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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Phillipa on June 13, 2010, at 19:39:55
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by former poster on June 12, 2010, at 23:19:40
Truthfully I didn't notice a think but 150 is such a baby dose. Phillipa
Posted by former poster on June 14, 2010, at 7:29:25
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by morganator on June 13, 2010, at 12:57:05
I'm afraid to take Zoloft because of the sexual side effects. This is a big issue for me since I turned 50. Every SSRI, SNRI causes severe ED that lasts for many weeks after discontinuation. I take "Adapton" (blue ling fish oil), Krill Oil, Sam-e, I ride my mountain bike 20 miles every other day, swim a mile. I start the day with a cup of green tea, raw honey and bee pollen, one ounce of goji juice. I'm taking so many supplements I can't even list them all. But one I have never tried is SJW. What brand do you recommend?
Posted by morganator on June 14, 2010, at 15:10:18
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by former poster on June 14, 2010, at 7:29:25
SJW- New Chapter's SC27 or Serofin, Kira, and Perika.
Well it sounds like your doing a lot of good things for yourself. I would also consider trying interval sprint training and Bikram Yoga as other options for optimizing physical health and hopefully translating to better more consistent positive mood. Another thing to consider is a long meditative stretch after any physical activity.
I don't blame you for not wanting to try Zoloft given your past experiences with SSRIs. There is a chance it may not impact you in the same way the others did. It may be worth a try. Some have reported increase libido on Zoloft at 100 mg or more. This may be due to the small amount of dopamine reuptake inhibition that may begin after 100 mg.
I would definitely give a good SJW brand a go. One problem is you may have to wear sunglasses during the day-mainly sunny days- to protect yourself from any phytoxicity. And, there is always the possibility that SJW will impact your libido the same way SSRIs and other antidepressants do.
I take tons of supplements too. Have you ever tried taking ginger, cayenne, and ginkgo biloba for sexual function? These may help with issues you encounter when taking antidepressants.
Good luck,
Morgan
Posted by morganator on June 14, 2010, at 15:16:46
In reply to Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by former poster on June 10, 2010, at 20:06:23
Have you ever tried a very low dose of lithium? Say 150 mg once in the morning and once in the evening?
What about lithium orotate or aspartate? These are the "supplement" versions of lithium. They may not be as potent but they may still help with mood.
Posted by former poster on June 15, 2010, at 0:15:05
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by morganator on June 14, 2010, at 15:16:46
> Have you ever tried a very low dose of lithium? Say 150 mg once in the morning and once in the evening?
>
> What about lithium orotate or aspartate? These are the "supplement" versions of lithium. They may not be as potent but they may still help with mood.Thank you for asking. Yes I have tried Lithium Orotate and it does produce the exact same blunting feeling. Even at minuscule doses. It feels like it takes away the ability to feel pleasure. The more Lithium I take the less pleasure and motivation I feel. Have I been in a state of mania since i was born? What is wrong with me?
Posted by former poster on June 15, 2010, at 0:28:51
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by morganator on June 14, 2010, at 15:10:18
I didnt know ginger and cayenne were helpful for those reasons. I will definitely give them a try. I do however take Ginko every day. I recently started taking Acetyl L-Carnitine / Alpha Lipoic acid combo that has made a big difference. I will try St. Johns wort soon. Thank you for your post
Posted by morganator on June 15, 2010, at 9:32:42
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by former poster on June 15, 2010, at 0:15:05
> > Have you ever tried a very low dose of lithium? Say 150 mg once in the morning and once in the evening?
> >
> > What about lithium orotate or aspartate? These are the "supplement" versions of lithium. They may not be as potent but they may still help with mood.
>
> Thank you for asking. Yes I have tried Lithium Orotate and it does produce the exact same blunting feeling. Even at minuscule doses. It feels like it takes away the ability to feel pleasure. The more Lithium I take the less pleasure and motivation I feel. Have I been in a state of mania since i was born? What is wrong with me?Maybe you have been on the manic side most of your life. Early stress and lack of proper nurture where probably contributing factors that triggered some of your manic symptoms(you were predisposed and it didn't take much to trigger your bipolar genes.)
What about a low dose of Depakote? I'm sure you've already tried it.
You could also try upping your fish oil intake. I just recently more than doubled mine and I really think I already feel better. I also take 40 mg fluoxetine(probably going to change or add a small dose of Nortriptyline to), 450 to 600 mg Lithium(starting 600 mg this week to see how I feel), and one 270 mg gel cap of New Chapter's SC27.
Remember, If you try one of the SJW brands, you will have to give it some time and you may feel side effects at first. If you feel a bit agitated or more anxiety at first try to tough it out and wait at least a month before switching to another brand. You may have to try all 3 brands before you find the right one. I've also heard that vitamin shoppe has a good quality extract. I know it sucks that we have to go through SJW trials like going through SSRI trials. Hopefully after a month or so of trying the first SJW brand you choose you will feel good enough to want to stick with it. It may actually take up to 2 months so try to be patient. If you try SC27, you probably will not need to go any higher than one gel cap. It is a pretty powerful brand. One good thing about it is that it has a low concentration of hypericin in it, the part of SJW responsible for phytotoxicity.
Posted by former poster on June 15, 2010, at 17:11:24
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by morganator on June 15, 2010, at 9:32:42
Maybe you have been on the manic side most of your life. Early stress and lack of proper nurture where probably contributing factors that triggered some of your manic symptoms(you were predisposed and it didn't take much to trigger your bipolar genes.)
You guessed right about the early stress and lack of proper nurturing. This is very disturbing. I'm in my 50's and have never been normal? Maybe its better just to live out the rest of my life this way? How long would I have to take Lithium or a mood stabilizer before I would feel good?
I read somewhere that the IQ of patients dropped significantly after starting mood stabilizers. This is also disturbing.
Posted by morganator on June 15, 2010, at 23:20:14
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by former poster on June 15, 2010, at 17:11:24
> Maybe you have been on the manic side most of your life. Early stress and lack of proper nurture where probably contributing factors that triggered some of your manic symptoms(you were predisposed and it didn't take much to trigger your bipolar genes.)
>
> You guessed right about the early stress and lack of proper nurturing. This is very disturbing. I'm in my 50's and have never been normal? Maybe its better just to live out the rest of my life this way? How long would I have to take Lithium or a mood stabilizer before I would feel good?
>
> I read somewhere that the IQ of patients dropped significantly after starting mood stabilizers. This is also disturbing.I've only had periods where I was somewhat normal. It sucks for sure. I think the combination of therapy and the right medication is the best we can do for ourselves. I don't think your I.Q. will drop from a low dose of lithium. You can't take it anyway since you are so sensitive to it. If anything, the stress, trauma, and bipolar episodes could all possibly contribute to lowering I.Q.
Posted by former poster on June 18, 2010, at 7:20:24
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by morganator on June 15, 2010, at 23:20:14
Everyone considering starting Lithium should check out this website:
http://www.sntp.net/drugs/lithium_breggin.htm
I don't mean to contradict you. I'm happy that Lithium works for you, but this paragraph describes how I felt while on Lithium:
The subjective experience was primarily one of indifference and slight general malaise. This led to a certain passivity. The subjects often had a feeling of being at a distance from their environment, as if separated from it by a glass wall.... Intellectual initiative was diminished, and there was a feeling of lowered ability to concentrate and memorize.... The assessment of time was often impaired; it was difficult to decide whether an event had taken place recently or some time ago. (Pp. 715-16)(4)
Posted by Phillipa on June 18, 2010, at 20:12:35
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by former poster on June 18, 2010, at 7:20:24
Interesting read no wonder my ex father in law went off the med routinely. Phillipa
Posted by former poster on June 19, 2010, at 0:36:03
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful? » former poster, posted by Phillipa on June 18, 2010, at 20:12:35
My Lithium horror story is watching my Mother get on Lithium. She came home from the hospital. From that day she was a different person. I felt so distant from her. Like a "glass wall" were between us. It was so tragic to me to see her this way. I became depressed after.
Posted by DocRon on June 22, 2010, at 17:16:27
In reply to Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by former poster on June 10, 2010, at 20:06:23
> I have tried lithium several times. Each time i get initial relief, then the blunting effect sets in. A helpless feeling of being in a chemical straitjacket. This is an unbearable feeling for me. I stop taking it after a few days. I once took it for 3 weeks. My social anxiety became extremely bad as I walked through the day without a personality, (erased from the lithium). It took me almost a decade to feel normal again. It was impossible to feel pleasure. If I won the lottery I would not even be able to smile. I had the same effect from other mood stabilizing drugs. Maybe to a lesser degree. I tried resperidal once and it made me psychotic. Same with Neurontin. I have decided to live with the moodswings, which are mostly feelings of deppresion.
Lithium is one of the most poisonous chemicals known to mankind. Did you know that ranchers fill a few sheep up with it and then release them? When the coyotes or wolves try to eat one the Lithium gets them SO deadly sick they will never touch a sheep again--and will "tell" the other coyotes and wolves about it! It nearly kills the dogs--it DOES kill the sheep eventually.
Still in all, people with BP do NEED it to descend from mania. Comparing the feeling on Lith with the feeling of mania...well, its like going from 150mph to -50mph very quickly. The feeling sucks--which is why med compliance among non-supervised BPD patients is so poor.
I can only sympathize. I DO know that over time it DOES get better and you can slowly titrate your dose down to where it "works" but does not make you feel like death. To do this though...you MUST take your meds and be honest with your doc!! They are more than happy to help bring your dosage down. I know it really sucks, and I am SO grateful that I don't have to live the hell that is BPD (yet) but you owe it to yourself to take your meds, start lowering them (with your doc)...you'll feel better faster than you think, I promise you.
Peace and good luck!
DocRon
Posted by former poster on June 23, 2010, at 0:30:47
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by DocRon on June 22, 2010, at 17:16:27
Thanks.. I'm not diagnosed BP. I tried lithium for mixed symptoms of T.R.Depression, insomnia and agitation. If you haven't been to this link, I really think you should read it before you try to talk anyone else into taking lithium.
http://www.sntp.net/drugs/lithium_breggin.htm
Posted by DocRon on June 23, 2010, at 12:16:41
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by former poster on June 23, 2010, at 0:30:47
Er, NOWHERE in my post did I extol the properties of lithium!! I said that, if on it, work with your doc to take AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE.
In fact, I made it quite clear that it is POISON.
BTW, the link you posted is to some whacked-out Scientologist's (I hate capatlizing that word) website...who buys right into the CoS b*llsh*t about "psychs" being evil.
Not exactly an unbiased source...for folks that are already on lithuim!
People, don't listen to some wacky cult member's BS...see your doc, please!!!
DocRon
Posted by jade k on June 23, 2010, at 14:57:38
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by DocRon on June 22, 2010, at 17:16:27
>
> Lithium is one of the most poisonous chemicals known to mankind. Did you know that ranchers fill a few sheep up with it and then release them? When the coyotes or wolves try to eat one the Lithium gets them SO deadly sick they will never touch a sheep again--and will "tell" the other coyotes and wolves about it! It nearly kills the dogs--it DOES kill the sheep eventually.
>
>
> DocRon
Doc Ron...you really have to stop promoting lithium like this :)You are right, BPD sucks and so do the meds needed for mood stabilization. However, I have seen up close and personal that they are sometimes a necessary evil :( Mania can be scary and dangerous.
~Jade
Posted by former poster on June 23, 2010, at 22:59:52
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by DocRon on June 23, 2010, at 12:16:41
All I can say is, I had high hopes for Lithium. I tried it many years ago. It gave me depersonalization, depression and much more problems. The feelings I experienced about it were described perfectly on that website, decades before I ever saw it. Thats why I chose the websit.
Maybe Lithium is for severe mania?? But definitely not for me. BTW: My mother was on Lithium and after many years on Li saw another psychiatrist. He immediately took her off the Lithium and said she should have never been put on it. "She is not bipolar" was the reason why. Go figure?? Want to hear more Lithium horror? I have lots of it!!
Posted by morganator on June 24, 2010, at 1:18:55
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by former poster on June 18, 2010, at 7:20:24
> Everyone considering starting Lithium should check out this website:
>
> http://www.sntp.net/drugs/lithium_breggin.htm
>
> I don't mean to contradict you. I'm happy that Lithium works for you, but this paragraph describes how I felt while on Lithium:
>
> The subjective experience was primarily one of indifference and slight general malaise. This led to a certain passivity. The subjects often had a feeling of being at a distance from their environment, as if separated from it by a glass wall.... Intellectual initiative was diminished, and there was a feeling of lowered ability to concentrate and memorize.... The assessment of time was often impaired; it was difficult to decide whether an event had taken place recently or some time ago. (Pp. 715-16)(4)Low doses of lithium are less likely to create such a state. There are also people that take very high doses that feel perfectly normal. Everyone reacts differently to everything. SSRIs never gave me any sexual issues and I always felt connected with my emotions on them. Then there are other people that experience sexual side effects and feeling of apathy.
Posted by morganator on June 24, 2010, at 1:34:20
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by DocRon on June 22, 2010, at 17:16:27
>Lithium is one of the most poisonous chemicals known to mankind.
I don't think that is an accurate statement. What about cigarette smoke, cyanide, alcohol, etc. People take ridiculously high doses and live the rest of their lives without any health issues. I do think that the very high doses used to treat mania are pretty toxic. I do not think low doses of lithium carbonate or lithium orotate are very toxic. You do know lithium is a naturally occurring element that is in some foods and in the drinking water of some cities. Of course it is present in water and food in trace amounts. Some believe that we should be getting 1 mg of elemental lithium in our diet daily. Lithium has been shown in several studies to be neuroprotective and to promote neurogenesis. Lithium also has antiviral and antimicrobial properties. Lithium is NOT one of the most poisonous chemicals known to man. In very low non toxic doses, lithium may be one of the most valuable naturally occurring elements to man.
Posted by former poster on June 24, 2010, at 7:42:40
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by morganator on June 24, 2010, at 1:18:55
This is really wonderful to learn that Lithium does work good for some people. I am very intrigued with the neuroprotective/regenerative properties. Many could benefit from that, myself included. Someday I might give it another try, maybe the Orotate form.
Posted by jade k on June 24, 2010, at 10:43:54
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by former poster on June 23, 2010, at 22:59:52
> All I can say is, I had high hopes for Lithium. I tried it many years ago. It gave me depersonalization, depression and much more problems. The feelings I experienced about it were described perfectly on that website, decades before I ever saw it. Thats why I chose the websit.
> Maybe Lithium is for severe mania?? But definitely not for me. BTW: My mother was on Lithium and after many years on Li saw another psychiatrist. He immediately took her off the Lithium and said she should have never been put on it. "She is not bipolar" was the reason why. Go figure?? Want to hear more Lithium horror? I have lots of it!!Hi former poster,
I'm really sorry to hear about your horrible experience with lithium and especially your mom. Its sucks to watch someone you care about become someone else on a med. Especially meds like lithium and the AAP's. It appears you and I have both been here (this site) before so not a surprise there is no shortage of horror stories about lithium, and many other meds (but thnks for the offer, lol)
btw-do I know you?
~Jade :)
Posted by former poster on June 24, 2010, at 17:47:36
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by jade k on June 24, 2010, at 10:43:54
Jade k? I don't recall your ID. Maybe you have changed it?
I live in the Midwest. I have been posting on this forum on and off for about 10 years with maybe 3 different ID's so it is possible you know me. I'll try to turn on my BABBLE MAIL. If anyone wants to contact me they are welcome to. Fear not! I have never been (blocked).
Posted by jade k on June 24, 2010, at 18:33:09
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by former poster on June 24, 2010, at 17:47:36
> Jade k? I don't recall your ID. Maybe you have changed it?
> I live in the Midwest. I have been posting on this forum on and off for about 10 years with maybe 3 different ID's so it is possible you know me. I'll try to turn on my BABBLE MAIL. If anyone wants to contact me they are welcome to. Fear not! I have never been (blocked).On and off for 10 years and never been blocked?! Imposter! lol
Nope, its always been Jade :-)
Posted by DocRon on June 27, 2010, at 15:03:40
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by DocRon on June 22, 2010, at 17:16:27
PLEASE NOTE: While lithium is a very potent poison it has VERY legitimate effects in the therapeutic field! I should have been more careful about saying that. It is a drug that has caused many people to take control of their lives back.
Remember, even WATER is a poison if you drink too much!
I hope no-one took that comment wrong. Lithium, like MANY other poisons (morphine, Paxil, heck--almost ALL drugs) has LEGIT effects that WORK for a lot of people.
DocRon
Please note: I am a PhD and NOT an MD! Don't listen to anything I say.
Posted by former poster on June 28, 2010, at 10:12:37
In reply to Re: Why does Lithium make me feel so awful?, posted by DocRon on June 27, 2010, at 15:03:40
Your post was fine. However, Lithium for me is a topic that always brings me stress. I always appreciate advice.
This is the end of the thread.
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