![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 42 to 66 of 66. Go back in thread:
Posted by yxibow on November 9, 2008, at 3:39:23
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by SLS on November 6, 2008, at 19:31:37
> I guess I should have used the term "Miracle Drug Treatment". I certainly am experiencing a miracle of modern psychopharmacology. However, I must take 4 drugs for my miracle to happen.
>
> Where would we be were we to be born 300 years ago? For me, nearly all of modern medicine is a miracle when considered in this context. I am very appreciative of man's modern medical inventions. Penicillin is a miracle drug, despite an increasingly treatment resistant population of microbes.
>
> It is a matter of attitude. No scientist owes the rest of us anything. Why do so many of us place blame on scientists when they don't accomplish what we want them to? Anyone can find fault with the system. However, I almost never see on this forum a recognition of what is right about the system. I am very much in favor of improving the system. However, disparagement alone is not terribly constructive in my opinion.
>
> Any treatment that brings me to remission is a miracle treatment for me.
>
> My miracle drugs:
>
> Parnate 80mg
> nortriptyline 150mg
> Lamictal 200mg
> Abilify 20mg
>
>
> - Scott
I appreciate your semantics of what you think is a "miracle drug treatment".For me, I guess I know in my mind that there is no perfect world and there is no magic bullet for anything.
I agree with you on antibiotics, and that was my example of one of the few agents that we can say probably is a cure and not a palliative, should they work.
I wasn't trying to put anyone's hopes down -- if I was misunderstood in this thread I apologize. I have a hard time having the hope to hope. So maybe I was projecting.
I was just trying to define the definition between a cure and and a palliative. A cure is something that happens spontaneously, or e.g. your cancer remits and you never have it again.
A palliative, which are what lots of agents are, are things that allow us to have as normal a life as possible against all odds and if I sounded maudlin that they wouldn't last -- well I am an experience that not all things last in quite the same way as you think they should and what I thought was a "cure" was in fact palliatives.Oxford Dictionary:
palliative
A. adj.
1. a. That relieves the symptoms of a disease or condition without dealing with the underlying cause.
B. n.
1. a. A treatment that gives temporary or symptomatic relief; something that serves to alleviate or mitigate pain, disease, suffering, etc.
Here is where I underline "symptomatic relief". That's the important part. To me, and perhaps only me. Your symptoms are at bay.
But lest this not please give some people less hope than they may already have. There are a lot of agents out there, sometimes the new ones aren't always the best, sometimes they are.
I hope you find in your mind a "miracle drug", even if I disagree with the word in psychiatry -- god only knows I wish I could have a miracle happen spontaneously, and that is my definition of a miracle, not someones else.I hope this clarifies that I have a hard time grasping on to the word miracle, but if it is something that people consider what has allowed them to live a productive life in the Here and Now, call it what ever you want.
-- best wishesJay
Posted by SLS on November 9, 2008, at 10:17:28
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'? » SLS, posted by yxibow on November 9, 2008, at 3:39:23
"What is your definition of a Miracle Drug?"
Midnight Blue portrayed my definition quite succinctly: "One that works."
We all have our individual requirements of a treatment before we deem it a miracle. I can certainly understand your reluctance to call any current treatment for mental illness a miracle.
One thing that I have learned in this thread is that there are some pretty high standards to be placed on a drug before it can be called a miracle. Doubtless, my spiritual nature tends to have me look at nearly everything in Creation as being a miracle. Lots and lots of little things.
For over 25 years, I have been looking for a treatment that would bring me into remission; thereby ending the pain, misery, and lack of functionality. My miracle has occurred, and it comes in the form of 4 brown vials. I thank God every day for this miracle. My life stopped at age 17. I am now 48. How could I view my current successful response to treatment as anything short of a miracle? Side effects and special diets are minor nuisances to me.
- Scott
Posted by JadeKelly on November 9, 2008, at 11:54:38
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by SLS on November 6, 2008, at 19:31:37
Scott, just curious as I am on parnate (may have to switch to other MAOI, hope not) How long have you been on this drug regimen? Did it take a while to tweak individual doses before you got the response you have now? Why did you switch to Parnate from Nardil? In your opinion, if I have to switch from Parnate, whats the closest MAOI to it? Hope to hear from you, congrats on finding "your miracle". 25 years is a long time.
Regards~Jade
Posted by 49er on November 9, 2008, at 12:41:59
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by Justherself54 on November 8, 2008, at 12:51:50
> I now believe there is no miracle drug for me. Just ones that poop out and/or don't work when revisited. I feel like the walking wounded.
I am so sorry to hear that. I hope you find a solution that works for you.
I felt that way the last few years of meds before I started slowly tapering off of them. In spite of tapering very slowly, I have hit a rough patch. But seeing what is possible with good windows when I feel like a normal high functioning human being with real emotions that don't incapacitate me, encourages me.
Anyway, I wish you all the luck in the world.
49er
Posted by 49er on November 9, 2008, at 12:49:57
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'? » 49er, posted by linkadge on November 8, 2008, at 15:23:36
>
<<My mother thought doxapin was a miracle drug. Her psychiatrist recently told her that her newly diagnosed type II diabeties was probably related to use of doxapin. Doxapin was also giving her severe hypertension for a long time before anybody diagnosed it. The funny thing is that she won't believe it. She has put doxapin on this pedastal and will not believe anything negative about it. But you know, some people are just like that. I think my mother needs a little more grey matter in certain cortial regions. >>Hi Linkage,
I am so sorry to hear this. I know from personal experience it is very frustrating when people refuse to believe that drugs have nasty side effects.
As hard as this must be for you, I am very grateful to you for sharing this. I am going through a rough patch with tapering my meds and at times, have wondered whether I can succeed even though I know I have to due to the nasty side effects of the meds. Hearing this news about Doxepin although it shook me up initially since I had no idea, this was a possible side effect, reminds me that I am doing the right thing.
I am impressed that a psychiatrist made the connection as many times, they deny that drugs have side effects even though I just came from a site that lists blood sugar irregularities as a side effect of Doxepin.
49er
Posted by 49er on November 9, 2008, at 13:09:01
In reply to Re: Blinders On » linkadge, posted by JadeKelly on November 8, 2008, at 18:23:38
Hi Jade,
<<Scary behavior while one is on an A/D is not always the meds fault. Could it not be true that the very problem that caused this person to seek meds also caused the behavior? Yes, it could.>>Agreed. But too often the role of ADs in crimes is denied even though the common reaction from people who know the person who committed the criminal behavior is one of absolute astonishment.
When I say that, I don't mean people who are in denial but who are truly shocked that this person committed a crime.
<<If a person who has led a relatively problem free existance for 40 years, suddenly faces, lets say, 10 tragedies/losses in a fairly short time, suddenly feels numb, can't work, can't get out of bed, can't socialize, can't eat, can't cry, doesn't really feel much, and this lasts for 2-3 years, do you really think that this person is going to hop up one day in remission? When all efforts at talking and "clean Living" haven't changed a da*n thing? I wonder what damage has already been done to this person's brain chemistry, spirit, and body? Don't you? >>
No argument with anything you have said. As long as the person is fully aware of the risks of taking antidepressants and there is periodic evaluation of whether the he/she should continue the meds, I have no problems with that. But many times, that isn't done.
>
<<Lets just leave that person in bed and wait for a drug that ABSOLUTELY has no long term adverse effects. Lets wait for a drug that works for THE REST OF THIS PERSONS LIFE, when said med may only be needed for say, 1 year to restore this persons chemistry. >>Again, I have no argument with what you said. But unfortunately, people are being put on drugs for life instead of one year and without an evaluation as to whether the med continues to be needed.
<<Hel*, Lets not even have a look at what meds have worked on similar cases because, well, that med might show signs of toxicity when this formally fully functioning person turns 99.>>
As I mentioned in my response to SLS, I started experiencing toxic when I hit the 5 year mark. Many people I know have reported experiencing symptoms earlier than that.
Robert Hedaya, a psychiatrist who wrote "Antidepressant Survival Program" says that up to 80% of people on psych meds suffer severe side effects. He is definitely not anti-meds but says they create imbalances in several systems.
<< Might, maybe, could. I could be run over by a truck tomorrow. I'm betting this person doesn't just "want to", but DOES believe that NO LIFE is far more dangerous than a lot of A/D's on the market. In fact, I'm CERTAIN of it.>>
>
It is about odds. I think they are greater in incurring an AD side effect than being run over by a truck. Remember, only 1 to 10% of all adverse effects are ever reported to the FDA so the odds of incurring a side effect might be even greater than what the drug books would lead you to believe.49er
Posted by 49er on November 9, 2008, at 13:35:45
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by SLS on November 8, 2008, at 18:28:37
Hi Scott,
<<I'm sorry to hear that. I know people who have not been adequately treated too. Would you say such an experience represents the majority or the minority?>>
Thanks.
The question I was responding to in your post was, "Will the drug work down the road and you had given an enthusiastic yes.
What I was trying to say was that all drugs poop out eventually. Laurie Yorke, the RN, who runs Paxil Progress Boards says that you can buy time by raising the dose or changing the drug. But eventually, you're going to have a hard time getting the drug to work and will need to add more drugs which of course, results in a greater chance of side effects.
As far as being adequately treated, it depends on what the definition is. Usually, the doctor's definition is different from the patient's. So I really can't answer your question.
<<Don't spare me the details if you have the energy to share them. I would really like to know.>>
Thanks, I started to but I can't focus long enough to be coherent. But fun included suicidal ideation from Prozac, a hearing loss from Remeron and a worsening of my learning disability symptoms, including memory loss. I also have tinnitus.
These meds made me so numb and apathetic that my condo is infested with roaches. Fortunately, I will be able to afford to fix the problem and I am grateful for that.
<<Many people experience a suicidal reaction to certain antidepressants, but usually not all of them. Some people become suicidal because the drug makes them feel worse. Others become suicidal because the drug makes them feel better.>>
Mine was definitely a suicidal reaction. I stupidly talked my current psychiatrist into prescribing it again 5 years ago. He really didn't want to.
The 2nd time, it didn't fortunately cause suicidal ideation but caused severe agiatation.
By the way, I don't have BP and my current psychiatrist agrees with that.
<<It is too bad that the Internet produces so many horror stories without demonstrating the success rate that represents the majority. Happy people have nothing to complain about, I guess.>>
Hmm, I saw a success rate of 50% on the NIMH website for 50% of the symptoms. I haven't been able to find the link but I am not making this up:) That will teach me to save stuff like that.
The star D study said 33% and according to a statistician I know, that is the right interpretation.
I have seen even lower estimates of success rate but to be fair, I will stick to those figures.
49er
Posted by SLS on November 9, 2008, at 14:21:09
In reply to Re: 'Miracle Drug' Questions for Scott » SLS, posted by JadeKelly on November 9, 2008, at 11:54:38
Hi Jade.
You always ask great questions. I only wish that my answers could be great as well. The practice of psychopharmacology can make idiots out of the most intelligent of people. We just don't know enough.
> Scott, just curious as I am on parnate (may have to switch to other MAOI, hope not)
Did you see my post to you regarding your hypertensive reaction to Parnate? It might be a startup transient effect that will resolve fairly quickly. I believe in the dosage range used by doctors who use MAOIs routinely to be 40-80mg. I really hope you can establish a Parnate treatment without side effects.
> How long have you been on this drug regimen?
I have experienced a significant response to my regime for over two years with Nardil as the MAOI. Having switched from Nardil to Parnate is producing a more satisfactory and stable improvement. I had plateaued on Nardil.
> Did it take a while to tweak individual doses before you got the response you have now?
Yes. I have demonstrated the need for each drug by tapering off of it, relapsing, and re-titrating back up. In this way, I found that I do better at 20mg of Abilify than I had at 10mg.
Take note of the drugs that helped you, even if only temporarily or producing but a partial improvement. I chose drugs to combine based on such a list.
> In your opinion, if I have to switch from Parnate, whats the closest MAOI to it?
The only two MAOIs that are connected so closely are Nardil and Marplan. Both are hydrazine derivatives. Marplan is often milder than Nardil regarding side effects and taxing the liver.
EMSAM is a propargyl derivative. In some ways, it is more like Parnate than Nardil. It produces amphetamine-like metabolites that are energizing. EMSAM can also help with social anxiety along with depression.
Thanks for the well-wishes. For those people who followed my story since I began posting in 1999, they would describe witnessing an intense and unrelenting depression in me. I think many of them would be surprised that I could get so well after such an odyssey. I was ALL BUT unresponsive to everything. I always looked at my reactions to medication as clues to what might eventually work for me - whether those reactions be good or bad.
I don't have the energy to tell the complete story as to how I came to take the drugs that are currently working. I wish I did, just to be able to give you more structure to work with.
Which drugs have you had any kind of positive response to? Which drugs made your core depression worse - not including side effects?
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on November 9, 2008, at 14:23:57
In reply to Re: Blinders On » linkadge, posted by JadeKelly on November 8, 2008, at 18:23:38
>If a person who has led a relatively problem >free existance for 40 years, suddenly faces, >lets say, 10 tragedies/losses in a fairly short >time, suddenly feels numb, can't work, can't get >out of bed, can't socialize, can't eat, can't >cry, doesn't really feel much, and this lasts >for 2-3 years, do you really think that this >person is going to hop up one day in remission?
Yes, most mid life crisis usually pass.
Linkadge
Posted by JadeKelly on November 9, 2008, at 15:22:15
In reply to Re: Blinders On, posted by linkadge on November 9, 2008, at 14:23:57
> >If a person who has led a relatively problem >free existance for 40 years, suddenly faces, >lets say, 10 tragedies/losses in a fairly short >time, suddenly feels numb, can't work, can't get >out of bed, can't socialize, can't eat, can't >cry, doesn't really feel much, and this lasts >for 2-3 years, do you really think that this >person is going to hop up one day in remission?
>
> Yes, most mid life crisis usually pass.
> Linkadge
>Oh, yes, I'm sure they do.
That was an unusally insensitive remark that doesnt rate any further comment.
Jade
Posted by bulldog2 on November 9, 2008, at 15:32:52
In reply to Re: Blinders On, posted by linkadge on November 9, 2008, at 14:23:57
> >If a person who has led a relatively problem >free existance for 40 years, suddenly faces, >lets say, 10 tragedies/losses in a fairly short >time, suddenly feels numb, can't work, can't get >out of bed, can't socialize, can't eat, can't >cry, doesn't really feel much, and this lasts >for 2-3 years, do you really think that this >person is going to hop up one day in remission?
>
> Yes, most mid life crisis usually pass.
>
> Linkadge
>The man's in remission and moving on with his life. So it's better to be catatonic and depressed and hope some day you'll snap out of it. Sounds like a game plan I wouldn't follow.
Posted by JadeKelly on November 9, 2008, at 15:53:16
In reply to Re: Blinders On, posted by bulldog2 on November 9, 2008, at 15:32:52
> > >If a person who has led a relatively problem >free existance for 40 years, suddenly faces, >lets say, 10 tragedies/losses in a fairly short >time, suddenly feels numb, can't work, can't get >out of bed, can't socialize, can't eat, can't >cry, doesn't really feel much, and this lasts >for 2-3 years, do you really think that this >person is going to hop up one day in remission?
> >
> > Yes, most mid life crisis usually pass.
> >
> > Linkadge
> >
>
> The man's in remission and moving on with his life. So it's better to be catatonic and depressed and hope some day you'll snap out of it. Sounds like a game plan I wouldn't follow.Well good for him that he's in remission, that doesn't give him the right to go around dogging (no pun intended) everyone else with no regard, or knowledge in most cases, of someone elses illness, pain or its cause.
Glad HIS midlife crisis is over, because after all, thats what were ALL here for, right?
Thanks for the support Bulldog, hope you're doing well.
~Jade
Posted by Justherself54 on November 9, 2008, at 16:07:03
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'? » Justherself54, posted by 49er on November 9, 2008, at 12:41:59
Thanks 49er for your kind words.
Posted by JadeKelly on November 9, 2008, at 16:40:23
In reply to Re: 'Miracle Drug' Questions for Scott » JadeKelly, posted by SLS on November 9, 2008, at 14:21:09
Hi Scott, had to leave the post for a bit lest I say something that would get me banned! So thanks for answering my post. Yes, I did get your response to hypertensive problem, so frustrating as worked SO WELL!! Do you think I should give it another try? Frankly, I'm afraid to. So in answer to your question: Ritalin and klonopin were good combo for me, Klonopin for nerve pain in my neck. Ritalin stopped working at 25mg day, and decided this treatment was band-aid.
SSRI's are REALLY bad for me, a few days and I'm done. Anxiety, paranoia, etc. Other A/D's the same, sorry I don't remember which. Wellbutrin worked really well for me until I started feeling irritable on it. I liked the energy it gave me. Anything that makes me feel energentic (my old self) instead of this lethargic hel* is good for me. However, I don't want any stims/amph. I want a drug(s) that replaces whatever I'm chemically missing. Emsam and Parnate both did that for me, within 5-7 days each. So, I'm convinced I need an MAOI, and would prefer one that is not sedating (my wish list). Will you get back to me with what this picture looks like?
Oh, I like a drink or two now and then, it actually eases my depression, and I feel relaxed. Never get intoxicated. Just thought might be clue. I've suspected Dopamine is what I need, but no idea how to get it where I need it. Maoi's did it.
Thanks for any insight!
~Jade
Posted by JadeKelly on November 9, 2008, at 17:13:31
In reply to Re: Blinders On » JadeKelly, posted by 49er on November 9, 2008, at 13:09:01
Hi 49er, thank you for making your points with out being condescending or rude. Sounds like we have some differences in opinion, some not.
I think people will more likely pay attention to the substance of what you're saying, as they're not so buzy defending themselves, their illnesses, and their views.
~Jade
Posted by bulldog2 on November 9, 2008, at 18:22:57
In reply to Re: Blinders On » bulldog2, posted by JadeKelly on November 9, 2008, at 15:53:16
> > > >If a person who has led a relatively problem >free existance for 40 years, suddenly faces, >lets say, 10 tragedies/losses in a fairly short >time, suddenly feels numb, can't work, can't get >out of bed, can't socialize, can't eat, can't >cry, doesn't really feel much, and this lasts >for 2-3 years, do you really think that this >person is going to hop up one day in remission?
> > >
> > > Yes, most mid life crisis usually pass.
> > >
> > > Linkadge
> > >
> >
> > The man's in remission and moving on with his life. So it's better to be catatonic and depressed and hope some day you'll snap out of it. Sounds like a game plan I wouldn't follow.
>
> Well good for him that he's in remission, that doesn't give him the right to go around dogging (no pun intended) everyone else with no regard, or knowledge in most cases, of someone elses illness, pain or its cause.
>
> Glad HIS midlife crisis is over, because after all, thats what were ALL here for, right?
>
> Thanks for the support Bulldog, hope you're doing well.
>
> ~Jade
>
>I was talking about Scott being in remission. I don't believe he dogs anyone but just tries to be helpful.
Posted by Dinah on November 9, 2008, at 18:49:53
In reply to What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by SLS on November 6, 2008, at 17:34:50
Maybe my sights are a bit low for Miracle.
But Provigil seems a miracle to me. It keeps me awake without my really feeling anything else. If you add my prn Risperdal and an ability to monitor my mood states, I seem to be able to keep myself at relative stability. It may be small as miracles go, since I can't use Risperdal long term because of my diabetes, and since I seem to have gotten dependent on Provigil.
But after so many years of Luvox and mood stabilizers and general instability, it feels like a miracle to me to go to the pdoc and tell him everything's ok, I just need a renewal.
Well, I guess maybe it bothers me a bit that Risperdal and Provigil taken at the same time seems to work wonders for anxiety or suicidal ideation or depressive mood swings or meltdowns. But my pdoc said if it works go for it. That it was fine to do if it reset my brain to where it needed to be.
A small miracle maybe. But I'm ok with small miracles.
Posted by Phillipa on November 9, 2008, at 19:08:19
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by Dinah on November 9, 2008, at 18:49:53
Well said but think my brain is saying no more. So weaning off the years of benzos and sticking with tiny dose of luvox as life situations money for one and aging seem to be more of a problem for me. Love Phillipa
Posted by JadeKelly on November 9, 2008, at 19:27:51
In reply to Re: Blinders On, posted by bulldog2 on November 9, 2008, at 18:22:57
Oh good, I agree totally!
Thanx~jade
Posted by yxibow on November 10, 2008, at 0:29:47
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by Phillipa on November 9, 2008, at 19:08:19
> Well said but think my brain is saying no more. So weaning off the years of benzos and sticking with tiny dose of luvox as life situations money for one and aging seem to be more of a problem for me. Love Phillipa
The process of aging that I sense from you is depression, but I could be wrong. It is natural to feel these ways as life goes on, but you know, take what you are able to do with life and people, money problems or not, are living longer and active lives. Activity is really important to stimulate the mind and body. And I know it is hard to find the right and enjoyable things to do. A 114 year old woman cast her ballot for the first time since Kennedy. The journey is not over and women statistically live longer.-- to health
Jay
Posted by henryo on November 10, 2008, at 1:05:04
In reply to What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by SLS on November 6, 2008, at 17:34:50
Deplin is a 'Miracle Drug'
Posted by Deputy Dinah on November 10, 2008, at 22:52:28
In reply to Re: Blinders On, posted by linkadge on November 9, 2008, at 14:23:57
> Yes, most mid life crisis usually pass.
>
> LinkadgePlease be sensitive to the feelings of others, and not jump to conclusions about their experiences, or post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by psyclist on November 11, 2008, at 8:38:18
In reply to What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by SLS on November 6, 2008, at 17:34:50
> Everyone has their own concept of what a miracle drug might be when treating mental illness.
>
> What's yours?
>
> What are your requirements for a drug to be deemed a miracle drug?
>
>
> - ScottTo find the miracle drug you first have to find what is wrong with you. Speaking for myself I am unable to distinguish root cause from undesirable side effect. Are the symptoms that bug me caused by my brain itself or by the drugs and the interaction of the drugs that have been prescribed for me? Then again a quest for the miracle drug demands access to a wide variety of medication coupled with deep pockets to pay for it. Here in the UK under the NHS (National Health Service) I doubt whether this access exists. I suppose a miracle drug is one which silences all your symptoms regardless of diagnosis and other medication. Then again how do you know that the miracle maker is acting alone? It might be a combined effort. Could it be that going backwards is just as effective as going forwards? By this I mean what about stripping all the medication away and confronting ab initio the root cause of the disease. I think the path to a cure is so littered with ineffectual drugs which set up symptoms and side-effects of their own that very often the original complaint is drowned out. In conclusion there is no miracle drug only a drug that under certain circumstances works well. Once you've prescribed a host of medications the root disease is lost sight of. Psychiatrists fiddle and in so doing lose the path back to the original disease.
Posted by theo on November 11, 2008, at 19:38:54
In reply to What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by SLS on November 6, 2008, at 17:34:50
To give me clarity and make me feel normal.
> Everyone has their own concept of what a miracle drug might be when treating mental illness.
>
> What's yours?
>
> What are your requirements for a drug to be deemed a miracle drug?
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by kenny7 on November 12, 2008, at 22:58:55
In reply to Re: What is your definition of a 'Miracle Drug'?, posted by ricker on November 6, 2008, at 20:17:15
NARDIL!...with a little help
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.