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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 41. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by wzlong_D on August 24, 2010, at 22:59:12
I started to take seroxat 3.5 years ago due to anxiety and insomnia. Not long after taking seroxat, I began to feel hard to concentrate , but I carried on because the directions said it woundn't hurt my cognitive ability. About 1.5 years ago, I confirmed that there was something wrong with my memory . My psychiatrist told me that that was a sign of depression and suggested me switch to another SSRI. But soon I realized that it was the SSRIs that made me forgetful, and I went off ALL ADs since then.
Now , I have got these cognitive problems:
memory loss
hard to concentrate
slow in reacting
lack of foresight,creativity
speech impediment. I stumble even if I just "say" a sentence in my mind.other synptoms include:
fatigue,laziness,lack of motivation
short sleep time, non-restful sleep
foggy brainI found several people of similar symptons on this board, HAS ANYONE OF YOU FOUND A WAY OUT ? I really need help ...
Sorry but English is not my mother tongue...
Posted by wzlong_D on August 25, 2010, at 1:23:46
In reply to Post SSRI side effects--anyone found a way out?, posted by wzlong_D on August 24, 2010, at 22:59:12
I've experienced another symptom that may be worth attention : about 1 month ago, I went to amusement park , and played some extremely exciting games such as The Mega Drop £¬and my head ached after any of those games, which was quite abnormal .
Posted by weatherfreak on August 25, 2010, at 4:57:57
In reply to Post SSRI side effects--anyone found a way out?, posted by wzlong_D on August 24, 2010, at 23:00:21
Hi and welcome.
As you probably know, everyone reacts differently to every medication on the market.
I also have bad reactions to SSRI and have found it takes me about 6 months to feel OK, never great though.
I personally think I have some permanent damage like you do. Mainly memory, speech (I now stumble over my words), bad concentration and fatigue. Very similar to what you are describing.
For me it's been 3 years since I took my last SSRI which was Zoloft. I have tried most SSRI/SNRI's I hate them.
There are some amazing people on here with fantastic knowledge, I hope they can help you.
I've been taking concentrated fish oil, which I do feel helps. I also take magnesium, vitamin D and CoQ 10 enzyme, all for hopefully restoring my memory one day.
One thing you have to remember is that this is just my experience. Even though those particular medications never helped me, they do help others.
Good luck in your search, I hope you find something.
Posted by Conundrum on August 25, 2010, at 8:29:26
In reply to Re: Post SSRI side effects--anyone found a way out? » wzlong_D, posted by weatherfreak on August 25, 2010, at 4:57:57
Hi,
I recently sent this to wzlong in an email but thought it could help people here as well. I also posted it on the alternative board so everyone could read it and because many remedies listed are natural or alternative.
I recently sent someone a list of things that helped with some of the lingering side effects after stopping prozac. I realized most of them were alternative medicine so I decided to post them here.
magnesium - helps with anxiety, now I no longer need it.
fish oil - can help with any remaining sadness.
Neuro Optimizer by Jarrow Formulas - Helps restore some feelings and improves cognitive effects, also helps with creativity. (may cause constipation)
low dose prozac - when I take 2.5 mg, (5mg every other day) prozac it helps concentration and gives me more interest in things. If I go higher than this dose it blunts emotions. (not too many side effects but can still effect libido at this dose)
Magnesium and Fish Oil had no side effects. I hope this list will benefit someone.
As far as stumbling over words and fatigue that can go away with time. I no longer really stumble with words and don't have any fatigue. The fatigue I have now is more mental. For example I could run around my block but I would continually slow down. Not because I couldn't do it but because my brain would lose focus or not really care. I can still do it though. I can ride my bike for miles. I think you will find this will go away with time. Concentration, memory, and anhedonia stuck with me, but everyone is different and I hope that you guys get better and a lot sooner than I did.
I think one of the main problems stopping an SSRI is continued high serotonin. I once read a study showing the number of serotonin transporters remains low after SSRI use. perhaps tianeptine could help with this?
Norepinephrine is important too. The most success I've had of recent is with drugs that increase norepinephrine. None are strong enough.
I've tried L tyrosine, NADH, mucana puriens, ritalin, and wellbutrin SR and none of those helped. Part of the reason is because they a) only really increase dopamine, and b) they don't work for a 24 hour period, which seems to be necessary to restore depletes neurotransmitters. For example I got a pleasant effect for a few weeks on pristiq, but nothing from immediate release ritalin or wellbutrin SR.
Right now I'm taking abilify which seemed to be helping for a little while but since my pdoc wants me to discontinue mirtazapine and I've been weening off I've noticed the effects diminishing. I believe its because norepinephrine is dopamine's secret weapon.
The following study shows that norepinephrine depletion inhibits dopamine release when exposed to morphine in rats. It also is necessary for dopamine release in the Nucleus accumbens.
http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/15/12/1877
http://www.pnas.org/content/104/12/5181.full
"Here we report evidence that prefrontal cortical norepinephrine transmission, through modulation of dopamine in NAc, is a necessary condition for motivational salience attribution to both reward- and aversion-related stimuli."
To explain this study in short. Mice are put in a square one side with something pleasant either chocolate, cocaine, or morphine. The other side has something unpleasant, lithium cloride.
After the normal sham treated mice are exposed to this stimulus they will spend more time in the side that had the pleasant substance (chocolate, cocaine, morphine) and less time in the lithium cloride side. Using microdialysis they found that norepinephrine is released in the prefrontal cortex in all of the situations, negative or positive.
However, mice with norepinephrine depletion can't tell the difference and spend more time in the lithium cloride side than sham treated mice.
This may explain why alcohol, oxycodone, and THC do nothing for me. Alcohol just makes me stare mindlessly and the other drugs make me feel kind of icky. When I was feeling a little less anhedonia 5 years ago they gave me a pleasant response. I never abused them. Just tried them to see if I could get some relief."Norepinephrine in the Prefrontal Cortex Is Critical for Amphetamine-Induced Reward and Mesoaccumbens Dopamine Release"
Posted by Phillipa on August 25, 2010, at 9:26:17
In reply to Things that may help post SSRI problems, posted by Conundrum on August 25, 2010, at 8:29:26
Gotta a long drive to pdoc who will not know what to suggest will leave it up to me feel like I'm dying as just stumble through life not feeling and when do terrified. If possible could you babblemail how to get off this dumb 50mg luvox and benzos. 40 years of benzos ridiculous. Sorry to hyjack this thread. Phillipa
Posted by bleauberry on August 25, 2010, at 15:37:53
In reply to Post SSRI side effects--anyone found a way out?, posted by wzlong_D on August 24, 2010, at 23:00:21
I don't think anyone can explain the post ssri syndrome, what causes it, or what to do about it. For sure many of us know it is real and horrible.
As mysterious as it is, it is also mysterious what helps make it go away. I have tried a ton of stuff.
The best of the bunch for post ssri syndrome...
LDN (1.5mg to start)
DLPA (60 mg to start)
or bothI think it all somehow plays into the opioid system, the noradrenergic system, and the immune system. All were adversely impacted by the artificially increased serotonin levels and blocked reuptake pumps. That's my best take on it anyway. All I know for sure is that the above approaches can be surprising, despite the inability to explain it.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on August 25, 2010, at 15:51:43
In reply to Re: Things that may help post SSRI problems » Conundrum, posted by Phillipa on August 25, 2010, at 9:26:17
>If possible could you babblemail how to get off this dumb 50mg luvox and benzos. 40 years of benzos ridiculous.
You already know how, Phillipa, you've been reading this board for a long time. Your taper off benzos gradually, by reducing the dose in small steps every couple of weeks.
Posted by Conundrum on August 25, 2010, at 17:09:50
In reply to Re: Post SSRI side effects--anyone found a way out?, posted by bleauberry on August 25, 2010, at 15:37:53
Is DLPA better than l-tyrosine? I've tried L-tyrosine and it did nothing. Are you still taking it or did you get a tolerance to is?
This was interesting on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylalanine"Phenylalanine uses the same active transport channel as tryptophan to cross the blood-brain barrier, and, in large quantities, interferes with the production of serotonin."
Maybe this interference makes Phenylalanine superior in producing catecholamines since serotonin interferes with their release.
What did LDN help with?
Like you have said everyone is different and its trial and error. I have to say drugs that just work on dopamine or only work for a short duration, think ritalin or wellbutrin, don't work for me. I'm taking 2.5 abilify and weening off mirtazapine, but it felt like it was doing something more and synergistic when I was at 45mgs mirt, I hope its just the weather.
Posted by SLS on August 25, 2010, at 17:29:01
In reply to Re: Things that may help post SSRI problems » Phillipa, posted by ed_uk2010 on August 25, 2010, at 15:51:43
> >If possible could you babblemail how to get off this dumb 50mg luvox and benzos. 40 years of benzos ridiculous.
What are your alternatives?
Do you wish to attempt to live a life without medical treatment?
- Scott
Posted by SLS on August 25, 2010, at 19:19:25
In reply to Re: Things that may help post SSRI problems » ed_uk2010, posted by SLS on August 25, 2010, at 17:29:01
Posted by MaybeSo on August 25, 2010, at 21:47:02
In reply to Post SSRI side effects--anyone found a way out?, posted by wzlong_D on August 24, 2010, at 22:59:12
First, did you taper off the drugs? That is, take a little smaller dose each week until you were off the drug? That is the best way to withdraw from a drug without bad effects.
If you are still feeling bad, you may want to try a short course of Prozac (fluoxetine). The Prozac regulates some of the transmitters that are being withdrawn from the drug, and due to its short half-life it is usually easier to withdraw from. That's how I got off Effexor when the withdrawal effects were bad.
I'm certainly not the smartest on this board, hopefully others will also post with suggestions and explanations.
Posted by morgan miller on August 25, 2010, at 22:48:22
In reply to Re: Things that may help post SSRI problems » ed_uk2010, posted by SLS on August 25, 2010, at 17:29:01
> > >If possible could you babblemail how to get off this dumb 50mg luvox and benzos. 40 years of benzos ridiculous.
>
> What are your alternatives?
>
> Do you wish to attempt to live a life without medical treatment?
>
>
> - ScottI'm thinking she might prefer better treatment options.
Posted by morgan miller on August 25, 2010, at 22:58:28
In reply to Post SSRI side effects--anyone found a way out?, posted by wzlong_D on August 24, 2010, at 23:00:21
I would go to Imminst.org and MindandMuslcle.net and search some threads for information on improving brain function. Also make a post on the nootropic or supplement forum at Imminst and on the neuroscience, health, and longevity forum at MindandMuscle.
Morgan
Posted by wzlong_D on August 25, 2010, at 22:59:04
In reply to Re: Post SSRI side effects--anyone found a way out?, posted by MaybeSo on August 25, 2010, at 21:47:02
Hi MaybeSo,first of all, thanks for your reply !
When I took Seroxat, the dose was quite low , generally 5mg/d (that is half a tablet every other day), or even less , because it really made me sleepy , while I was a college student and had to attend lectures.
However,To be frank, I didn't taper off the drug, but just stop it abruptly and then took half a tablet when I got "Brain shiver".What's worse is that when I got too much difficulty to fall asleep, I would get up and take another half tablet or one tablet.And once upon a time, I was so anxious that I took quite a large dose (maybe 20mg/d or 40mg/d) within 1 or 2 weeks.However, the symptons I am suffering now appeared before I totally went off Seroxat(Paxil), especially the concentration problem, which appeared less than one month after I the Seroxat.The memory problem appeared when I was regularly taking the med, however I just thought it was a result of insominia .So I don't think it's the way how I went off Seroxat that caused the problems I'm now suffering, I'm now quite certain it's Seroxat itself caused them .
When I told my problems to a psychiatrist, she suggeted just as you did: try fluoxetine ! and she assured me that my problems ware all caused by depression, NOT SSRIs.Then I took fluoxetine for about 1 week , and found no benefit.
It really disappointed me that almost all the Psychiatrists assert that SSRIs are safe and will never cause what I'm suffering...HOW SHOUD THEY KONW !!! what a common sense that our body will react to medicines and the subsequent changes may be irreversible !
Posted by wzlong_D on August 25, 2010, at 23:04:47
In reply to Re: Post SSRI side effects--anyone found a way out?, posted by morgan miller on August 25, 2010, at 22:58:28
Thanks for your suggestion. I'm now taking vitamins , fish oil,phosphatidyl choline, and royal jelly...hope they can help...
Posted by morgan miller on August 26, 2010, at 0:05:02
In reply to Post SSRI side effects--anyone found a way out? +raquo; morgan miller, posted by wzlong_D on August 25, 2010, at 23:04:47
Other things that may help:
Acetyl L Carnitine-improves memory/mental and physical energy
Citicoline(CDP choline)-improves cognition/mental energy
Rhodiola-New Chapter brand-mood booster/energy enhancer
Holy Basil-New Chapter brand-calming/uplifting/adrenal support
Cordyceps-energizing/immune boosting
Reishi-calming/energizing/immune boosting
Shisandra-adrenal support/liver healthAnd, EXERCISE! Exercise, especially brief 20 to 30 min moderate to intense periods of exercise, is the one of the best things you can do to rebuild your brain.
Morgan
Posted by Phillipa on August 26, 2010, at 0:08:48
In reply to Re: Things that may help post SSRI problems » ed_uk2010, posted by SLS on August 25, 2010, at 17:29:01
Scott gone all day to pdocs just going through mail no not looking for med free as too old now. I may have a strange pdoc by standards of what I read but she wants me to take 10mg of lexapro with the 50mg of luvox and the benzos which I have cut lower as seems I just sleep too much. She also said she's finding people are doing well with the no no of adding St Johns Wort and SAMe to an SSRI. She said don't worry about serotonin syndrome as some go up to 60mg of lexapro and luvox is up to 300mg. So adding up the serotonin of l0 and 50 isn't much. Sleepy now Phillipa
Posted by wzlong_D on August 26, 2010, at 4:00:00
As I described in http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20100821/msgs/959729.html, I'm suffering from Post SSRI Side Effect.
Now I've got such an idea: since all the SEs are caused by SRRI (Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor), and SSRE (Selective serotonin reuptake enhencer) works in a somewhat inverse way as compared to SSRI, so maybe it's possible that SSRE could reverse what SSRIs have done to my brain.My question is : Is there anybody who has tried SSRE in order to recover from Post SSRI SEs, especially cognitive impairment ?
Or: Is there anybody suffered cognitive impairment such as memory/concentration loss from SSREs(not SSRIs)?
PS:The only known drug of SSRE is tianeptine (Stablon, Coaxil, Tatinol).May everybody be all fine !
Posted by SLS on August 26, 2010, at 4:48:27
In reply to Re: Things that may help post SSRI problems » SLS, posted by Phillipa on August 26, 2010, at 0:08:48
> So adding up the serotonin of l0 and 50 isn't much. Sleepy now Phillipa
So, what will you do?
Did you want help discontinuing medication?
- Scott
Posted by Conundrum on August 26, 2010, at 5:46:08
In reply to Re: Post SSRI side effects--anyone found a way out? +raquo; morgan miller, posted by morgan miller on August 26, 2010, at 0:05:02
acetyl l carnitine and CDP choline are in neuro-optimizer. But it might be better to take them individually if you get side effects from it.
Acetyl L carnitine increase communication between brain hemispheres. When I first tried it I hadn't written any music in years.. Then I wrote almost an entire song after only taking it for a short time. Not a simple song. Not a simple song either. It had jazz chords, a rock riff in mixolydian mode( a scale that starts on So instead of Do), a chorus with a key change and more jazz chords. I had to stop cause I was constipated and back then I was affraid of long term effects so I didn't take magnesium with it to help, since I didn't want it to permanently effect my bowels. When trying it more recently it didn't help. It also made figuring out songs by ear a lot easier
Posted by Conundrum on August 26, 2010, at 5:59:48
In reply to Re: Things that may help post SSRI problems » SLS, posted by Phillipa on August 26, 2010, at 0:08:48
I'm not really an expert at getting off SSRIs I got off prozac but its half life is so long its very easy to get off. I do however know some sites that help with this.
One is the Yahoo group prozac awareness
You join and just ask the members for help.
Another is
www.paxilprogress.com
They seem to specialize in getting off SSRIs with short half lives and benzos as well.
Iknow they are advocates of only decreasing you dose by 5%. I don't know if luvox comes in a liquid form but that would help gradually taper down. They also say after you decrease a dose you should wait until your body feels stable then decrease. Those sites are antipsychiatry so you may find more support for stopping a drug than you would here.
Posted by morgan miller on August 26, 2010, at 11:17:01
In reply to Re: Post SSRI side effects--anyone found a way out? +raquo; morgan miller » morgan miller, posted by Conundrum on August 26, 2010, at 5:46:08
> acetyl l carnitine and CDP choline are in neuro-optimizer. But it might be better to take them individually if you get side effects from it.
>
> Acetyl L carnitine increase communication between brain hemispheres. When I first tried it I hadn't written any music in years.. Then I wrote almost an entire song after only taking it for a short time. Not a simple song. Not a simple song either. It had jazz chords, a rock riff in mixolydian mode( a scale that starts on So instead of Do), a chorus with a key change and more jazz chords. I had to stop cause I was constipated and back then I was affraid of long term effects so I didn't take magnesium with it to help, since I didn't want it to permanently effect my bowels. When trying it more recently it didn't help. It also made figuring out songs by ear a lot easierCool..I have it at my work so I might check it out. I think it has phosphatydilserine in it though. I don't think I respond well to PS. Thanks for sharing that!
Morgan
Posted by violette on August 26, 2010, at 12:12:02
In reply to Post SSRI side effects--anyone found a way out?, posted by wzlong_D on August 26, 2010, at 4:00:00
Psychotherapy cured my 'post-SSRI' syndrome. It took close to a year. It also brought about new symptoms of a different nature..(bipolar like symptoms) but when I compare how I felt then with now, these symptoms are not half as bad as the symptoms people here attribute to post-SSRI usage that I once had..because they cycle rather than remain constant. Plus they serve as a means to an end, serving as a useful tool so I welcome their expression..as enduring them then working through them with my therapist strengthens my mind bit by bit.
I think post-ssri syndrome is just another type of depression.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on August 26, 2010, at 13:38:19
In reply to Re: Things that may help post SSRI problems, posted by Conundrum on August 26, 2010, at 5:59:48
>I know they are advocates of only decreasing you dose by 5%.
I don't think this type of 'cookie cutter' approach is sensible. Patients should taper at the pace which best suits them. This is very individual and requires a certain amount of trial and error - awareness of common withdrawal symptoms is important so that the rate of tapering can be adjusted. It is sometimes necessary to taper very gradually.... but others find a relatively quick taper more suitable. For me, short-acting SSRIs can be tapered over about two weeks.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on August 26, 2010, at 14:07:01
In reply to Re: Post SSRI side effects--anyone found a way out? » wzlong_D, posted by violette on August 26, 2010, at 12:12:02
>I think post-SSRI syndrome is just another type of depression.
I don't know. Post-SSRI syndrome is a term which has no established definition. Because of this, I think it's best avoided.
If someone posts that they have post-SSRI syndrome, I have no idea what symptoms they are actually experiencing. It could be virtually anything. In addition, the true cause of most symptoms is never known. On the other hand, if someone describes exactly how they are feeling (and mentions that they believe these symptoms to be related to prior use of SSRIs), it's much easier to come up with useful suggestions.
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