![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Cseagraves on February 9, 2009, at 11:50:43
Hello to all.
O.K. - here's whats been going on so far.
Started Marplan last Thursday at 10 mg.
1st day - not so bad, started feeling nauseous in the afternoon, mild headache and a little jittery.
2nd day - same thing nauseous, a little more jittery in afternoon, but headache had gotten worse.
3rd day - extreme nauseous to the point of throwing up, feeling of tremendous knot in stomach, no appetite what so ever. Jitteryness has turned to anxiety which is leading into depression.
4th day (yesterday)- nauseau and vomiting and diarrhea. Shaking all over. Agoraphobia and anxiety has hit an all time high. Didn't want to eat or move at all yesterday. (Actually wanted to just die. Have never felt like life wasn't worth living anymore.) I don't mean like commit suicide, but would have just been happy to die. I even called the suicide hot-line, which I have never done before.
I'm not understanding why my body seems to have such awful reactions to all meds. Have now been through most ssris, tca's, tried seroquel at one point which was an awful experience. And now I have tried an maoi.
Did anyone else have such an experience going on an maoi? Am wanting to call pdoc, but don't want to sound like a big baby. Was scared to take dosage today and I am supposed to move up to 20 mgs on Thursday.
The only thing that seems to give me any few hours of calmness is zanax. (.5) and I take 1.0 for sleep at night along with some melatonin.
Have dropped 5 lbs. since Thursday and the thought of food right now is repulsive. I have been forcing down protein shakes and trying to eat some food.
What's wrong with me? Is it maybe I just don't need these meds? It almost seems like taking them over a period of time has made me worse. Was thinking, if I can handle it, just maybe easing off of everything (with pdocs help) and learning to cope with the anxiety and agoraphobia issues without relying on meds. ( I know that I can handle zanax and remeron at low dosages).
Feel so lost and don't know what to do. After only being on the Marplan for 4 days, would it be o.k. just to stop it. How much worse could the side effects possibly be?
Please advice. I feel like I'm losing it.
Thanks,
Courtney
Posted by Justherself54 on February 9, 2009, at 12:29:59
In reply to Marplan - Is what is happening to me normal?, posted by Cseagraves on February 9, 2009, at 11:50:43
Call your doctor..these are pretty awful side effects. The one thing I noticed in your post was you were drinking protein shakes. I'd check into the ingredients..that could be attributing to what's happening...maoi's are tricky..I've had two trials with them and had to discontinue both due to side effects...
Don't feel like your are complaining to your doctor, please call!
Posted by fleeting flutterby on February 9, 2009, at 12:31:35
In reply to Marplan - Is what is happening to me normal?, posted by Cseagraves on February 9, 2009, at 11:50:43
Yikes, I'm so sorry you're having such a rough time. :o(
I have a theory-- in that, if one tries many meds and nothing seems to work long or at all-- then I bet it's NOT a chemical imbalance at all but a "cognitive problem/issue".
I've always been told and thought it should be a given that meds without some type of talk therapy is like playing russian roulette. I've been taught that the two should almost ALWAYS go hand in hand.(I agree with this)
I think the pharma-companies have let people be mislead that there is this "magic" pill that if taken, that alone will make ones life whole again, will be at peace....... The brain isn't JUST chemicals-- it is thought too-- and thoughts can be more powerful than chemicals at times. Take it from those that have healed from cancer by prayer/positive thought-- the mind is a powerful thing that sometimes we just don't give enough credit to nor attention to. (not saying everyone doesn't need meds-- just some need something more or something else)
anyway, that's my take on this subject for those that can't get help from meds...... it's all just my opinion-- after having talked to many therapists/psychologists.(in the last 10 years)
in any event, I so hope you can find something somewhere that can bring about peace for you.
many many hearts-- <3 <3 <3 <3 to you.flutterby-mandy
Posted by Maria3667 on February 9, 2009, at 12:59:03
In reply to Marplan - Is what is happening to me normal?, posted by Cseagraves on February 9, 2009, at 11:50:43
Hi Courtney,
Yes first of all consult your Dr.
Secondly, could it be that you have some sort of auto-immune disease?
I'm asking this because my body took a turn on meds too after developping Sjogren's Syndrome... Now I'm hypersensitive to most meds and need far lower than normal dosages.
I've also just started an MAOI (Eldepryl - Selegiline) but I take a tiny amount (1.25 mg every 2 days sublingually). And still I have a shadow of the side effects you are experiencing. Some other poster wrote on this board that people generally start off too high on MAOI's. Go low, go slow is my advice...
The shakes I've also given some consideration: maybe they contain tyramine?
Take care,
Maria> Hello to all.
>
> O.K. - here's whats been going on so far.
>
> Started Marplan last Thursday at 10 mg.
>
> 1st day - not so bad, started feeling nauseous in the afternoon, mild headache and a little jittery.
>
> 2nd day - same thing nauseous, a little more jittery in afternoon, but headache had gotten worse.
>
> 3rd day - extreme nauseous to the point of throwing up, feeling of tremendous knot in stomach, no appetite what so ever. Jitteryness has turned to anxiety which is leading into depression.
>
> 4th day (yesterday)- nauseau and vomiting and diarrhea. Shaking all over. Agoraphobia and anxiety has hit an all time high. Didn't want to eat or move at all yesterday. (Actually wanted to just die. Have never felt like life wasn't worth living anymore.) I don't mean like commit suicide, but would have just been happy to die. I even called the suicide hot-line, which I have never done before.
>
> I'm not understanding why my body seems to have such awful reactions to all meds. Have now been through most ssris, tca's, tried seroquel at one point which was an awful experience. And now I have tried an maoi.
>
> Did anyone else have such an experience going on an maoi? Am wanting to call pdoc, but don't want to sound like a big baby. Was scared to take dosage today and I am supposed to move up to 20 mgs on Thursday.
>
> The only thing that seems to give me any few hours of calmness is zanax. (.5) and I take 1.0 for sleep at night along with some melatonin.
>
> Have dropped 5 lbs. since Thursday and the thought of food right now is repulsive. I have been forcing down protein shakes and trying to eat some food.
>
> What's wrong with me? Is it maybe I just don't need these meds? It almost seems like taking them over a period of time has made me worse. Was thinking, if I can handle it, just maybe easing off of everything (with pdocs help) and learning to cope with the anxiety and agoraphobia issues without relying on meds. ( I know that I can handle zanax and remeron at low dosages).
>
> Feel so lost and don't know what to do. After only being on the Marplan for 4 days, would it be o.k. just to stop it. How much worse could the side effects possibly be?
>
> Please advice. I feel like I'm losing it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Courtney
Posted by Maria3667 on February 9, 2009, at 13:16:43
In reply to Re: Marplan - Is what is happening to me normal? » Cseagraves, posted by Maria3667 on February 9, 2009, at 12:59:03
Hi Courtney,
Just found this piece of information in another post about MAOI's on this board. Is says under 'Foods to avoid':
"Protein extracts - three brands of meat extract contained 95, 206, and 304 mcg/gram of tyramine and therefore meat extracts should be avoided (McCabe, 1986). Avoid liquid and powdered protein dietary supplements (Anon, 1989).
For the whole link see (with the courtesy of Dr. Bob): http://www.dr-bob.org/tips/maoi.htmlBest wishes,
Maria
Hi Courtney,
>
> Yes first of all consult your Dr.
>
> Secondly, could it be that you have some sort of auto-immune disease?
>
> I'm asking this because my body took a turn on meds too after developping Sjogren's Syndrome... Now I'm hypersensitive to most meds and need far lower than normal dosages.
>
> I've also just started an MAOI (Eldepryl - Selegiline) but I take a tiny amount (1.25 mg every 2 days sublingually). And still I have a shadow of the side effects you are experiencing. Some other poster wrote on this board that people generally start off too high on MAOI's. Go low, go slow is my advice...
>
> The shakes I've also given some consideration: maybe they contain tyramine?
>
> Take care,
> Maria
>
> > Hello to all.
> >
> > O.K. - here's whats been going on so far.
> >
> > Started Marplan last Thursday at 10 mg.
> >
> > 1st day - not so bad, started feeling nauseous in the afternoon, mild headache and a little jittery.
> >
> > 2nd day - same thing nauseous, a little more jittery in afternoon, but headache had gotten worse.
> >
> > 3rd day - extreme nauseous to the point of throwing up, feeling of tremendous knot in stomach, no appetite what so ever. Jitteryness has turned to anxiety which is leading into depression.
> >
> > 4th day (yesterday)- nauseau and vomiting and diarrhea. Shaking all over. Agoraphobia and anxiety has hit an all time high. Didn't want to eat or move at all yesterday. (Actually wanted to just die. Have never felt like life wasn't worth living anymore.) I don't mean like commit suicide, but would have just been happy to die. I even called the suicide hot-line, which I have never done before.
> >
> > I'm not understanding why my body seems to have such awful reactions to all meds. Have now been through most ssris, tca's, tried seroquel at one point which was an awful experience. And now I have tried an maoi.
> >
> > Did anyone else have such an experience going on an maoi? Am wanting to call pdoc, but don't want to sound like a big baby. Was scared to take dosage today and I am supposed to move up to 20 mgs on Thursday.
> >
> > The only thing that seems to give me any few hours of calmness is zanax. (.5) and I take 1.0 for sleep at night along with some melatonin.
> >
> > Have dropped 5 lbs. since Thursday and the thought of food right now is repulsive. I have been forcing down protein shakes and trying to eat some food.
> >
> > What's wrong with me? Is it maybe I just don't need these meds? It almost seems like taking them over a period of time has made me worse. Was thinking, if I can handle it, just maybe easing off of everything (with pdocs help) and learning to cope with the anxiety and agoraphobia issues without relying on meds. ( I know that I can handle zanax and remeron at low dosages).
> >
> > Feel so lost and don't know what to do. After only being on the Marplan for 4 days, would it be o.k. just to stop it. How much worse could the side effects possibly be?
> >
> > Please advice. I feel like I'm losing it.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Courtney
>
>
Posted by bulldog2 on February 9, 2009, at 13:39:10
In reply to Marplan - Is what is happening to me normal?, posted by Cseagraves on February 9, 2009, at 11:50:43
> Hello to all.
>
> O.K. - here's whats been going on so far.
>
> Started Marplan last Thursday at 10 mg.
>
> 1st day - not so bad, started feeling nauseous in the afternoon, mild headache and a little jittery.
>
> 2nd day - same thing nauseous, a little more jittery in afternoon, but headache had gotten worse.
>
> 3rd day - extreme nauseous to the point of throwing up, feeling of tremendous knot in stomach, no appetite what so ever. Jitteryness has turned to anxiety which is leading into depression.
>
> 4th day (yesterday)- nauseau and vomiting and diarrhea. Shaking all over. Agoraphobia and anxiety has hit an all time high. Didn't want to eat or move at all yesterday. (Actually wanted to just die. Have never felt like life wasn't worth living anymore.) I don't mean like commit suicide, but would have just been happy to die. I even called the suicide hot-line, which I have never done before.
>
> I'm not understanding why my body seems to have such awful reactions to all meds. Have now been through most ssris, tca's, tried seroquel at one point which was an awful experience. And now I have tried an maoi.
>
> Did anyone else have such an experience going on an maoi? Am wanting to call pdoc, but don't want to sound like a big baby. Was scared to take dosage today and I am supposed to move up to 20 mgs on Thursday.
>
> The only thing that seems to give me any few hours of calmness is zanax. (.5) and I take 1.0 for sleep at night along with some melatonin.
>
> Have dropped 5 lbs. since Thursday and the thought of food right now is repulsive. I have been forcing down protein shakes and trying to eat some food.
>
> What's wrong with me? Is it maybe I just don't need these meds? It almost seems like taking them over a period of time has made me worse. Was thinking, if I can handle it, just maybe easing off of everything (with pdocs help) and learning to cope with the anxiety and agoraphobia issues without relying on meds. ( I know that I can handle zanax and remeron at low dosages).
>
> Feel so lost and don't know what to do. After only being on the Marplan for 4 days, would it be o.k. just to stop it. How much worse could the side effects possibly be?
>
> Please advice. I feel like I'm losing it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> CourtneyMight want to start over at 5 mg and titrate up more slowly. You msy be med sensitive and from what I've read about Marplan this reaction does sound unusual.
Posted by myco on February 9, 2009, at 14:02:55
In reply to Marplan - Is what is happening to me normal?, posted by Cseagraves on February 9, 2009, at 11:50:43
Courtney,
hun youre going through startup/titration...remember we talked about this? Maois are not fun to start and titrate up to an effective dose...thought I had ya smilin and ready to rock Marplan :0( aw it's ok. um ok...you are med sensitive for sure, you mentioned that already (understanding how you react to meds is a great thing...means treatment is easier to find and get through...ya know, you already know you react poorly to side effects. this is nothing new)...but ya maois are intense to titrate.
I feel for ya, nardil was pretty heavy at times in terms of sides. i didnt get the nausea, see thats a deal breaker for me.
the next call is yours Courtney (well they are all anyway)...i mean if you want to stay on marplan or not. it has not even been a week yet though...I know that lil guy on your shoulder is tellin ya to push on through. If you truely feel you have an alternative plan then more power to you Courtney. But you will be ok, this isnt the death of you hun lol dont worry, i know it sucks at the moment...the tummy is my center, if its hungry or upset im useless...thats why i like tummy rubs :-)
keep me posted with your decision, ya gonna be ok. you can always lower the dose and move slower
*hugs
myco
Posted by Cseagraves on February 9, 2009, at 17:41:42
In reply to Marplan - Is what is happening to me normal?, posted by Cseagraves on February 9, 2009, at 11:50:43
Hey and thanks for all the post.
Just talked to pdoc. He said he wants me to come off the marplan for a couple of days and then to call him while he thinks this through. He's either going to start me off at a lower dosage or decide to take me off all together.
I figure that will give me a couple of days to think through what I want to do also.
I forgot to mention when I posted earlier was that the one thing that stayed normal was my BP. It has stayed an even 110/70.
Someone had mentioned something about my protein shakes. They don't contain any aminos, so I don't think that was causing a problem.
Have alot to think about, but thanks to everyone for all your help and support.
Much love,
Courtney
Posted by bleauberry on February 9, 2009, at 18:20:10
In reply to Marplan - Is what is happening to me normal?, posted by Cseagraves on February 9, 2009, at 11:50:43
Those are pretty serious side effects. Glad you are temporarily off.
If you start again, start at 2.5mg by splitting the pills, and only do one every other day for week before attempting daily. Plan on a slow rampup rather than a textbook rampup.
Autoimmune was mentioned and that makes sense. If you are hypersensitive, you will need very low doses, and your response dose will also be lower than the normal dose someone else would take. It could be you are allergic to something in it, in which case you shouldn't take it at all. But you mentioned sensitivity to other meds, so that is autoimmune suspect. Very low doses and a slower titration work good for sensitive biochemistries.
And yes, avoid the protein shakes. They are full of aminos. Actually, that's all they are and nothing else. Protein is pure amino acids. You are getting a lot of phenylalanine and tyrosine without enough tryptophan to balance it out.
I know it sounds stupid, but really, there is no substitute for a balanced diet. For every measure of protein you consume, it needs an equal measure of carbs, and a equal measure of raw veggies, and an equal measure of fruit. In your quest for nourishment during the nausea you probably would have done a ton better by consuming breads and cereals and fruits and veggies instead of protein shakes. Geez, protein shakes all by themselves without a drug will give me the shakes, jitteriness, and nausea really scary. I couldn't imagine already feeling that way on a new med and adding a protein shake to it. Oh my.
Posted by Phillipa on February 9, 2009, at 23:49:56
In reply to Re: Marplan - Is what is happening to me normal? » Cseagraves, posted by bleauberry on February 9, 2009, at 18:20:10
BB I've always liked protein shakes taken them for years. All brands from Shaklee to Whey to melaluca no side effects at all. Just good protein in my opinion only . Now I'm not on an Maoi. Also gone today all day trip to pdoc who said what fleeting said my pdoc said meds are a bandaid to me to get theaphy and hormones tested for bioidentical estrogen, and also that thyroid the worset for anxiety depression. She is honest with me hence stick with here. She also said to stay on current xanax, valium, and low dose luvox. Security blanket she said. Phillipa
Posted by Vincent_QC on February 10, 2009, at 7:27:14
In reply to Marplan - Is what is happening to me normal?, posted by Cseagraves on February 9, 2009, at 11:50:43
> Hello to all.
>
> O.K. - here's whats been going on so far.
>
> Started Marplan last Thursday at 10 mg.
>
> 1st day - not so bad, started feeling nauseous in the afternoon, mild headache and a little jittery.
>
> 2nd day - same thing nauseous, a little more jittery in afternoon, but headache had gotten worse.
>
> 3rd day - extreme nauseous to the point of throwing up, feeling of tremendous knot in stomach, no appetite what so ever. Jitteryness has turned to anxiety which is leading into depression.
>
> 4th day (yesterday)- nauseau and vomiting and diarrhea. Shaking all over. Agoraphobia and anxiety has hit an all time high. Didn't want to eat or move at all yesterday. (Actually wanted to just die. Have never felt like life wasn't worth living anymore.) I don't mean like commit suicide, but would have just been happy to die. I even called the suicide hot-line, which I have never done before.
>
> I'm not understanding why my body seems to have such awful reactions to all meds. Have now been through most ssris, tca's, tried seroquel at one point which was an awful experience. And now I have tried an maoi.
>
> Did anyone else have such an experience going on an maoi? Am wanting to call pdoc, but don't want to sound like a big baby. Was scared to take dosage today and I am supposed to move up to 20 mgs on Thursday.
>
> The only thing that seems to give me any few hours of calmness is zanax. (.5) and I take 1.0 for sleep at night along with some melatonin.
>
> Have dropped 5 lbs. since Thursday and the thought of food right now is repulsive. I have been forcing down protein shakes and trying to eat some food.
>
> What's wrong with me? Is it maybe I just don't need these meds? It almost seems like taking them over a period of time has made me worse. Was thinking, if I can handle it, just maybe easing off of everything (with pdocs help) and learning to cope with the anxiety and agoraphobia issues without relying on meds. ( I know that I can handle zanax and remeron at low dosages).
>
> Feel so lost and don't know what to do. After only being on the Marplan for 4 days, would it be o.k. just to stop it. How much worse could the side effects possibly be?
>
> Please advice. I feel like I'm losing it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> CourtneyHi Courtney!
Hummm...you're not alone in the same boat.MAOI are not suppose to give a lot of side-effects at first like the one you describe...Since it's your first time on a MAOI, it can be harder for a couple of days, I can only say that don't give up...
My first Nardil experience was ok, no weight gain, no hypertension, but when I hit the target dose of 90mg it begin to be extremely difficult to continue because of the hypotension orthostatic problem so I just stop.
When I start the Parnate it was ok, until I reach the 20-30 mg/day...that perhaps because it's more potent than the Nardil, more NE activity I think...anyway since than my blood pressure is high...I have to take a test for my heart next week (ECG or EKG)...as well as others blood test (T3, T4, lithium level and things like these).
The Marplan is suppose to be the MAOI with the lower side-effects profile...I guess he hit more the SE than the others ones.
I also switch from Nardil to Parnate and to Nardil again a week ago, and that's not include the 3 days I do on the RIMA (Manerix)...I developp the same kinds of side-effects you name (panic attacks with agoraphobia or without, increase anxiety, a LOT more nervous in general, headache, and the list goes on...so I just take a break of all the MAOI's for now.
I meet my PDoc yesterday and I start a new type of drugs for me, a TCA...funny, you write that you try them...semm that they was not very helpfull for you...IT will be my first time on a TCA, and i'm full of hope, even if I read a lot of BAD comments about them...
The PDoc and I choose the Clomipramine, something between Imipramine and desperimine for the side-effects. Anyway nothing can be more difficult than a MAOI (as far as side-effects profile), especially the Parnate (for me, not for everyone). We hope it will be helpfull for me. I start the Clomipramine next friday, since I have to be at least 7-10 days free of MAOI before I start it, 20mg/day the first week and 50 the week after. The PDoc show me a lot of studies about the fact that Clomipramine was most efficiently than any newer SSRI's or SRNI's to treat resistant problems like depression or anxiety...He also explain to me that social anxiety never really exist before the 1990...I mean as a disease...so the lack of good studies made by good research Doctors (not the ones you can find on pubmed website) claim that Clomipramine is by far a lot more effective than the newer stuff...so we will see...
Since I read a lot of old post about the fact that Clomipramine and TCA's in general don't help a lot and they all share a lot of side-effects, I just decide to stop reading all the old post and I will make my own opinion about them...
I know that normally TCA are note very helpfull for social anxiety but at least, if I can improve on the depression and lack of motivation and with my panic disorder, I think the others problems will resolve with time. Being free of anxiety symptoms in a social events will help me to feel more comfortable in front of the others...no??? That's what I think...
So for now the MAOI's plan is on the hold on...but the importation of the Marplan in Canada is in process...The SPA program from health Canada will take care of my PDoc quering...My PDoc send the letter about me ...since it's a long process, for now I will try the Clomipramine...anyway I can't be worse than now.
Anyway, I don't reply to your message to complaint about my problems...that was not the point...I guess I needed to talk a little bit (write will be more appropriate...lol).
I really hope the side-effects will fade away for you... I'm sure it's only temporary...
IF I well remember, you're the one who wanted to be switched to the Parnate no? So you choose the Marplan as the first MAOI run???
I'm not an expert on drugs, a lot of people on this board seem to know TONS of informations that I can't imagine.. BUT i'm sure of one thing...WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT...so this is not because someone here will write that Marplan is the weakest MAOI that you have to believe him...people with anxiety (social or general) will often make them-self sick just by reading false informations on the Internet of just by reading the experiences from others users... Dont do like I do often...bad influences from the others experiences are not always positives... I don't argue about the fact that the others people experience are not usefull when they are share here, but don't forget that it's different for everyone...I don't know someone who will have the same side-effects than me...
The same apply for my problems, it's not because I read that TCA's are not good for social phobia that it will not help me...I think the brain is so powerfull that just reading the side-effects profile of a drug before starting it, can increase the chance to developp side-effects when you will start the drug...you understand what I mean I hope???
I can only give you an advise...if you don't feel really good, maybe try to firstly call your PDoc and ask if it's normal...another strategy will be to cut the pill in 2...take only 5mg before bedtime, I always find drugs more easy to be take at first at bedtime because when you sleep, you canno't feel the side-effects...of course I use 50mg of Seroquel to put me asleep so that's maybe more easy for me to take drugs at bedtime, even if they can cause insomnia...but well..call your PDOC ok ;-)
Don't take any chance...having side-effects is normal but when they don't fade away after 1 or 2 weeks that's not normal...
Anyway, i'm always ready to talk with you...give me some of your news ok...
Since I will probably start the Marplan in 1 month (if Clomipramine dont work), your story will be a good source of inspiration for me ;-) Dont forget that I had no side-effect on the Nardil and tons of side-effects on the Parnate...and if you read a lot of posts in this board, people will normally post more bad review about the Nardil than the Parnate...so the Marplan is maybe the good choice for you, even if at first, it's hard to tolerate the side-effects... another point is to go slowly...That's my biggest problem...I Want to go fast so I increase my dosage without advise my PDoc...I think I never understand that...I will learn it one of these days I hope!!!
Take care of you ok ;-)
Have a nice day, even if I know it's hard for you now!!! I understand you so much...I will think of you and send all the positives thoughts I can have to you!!!
Bye!
Vincent ;-)
Posted by myco on February 10, 2009, at 13:10:54
In reply to Re: Marplan - Is what is happening to me normal? » Cseagraves, posted by Vincent_QC on February 10, 2009, at 7:27:14
Hey Vince,
If youre dabbling in the world of TCA anyway....have you read about or thought about trying 'Doxepin' (www.mentalhealth.com/drug/p30-s03.html)? This is one of the TCA's on my list to try if I try TCA's (in fact probably will be my first TCA trial if/when I do (well I tried amitrip. which was blah gargabe for me)...Ive read studies which show that is pretty effective for those of us who suffer alot of anxiety (like social anxiety, gad, etc..). Think about this mabye? I'm sure your pdoc will know about it, it's old.
myco
Posted by Cseagraves on February 10, 2009, at 14:16:28
In reply to Marplan - Is what is happening to me normal?, posted by Cseagraves on February 9, 2009, at 11:50:43
Hi again to all!
Went to go and see my GP today and told him what had been going on. We had a long talk and he gave me a book to read by David Brownstein, MD called "Drugs that don't work". I'm sure some of you are already aware of this information, but wanted to write some of what is said about the use of ssri's.
The brain works to try and maintain homestasis. During stressful situation, the brain will increase the productin of certain neurotransmitters (adrenaline) and hormones (nonadrenaline) to help the body respond to stress. During relaxation, other neurotransmitters (seratonin) and hormones (melatonin) are produced to help the body relax.
Many things can disrupt the brain's ability to maintain homeostasis. Nutritional deficiencies can disrupt many vital functions in the body, including the maintenance of homeostasis. When there are vitamin and mineral deficiencies, the body will be unable to create the precursors necessary for the adequate production of neurotransmitters and hormones If the body does not have the basic raw materials to manufacture the substances it desires, homeostasis cannot be maintained. The end results of these deficiencies are the onset of chronic illness such as depression, anxiety, ADHD, cancer and fatigue.
Drugs can also disrupt the brains ability to achieve and maintain homeostasis. Drugs that block receptors or poison enzymes will, by their nature, disrupt the normal functioning of the body. The end result of many drug therapies is an inability of the body to achieve and maintain homeostasis.
The most commonly used antidepressant drugs all block receptors or poison enzymes in the brain, as well as in other tissues in the body. For the ssri's the substance that is most commonly disrupted is serotonin. It is impossible to achieve your optimal health by poisoning a crucial enzyme or blocking an important receptor for the long-term.
It is known that serotonin can affect many different areas of the brain by binding to its receptors. However, the effect of serotonin is not consistent between different individuals In some, it may cause happiness; in others sadness.
According to the Big Pharma, serotonin deficiency is thought to underlie many cases of depression. Big Pharma has created a whole class of medications that poison an important enzyme in order to promote higher serotonin levels in the brain. In order for the cells of the brain to communicate with one another, there has to be adequate amounts of all of the neurotransmitters. The brain cannot think, feel, keep us alert, or perform any of its vital functions without the optimal production and ratio of neurotransmitters.
SSRI's are the most widely prescribed psychiatric medications and generate billions of dollars in sales. According the Big Pharma, the ssri's were developed to lessen the side effects associated with the older classes of antidepressants. Furthermore, the newer classes of antidepressants were touted as more effective than the older classes of medications.
Unfortunately, the research has shown that the ssri's are neither more effective nor have few side effects as compared to the older class of antidepressants. The ads for the antidepressants claim that antidepressant medications, especially ssri's, effectively treat imbalances in the neurotransmitters. The imbalance is generally referred to as a serotonin deficiency. It is interesting that patients are being told they have a serotonin imbalance or a chemcial imbalance in their brain even though they have never had their serotonin levels measured.
Big Pharma would have you believe that low levels of neurotransmitters such as serotonin and/or dopamine are the underlying causes of depression. Therefore, Big Pharma's logic would dictate that in order to elevate the low levels, ou need a drug that blocks the reuptake of the neurotransmitters.
However, Big Pharma's logic does not make sense We must keep in mind that depression is not an illness that is caused by an "antidepressant medication deficiency". If someone is deficient in a neurotransmitter(s), then why not supplement with the agent(s) necessary to increase the neurotransmitters?
Serotonin reuptake inhibitors have been studied for over 25 years. Although Big Pharma would have you believe otherwise, little is known about much of the effects of serotonin (or the other neurotransmitters) in the brain Big Pharma gives doctors seminars and glossy brochures telling them the virtues of blocking the reuptake of serotonin in the brain. Over 90% of the body's serotonin is produced OUTSIDE the brain. What are the consequences of blocking the reuptake of serotonin outside the brain? No one knows. There have been no studies looking at this.
Anyway, he goes on to talk more about healthy levels of amino acids in the body. That a deficiency in tryptophan can lead to a deficiency in a serotonin. He also talks about unbalanced hormones in women and vitamin D deficiency can cause depression and anxiety, which I am deficient in both, but am working hard to get them straight.
All I know is that until about a year ago, I could handle my little anxieties with small doses of zanax. Because of alot of stressful things that were going on at that time, I had my first nervous breakdown. My pdoc (at the time) decided that he thought I was bi-polar, which I totally disagreed with. I showed no symptoms of that condition. The conditions that were very apparent, were extreme anxiety and panic. He decided to put me on Seroquel, which was some god awful sh*t. He would'nt listen to me when I tried to tell him that I couldn't handle the med at the dosage he was trying to get me to which was 400mgs daily.
So, I switched pdocs. The new one agreed that I wasn't bi-polar. Extreme GAD and Panic, which has now led itself into agoraphobia. Since then every med I have tried I have had severe reactions to. I am more upset now that I probably never needed an anti-psychotic to begin with and all of these different ssris, tca's and now trying an maoi has made my condition worse instead of better.
Not sure what to do at this point. I have alot of thinking to do. I'm sure that starting me out at 10 mgs of Marplan was to high a dosage and I should have known better. My head has still not quit spinning and nauseau is still very persistant. Legs feel like jelly and still have awful headache, feel almost like flu symptoms. Not sure how much of this is med and how much of this is nerves at this point.
I know everyone is different and responds to meds differently, but I don't think I can handle feeling like this anymore trying any more meds. Am even to scared at this point to try Marplan at a lower dosage.
I will be discussing things further with pdoc in a couple of days.
Thanks for listening and all of your advice.
Courtney
Posted by bleauberry on February 10, 2009, at 17:45:56
In reply to Re: Marplan - Maybe to scared to go back!, posted by Cseagraves on February 10, 2009, at 14:16:28
My heart goes out to you. I definitely feel your pain because I have been through the exact same scenario as you quite a few times. The typical pattern is that I will try a new med, it goes real bad, I bail out in short time, and then I'm too scared to try anything else. After some time, maybe a few weeks, the burden becomes so heavy that I realize I have to do something. All my supplements, neurotransmitter precursors, and anything I try, are doing nothing helpful at all.
So, I make the decision on a new med or combination of meds, and start with tiny tiny tiny little doses. They all ended up bad, well, except for one. When I started Milnacipran I thought for sure it was going to make me feel really bad. I've had NE drugs before and they were aweful. But somehow this drug seemed different. Anyway, I was so surprised I can't tell you how much, that it was actually working beginning on day 2. Wow. It had been so long since I had felt that. That drug gave me horrible urinary problems though, even at tiny doses, so I have to figure a way to fix that before trying it again.
I thought it was interesting that the dose that had me feeling so much better was about 1/4 of the usual starting dose. I think too often doctors push for "normal" doses when in fact no one knows what a normal dose is for YOU. Only for someone else where it worked. Everyone has a different normal dose. Some extremely low, some very high.
I don't agree with the neurotransmitter theory. I instead believe it has to do with the BALANCE of neurotransmitters. One or the other or several are out of balance, for that particular person depending on their genetics, environmental insults, or organic disease. Nobody knows what the correct balance for you or me is, so it is trial and error to find it. So when someone throws an ssri at me, I just have to laugh and say, how do you know my serotonin is low, and how do you know it isn't something else out of balance?
The book you mentioned makes a lot of sense. I have read that and others like it. The problem is that the strategies in those books rarely work out in the real world. They sound good on paper. They work miracles sometimes. Not often. They all share the same disclaimer too. That is, if you are severely depressed, you need to see a doctor and probably be on a medicine, work on the natural biological things later in an attempt to reduce or eliminate the med.
Maybe it isn't a deficiency of serotonin. ACtually, if it was, then the first dose should fix it, right? But it doesn't. It takes weeks. Instead, I think somehow artificially increasing levels of neurotransmitters causes other brain adaptations that end up targetting the real problem, though we may never know what that target actually was.
Keep in mind, unless a SSRI is given in moderate to high doses, it only partially blocks receptors. Same with MAOIs and enzymes. With a low enough dose, some blockade can happen to lead to recovery, and yet enough is left open for normal function. Studies have proved that low doses can and do work, even very low ones. The drawback is that they take longer to work. Where a full dose takes a few weeks to work, a low dose might take more like 12 to 16 weeks. The upside is that less biological manipulation is happening, and a lot less side effects are happening. Which is real important for someone like you or me who is extremely sensitive.
Point in example...for me 6mg Milnacipran does for me what it takes 100mg do to do someone else, and the minimum "supposed" dose is 25mg. Just to put things in perspective.
Posted by JadeKelly on February 11, 2009, at 1:39:48
In reply to Re: Marplan - Maybe to scared to go back! » Cseagraves, posted by bleauberry on February 10, 2009, at 17:45:56
Hi Courtney,
Geez, you are having a hard time. It seems like the research end of this could be detrimental to you in and of itself. But I know you can't be comfortable without knowing as much as possible. And If you can do that, with out making yourself worse thats great!!! I'm concerned that all this conflicting information coming at you at once is becoming extremely stressful for you.
Can you just "be" for a little bit? Play with the kids, go to the park on a nice day. Spoil yourself. Relax? I think your anxiety level is so high right now trying to figure out this med stuff it is making yourself worse. If you can't leave the house, get delivery carry out, watch movies, whatever you have to do to get a few days peace at least.
When Bleauberry wrote this:"I don't agree with the neurotransmitter theory. I instead believe it has to do with the BALANCE of neurotransmitters. One or the other or several are out of balance, for that particular person depending on their genetics, environmental insults, or organic disease. Nobody knows what the correct balance for you or me is, so it is trial and error to find it. So when someone throws an ssri at me, I just have to laugh and say, how do you know my serotonin is low, and how do you know it isn't something else out of balance?"
A few years ago I was a "normal" happy person.I was a good mom, I made a substantial amount of $ running my own business, looking forward to a very early retirement. I was/am very close to my (large) family. Then in a record amount of time I, personally, and my family as a whole was bombarded by a number of "environmental insults" I can only imagine reading about. I cannot imagine what those losses did to me physically and mentally over the long run. I know what they did to me in the short run.
Courtney, there is not a person alive that could convince me that herbs, good diet, excersize, vitamins, sound diet, etc would have *touched* the kind of depression I felt. I needed strong meds, and I needed em yesterday. I went thru every kind of side effect imaginable with Parnate.But I was being "taken care of" by a PDoc who didn't care that I was slowly going in to shock. My mother had to go to my last appt with him to find out why I was so sick.
Unless I was in danger I couldn't have given a rat's a*s what side effects I had to endure. They couldn't be any worse than the hell I was in. I knew I was going on the most powerful a/d I could find and I was skipping the others. I wasn't in the mood for trials. My PDoc (new) now says I would have ended up on an MAOI anyway.
My point, I geuss, is that I think deep down you don't believe meds are okay for you to take. So don't! You'll take em if you are ready. I have no regrets, I don't read studies anymore. I have my life back.
One last thought, NO medication could do the damage that Major Depression Disorder was doing to me in every way imaginable. Maybe it is that we have to choose between the lesser of two evils. For me, that choice was easy. I hope you find peace.
(Hope its ok I reprinted that Bleauberry.)
~Jade
Posted by Vincent_QC on February 11, 2009, at 8:39:28
In reply to Vince - a possible TCA trial for you (VINCE) » Vincent_QC, posted by myco on February 10, 2009, at 13:10:54
> Hey Vince,
>
> If youre dabbling in the world of TCA anyway....have you read about or thought about trying 'Doxepin' (www.mentalhealth.com/drug/p30-s03.html)? This is one of the TCA's on my list to try if I try TCA's (in fact probably will be my first TCA trial if/when I do (well I tried amitrip. which was blah gargabe for me)...Ive read studies which show that is pretty effective for those of us who suffer alot of anxiety (like social anxiety, gad, etc..). Think about this mabye? I'm sure your pdoc will know about it, it's old.
>
> mycoHi Myco!
In fact, I begin friday the Clomipramine, it's an idea that I suggest to my PDOc... In all the TCA's list, it's the one who hit more the SE and less the NE...so mean less heart problem for me...we will see...I know the Doxepin...I talk about it also to my PDoc, since i'm already a lot tired at daytime and that I need something more energizing for me, it will not help me to add a TCA who will make me apathic and without any energy at daytime...
We will see...anyway I have an emergency plan if the Clomipramine fail... it's call the Marplan...another maoi...but for now, I think that I give to MAOI a good try...it's time to move to another category of drugs...
I will keep you inform about the Clomipramine ok ;-) For a good source of information about TCA'S just go on wikipedia, they sorts all the TCA's in a "table" and you can compare them together...what they hit (SE, NE, DA and others things like these..that's a good source of informations I think...but that's just a wikipedia page...mean that I don't trust it a 100%...
Have a great day !
Bye!
VInce ;-)
Posted by Vincent_QC on February 12, 2009, at 6:29:44
In reply to Re: Marplan - Maybe to scared to go back!, posted by Cseagraves on February 10, 2009, at 14:16:28
> Hi again to all!
>
> Went to go and see my GP today and told him what had been going on. We had a long talk and he gave me a book to read by David Brownstein, MD called "Drugs that don't work". I'm sure some of you are already aware of this information, but wanted to write some of what is said about the use of ssri's.
>
> The brain works to try and maintain homestasis. During stressful situation, the brain will increase the productin of certain neurotransmitters (adrenaline) and hormones (nonadrenaline) to help the body respond to stress. During relaxation, other neurotransmitters (seratonin) and hormones (melatonin) are produced to help the body relax.
>
> Many things can disrupt the brain's ability to maintain homeostasis. Nutritional deficiencies can disrupt many vital functions in the body, including the maintenance of homeostasis. When there are vitamin and mineral deficiencies, the body will be unable to create the precursors necessary for the adequate production of neurotransmitters and hormones If the body does not have the basic raw materials to manufacture the substances it desires, homeostasis cannot be maintained. The end results of these deficiencies are the onset of chronic illness such as depression, anxiety, ADHD, cancer and fatigue.
>
> Drugs can also disrupt the brains ability to achieve and maintain homeostasis. Drugs that block receptors or poison enzymes will, by their nature, disrupt the normal functioning of the body. The end result of many drug therapies is an inability of the body to achieve and maintain homeostasis.
>
> The most commonly used antidepressant drugs all block receptors or poison enzymes in the brain, as well as in other tissues in the body. For the ssri's the substance that is most commonly disrupted is serotonin. It is impossible to achieve your optimal health by poisoning a crucial enzyme or blocking an important receptor for the long-term.
>
> It is known that serotonin can affect many different areas of the brain by binding to its receptors. However, the effect of serotonin is not consistent between different individuals In some, it may cause happiness; in others sadness.
>
> According to the Big Pharma, serotonin deficiency is thought to underlie many cases of depression. Big Pharma has created a whole class of medications that poison an important enzyme in order to promote higher serotonin levels in the brain. In order for the cells of the brain to communicate with one another, there has to be adequate amounts of all of the neurotransmitters. The brain cannot think, feel, keep us alert, or perform any of its vital functions without the optimal production and ratio of neurotransmitters.
>
> SSRI's are the most widely prescribed psychiatric medications and generate billions of dollars in sales. According the Big Pharma, the ssri's were developed to lessen the side effects associated with the older classes of antidepressants. Furthermore, the newer classes of antidepressants were touted as more effective than the older classes of medications.
>
> Unfortunately, the research has shown that the ssri's are neither more effective nor have few side effects as compared to the older class of antidepressants. The ads for the antidepressants claim that antidepressant medications, especially ssri's, effectively treat imbalances in the neurotransmitters. The imbalance is generally referred to as a serotonin deficiency. It is interesting that patients are being told they have a serotonin imbalance or a chemcial imbalance in their brain even though they have never had their serotonin levels measured.
>
> Big Pharma would have you believe that low levels of neurotransmitters such as serotonin and/or dopamine are the underlying causes of depression. Therefore, Big Pharma's logic would dictate that in order to elevate the low levels, ou need a drug that blocks the reuptake of the neurotransmitters.
>
> However, Big Pharma's logic does not make sense We must keep in mind that depression is not an illness that is caused by an "antidepressant medication deficiency". If someone is deficient in a neurotransmitter(s), then why not supplement with the agent(s) necessary to increase the neurotransmitters?
>
> Serotonin reuptake inhibitors have been studied for over 25 years. Although Big Pharma would have you believe otherwise, little is known about much of the effects of serotonin (or the other neurotransmitters) in the brain Big Pharma gives doctors seminars and glossy brochures telling them the virtues of blocking the reuptake of serotonin in the brain. Over 90% of the body's serotonin is produced OUTSIDE the brain. What are the consequences of blocking the reuptake of serotonin outside the brain? No one knows. There have been no studies looking at this.
>
> Anyway, he goes on to talk more about healthy levels of amino acids in the body. That a deficiency in tryptophan can lead to a deficiency in a serotonin. He also talks about unbalanced hormones in women and vitamin D deficiency can cause depression and anxiety, which I am deficient in both, but am working hard to get them straight.
>
> All I know is that until about a year ago, I could handle my little anxieties with small doses of zanax. Because of alot of stressful things that were going on at that time, I had my first nervous breakdown. My pdoc (at the time) decided that he thought I was bi-polar, which I totally disagreed with. I showed no symptoms of that condition. The conditions that were very apparent, were extreme anxiety and panic. He decided to put me on Seroquel, which was some god awful sh*t. He would'nt listen to me when I tried to tell him that I couldn't handle the med at the dosage he was trying to get me to which was 400mgs daily.
>
> So, I switched pdocs. The new one agreed that I wasn't bi-polar. Extreme GAD and Panic, which has now led itself into agoraphobia. Since then every med I have tried I have had severe reactions to. I am more upset now that I probably never needed an anti-psychotic to begin with and all of these different ssris, tca's and now trying an maoi has made my condition worse instead of better.
>
> Not sure what to do at this point. I have alot of thinking to do. I'm sure that starting me out at 10 mgs of Marplan was to high a dosage and I should have known better. My head has still not quit spinning and nauseau is still very persistant. Legs feel like jelly and still have awful headache, feel almost like flu symptoms. Not sure how much of this is med and how much of this is nerves at this point.
>
> I know everyone is different and responds to meds differently, but I don't think I can handle feeling like this anymore trying any more meds. Am even to scared at this point to try Marplan at a lower dosage.
>
> I will be discussing things further with pdoc in a couple of days.
>
> Thanks for listening and all of your advice.
>
> Courtney
>
Hi Courtney...
Well...that's a long post. I have to admit that i'm not with you at 100% on that one and I will explain why...The main problem is that since the 50's, not a lot of things improve in the psychiatric field. They work around chimical drug who act on SE, NE and DA as well as others neurons in the brains...All begin with the MAOI's...at the same time, the BIG pharma industry decide that they was too dangerous so they developp others drugs who became the TCA's...Impramine was the first one...the work around it, clean up the drug a little bit and others TCA's became avaible on the market...they was suppose to have fewer side-effects but we all know that it was not the case, since everybody react differently to a drug...And the same process apply now, the developp the SSRI's drugs who was suppose to be less dangerous with less side-effects...but that's was not the case also...they work on SE and NE (dual) AD's and now they work on a newer SE, NE, DA (triple action) that will hit the market soon...
The biggest problem is that nobodies seem to know why some people get depressive, phobic, anxious or developp others psychiatric problems...It seem that newer psychiatrict disease also occur with the change in the society...Social anxiety is one of them... I do believe that something is not well balanced in the brains of people with this kind of disease, but I do believe also that the SOCIETY is responsable of all the problems also...The lifestyle is now really stressfull, everybody need to be more productivce and more competitive, we live in a world where apparence are more important than the inside of the people, I mean that if you don't fit in the "standards" of this new society, you will be exclude...and I think that this exclusion is mostly responsable of the way people feels today...and i'm not surprise that more and more people get sick, depressive and anxious...
I don't think that psychiatrict diseases are well understand by Doctors, PDoc or any Doctor in the research field and I do belive that the SE or the NE or the DA is responsable of the improve that people find on drugs like AD's.
If you look in the litterature from the 50's to the 21 century...not a lot of things improve, in fact, old drugs like the MAOI's or the TCA's are more effective than the newer drugs, but since the BIG pharma don't want to make some REAL studies comparing older drugs with newer drugs, we will never know if the newer drugs are effective or not...
One thing is sure, when it's time to choose a new way to treat and control my social phobia and my general anxiety and depression, I always think about old drugs cause they are the most studies drugs on the Market, they are cheap, you are sure that you don't give your money to the BIG Pharma compagny and they give at least some improve and positives results... The newer drugs are always worst, the have more side-effects and I still don'T understant why the FDA or health Canada approved them and claim that they work more well than the olders drugs and that they are less dangerous then the MAOI or the TCA's...
One thing is sure also, it's seem to be a real "genetic" factor to the psychiatricts diseases. So the SE, NE or DA seem to not be the only neurons affects on these diseases...The fact is that the brain is a very difficult organ to study and the science is not well developp for now... I don't think the research field go in the good direction for now and they don't point out the goods things to hit in the brains to make drugs effective...
So I understand why you feel angry against Big Pharma, like I already wrote, we are all in the same boat...We all hate trying newer AD's or drugs, we all hate side-effects...but we all looking for some improvements... Some people are lucky and answer well to drugs and others like US don't answer well and have to try everything on the Market use on-label and off-label to treat and control their disease...I'm also a LOT TIRED of trying new drugs and always have to switch from a drug to another one each 3 months or so. Sometimes I just wondering if I don't just loose my time and if it will be a better idea to stop trying and taking any drugs at all and just continue to live my life the best I Can...Other days I feel that I have to continue and I believe that I will find the magic pill to treat me...Anyway...
Now i'm in the same boat than you...I'm over anxious, i'm doing at least 3 panic attacks by day for no appareant reason, I'm always tired, I have no memory, I feel like an old person of 90 years old, with no memory at all and like I just wating to die...(Sorry, I don't want to offense people)...it's the way I feel. The worst in all that, is that i'm only 33yo...and I have nothing in my life, no money, no job, I never finish the University, that a miracle that I Was able to go to the university anyway, I have only one bed and some furnitures that's it...It's all what I was able to achieve in my life... I canno't make new friends, I have a 0 social life (only one friend), nothing interrest me now, i'm aphatic as hell, I don't care about anything except my own health, I have tons of student loans to refund ( 20 000$) but i'm in a freaking mental health that just getting worse since 2 years...I don't eat well, I don't exercise, I need to diet and exercise and stop smooking, I have to end my last year at the university (but I don't have any interrest in my studies field now, I lost it sometimes in the 2 years break I take from the school)... I have so many things in my head that I canno't improve...I'm just too much anxious about everything that it make me a bitter person... No wonder why nobody in the real life want to be my friend...because i'm just really difficult to handle in real person...I'm negative as hell but I try to change but that's not working, I don't like people in general, i'm not smilling, i'm shy but at the same time I can be really direct with the others...that's so weird...I suffer from social anxiety but at the same time I hate all the people around me(that I didn't know) and I like to schock them... That's a lot of contradictions no???
Well i'm completly lost in the subject now...
I just want to tell you that i'm with you at 100%. Follow your PDoc directives and be carefull with yourself ok...take it easy..I know that's easy to write but not to do...i'm in the same boat than you remember this and you're not the only one who feel like you feel now... The magic pill don't exist so we have to cope with life the best we can...
Take care of you Courtney ok!!!
Vincent ;-)
Posted by Phillipa on February 12, 2009, at 19:05:58
In reply to Re: Marplan - Maybe to scared to go back! » Cseagraves, posted by Vincent_QC on February 12, 2009, at 6:29:44
Vincent so sorry you have suffered so many loses. Is there a time frame or a trigger so to speak when all this started for you? Love Phillipa
Posted by Vincent_QC on February 12, 2009, at 23:31:20
In reply to Re: Marplan - Maybe to scared to go back! » Vincent_QC, posted by Phillipa on February 12, 2009, at 19:05:58
> Vincent so sorry you have suffered so many loses. Is there a time frame or a trigger so to speak when all this started for you? Love Phillipa
Hi Phillipa...well I send a e-mail directly to you this week...maybe you don't recieve it...anyway that's a long story...I prefer to talk about it in privacy... ;-) Hope you understand ;-)
Posted by Phillipa on February 13, 2009, at 1:03:18
In reply to Re: Marplan - Maybe to scared to go back! » Phillipa, posted by Vincent_QC on February 12, 2009, at 23:31:20
Vincent just sent a babblemail to you. Understand completely. Love Phillipa
This is the end of the thread.
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