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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by metric on April 7, 2009, at 16:35:04
In reply to Modern biochemistry and humanity » metric, posted by yxibow on April 4, 2009, at 13:43:17
> Yes. in certain cases -- I think our "war on drugs" is a waste on time when we should increase our "war on guns" -- but modern knowledge has said also that drinking bottle after bottle of heroin snake oil syrup just might perhaps create some addiction problems, just to name a hundred examples.
>Most of the damage associated with addiction is a direct result of prohibition. Where it isn't created outright, it is greatly amplified.
Since you raise the issue of heroin addiction, it's worth mentioning that there've been many high functioning opiod addicts. The famous surgeon William Halstead is one such example. These people do fine as long as their supply isn't cut off. In contrast with tobacco and alcohol, there is no known organ damage associated with long-term opiod use, even when the dose is continually raised to overcome tolerance.
> Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should criminalize marijuana, some light drugs and esoteric 'entheogens', etc -- but this "modern society", yes, has plenty examples such as e.g., the misuse and bad timing of hard drugs causing crack babies to be born from addiction.
>The problem with this argument is that we already *have* prohibition, so examples about crack babies can hardly be interpreted as supportive to your cause. The use of drugs such as crack has emerged _during_ prohibition. The demand for drugs such as crack would all but disappear if safe and effective alternatives were readily available.
> My whole point there was to illustrate that looking back a century through rosy lenses eliminates what were SERIOUS problems and people did not -necessarily- have a life expectancy of 78 (in developed regions) unless they managed to escape flu, terrible diseases that are now vaccinated against, etc.I'm not sure where you got the idea that I think we should go back to dark ages. I'm all for progress in medicine and any discipline that can improve the condition of life for humans. Unfortunately, prohibition has been a giant leap backward for mankind.
At least in part a consequence of prohibition, there has been a sharp increase in the medicalization of human behavior. Common but irritating behaviors and symptoms of personhood have become classified as medical illnesses in order to justify the use of psychoactive drugs. It would be a helluva lot more honest to simply accept that people want to use drugs to enhance their lives, and allow them to do so, instead of insisting that they have "diseases" (anxiety, insomnia, depression, etc.) that require medical treatment and permission slips from a doctor. Ideally, a prescription should be analogous to a shopping list rather than a permission slip.
The absence of a laboratory test for any so-called mental illness (point me to the "mind" in any anatomy textbook) further calls into question the usefulness of medicine in addressing them. I can't recall a single instance in my existence in which I needed a doctor to tell me I was, for instance, feeling nervous or depressed. Why can't people "diagnose" and "medicate" their own emotional symptoms without sanction from the state?
> This is where we are getting to the crux of things -- anyone is entitled to their opinion, but there has been an increased amount of anti-psychiatry threads on this board over the years I've been here.
>
> Why are people in the -medicine- board if they don't like medicine in the first place ?
>I'm not in any way against the use of drugs. I just don't see the use of psychiatry. If individuals were free to buy their drugs without a prescription, there wouldn't be any need for psychiatry. Psychiatrists don't do any kind of objective testing to diagnose physical pathology. They just prescribe drugs, often in combinations such that their "patients" would more appropriately be described as experimental research subjects, which raises the question: why aren't the "patients" receiving compensation instead of the other way around?
> No. Hardly. Try living with a psychiatric disorder for 7 years that NOBODY has and at least some medication and much therapy (if you think psychology is legitimate, I'm not going to get into another argument)...I'm genuinely sorry that you're suffering. It is *not* my intent to trivialize anyone's suffering.
> ...and you'll know what it feels like to be alone and what feels like inhumane is really anger against something that can't be solved yet, maybe not even in my own lifetime.
>I know very well what it's like to be alone. I am not a stranger to morbid despair, social isolation, severe anxiety. Please do whatever you can to make your situation better. Don't wait for psychiatry to "fix" you, or to make you feel "normal", because there is no such thing.
>
> Yes, part of this is -personal-, but what part of humanity isnt?
>
>
> And try living, even now, in a situation where biological imbalances, mental illness, are labeled still all sorts of things despite organizations like NAMI attempting the otherwise.
>NAMI is a marketing arm of the pharmaceutical companies.
> I'm not a 'fruitcake' or a 'wacko' or 'crazy' or deserving of 1940s insulin shots.
>I would never label you as such.
Posted by Sigismund on April 8, 2009, at 23:57:45
In reply to Re: Modern biochemistry and humanity » yxibow, posted by metric on April 7, 2009, at 16:35:04
The illegal drug industry and the drug abuse control industry are 2 sides of the same coin, and the penalty is paid by those in the third world who have their environments destroyed to produce drugs and destroyed again by the drug abuse control industry.
Progress? Believe in it if it makes you feel more meaningful and hopeful, I guess.
Posted by yxibow on April 9, 2009, at 1:58:49
In reply to Re: Modern biochemistry and humanity » yxibow, posted by metric on April 7, 2009, at 16:35:04
> NAMI is a marketing arm of the pharmaceutical companies.
That is an incredibly biased and completely untrue statement.
NAMI has been working for years to destigmatize mental illness, to the point of labeling people with mental illness now "consumers", that is, people who go to someone to get help just like anyone would go anywhere else, to a barber.
They fund, with local sources, outreach groups, counseling groups, depending on funding in areas.
I'm not quite sure what else to say to your comment but it is completely untrue.
-- Jay
Posted by metric on April 13, 2009, at 20:15:54
In reply to Re: Modern biochemistry and humanity » metric, posted by yxibow on April 9, 2009, at 1:58:49
> > NAMI is a marketing arm of the pharmaceutical companies.
>
> That is an incredibly biased and completely untrue statement.
>
> NAMI has been working for years to destigmatize mental illness, to the point of labeling people with mental illness now "consumers", that is, people who go to someone to get help just like anyone would go anywhere else, to a barber.
>
> They fund, with local sources, outreach groups, counseling groups, depending on funding in areas.
>
> I'm not quite sure what else to say to your comment but it is completely untrue.
>
> -- Jay
>Critically examine NAMI's source of funds.
Posted by garnet71 on April 13, 2009, at 21:23:03
In reply to Re: Modern biochemistry and humanity » yxibow, posted by metric on April 13, 2009, at 20:15:54
"Critically examine NAMI's source of funds."
I was thinking along those same lines. The mental health stigma advocacy might be just a side agenda, though I always liked NMIH too.
The concept of government itself is corrupt-it's a division of power, well there's other ways too look at it too..but after working for several govt. agencies/different levels, I saw lots of corruption. It forever changes you.
No, lots of government workers are not corrupt, but corruption trickles down. If the leader allows corruption, more people start to take part and it becomes the norm. It's contagious. After it gets so far, whoever tries to challenge it will get stoned. Not the good kind of stoned.
Then there are the judges and police--tons of corruption there. If you have cops as friends, some might tell you about it.
The division of power is decided by just a few people at the highest levels. Narcissists tend to rise to power a lot easier than their more sensitive counterparts. The motivation is instinctual. they are more thick skinned then say people with more idealistic tendencies. Do you think someone real sensitive and nurturing could survive being a politician in D.C.? Maybe sometimes. It's brutal and cuthroat.
ThIt's human nature. History validates this. It goes way back...slavery has existed as long as history. The strongest and most narcisstic dominate the rest. The difference between then and now is that our systems are so complex; there are so many other ways to harness power. Just because it is not as obvious due to the complexity does not mean the ideology is much different.
I really dislike being pessimistic about this, but like I said, once you see a lot, you can't go back. Instead, you become a realist.
Only recently did I realize there is a shift taking place, where power is going to be more distributed - this is due to information technology. However, the power is going to be allocated to more groups of 'regular' people, but still groups, rather than individuals. that's kind of scary too, if you can imagine a herd mentality controlling things. It's actually very interesting to think about the direction we're headed. Evolution.
Why did I just say all that.
Oh, because this is the type of thing that influences me to go move to an island somewhere and live a simple life. And get away from all things ugly.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 13, 2009, at 21:42:28
In reply to Re: Modern biochemistry and humanity, posted by garnet71 on April 13, 2009, at 21:23:03
> Oh, because this is the type of thing that influences me to go move to an island somewhere and live a simple life. And get away from all things ugly.
Sounds good. Is your island big enough to share? I'm an excellent gardener and cook.
Lar
Posted by garnet71 on April 14, 2009, at 0:17:19
In reply to Re: Modern biochemistry and humanity » garnet71, posted by Larry Hoover on April 13, 2009, at 21:42:28
lol Yeah, I could really use a gardener, I'm not that good yet. But I want to do the cooking - can you do the dishes instead?
It's not a deserted island, there will be lots of people there who don't care about politics and want to enjoy life - how does that saying go "eat, drink, and be merry"? or should I say "life is too short". Someone else could think of something better.
Dubai is building a lot of islands. Maybe someday I can create one with this mindset.
Posted by HyperFocus on April 14, 2009, at 21:52:30
In reply to Re: Modern biochemistry and humanity, posted by garnet71 on April 13, 2009, at 21:23:03
Problem with retreating to an island is pretty soon you're going to run in to the same problems you claim to be running away from. The minute somebody asks the question 'Hey who takes out the trash in the morning?' you're going to have to deal with issues of politics, governance, liberty, civil rights...
Democracy is not perfect but it's the best the human race has. I think we have it pretty good here in the West, whatever our problems are. I don't agree with many laws but you just have to look at a failed state like Somalia to see what democracy has steered us away from. They're doing pretty badly without a central government and laws.
> "Critically examine NAMI's source of funds."
>
> I was thinking along those same lines. The mental health stigma advocacy might be just a side agenda, though I always liked NMIH too.
>
> The concept of government itself is corrupt-it's a division of power, well there's other ways too look at it too..but after working for several govt. agencies/different levels, I saw lots of corruption. It forever changes you.
>
> No, lots of government workers are not corrupt, but corruption trickles down. If the leader allows corruption, more people start to take part and it becomes the norm. It's contagious. After it gets so far, whoever tries to challenge it will get stoned. Not the good kind of stoned.
>
> Then there are the judges and police--tons of corruption there. If you have cops as friends, some might tell you about it.
>
> The division of power is decided by just a few people at the highest levels. Narcissists tend to rise to power a lot easier than their more sensitive counterparts. The motivation is instinctual. they are more thick skinned then say people with more idealistic tendencies. Do you think someone real sensitive and nurturing could survive being a politician in D.C.? Maybe sometimes. It's brutal and cuthroat.
>
> ThIt's human nature. History validates this. It goes way back...slavery has existed as long as history. The strongest and most narcisstic dominate the rest. The difference between then and now is that our systems are so complex; there are so many other ways to harness power. Just because it is not as obvious due to the complexity does not mean the ideology is much different.
>
> I really dislike being pessimistic about this, but like I said, once you see a lot, you can't go back. Instead, you become a realist.
>
> Only recently did I realize there is a shift taking place, where power is going to be more distributed - this is due to information technology. However, the power is going to be allocated to more groups of 'regular' people, but still groups, rather than individuals. that's kind of scary too, if you can imagine a herd mentality controlling things. It's actually very interesting to think about the direction we're headed. Evolution.
>
> Why did I just say all that.
>
> Oh, because this is the type of thing that influences me to go move to an island somewhere and live a simple life. And get away from all things ugly.
Posted by metric on April 16, 2009, at 16:04:46
In reply to Re: Modern biochemistry and humanity » garnet71, posted by Larry Hoover on April 13, 2009, at 21:42:28
> > Oh, because this is the type of thing that influences me to go move to an island somewhere and live a simple life. And get away from all things ugly.
>
> Sounds good. Is your island big enough to share? I'm an excellent gardener and cook.Count me in. I'll catch the fish. All the omega-3s you can eat.
I have some thoughts concerning the selection of plants...
Posted by Garnet71 on April 16, 2009, at 23:30:30
In reply to Re: Modern biochemistry and humanity » yxibow, posted by metric on April 13, 2009, at 20:15:54
Hey-don't be trying to ruin my ~dream~ now, my dream of living a simple, stress-free life surrounded by beauty, living like a bohemian and becoming a writer of music and books, and a painter. I'll make pottery too. I mean, who are we if we can't DREAM of such things??? Besides, my son and I NEVER argue about taking out the trash. And either will Larry or Metric.
So I don't care if anyone else shares my dream--but plllleeeeaaaaasssseeeee don't try to ruin it. Besides, I've been through enough in my life, been to enough countries around the world and studied enough about the world to know what I want and what I don't want. :-)
If anyone thinks my plan is far-fetched, then why does my favorite website exist?
http://www.escapeartist.com/efan/efan.htm
And see, I already have 2 followers. so there!
Posted by desolationrower on April 17, 2009, at 22:42:26
In reply to Re: Modern biochemistry and humanity, posted by garnet71 on April 13, 2009, at 21:23:03
i've spent a little time around some politicians, and the main thing about them is they are *ss-kissers. impressed by people with power (read:rich people). you have to be, because most of the job is to ask people for money.
-d/r
Posted by garnet71 on April 17, 2009, at 23:29:33
In reply to Re: Modern biochemistry and humanity, posted by desolationrower on April 17, 2009, at 22:42:26
See, that's not natural.
I once knew a narcissist very well - and yeah, he was impressed by that sort of thing too, mostly dated rich women (except for me...lol). Some people feel important by hanging out with that crowd. Well, he was a military commander-and he loved that "power trip". It fed his primative needs.
Well I don't see how you would fit in with that crowd. Will you come to my island? You can be the island psychiatrist... lol
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 19, 2009, at 7:29:36
In reply to Re: Modern biochemistry and humanity, posted by garnet71 on April 17, 2009, at 23:29:33
I should think that with a return to the simple life, we might not need psychiatry any longer. At least, that is a component of my dream.
Lar
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on April 19, 2009, at 14:34:55
In reply to Re: Modern biochemistry and humanity, posted by Garnet71 on April 16, 2009, at 23:30:30
Clearly, we have the same dream, including a regular presence at Escape Artist.
I have dreamed of having a depression colony, where all depressed people can go, live off their meds, and be free to be f'ed up. Like a leper colony--the gov can fly supplies in and we can live our mad lives without any strictures, any "fitting in," any take-your-meds-and-be-a-zombie-so-can-work-dammit.
> Hey-don't be trying to ruin my ~dream~ now, my dream of living a simple, stress-free life surrounded by beauty, living like a bohemian and becoming a writer of music and books, and a painter. I'll make pottery too. I mean, who are we if we can't DREAM of such things??? Besides, my son and I NEVER argue about taking out the trash. And either will Larry or Metric.
>
> So I don't care if anyone else shares my dream--but plllleeeeaaaaasssseeeee don't try to ruin it. Besides, I've been through enough in my life, been to enough countries around the world and studied enough about the world to know what I want and what I don't want. :-)
>
> If anyone thinks my plan is far-fetched, then why does my favorite website exist?
>
> http://www.escapeartist.com/efan/efan.htm
>
> And see, I already have 2 followers. so there!
Posted by Garnet71 on April 19, 2009, at 15:26:57
In reply to Re: Modern biochemistry and humanity, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on April 19, 2009, at 14:34:55
lol Amelia. You know, a depression colony does not sound as far fetched as one might think initially. Hmm. maybe we could partner up one day and start one? We could advertise on EscapeArtist. and Dr. Bob. lol
Years ago, I had once thought of starting sort of personality design firm, and one component of it-using designer cognitive enhancers and drugs-seems to be coming true.
Well ideas pop in my head all the time,but unfortunately, just about every entrepreunerial idea I've thought of, I learn someone else is doing it, or headed towards my idea. I bet someone right now is doing your idea. I guess that could equate to a retreat for people with mental health issues. I like that idea.
What do you think, Larry?
Posted by Sigismund on April 19, 2009, at 15:39:41
In reply to Re: Modern biochemistry and humanity » Amelia_in_StPaul, posted by Garnet71 on April 19, 2009, at 15:26:57
On Some Faraway Beach
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on April 19, 2009, at 15:48:11
In reply to Re: Modern biochemistry and humanity » Amelia_in_StPaul, posted by Garnet71 on April 19, 2009, at 15:26:57
Ahhh. I know what you mean about entrepreneurial ideas.
I think we should def. find an island with no one on it and start civilization over. We'll see if natural selection weeds the depressives & etc. out, or if it breeds a new, more scintillating race. :-)
> lol Amelia. You know, a depression colony does not sound as far fetched as one might think initially. Hmm. maybe we could partner up one day and start one? We could advertise on EscapeArtist. and Dr. Bob. lol
> Years ago, I had once thought of starting sort of personality design firm, and one component of it-using designer cognitive enhancers and drugs-seems to be coming true.
>
> Well ideas pop in my head all the time,but unfortunately, just about every entrepreunerial idea I've thought of, I learn someone else is doing it, or headed towards my idea. I bet someone right now is doing your idea. I guess that could equate to a retreat for people with mental health issues. I like that idea.
>
> What do you think, Larry?
Posted by garnet71 on April 19, 2009, at 20:10:55
In reply to Re: Modern biochemistry and humanity » Garnet71, posted by Sigismund on April 19, 2009, at 15:39:41
Sigi-that song sux... please don't bring it to our island...
lol
Posted by garnet71 on April 19, 2009, at 20:22:56
In reply to Re: Modern biochemistry and humanity » Garnet71, posted by Sigismund on April 19, 2009, at 15:39:41
We're going to listen to this instead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlk9Sj4Ns2k
We're going to sit around a big bonfire at night, some will smoke joints, some will not. I'll make homemade Pina Coladas with REAL coconut milk and pineapples...We'll have the torches lit, playing Bob Marley. We will have those cute string lights strewn around eveyrthing, you know, those colored string lights with the palm trees and stuff....We'll play fun games--like Truth or Dare :-) around the fire. And laugh and be silly.
We'll be laughing at all the people in America-waking up at 5:30 am, having to put suits on, to take the subway to work. Sitting in a cold, miserable, quiet office all day. collecting their pay check every week-so that they can buy a bigger house, a more upscale car, and designer classes for their kids...ANd we'll all reminisce how we used to do that too...and how much we hated it...then we'll go run around the sand...making sand angels...then run into the ocean, warm beautiful salt water..splashing and playing in the water..under the moonlight while hearing people laughing and talking in the background. It will never be cold there, but we will welcome rains...And we'll all be tan. Everyday.
Posted by garnet71 on April 19, 2009, at 20:33:36
In reply to Re: Modern biochemistry and humanity, posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on April 19, 2009, at 15:48:11
> I think we should def. find an island with no one on it and start civilization over. We'll see if natural selection weeds the depressives & etc. out, or if it breeds a new, more scintillating race. :-)
I think I like you Amelia :-) I don't have a good vocabulary, so I looked up that word: Perfect! Yeah, our island society will be scintillating. Our scintillating island society = O.S.I.S.; so reach into your vocabulary and find the A and make it spell oasis.
OASIS
Scintillating:
Amusing or pleasing because of wit or originality: clever, smart, sparkling, witty. See laughter.adj
Definition: bright, stimulating
Antonyms: blah, dull, matte
Posted by garnet71 on April 19, 2009, at 20:34:40
In reply to ~our scintillating island society~ » Amelia_in_StPaul, posted by garnet71 on April 19, 2009, at 20:33:36
I love that too:
Antonyms: blah, dull, matte
lol
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on April 19, 2009, at 22:16:05
In reply to ~our scintillating island society~ » Amelia_in_StPaul, posted by garnet71 on April 19, 2009, at 20:33:36
What about Our Absolutely Scintillating Island Society? ;-)
Let's go for it whhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
I love your vision of jamming to Bob Marley (previous post) on our island. Perhaps at OASIS we can also have opiods added to the water. Hoot! Hoot!
> > I think we should def. find an island with no one on it and start civilization over. We'll see if natural selection weeds the depressives & etc. out, or if it breeds a new, more scintillating race. :-)
>
> I think I like you Amelia :-) I don't have a good vocabulary, so I looked up that word: Perfect! Yeah, our island society will be scintillating. Our scintillating island society = O.S.I.S.; so reach into your vocabulary and find the A and make it spell oasis.
>
> OASIS
>
> Scintillating:
> Amusing or pleasing because of wit or originality: clever, smart, sparkling, witty. See laughter.
>
> adj
> Definition: bright, stimulating
> Antonyms: blah, dull, matte
>
>
Posted by desolationrower on April 24, 2009, at 17:22:14
In reply to Re: Modern biochemistry and humanity, posted by garnet71 on April 17, 2009, at 23:29:33
> See, that's not natural.
>
> I once knew a narcissist very well - and yeah, he was impressed by that sort of thing too, mostly dated rich women (except for me...lol). Some people feel important by hanging out with that crowd. Well, he was a military commander-and he loved that "power trip". It fed his primative needs.
>
> Well I don't see how you would fit in with that crowd. Will you come to my island? You can be the island psychiatrist... lol
>no...i am a picky eater and want to be the chef too, and that role already is doubly claimed....oh and i can't live w/o air conditioning. unless your island off the coast of ireland or something, then i could come visit, for as long i can avoid hunger...
-d/r
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on April 24, 2009, at 18:25:50
In reply to Re: Modern biochemistry and humanity, posted by desolationrower on April 24, 2009, at 17:22:14
But I can fan your face as long as you keep us sane. Doesn't that sound good? And hey, what about mango salsa on salmon--isn't that tasty? Tastes best on the island!
>
> no...i am a picky eater and want to be the chef too, and that role already is doubly claimed....oh and i can't live w/o air conditioning. unless your island off the coast of ireland or something, then i could come visit, for as long i can avoid hunger...
>
> -d/r
>
>
>
Posted by garnet71 on April 24, 2009, at 21:09:15
In reply to Re: Modern biochemistry and humanity, posted by desolationrower on April 24, 2009, at 17:22:14
I say all you guys do the cooking - I'll just lie in my hammock by the ocean or do some painting and crafts. And then think up recipes that you guys will have to make. Yeah, mango salsa and salmon sounds great....blackened red snapper...pecan crusted grouper...no problem thinking up recipes for someone else to cook.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]
Script revised: February 4, 2008
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