, 2010, at 17:24:13
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens, posted by morgan miller on August 24, 2010, at 16:05:37
Actually no Morgan. I've been off drugs for about 3 weeks now and doing ok for the moment. I'm not really bitter about anything.
As for minfulness therapy...I agree with iforgotmypassword. It does seem like fluff.
Its easy to sit and reflect on life and your problems *when you can control your mind*. Most people with severe mental illness cannot control their mind. If they could, they could just snap out of it.
Linkadge
Posted by morgan miller on August 24, 2010, at 18:18:48
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens » morgan miller, posted by linkadge on August 24, 2010, at 17:24:13
> Actually no Morgan. I've been off drugs for about 3 weeks now and doing ok for the moment. I'm not really bitter about anything.
>
> As for minfulness therapy...I agree with iforgotmypassword. It does seem like fluff.
>
> Its easy to sit and reflect on life and your problems *when you can control your mind*. Most people with severe mental illness cannot control their mind. If they could, they could just snap out of it.
>
>
> LinkadgeSorry for passing judgment Linkage. I just feel like you often come off this way in your posts. Again, sorry if I misjudged. You really cannot ever tell exactly what the state of someone's mind or attitude is through text.
I think mindfulness in psychology is not about mind control and a fast solution. I'm sure you understand that. Mindfulness in psychology involves a long and often challenging process by which you try to connect with things that are at the root of what ails you. Through this connection and with the guidance of a therapist you are better able to process and heal from past experiences that have had an influence on the development and wiring of your psyche and brain chemistry. Unfortunately, not many people are willing to do this hard work. Everyone wants to take a little pill and just feel better. Even if they do end up feeling better, often the issues that reside deep within will still have a negative impact on their lives at some point, especially in close intimate relationships.
I do believe that one has to reach a point of being able to function at a certain level in order for both therapy and meditation to be effective.
Glad to hear you are doing well without medication. I have to say I envy your ability to run and stay active. It is something to feel good about.
Morgan
Posted by emmanuel98 on August 24, 2010, at 19:49:20
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens, posted by morgan miller on August 24, 2010, at 18:18:48
I think it depends on what your problems are. I have a hard time regulating emotions and tend to go from -- I am lonely -- nobody cares about me -- to I will kill myself. This is independent of my bouts of biological depression where I become virtually catatonic. Mindfulness helps me stay in the moment and watch these thoughts pass without becoming overwhelmed by them. Doing simple things like washing the dishes mindfully (not thinking about anything else) helps me get out of the downward cycles I fall into. It takes a lot a practice though. I am in a DBT group and see a DBT therapist every week. It's helped but I have to work hard at it. My p-doc (also my primary therapist) insists I work on DBT. Understanding root causes isn't enough. YOu have to break the cycle of negative ruminations that take you down and that means recognizing them and trying techniques to soothe yourself.
By the way, I disagree that this is fluff, not science. For Borderline Personality Disorder, DBT has been shown, empirically, to be superior to any other kind of therapy or drug treatment.
Posted by g_g_g_unit on August 24, 2010, at 23:04:31
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens, posted by emmanuel98 on August 24, 2010, at 19:49:20
are you referrering to mindfulness in the context of ACT therapy? i was enrolled in an ACT-therapy group course, but found it difficult to apply the techniques, because, while depressed, i completely lack the ability to regulate my attention. i tried explaining this to the supervisor, but she just kinda brushed me off.
Posted by Dinah on August 25, 2010, at 6:55:25
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens, posted by emmanuel98 on August 24, 2010, at 19:49:20
I agree. I don't think it's fluff so much as wisdom. Once you've started applying it, it starts to feel like common sense. I laughed when I recently reread the DBT manual and realized how certain things I learned in it I now have adopted as part of my own philosophy. It no longer feels like an external thing at all.
It helps keep problems at just the original problems, and not all the layered on problems we add to them.
But maybe different people are thinking of the term differently?
Posted by violette on August 25, 2010, at 7:23:39
In reply to I hate mindfulness, posted by linkadge on August 24, 2010, at 13:16:18
Link-I've read alot of what you write on this forum and I'd guess you might have OCPD traits (I recognize them as I have some too and read extensively about it)? 'Mindfulness' is sort of the arch enemy of an OCD personality; I never knew what it meant in the psychology field, but I do know that 'meditation' in general represents letting go of control of your thoughts/emotions.
I noticed after I developed OCPD traits in response to a traumatic situation (or maybe they were there already and got activated from emotional trauma), mindfulness suddenly seemed annoying to me and then I always skipped over reading about it (and still do). Before then, I was a spontaneous person, had no 'adjustment' difficulties or problems with change, and had practiced meditation. Having OCPD traits is now one of my worst symptoms-because for one it is much more clear to me now that my depression lifted.
The problem with OCPD traits is that when you try to control your thoughts/emotions too much for too long as that's what people do unconsciously, your brain gets weak and tired, and you end up with attention difficulties and lack of control of your thoughts-the very opposite of what one perhaps unknowningly, is trying to do. Then you get diagnosed with ADD and/or OCD anxiety. You can have OCD anxiety on top of OCPD traits-that's when things get really rough. Even though the inattention, procrastination, and lack of focus can be a trait of OCPD-many people just get treated for ADD or OCD anxiety instead. Then they come here looking for meds since those do not work good, when really, it's the OCPD traits that need addressed.
I don't even know if conventional psychiatrists would even pick up on it because OCPD is totally different than OCD. If someone thinks they may have OCPD trait(s) and wants to get better, but not want the therapy--I'd get a psychiatrist who is trained in psychoanalysis, but not do the therapy and see what they pick up on. I think they would be better with medication management regardless of whether or not you do the therapy-because if they are experienced, they would know which meds work for certain personality traits better than many psychiatrists who don't know alot about psychology.
And OCPD is one of the most common PDs...You don't have to have a PD to have some of the traits, but during times of stress, the traits come out more...Anyay, this personality trait is an asset to many as it helps create alot of good scientists. But it can be a curse because it can get much worse over time if not addressed. Your brain can only do this for so long, and people who have those traits will usually end up with depression later in life even though those same traits serve to help with accomplishments while young or younger.
A person with OCPD traits is probably not going to respond to 'mindfulness techniques' as core issues-the source of the symptoms-have to be addressed first. Only then will your mind lose its grasp over your thoughts, words, and behavior and you'll be free.
Posted by Maxime on August 25, 2010, at 14:27:35
In reply to I hate mindfulness, posted by linkadge on August 24, 2010, at 13:16:18
It's very hard that is for sure. I did a DBT programme and we did a whole module on Mindfulness. It was hard for me because I didn't want to be mindful. I wanted to block things out, not let them surface to the top.
If you can do it right (with practice), I think it's a very useful tool.
Posted by TenMan on August 25, 2010, at 16:51:31
In reply to I hate mindfulness, posted by linkadge on August 24, 2010, at 13:16:18
Mindfulness rocks! A classic example of the best things in life are not easily come by.
Posted by morgan miller on August 25, 2010, at 19:48:23
In reply to Re: I hate mindfulness » linkadge, posted by Maxime on August 25, 2010, at 14:27:35
> It's very hard that is for sure. I did a DBT programme and we did a whole module on Mindfulness. It was hard for me because I didn't want to be mindful. I wanted to block things out, not let them surface to the top.
>
> If you can do it right (with practice), I think it's a very useful tool.And if we don't allow things to come to the surface, we can never truly get better. Yes, it is very difficult, but also necessary at some point in the growing and healing process.
Posted by sigismund on August 26, 2010, at 1:38:20
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens » morgan miller, posted by linkadge on August 24, 2010, at 17:24:13
It 's been around for 3,000 years. Part of Buddhism. And other systems.
Posted by chujoe on August 26, 2010, at 7:13:55
In reply to it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens (nm), posted by iforgotmypassword on August 24, 2010, at 15:31:05
On what evidence do you base this sweeping judgement?
Posted by simcha on August 26, 2010, at 16:28:50
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens » iforgotmypassword, posted by chujoe on August 26, 2010, at 7:13:55
I hesitated to respond to this. I'm not sure if you are being tongue-in-cheek, Linkadge.
I am a big fan of mindfulness. Of course I use it all the time as a tool in providing psychotherapy. I have practiced it myself for many years.
Not everyone is suited to mindfulness. And becoming mindful is a difficult path.
I try not to knock things I don't like that work for others. Not everyone is the same and different tools work for different people. Mindfulness may not be your cup of tea. It's most certainly not just fluff and subjective nonsense.
There have been many scientific studies on the benefits of meditation and other mindfulness practices. I'm just not in the mood to search for them online at the moment.
Posted by violette on August 26, 2010, at 18:39:34
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens, posted by emmanuel98 on August 24, 2010, at 19:49:20
"I think it depends on what your problems are."
I totally agree with that, Emmanuel. I think different therapies for different people. For example, supportive therapy for one person can make another person worse.
"Understanding root causes isn't enough. YOu have to break the cycle of negative ruminations that take you down and that means recognizing them and trying techniques to soothe yourself."
It's enough for some. Though an intellectual understanding of the causes isn't what changes my inner state and motivations-it's emotional understanding from working through and re-experiencing the emotions with my T.
There's different ways of breaking the cycle for different people, that's for sure. I think some of the success can be attributed to faith-if you think religion will heal you, it can. If you think a certain therapy will, it will. If you believe art therapy will heal you, it might. If you find ways to apply it emotionally.
In addition to faith, whatever you believe in can become a self-fulfilling prophecy if one can apply whatever method is chosen. Symbolism might work well for creative types, applying concrete principles for another; heavily guided/instructional type therapies with homework for the next person....I do see certain therapies are deemed for successful for certain issues...but that's not even cut and dry. There are too many variables involved to be able to determine that as we are all unique.
Posted by sigismund on August 26, 2010, at 18:53:39
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens, posted by simcha on August 26, 2010, at 16:28:50
>It's most certainly not just fluff and subjective nonsense.
I'm not sure what the Buddhist position on the objective would be.
Posted by morgan miller on August 26, 2010, at 21:41:33
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens » emmanuel98, posted by violette on August 26, 2010, at 18:39:34
>"Understanding root causes isn't enough. YOu have to break the cycle of negative ruminations that take you down and that means recognizing them and trying techniques to soothe yourself."
>It's enough for some. Though an intellectual understanding of the causes isn't what changes my inner state and motivations-it's emotional understanding from working through and re-experiencing the emotions with my T.
Understanding root causes is never enough for anyone. It is just the beginning, a new awareness. After this, if the hard emotional work is not done in therapy, just being aware of what the root causes are will not change things.
Posted by morgan miller on August 26, 2010, at 21:44:31
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens, posted by morgan miller on August 26, 2010, at 21:41:33
Actually, knowing and understanding the root causes most likely does change things. Often it will allow feelings of sadness and anger come to the surface. This is when someone has to start processing these feelings and do the work necessary to heal and get better.
Posted by violette on August 26, 2010, at 22:11:12
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens, posted by morgan miller on August 26, 2010, at 21:41:33
Emotional understanding = insights. This is different from intellectual understanding. It works in psychoanalytic therapy. And yes, it is very difficult. But the 2 concepts are not the same.
Posted by morgan miller on August 26, 2010, at 22:40:16
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens » morgan miller, posted by violette on August 26, 2010, at 22:11:12
> Emotional understanding = insights. This is different from intellectual understanding. It works in psychoanalytic therapy. And yes, it is very difficult. But the 2 concepts are not the same.
Even with emotional understanding, there is some work that needs to be done. One may go through feelings of anger and sadness while doing this work. One may go through a period of feeling numb or neutral before they heal emotionally. This is the work, it may take a while. And yes, it is difficult, but well worth it.
Posted by violette on August 27, 2010, at 20:09:41
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens, posted by morgan miller on August 26, 2010, at 22:40:16
"Even with emotional understanding, there is some work that needs to be done. One may go through feelings of anger and sadness while doing this work. One may go through a period of feeling numb or neutral before they heal emotionally. This is the work, it may take a while. And yes, it is difficult, but well worth it"
Morgan,
I'm confused by what you are saying here. It's as if you are implying some specific 'technique' must be done in order to 'do work'.
I find it impossible NOT to do work almost every day in psychodynamic therapy...but the beauty of it is-it's individualized to what comes natural for a person, according to one's strengths and positive qualities, rather than some manual or defined 'tecnique' designed for the masses.
What specific 'work' are you referring to? Maybe I am just irritable, or maybe I am just misunderstanding you. I know you are going to school to be a therapist..but assumed, perhaps wrongly, you were in psychoanalytic therapy yourself.
Posted by emmanuel98 on August 27, 2010, at 20:18:19
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens, posted by morgan miller on August 26, 2010, at 22:40:16
For some people (like me) the same emotional responses occur again and again, no matter how well I understand them or how much I've worked through them. As my p-doc puts it, they were laid at an early age and are deeply etched in. This is what DBT is good for, because it works on the responses rather than the root causes, trying to break self-defeating cycles.
Posted by morgan miller on August 27, 2010, at 20:39:16
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens » morgan miller, posted by violette on August 27, 2010, at 20:09:41
Hey Violette, sorry for being vague, I've been too tired to give detailed and organized responses.
Actually I was studying psychology and planned on getting my master's in social work, but after a major agitated mixed episode a few years ago, I have not been able to make the recovery necessary to continue my studies.
Hmm, I guess I'm talking about the work that we need to do in the 6 days between our therapy sessions, not just the work that we do during the sessions. I am speaking of constantly being reflective, analytical, introspective, and compassionate. I am also speaking of allowing ourselves to feel what is deep withing us. We may have to go through a period of feeling angry or sad, or both. This may be followed by a period of feeling numb or neutral. We must confront things that are uncomfortable, that may make us feel anxiety. I remember when I was making some good progress in therapy, I went through a neutral phase where I was just allowing everything to sink in and I spent most of my weekend nights at home thinking about and processing what was going on inside me.
Does this better elucidate what I meant by "work"? Sorry I didn't make it more clear the first time around : )
And yes, I am in psychodynamic therapy at the moment. I also hope to be able to get back into the group I was in a few years ago, but I guess that will partially be up to my therapist.
Morgan
Posted by violette on August 27, 2010, at 21:02:15
In reply to Re: it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens » violette, posted by morgan miller on August 27, 2010, at 20:39:16
Morgan, sorry to hear about your troubles. I barely got through school with mental health issues. I understand the cognitive difficulties..I really hope things pick up for you, and most likely the will as you are working on your sh*t.
And being in psychodynamic therapy complicated things for me while in school...but I felt I had no better option. It's so provocative, I guess I assumed everyone goes through some sort of intense affect state between sessions every week. Then again, I think my therapist is always one step ahead of me-which is one of his assets.
If I had lower ego stength, when things get too intense, he adapts and becomes more supportive....that is perhaps the time when less 'work' is done....because it's not best to be done at those times. Even during those times, emotions are always worked through. pretty much daily, none the less. I don't understand how it can be avoided unless the therapist feels it's not in the patient's best interest.
Hey get some rest!
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 27, 2010, at 22:34:40
In reply to it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsens (nm), posted by iforgotmypassword on August 24, 2010, at 15:31:05
> it's fluff, science replaced w/ subjective nonsense
Please don't exaggerate.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person, and I'm sorry if this hurts you.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express yourself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by weatherfreak on August 31, 2010, at 20:38:09
In reply to I hate mindfulness, posted by linkadge on August 24, 2010, at 13:16:18
My pdoc asked me to try it yesterday, a 10 week course. I'm really bad at facing certain things and just fired my T for being way too confronting too quickly with CBT. He was like a jackhammer trying to get through reenforced concrete and triggered me off quite badly on numerous occasions.
I may need to reconsider, but if they have good staff it might be OK. I do like the principle behind it and my sister has had great success with it. Confused
Posted by violette on September 1, 2010, at 0:45:35
In reply to Re: I hate mindfulness, posted by weatherfreak on August 31, 2010, at 20:38:09
I still do not know what it is. Morgan, I know you explained it, it's not you-it's me. Can someone give me concrete examples of mindfulness in context of intense emotions? I'm feeling cognitively dense about the whole concept...just can't picture it, get a grasp on what exactly it is..and now sorta curious.
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