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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by ed_uk2010 on March 29, 2010, at 17:34:12
In reply to Re: thanks ed, posted by qbsbrown on March 29, 2010, at 17:06:50
> Diazepam in the past yes, had made me quite irritable and depressed as well.
> We have not discussed ativan, and I'm not against it. Pretty short half-life isn't it? And tough to break up?Lorazepam is difficult to come off, yes.
Have you tried taking the Xanax in more than three divided doses eg. 1mg six times per day?
Posted by qbsbrown on March 29, 2010, at 17:41:27
In reply to Re: thanks ed » qbsbrown, posted by ed_uk2010 on March 29, 2010, at 17:34:12
> > Diazepam in the past yes, had made me quite irritable and depressed as well.
> > We have not discussed ativan, and I'm not against it. Pretty short half-life isn't it? And tough to break up?
>
> Lorazepam is difficult to come off, yes.
>
> Have you tried taking the Xanax in more than three divided doses eg. 1mg six times per day?
>No, I've only been taking 2mgs 3x a day.
Would you recommend i try that before venturing back over to valium?
Brian
Posted by ed_uk2010 on March 29, 2010, at 17:53:10
In reply to Re: thanks ed, posted by qbsbrown on March 29, 2010, at 17:41:27
>Would you recommend i try that before venturing back over to valium?
Yes, it might help even things out. There's nothing to lose, it certainly won't do any harm.
Posted by qbsbrown on March 29, 2010, at 18:00:04
In reply to Re: thanks ed, posted by qbsbrown on March 29, 2010, at 17:41:27
It's pretty sad when your mental health history comes down to benzos.
On benzos in 05, came off abruptly, found out about benzo wd, and went on valium, and moved to china. During my valium wd, i was diagnosed ocd, as many in wd do. The AD may have saved my job, but made me very irritable and depressed person. So i have racing thoughts from the benzo wd, and irritability and depression from ssris, so of course DXed bipolar. Run through the gamet of over 30 meds ugh.
Now i am much worse off, and i don't know if any can help me.
While teaching in the middle east a while back, i was on tons of benzos, stimulants, booze, mood stabilizer, ambien, occasional AD, occasion antipsychotic, ended up hospitalized obviously.
The dr there cold turkeyed me from stimulants, ambien, and wanted me off high dose valium in one week. I was left on an AD, some depakote, and some zyprexa. it was a crazy 5 days to say the least, and the flight home, but when i was home, i was totally sane, and could function like a normal person. Only 5 days later, i was having bad racing thoughts, which i thought indicated bipolarity for sure, not thinking it could be part of withdrawal, and began the medication wheel again, and here i am.
Crappy story, and sorry for having to share.
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on March 29, 2010, at 18:01:52
In reply to Re: thanks ed » qbsbrown, posted by ed_uk2010 on March 29, 2010, at 17:53:10
> >Would you recommend i try that before venturing back over to valium?
>
> Yes, it might help even things out. There's nothing to lose, it certainly won't do any harm.
>
>But don't you think that i want the long action from valium, and isn't my xanax wd gonna be bad, and perhaps tolerance getting higher and higher?
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on March 29, 2010, at 18:13:09
In reply to Re: thanks ed » qbsbrown, posted by ed_uk2010 on March 29, 2010, at 17:53:10
> >Would you recommend i try that before venturing back over to valium?
>
> Yes, it might help even things out. There's nothing to lose, it certainly won't do any harm.
>
>
And yes Ed, it does even feel like after i take my 2mg doses, that it may perhaps give me anxiety, and make me kinda physically ill.Before i jumped off cold turkey from librium, it seemed to the benzo forum people, that i have/had a bad benzo sensitivity/reaction etc.
I don't know. Just wish there was any/some relief.
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on March 29, 2010, at 18:31:40
In reply to Re: thanks ed » qbsbrown, posted by ed_uk2010 on March 29, 2010, at 17:53:10
> >Would you recommend i try that before venturing back over to valium?
>
> Yes, it might help even things out. There's nothing to lose, it certainly won't do any harm.
>
>The benzos just make my head feel like WWIII, with bad physical SEs, and no calm. It's quite brutal.
I wonder if my brain can tolerate/accept a benzo anymore.
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on March 29, 2010, at 19:19:24
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me? » qbsbrown, posted by ed_uk2010 on March 29, 2010, at 13:01:31
> > Ed, I have having thoughts of Lyrica. I once had a doc put me up to 900mgs of it, i was able to drive long distances alone on it, did fun things like golfing etc. Giving that one a thought, what do you think? Seems all of the other anticonvulsants are so harsh for me.
>
> Lyrica is known to be effective for generalised anxiety in some cases, at least in the short term. It's not an established treatment for mood disorders though. Non-serious side effects are very common eg. sedation and dizziness. Serious side effects are uncommon so I guess it might be worth a try. Difficult to say. What do you think?
>
>Interesting that i had some success on lyrica in the past. Maybe i was just stoned and high at 900mgs. But driving long distances for the first time in a long time, able to stay in hotel rooms just fine. I believe that i needed a stimulant added for concentration, but that would obviously be a no go with the benzos now.
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on March 29, 2010, at 20:04:39
In reply to Re: thanks ed » qbsbrown, posted by ed_uk2010 on March 29, 2010, at 17:53:10
> >Would you recommend i try that before venturing back over to valium?
>
> Yes, it might help even things out. There's nothing to lose, it certainly won't do any harm.
>
>Well Ed, after 2 weeks of xanax, it seems as if my 2nd 2mg dose today is finally inducing a bit of sedation and depression. Oh sweet benzos, how i love thee. I doubt provogil would be of benefit with this, would it?
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on March 30, 2010, at 12:51:32
In reply to Re: Trileptal, why do you do this to me?, posted by qbsbrown on March 29, 2010, at 19:19:24
So here's the problem. If i take trileptal, i'll get more done in the first few hours of the day, then i would the entire day without.
BUT, then comes the fun depression part of the trileptal, which maybe 3 doses might fix?
BUT, during that depression phase, I'd like to take provigil, which seems to help.
BUT, I'm in the midst of a benzo problem, wihdrawal, and a bad physical reaction to them, and I would imagine that adding provigil, a central nervous system stimulant, to a benzo, CNS depressant, might mess me up. And mind you I have a CNS disease, multiple sclerosis.
Thank you all so much for this tribulating time.
I get no help from drs. My neurologist is like, go see your shrink, it's not related to MS, my shrink is like, i think this is psychosis secondary to MS, and these drugs aren't helping.
Oh well what do you do? I do know 2 times in the past, trileptal had helped me come off benzos much quicker. This past march, i tried to add during my taper, and it gave me such severe irritability, that just hearing people speak made me want to scream.
So yes, I feel very physically ill and sick and crazy, and would like off benzos.
Perhaps i just use the trileptal, and the lyrica, and just DEAL with it. I don't know how to avoid the seeming toxic/bad reaction to the benzos right now though.
Regards,
Brian
Posted by ed_uk2010 on March 30, 2010, at 16:59:12
In reply to my terrible history, posted by qbsbrown on March 29, 2010, at 18:00:04
If you're feeling some sedation for 2mg Xanax tid, perhaps you can reduce a little? 6mg per day is certainly a lot since Xanax is very potent.
Xanax is a very difficult drug to taper so Valium is often substituted.
In order to prevent a 'shock to the system' I still think that it would be a good idea to gradually increase the Valium at the same time as gradually decreasing the Xanax. Once you have stopped Xanax, you can then start to reduce the Valium.
Posted by qbsbrown on March 30, 2010, at 17:30:44
In reply to Re: my terrible history » qbsbrown, posted by ed_uk2010 on March 30, 2010, at 16:59:12
> If you're feeling some sedation for 2mg Xanax tid, perhaps you can reduce a little? 6mg per day is certainly a lot since Xanax is very potent.
>
> Xanax is a very difficult drug to taper so Valium is often substituted.
>
> In order to prevent a 'shock to the system' I still think that it would be a good idea to gradually increase the Valium at the same time as gradually decreasing the Xanax. Once you have stopped Xanax, you can then start to reduce the Valium.
>
>
>
>
>
>Thanks Ed. Seemed like the slight sedation from one of the 2mg doses was short lived, lol. The doses still make me feel quite physically ill, and wonder if i am having benzo sensitivity/toxicity. I believe my Dr is apt to switch to valium soon, although the valium will likely make me much more depressed and irritable than xanax. And memories of my taper from 30mgs last year, getting down to 17mgs, and housebound, psychotic, muscle deterioration and much much more. I wonder how much MS was playing in to that. So fears, and memories of tapering last year is frightening to say the least.
Trileptal has helped me taper in the past. I also have lyrica if wanted, to perhaps help with WD ad GAD, not sure.
Regards,Brian
Posted by Phillipa on March 30, 2010, at 19:28:15
In reply to Re: my terrible history, posted by qbsbrown on March 30, 2010, at 17:30:44
Brian so sorry about the MS you must be extremly upset. I'm sure you've already googled meds and possible side effects with MS? Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on March 30, 2010, at 19:36:52
In reply to Re: my terrible history » qbsbrown, posted by Phillipa on March 30, 2010, at 19:28:15
Brian found this hope the link works seems valium and benzos are used a lot with MS. Seems like a good website for you to search. Love Phillipa
Multiple Sclerosis Drug Treatments
Posted by qbsbrown on March 30, 2010, at 22:31:59
In reply to Re: my terrible history » Phillipa, posted by Phillipa on March 30, 2010, at 19:36:52
> Brian found this hope the link works seems valium and benzos are used a lot with MS. Seems like a good website for you to search. Love Phillipa
>
> Multiple Sclerosis Drug TreatmentsYeah, the irony of benzos being used a lot for MS. Perhaps as I was coming off, much or most of my symptoms were MS and not WD. I had gotten down to 17mgs valium, and my body was a wreck, i couldn't leave the house, psychosis, and other untellable things.
That's why now, on xanax, i think about crossing over to valium again, and could not even fathom a taper from there.
I wonder if benzos might have to be a long term thing with MS.
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on March 30, 2010, at 22:43:26
In reply to Re: my terrible history » qbsbrown, posted by ed_uk2010 on March 30, 2010, at 16:59:12
> If you're feeling some sedation for 2mg Xanax tid, perhaps you can reduce a little? 6mg per day is certainly a lot since Xanax is very potent.
>
> Xanax is a very difficult drug to taper so Valium is often substituted.
>
> In order to prevent a 'shock to the system' I still think that it would be a good idea to gradually increase the Valium at the same time as gradually decreasing the Xanax. Once you have stopped Xanax, you can then start to reduce the Valium.
>
>
>
>
>
>Well, I wonder if trileptal and/or lyrica could help at all.
The xanax xr version is probably going to be too expensive. I FEAR a valium withdrawal, as i was psychotic, housebound, lost weight, couldn't swallow, i felt like i was hight, on speed, on acid, anything under the gamet, you name it.
I don' know if this was some serious MS flaring up, or what was going on.
So yes, the xanax isn't great, and it does make me feel quite i'll i believe, and there is some interdose wd. Going over to valium, say 60mgs, and coming off that, after what i went through getting from 30mgs to 17mgs over months this past year, scares the bajesus out of me.
I am CLUELESS as what to do here.
I felt some decency with the trileptal today, but some serious naseaua and headache, which i thought was benzo related, but i think may have been the provigil
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 12:37:23
In reply to Ed, posted by qbsbrown on March 30, 2010, at 22:43:26
Just curious on thoughts here. After years of bipolar drugs, and numerous job failures, especially due to concentration/motivation issues, i was finally put on stimulants,and there were some benzos in there.
For the first time in my adult life, I became a productive employee. And the racing thoughts that had plagued me for so long, and giving me the bipolar dx, didn't seem to bother me as much. or maybe it's that on stimulants, your racing thoughts at least aren't unpleasurable ones lol.
But I think for me, some abuse problems might creep in, as i had some near overdoses. And counteracting stimulants with benzos, sure can wreck your CNS, and now finding out that I have MS, might not be the best thing.
I guess, if anything, provigil might be my safest be, agreed?
I used to take many bipolar drugs, zyprexa, trileptal,lyrica etc, and i still couldn't concentrate and be in the present moment, then added provigil, and boom, i was in the present moment like normal people.
Only problem for me now is my MS, and anything that effects my CNS, and given the wreckage of my CNS from my benzo wd and re-introduction of benzos, and now my inability to tolerate drugs, it even seems that the once golden provigil, is making me sick.
bummer.
Brian
Posted by ed_uk2010 on March 31, 2010, at 17:52:00
In reply to how often adhd wrongly diagnosed as bipolarity? ed, posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 12:37:23
Brian,
Try not to fear the withdrawal. If you experience severe withdrawal symptoms, the taper must be too fast. You will need to go as slowly as you feel comfortable with.
First of all, forget about the taper. For now, concentrate on transferring from Xanax over to Valium, which may take a few weeks if you do it in stages. Once you are stable on Valium, you can then decide if/when you want to start reducing the dose.
During the withdrawal, do you think Provigil will help or make you feel overstimulated?
Posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 20:08:09
In reply to Re: how often adhd wrongly diagnosed as bipolarity? ed » qbsbrown, posted by ed_uk2010 on March 31, 2010, at 17:52:00
> Brian,
>
> Try not to fear the withdrawal. If you experience severe withdrawal symptoms, the taper must be too fast. You will need to go as slowly as you feel comfortable with.
>
> First of all, forget about the taper. For now, concentrate on transferring from Xanax over to Valium, which may take a few weeks if you do it in stages. Once you are stable on Valium, you can then decide if/when you want to start reducing the dose.
>
> During the withdrawal, do you think Provigil will help or make you feel overstimulated?Thanks Ed. Yes, the taper from 30mgs to 17mgs was beyond belief, and it was a SLOW taper. So there is obvious GREAT fear. Yes, I feel more comfortable with trileptal and lyrica on board, especially given that trileptal helped tapering 2 times before.
Last march, I had tapered valium 30mgs to 10mgs in 10 days, with NO effects. Then foolishly dropped the trileptal cold turkey, and i was left in a state of valium cold turkey, and raised to 30, and then had my brutal taper down to 17mgs.
I do think that provigil is for sure aggrivating me completely, naseaua and headaches, i used to think it was a miracle drug for me. Obviously with MS, my CNS is already messed up beyond belief. And with trileptal making me hypomanic in the morning, and making me drink tons of coffee, who needs provigil?
Psychotropic drugs used to work for me. i thought zyprexa, celexa, and provigil was a perfect combo, or there were always others that seemed like they were going to work. I've spent years searching for that perfect combo, or at least one that would let me function like a regular sheep/cow, i mean normal person. Well, now my brain HATES drugs and rejects them and wants nothing to do with them, and i've put myself through psychosis by the manner that I have come off of them.
Ed, do you really think i need to do my conversion in stages? I'm a dramatic guy who never follows the guidelines lol. I've been on xanax for 2 weeks. How much valium do you think i should ask the Dr for? 60mgs? I still seem to be having a bad physical reaction to the benzos right now. Could still be toxic. The first night of lyrica seemed to help ease some anxiety, especially the morning anxiety, when the interdose creeps in.
I'm thinking about this Ed. Grabbing some valium, lyrica, and trileptal, and heading to the moutains of california, where they have an organic farm that you can work on for 4-5 hours a day, in exchange for food and board. I can't think of a better way to clear my mind, get away from civilization, as this place has no electricity, and is 45 mins from the nearest paved road.
For years, it seems like my life has been trying to fit square pegs in round holes, and using psychotropic drugs to do so.
What I would give back a couple of years ago, when i returned from a detox in the middle east, and was no longer on drugs, and no longer wanted them, and was functioning fine, only to have racing thoughts after 5 days and thinking i was bipolar. who wouldn't have racing thoughts after a SERIOUS detox from stimulants, benzos, ambien etc.
Ed, this CAN NOT be my life. A battle against benzos. Are you serious? This would be my what, 6-7th withdrawal attempt, and supposed to be worse each time, and this past one could not have been worse. I had/have so much more potential to do other things in this world, than to seemingly battle this poisionous drug to me.
I've been getting serious naseaua and headaches, and it's tough to tell if it's a toxic reaction to xanax, or if it's provigil, or if it's trileptal etc. I'm just sick and psychotic, and just want it to end.
When i was healthy, there is a Zen center that i used to frequent often, and loved it. I've been too sick and crazy to attend for the past year.
Apparently, one of the new teachers, is in fact an integrative psychiatrist. So i've reached out to him about my story, and am eager to hear what he has to say.So i'm thinking lyrica, trileptal, valium, and head to the mountains and do some organic farming, what do you think? LOL.
Thanks!!!!
Posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2010, at 20:26:27
In reply to Re: how often adhd wrongly diagnosed as bipolarity? ed, posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 20:08:09
Brian who do you see for the MS can that doc prescrible specific meds for you? Love Phillipa
Posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 20:27:46
In reply to Re: how often adhd wrongly diagnosed as bipolarity? ed, posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 20:08:09
I also used to be a big part of the benzo forums, a great contributor. Although of course, they are quite anti benzo and psychiatry in general, and yes, made me much more paranoid about my taper. A bad obsessional breeding ground.
That said, i do know, or have read of people, who had been off for a while, or had gone cold turkey, then went back on, and were just terrible sick, and had a brutal horrible taper. I fear that I am one of the few that are toxic, and am in that boat.
I wonder if we can get me over to valium, have the lyric and trileptal on board, and try to get me off. What do you think?
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 20:36:46
In reply to Re: how often adhd wrongly diagnosed as bipolarity? ed » qbsbrown, posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2010, at 20:26:27
> Brian who do you see for the MS can that doc prescrible specific meds for you? Love Phillipa
Phillipa, this is is what is the most frustrating part. I have a neurologist who treats the MS. I told him some dramatic was going on, and he HAD to find something. He did not think he would find anythying, i knew he would.
He did not think the psychiatric issues and the MS were related. I told him i didn't just get MS overnight, and i didn't just become crazy overnight.
I said, you didn't think u would find anything, i told you you would, I NEED you to believe in me.He said see your shrink. So the shrink at first thought it was just benzo wd psychosis. But then he said, I think is psychosis secondary to MS, and in my research, i see that 5-10 percent of MS patients experience psychosis. Nonetheless, i think they treat them the same. His last guess is just that it was schizo/bipolar, but he doesn't really think that.
The ECT did help, i think more would help. the benzos seemed to help initially, and now it feels like i'm toxic again, and i'm sure i need off quickly.
Do you know of any neuro/psychiatric people in the utah area? Do they exist?
Brian
Posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 20:44:50
In reply to Re: how often adhd wrongly diagnosed as bipolarity? ed » qbsbrown, posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2010, at 20:26:27
> Brian who do you see for the MS can that doc prescrible specific meds for you? Love Phillipa
Perhaps this is my guy. Integrative psychiatrist, who is on the board of neurology. HHMM
http://www.paulthielkingmd.com/about.php
Posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2010, at 21:18:48
In reply to Re: how often adhd wrongly diagnosed as bipolarity? ed, posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 20:36:46
Brian no I'd definitely google that one. But seems lots of docs say oh that's not my speciality see this type. I've myself experience this. I'm sorry sorry for you. What known symptoms of MS do you experience, weakness? Etc. Love Phillipa
Posted by qbsbrown on March 31, 2010, at 21:22:06
In reply to Re: how often adhd wrongly diagnosed as bipolarity? ed » qbsbrown, posted by ed_uk2010 on March 31, 2010, at 17:52:00
> Brian,
>
> Try not to fear the withdrawal. If you experience severe withdrawal symptoms, the taper must be too fast. You will need to go as slowly as you feel comfortable with.
>
> First of all, forget about the taper. For now, concentrate on transferring from Xanax over to Valium, which may take a few weeks if you do it in stages. Once you are stable on Valium, you can then decide if/when you want to start reducing the dose.
>
> During the withdrawal, do you think Provigil will help or make you feel overstimulated?Well, needless to say, after 6 hours after my 2mgs of xanax, i'm having interdose wd. Perhaps I take 1mg now, and another mg before bed.
What do you think about withdrawing from librium as opposed to valium?
This past summer while taper, and i couldn't leave the house, and i had to, i cracked and took 60mgs of valium. I took 20mgs, felt good for 2 hours, then oh no, needed more, took 20 more, felt good for 2 hours, then needed more.
I saw an addiction psychiatrist, and he decided on librium, because he said it did not have the self reinforcing qualities as valium did. Oh, and the valium, was making me want to drink alcohol too.
The librium was fine, i couldn't feel it, although i knew it was working, and wasn't craving more.
Only like all benzos, it made me depressed and irritable, and thinking that it would take a year or so to get off, made me go to detox.
So now my only question is, is librium or valium the best to wean off, especially given how many times i've attempted the valium taper, although it might address more MS issues.
I noticed that in the hospital when they put me on about 7 mgs of ativan, to 30 mgs of valium!! I would feel normal for about 2 hours, and then oh crap, it pooped out.
Librium or valium? does it matter?Brian
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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