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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by uncouth on August 17, 2009, at 20:52:20
I have all these bottles on my bathroom counter and i'm sick of them all. This is in addition to my prescribed med regime. I don't know what's helping, what's hurting, i just keep on adding on like it's nothing...but I'm near-suicidially depressed, so obviously things aren't working.
I tend to get obsessed with research I read on OTC substances, and add them on. So, because I just don't have any better method, and because i'm sick and tired of all of this, of everything, i want to hold a straw poll and get your opinions on which of these I should keep and which I should dump. I know everyone's different, and ideally I would have done clean experiments with all of these, but thats not the way it worked out :(
Everyday, in addition to my meds, I take
Eleuthero (siberian ginseng)
SAM-e 400mg
Multivitamin
Chromium Picolinate 200mcg
Omega-3 fish oil, 4g EPA+DHA
Sublingual B12
Rhodiola Rosea
Magnesium Glycinate 400mg
Zinc 30mg
Turmeric extract (Curcumin)
Aniracetam 750mg
I used to take 5-htp, 7-keto, DMAE, Acetyl-L-Carnitine, Phosphatidylserine, but have already withdrawn from those
Please help me.
Uncouth
Posted by uncouth on August 17, 2009, at 21:08:41
In reply to Supplement straw poll, posted by uncouth on August 17, 2009, at 20:52:20
also, forgot to add, I take an L-theanine/Relora compound on an as needed basis, usually at night, for anxiety/relaxation.
Posted by floatingbridge on August 17, 2009, at 21:57:27
In reply to Re: Supplement straw poll, posted by uncouth on August 17, 2009, at 21:08:41
Hi Uncouth,
I don't know what to say about the collection of supplements on your counter, but I have one to suggest. A friend told me about something called N.A.C. I have to do more reading, but someone recommended it for people taking pharmaceuticals.
Did you cross post this to Alt?
best,
fb
(I'm sorry you're feeling so poorly.)
Posted by uncouth on August 17, 2009, at 22:03:54
In reply to Re: Supplement straw poll » uncouth, posted by floatingbridge on August 17, 2009, at 21:57:27
shoot, forgot to add that one, yes i'm taking it, n-acetyl-cysteine 2000mg/day...
Posted by floatingbridge on August 17, 2009, at 22:10:06
In reply to Re: Supplement straw poll, posted by uncouth on August 17, 2009, at 22:03:54
oh, for how long? I guess you can't tell if you like it or it helps?
fb
Posted by uncouth on August 17, 2009, at 22:12:26
In reply to Re: Supplement straw poll » uncouth, posted by floatingbridge on August 17, 2009, at 22:10:06
probably almost a year now. it hasn't been a miracle. can't tell if it'sh elping or hurting.
Posted by Sigismund on August 17, 2009, at 23:12:31
In reply to Re: Supplement straw poll, posted by uncouth on August 17, 2009, at 22:03:54
I forgot to add?
well yes.
My least favourite supplement you have there is aniracetam.
You could chuck that.
Posted by uncouth on August 17, 2009, at 23:19:13
In reply to Re: Supplement straw poll » uncouth, posted by Sigismund on August 17, 2009, at 23:12:31
> I forgot to add?
>
> well yes.
>
> My least favourite supplement you have there is aniracetam.
> You could chuck that.thanks. any reasoning? It's supposed to be an AMPAkine and increased AMPA thoroughput is supposed to be how ketamine may work...
Posted by Sigismund on August 17, 2009, at 23:26:40
In reply to Re: Supplement straw poll » Sigismund, posted by uncouth on August 17, 2009, at 23:19:13
>> You could chuck that.
>thanks. any reasoning?
It felt like a strain, taking it.
(Not terrible like centrophenoxone, but somewhat similar and not good.)>increased AMPA thoroughput is supposed to be how ketamine may work...
This is for OCD?
Posted by TriedEveryDrug on August 17, 2009, at 23:29:44
In reply to Supplement straw poll, posted by uncouth on August 17, 2009, at 20:52:20
SAMe made me feel like CRAP. CRAP CRAP CRAP
Ginseng makes me anxious as hell.
My $0.02.
Posted by uncouth on August 17, 2009, at 23:30:17
In reply to Re: Supplement straw poll » uncouth, posted by Sigismund on August 17, 2009, at 23:26:40
no, for depression and adhd and anhedonia
but if it helps OCD i'm all for it
if it exacerbates it then i'm definitely not a fan.i just started up two days ago. can't tell effects so far.
Posted by Phillipa on August 17, 2009, at 23:49:43
In reply to Re: Supplement straw poll, posted by uncouth on August 17, 2009, at 23:30:17
Uncouth list all meds and supplements and google drug checker on google and enter them all it will give interractions and contradictions. Maybe the answer is there. I also had worse anxiety from ginsing. Love Phillipa
Posted by Sigismund on August 18, 2009, at 0:14:20
In reply to Re: Supplement straw poll, posted by uncouth on August 17, 2009, at 23:30:17
No luck with phosphatidylserine?
I'm awaiting my shipment of that.
Posted by Sigismund on August 18, 2009, at 0:17:26
In reply to Supplement straw poll, posted by uncouth on August 17, 2009, at 20:52:20
When I combined SAMe with low dose Parnate it was awful.
I had to avert my eyes from passing people and work out where I would go with care and where refuge might be found.
I hid in a library behind a newspaper for an hour or two until I could leave.
Posted by yxibow on August 18, 2009, at 5:06:58
In reply to Supplement straw poll, posted by uncouth on August 17, 2009, at 20:52:20
> I have all these bottles on my bathroom counter and i'm sick of them all. This is in addition to my prescribed med regime. I don't know what's helping, what's hurting, i just keep on adding on like it's nothing...but I'm near-suicidially depressed, so obviously things aren't working.
If you are, why add things randomly without time between each, you'll never know what worked.. ?
And if you are really that depressed why aren't you seeking hospital help, or a different medication regime from your doctor ? I'm not trying to be mean by saying this -- believe me, I've been there, I am there, as far as being really down.
> I tend to get obsessed with research I read on OTC substances, and add them on. So, because I just don't have any better method, and because i'm sick and tired of all of this, of everything, i want to hold a straw poll and get your opinions on which of these I should keep and which I should dump. I know everyone's different, and ideally I would have done clean experiments with all of these, but thats not the way it worked out :(Clean trials.... as I said.
> Everyday, in addition to my meds, I take
>
> Eleuthero (siberian ginseng)Ginseng makes me utterly nervous, I don't see the purpose....
> SAM-e 400mg
Potentially harmful with some medications...
> Multivitamin
Not a bad idea
> Chromium Picolinate 200mcg
Always a waste, you get more chromium from silverware, water, casual contact with metals and ingestion.
> Omega-3 fish oil, 4g EPA+DHA
Generally good for cholesterol, not a bad idea, should be clean oil that doesn't have heavy metals.
> Sublingual B12
B12 is added to many processed foods and if you are not a strict vegetarian like I am, its probably not necessary
> Rhodiola Rosea
Can't say, I've only seen this recently in alternative medicine which isn't my forte...
> Magnesium Glycinate 400mg
Magnesium is harmless to the body and in fact is necessary... whether supplements are needed I can't say. Of course large amounts of magnesium of any kind can cause diarrhea.
> Zinc 30mg
Used to take it along with selenium supposedly for hair but the likelihood that it does anything is probably low. Not too harmful, but it is a metal, so careful on the quantity.
Supposedly useful PRN for reducing colds by one day -- maybe -- not really proven.
> Turmeric extract (Curcumin)
Its food ? Alternative uses I'm not sure...
> Aniracetam 750mg
Not sure about messing with this class... related drug Keppra can cause psychosis in some patients.
> I used to take 5-htp, 7-keto, DMAE, Acetyl-L-Carnitine, Phosphatidylserine, but have already withdrawn from those
5HTP or L-tryptophan may help sleep cycles, I do take this personally but I have added them on not completely haphazardly. As to whether they have helped me -- I can't say... I have what is probably a undiagnosed sleep disorder of some sort.
> Please help me.
This sounds like an expensive list but I know I also have sought out supplements so I'm not trying to be sardonic.Basically -- first, I would be open with your doctor if you aren't already about your supplements -- a few of them could mix with whatever you are taking in not a good fashion.
Secondly, its quite a laundry list -- medicine, alternative or not, is best to simplify, not to add everything in the kitchen sink because supplements too have side effects and you won't know which one did what.
I may be naively talking, I do not know your situation and whether you have TRD (treatment resistant depression, sort of a non-medical term I think).... I don't know if you already have polypharmacy going on, but I think a full review of medications with your doctor would be a good idea.-- best wishes
-- Jay
Posted by SLS on August 18, 2009, at 6:05:30
In reply to Re: Supplement straw poll » uncouth, posted by floatingbridge on August 17, 2009, at 21:57:27
> Hi Uncouth,
>
> I don't know what to say about the collection of supplements on your counter, but I have one to suggest. A friend told me about something called N.A.C. I have to do more reading, but someone recommended it for people taking pharmaceuticals.I went out and bought NAC, but have not decided when the right time is to begin taking it. I think I should see where this lithium thing is going first. NAC, among other things, is neuroprotective.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on August 18, 2009, at 6:09:09
In reply to Re: Supplement straw poll » Sigismund, posted by uncouth on August 17, 2009, at 23:19:13
> > I forgot to add?
> >
> > well yes.
> >
> > My least favourite supplement you have there is aniracetam.
> > You could chuck that.
>
> thanks. any reasoning? It's supposed to be an AMPAkine and increased AMPA thoroughput is supposed to be how ketamine may work...I think ketamine is actually an NMDA receptor antagonist. However, I know that NMDA neurons interact with the AMPA or kainate receptor neurons. I guess that would explain the observation. In any event, doing so would help prevent excitotoxicity of glutamatergic neurons.
- Scott
Posted by zana on August 18, 2009, at 8:55:50
In reply to Re: Supplement straw poll » uncouth, posted by SLS on August 18, 2009, at 6:09:09
I take fish oils because they are so good for so many things, heart, inflammation, arthritis. The data on depression doesn't seem very strong. I also take vitamin D which is supposed to be important for many things, depression included and people who do not spend time in the sun without sunscreen are likely to be low in it. I take 1-2,000 mgs a day. That's what my doc recommended. I also take B-12 because I am mostly a vegetarian and blood tests showwed that I was low in it and it is linked to depression. I know NAC is supposed to be a powerful antioxidant. If it helps with depression or anxiety? I doubt it.
Hope you are feeling better today or soon.
Zana
Posted by JohnJ777 on August 18, 2009, at 11:48:10
In reply to Supplement straw poll, posted by uncouth on August 17, 2009, at 20:52:20
Yes, you've gone over the top with your supplements. I use Rhodiola rosea on a daily basis, and have for years. I wouldn't miss that one - it has a rather large effect on my positive outlook (Verde Botanica,"Mind Body & Spirit"). I also take Eleuthero (which you called Ginseng, but which has nothing to do with Ginseng, not related at all) and it is good for physical energy but doesn't have a lot of effect on mood or depression. I like it, however, and never found it to create an edgy feeling or jittery type side effects. It may depend on the brand you use (I use Swedish Herbal Institute brand Eleuthero). With regards to other products, I'd make SURE you get 1000 mg daily of fish oil because that has a very positive effect on your brain. You could dump a lot of that other stuff but stick with the Rhodiola and the Omega 3's in the Fish Oil! I use Trader Joe's brand Fish Oil and it works great.
Posted by Jimmyboy on August 18, 2009, at 13:48:43
In reply to Re: Supplement straw poll, posted by JohnJ777 on August 18, 2009, at 11:48:10
As others have said, I would dump the SAM-e. Personally it caused me to have terrible anxiety and panic attacks that took me years to deal with.. Plus its not exactly cheap. A good standardized St. John's Wort is a better choice IMO for something like that.
I would definitely kep the thenine, it has been great for relaxation for me and also boosts my mood.
Posted by bleauberry on August 19, 2009, at 17:15:31
In reply to Supplement straw poll, posted by uncouth on August 17, 2009, at 20:52:20
While all these supplements have "generally accepted" benefits, that doesn't mean they are always good for everyone.
Example. There is an institute that specializes in treating psychiatric disorders with specific vitamin/mineral/chelation protocols individualized to each patient based on very thorough detailed lab testing. Some of these people are overmethylated...they must avoid all forms of vitamin b...they already have too much. Some people are undermethylated, they need a lot, but which one? Without testing, you don't know. You could be making things worse.
> Eleuthero (siberian ginseng)
Depending on the dose, probably benign enough. No telling how it interacts with meds though.>
> SAM-e 400mg
With its high sulfur content, its downsides are:
-it can stir up stored mercury and lead in fat tissues and send them to the brain...depression and other neurological possibilities are highly likely if that happens.
-Yeast and other hidden opportunistic invaders love sulfur. Their normal daily secretions and toxins cause debilitating depression that is not very responsive to meds because the meds are doing nothing to stop those exotoxins.>
> Multivitamin
Probably a good thing, but depends on the doses. If it is a megavitamin, probably not a good idea. Something with 100%RDA is good enough. The better option is to include a 100%RDA vitamin with an extremely well chosen food list...high in veggies, fruits, proteins, fibers; low in sugars, grains, and starches.Copper toxicity is probably fairly common. Psychiatric symptoms result. Copper piping in buildings, as well as the lead solder joints. Without testing, taking supplemental copper in a vitamin is a gamble.
>
> Chromium Picolinate 200mcg
Probably benign, but anything is possible.>
> Omega-3 fish oil, 4g EPA+DHA
Touted for antidepression and anti-inflammation, in a small percentage of people it worsens depression and causes inflammation flare-ups. I cannot touch fish oil without feeling worse. How do you know it isn't working against you? 4g is a lot. It obviously is not providing therapeutic effect. For health reasons, reduce it to one capsule per day or every other day. Be sure your brand states it is pure of heavy metals. Keep in mind, clinical studies are contradictory...some of them showed zero benefit from fish oil. It is not a matter of how much oil, but how balanced all of our oils are. Too much of anything aint good.>
> Sublingual B12
Multiple cases of B12 induced worsening of depression have been reported here. How do you know you aren't one of them?>
> Rhodiola Rosea
If it isn't the brand "Mind, Body, Spirit", forget it, whatever you have is crap. I have compiled dozens of reports from people where Rhodiola made them tired, headache, didn't do anything, nervous like coffee...all from supposedly top brands. That is not the case with the above brand. Dose is important as well. Too much can work against you.>
> Magnesium Glycinate 400mg
Mg makes a lot of people feel depressed. Sure there are magical stories on the net of how great Mg is. Seen them all. That doesn't mean it is for you or me or anyone else. Show me the clinical proof. Glycinate is similar to GABA or benzos, which themselves you know are nervous system depressants. For anxiety, helpful, for depression, it's a gamble. A lab test is pretty easy. Mine showed my Mg was already healthy just from good food choices. No wonder extra amounts of it made me feel bad. Balance.>
> Zinc 30mg
Seems reasonable. It has the benefit of displacing any high copper levels.>
> Turmeric extract (Curcumin)
Excellent supplement. Would probably show its true colors if not drowned out by all the meds and other stuff.>
> Aniracetam 750mg
I've heard conflicting stories on this one, so I can't really say. I would be suspect. If I knew it wasn't doing something really good for me, I would eliminate it.>
> I used to take 5-htp, 7-keto, DMAE, Acetyl-L-Carnitine, Phosphatidylserine, but have already withdrawn from those
>
> Please help me.
> UncouthI don't see any easy way out. Of all the supplements listed, I personally would probably keep Tumeric, Rhodiola but only if the MBS brand, and a low dose multivitamin.
Most or all of the meds would have to go over the next 3 months. I was in your shoes and that was the only way to dig out of my hole and get a fresh start.
So we have a tough depression here? All these meds and all these supplements seem impotent? What's up with that? Well I'll tell you what's up with that. None of them are doing a thing to target what is causing your brain to be under assault.
For future supplement considerations, I would suggest you shop from this menu:
Garlic
Oil of Oregano
Samento
Cat's Claw
Cumanda
Burbur
Barberry
Olive Leaf
Black Walnut+Wormwood+Cloves
ChlorellaIf you do some searches on these things you'll see why. By trial and error you have already eliminated a lot of potential culprits in depression, but some of the top ones have been accidentally missed. These herbs cover them all.
And of course take a look in your mouth. If you see silver fillings, you are looking at the cause of your entire physical and mental slide.
Posted by sam K on August 20, 2009, at 3:16:34
In reply to Re: Supplement straw poll, posted by bleauberry on August 19, 2009, at 17:15:31
let me throw my opinions in here.
ok so, If youre taking sam-e, I reccomend taking folate instead. Why? because it's cheaper and for me it feels like the exact same thing. I think folate makes sam-e in the brain anyway too.Fish oil- fish oil isnt really good or bad for me.(mental illness wise) But Im pretty sure its good for heart health and just healthiness in general for me.
Magnesium- HA. they say it cures depression.. I took it and became clearly more depressed. But I do take it every day pretty much for my bipolar symptoms. Like racing thoughts, grandiose thoughts, over energized. And I really like it, its pretty effective.
Multivitamin- Yea i take it everyday. No mega doses though. Only 100 percents.
Herbs- Um yeah.. Im a weird guy and every herb Ive ever taken has made me weirder, so IMA lay off the herbs. HERBS MON'
Marijuana supplements- no just kidding but I wish. This drug would probably make me so freaking weird if I used it every day..
Cinnamon- a bit over placebo. Basically does zilch. i took it for blood sugar/insulin control purposes. Better than nothing.
B12 sublinguals- Good.. energy and a teensy mood lift.
Chromium- Chromium chromium chromium, why do you always do me wrong? Every time I take any chromium supplement I get more depressed than ever. Teary, tired,
Ginseng- NO NO NO. this stuff makes me very weird and makes me more dissaociated/ question reality.
Kava- makes me depressed
Valerian- depressed
Ashwaganda- hungry as hell, feel decent, more paranoia though
Melatonin-depressed
Vitamin D- good for mood, too much makes me worse. Overall good supplement.
Vitamin C- NO
Vitamin E- Calming, too much will make me sad though. Good supplement.
Acetyl L Carnitine- Very good supplement. I like amino acids. cool concept. Good for memory, long and short. Antioxidant, Good for mood, concentration, no anxiety flare up.
Taurine- Thought it was going to be awesome, but makes me depressed and really slow. Not pleasant for me.
5htp- Great supplement, though mild. Improves my well being and is calming. Makes me somewhat irritable though.
Trytophan- Very bad for me. Puts me in a dream like state, worst supplement for me.
GABA- Relaxing but lasts to long. Makes me lay on the couch all day watching cartoons. Has a rebound effect too for me. Calms me then once it wears off Im more anxious.
Theanine- crap for me. depressant.
Lithium orotate- made me very depressed and unhappy.
St johns wort- more anxious
Bach Rescue Remedy spray- Good. Calming, kind of flattening. Does what it says, releives tension and anxiety. Probably good for panic disorder.
Glucosamine and MSM- good for joint pains. I read MSM is good for mood too. Going to have to look into that.
Vilift- Crap. Total crap. And my mom paid $50 for it. Such a scam..
Damania- calming
Schizadra- calming
Rhodiola Rosea- more anxious, less depressed.
ALLI- very good weight loss OTC drug, expensive though.
Benedryl- good if I cannot sleep or am really manicy.
Supplements Im looking into:
Vandium (maybe)
All the amino acids
N acetyl l cerine?
Posted by Phillipa on August 20, 2009, at 20:32:16
In reply to Re: Supplement straw poll, posted by sam K on August 20, 2009, at 3:16:34
Sam why do you not vitamin C? I've taken 2000mg of time release for about 40 years? Phillipa
Posted by sam K on August 20, 2009, at 22:04:45
In reply to Re: Supplement straw poll » sam K, posted by Phillipa on August 20, 2009, at 20:32:16
remember when I used to post about that tooth problem I was having? well vitamin c makes it worse. strange I know, but it does.
This is the end of the thread.
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