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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 4 to 28 of 28. Go back in thread:
Posted by Sigismund on January 23, 2008, at 4:51:41
In reply to New study on ECT, posted by Netch on January 22, 2008, at 5:57:33
>there is no evidence that ECT increases intelligence, as Sackeim has previously claimed
Posted by stargazer2 on January 23, 2008, at 8:59:03
In reply to Oh Wow, posted by Sigismund on January 23, 2008, at 4:51:41
Can you imagine suggesting that as a result of ECT you become more intelligent. If this was true everyone would line up to get it and he would be first in line.
What a way to justify that what you were doing was
a successful procedure, but without any studies to validate any change in IQ... so how did he suggest that intelligence was enhanced without that data? Was his word so highly regarded without statistical proof? Did he have a God complex too?I wonder what the percentage of physicians that have ECT is? I only saw one have it and he was a drug abuser so he had it only to make sure he didn't lose his license, no other reason that I could fathom. I only saw him once, so I don't think he followed through with the protocol, I'm sure once his memory went he was scared $hitle$$.
I would be.
Posted by bleauberry on January 23, 2008, at 17:16:06
In reply to Not surprised..., posted by stargazer2 on January 22, 2008, at 22:44:08
> Once again, the doctors who are supposed to "Inflict no Harm" have done it again in the name of big money. and ECT is really BIG money especially for the ECT doc.Yeah, no kidding. I had good insurance at the time and they covered most of it. I did get a detailed bill for all the itemized charges and how much the insurance company paid. The bottom line for 12 treatments...$22,000.
>
> I have always said to my pdoc, "no matter how depressed I get I will never have ECT" and that was because I did not trust what I had heard about memory and results.
>I'e already commented on my nightmares of vanished memory. Just wanted to emphasize ECT has zero effectiveness after the treatments are over. According to my diary I was improving during treatments. An author wants to quote me saying how ECT made prozac work better. At the end I had 2 days of a new born life free of depression. I remember one of those days. The other is just in my diary. Two days later I was carried off to the emergency room in an ambulance for talking about suicide. My depression was worse than before ECT.
Posted by Zyprexa on January 23, 2008, at 22:23:40
In reply to New study on ECT, posted by Netch on January 22, 2008, at 5:57:33
10 years and I still don't remember. Wish I never had them.
Posted by linkadge on January 23, 2008, at 22:50:40
In reply to I can atest to that!, posted by Zyprexa on January 23, 2008, at 22:23:40
Wow. Like I said before, I have a feeling that ECT will not be around within 10 or so years.
They cannot deny such side effects for too much longer.
Bottom line when it comes to this kind of thing is just believe patient experience. Just cause some pamphlet says it doesn't cause memory loss.
Its all about keeping people feeling sane.
Is the way the information comes out that suprises me. They always have a way to slip this kind of information out, so that in the blink of an eye they pretend like they knew it all along.
They just rewrite the history books.Linkadge
Posted by stargazer2 on January 24, 2008, at 8:18:03
In reply to Re: I can atest to that!, posted by linkadge on January 23, 2008, at 22:50:40
My concern is when will current ECT practitioners tell patients the truth about the memory effects now that what's his name has spoken?
It is a highly lucrative procedure and Medicare patients do not even have a limit to the number of these procedures they can have, unlike many private insurors, that usually limit ECT to 10-12 treatments.
Why is this? That is federal money being spent without good outcomes on elderly patients who if they were in their right minds and understood the side effects would never consent to it. oftentimes the family agrees to it because they are made to feel guilty if they don't do something.
It's unfair, taking advantage of society's most vulnerable, the elderly and the mentally ill, who are incapable of making decisions of this magnitude, when in the throes of a condition that affects decision making capabilities.
And when patients are told it is their last option, what are they to do, other than give up?
I think that has just become a routine comment for doctors that are limited in their capabilities to treat depression. There are other options, but most pdocs do not follow through with referrals to specialists who may take the treatment much further with medication options and combinations.
At least that's what I did when my pdoc suggested ECT. Since I had seen it first hand, I didn't feel that it was an acceptable option for me. I was never convinced that the outcomes were any better than medication or that it worked for any length of time, not withstanding the memory issues which were always minimized by the doctors.
Let the truth be told and let those who are currenty undergoing the procedure, make their decision, based on currrent knowledge, not past inaccuracies.
Stargazer
Posted by linkadge on January 24, 2008, at 10:48:13
In reply to Re: I can atest to that!, posted by stargazer2 on January 24, 2008, at 8:18:03
I'm willing to bet that its *not* cost efficiant either. 80% of people who have it are sick again within a year, not to mention the costs due to reduced employment capacity, and or disability.
If the government doesn't think memory loss is an eithical enough reason to pull it, then perhaps a detailed study of the bottom $ would shead some light on the issue.
What bothers me is that its all "the Empiror's new cloths". Everbody just follows orders, and goes along with what "they" say. Good intellegent psychiatrists don't speak their mind for fear of sounding out of place.
Linkadge
Posted by AdamCanada on January 29, 2008, at 0:22:34
In reply to Not surprised..., posted by stargazer2 on January 22, 2008, at 22:44:08
Not to mention my intelligence. I used to be a genius. I would hold the mosy stimulating intellectual discussions and be capable of brilliant well thought out debate...
and now I can barely hold conversations together.
every single day when I wake up... I DO NOT REMEMBER MOST of what on earth happened the day before.
I wake up anew..... Who did I talk to yesterday? What did I do? What did I have planned?
I HAVE TO write EVERY FREAKING THING DOWN and I have da-- notes all over the place.
Those doctors and their disgusting lives. Not only do I have severe treatment resistant depression and anxiety but since that ECT when I was 19... (now 24) I have so much memory loss every day and feel like a darn idiot on far too many occassions.
I used to be so intellectual and now at times I feel like I am half dead.
If I could sue those disgusting doctors who push this garbage upon their patients I would but here I am barely scraping by. After all the expenses of living and medications that aren't covered by my basic health government card... and unable to work for various reasons...
I am just sick of it. if it wasn't for some dexedrine that I took shortly before hand I dont even think I would be writting this!
After 20+ meds I sometimes feel there may be no hope but Trivistal is coming in the mail soon enough and i'll see if it helps.
ECT is poison. Shocking your brain is not normal! Don't ever let any doctor talk you into this garbage. Only now we are finding out the real truth behind this disgusting so called ''medical'' practice.
Posted by AdamCanada on January 29, 2008, at 0:23:57
In reply to ECT DESTROYED ME still to this day, MY story, posted by AdamCanada on January 29, 2008, at 0:22:34
I can't even think straight to write the proper words. How great is that?
Posted by SLS on January 31, 2008, at 5:39:25
In reply to Those doctors and their Lies* is what I meant., posted by AdamCanada on January 29, 2008, at 0:23:57
> I can't even think straight to write the proper words. How great is that?
Not very.
I am profoundly sorry for your loss. I believe you.
The thing about ECT is that for some people, it is the only thing that works - although it is probably not statistically that successful on people who are medication-treatment-resistant.
Lots of people suffer no memory or cognitive impairment with ECT. I guess I was one of the "lucky" ones. I experienced no retrograde or anterograde amnesia.
So, how do you choose only those patients who will not experience any untoward cognitive changes?
I don't know.
What kind of ECT did you have?
Unilateral: Left or Right
Bilateral
Bitemporal
High or Low dose?Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by Bob on January 31, 2008, at 12:58:15
In reply to Re: Those doctors and their Lies* is what I meant. » AdamCanada, posted by SLS on January 31, 2008, at 5:39:25
> > I can't even think straight to write the proper words. How great is that?
>
> Not very.
>
> I am profoundly sorry for your loss. I believe you.
>
> The thing about ECT is that for some people, it is the only thing that works - although it is probably not statistically that successful on people who are medication-treatment-resistant.
>
> Lots of people suffer no memory or cognitive impairment with ECT. I guess I was one of the "lucky" ones. I experienced no retrograde or anterograde amnesia.
>
> So, how do you choose only those patients who will not experience any untoward cognitive changes?
>
> I don't know.
>
> What kind of ECT did you have?
>
> Unilateral: Left or Right
> Bilateral
> Bitemporal
> High or Low dose?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
Scott:If you don't mind me asking, how many treatments did you have and of what type? Do you receive maintenance treatments or did you just stop and sustain your benefits?
Posted by SLS on January 31, 2008, at 16:47:57
In reply to Re: Those doctors and their Lies* is what I meant. » SLS, posted by Bob on January 31, 2008, at 12:58:15
Hi Bob.
> Scott:
>
> If you don't mind me asking, how many treatments did you have and of what type? Do you receive maintenance treatments or did you just stop and sustain your benefits?ECT was not successful in my case. I was given 6 unilateral left followed by 9 bilateral. The bilateral treatments screwed me up for over a month. I felt "foggy" and not like myself. My memory was affected at first. Roads that I had traveled most of my life became unfamiliar to me after ECT. I can't say how long these cognitive side effects lasted. Many people undergoing ECT will sustain some measurable changes as shown in psychometric testing, even if the subjective experiences of someone be that nothing has changed.
I am very conflicted over the use of ECT. There are too many accounts of horrific effects on memory caused by this treatment. They can't all be discounted. Even though I do not experience any persistent cognitive impairment other than that produced by depression, the acute effects of the bilateral treatments gave me evidence that there are indeed cognitive and memory impairments produced by ECT.
Still...
There are success stories. I'm sure many of these people thank God for their good fortune to have ECT available to them.
- Scott
Posted by Bob on January 31, 2008, at 17:04:13
In reply to Re: Those doctors and their Lies* is what I meant. » Bob, posted by SLS on January 31, 2008, at 16:47:57
> Hi Bob.
>
> > Scott:
> >
> > If you don't mind me asking, how many treatments did you have and of what type? Do you receive maintenance treatments or did you just stop and sustain your benefits?
>
> ECT was not successful in my case. I was given 6 unilateral left followed by 9 bilateral. The bilateral treatments screwed me up for over a month. I felt "foggy" and not like myself. My memory was affected at first. Roads that I had traveled most of my life became unfamiliar to me after ECT. I can't say how long these cognitive side effects lasted. Many people undergoing ECT will sustain some measurable changes as shown in psychometric testing, even if the subjective experiences of someone be that nothing has changed.
>
> I am very conflicted over the use of ECT. There are too many accounts of horrific effects on memory caused by this treatment. They can't all be discounted. Even though I do not experience any persistent cognitive impairment other than that produced by depression, the acute effects of the bilateral treatments gave me evidence that there are indeed cognitive and memory impairments produced by ECT.
>
> Still...
>
> There are success stories. I'm sure many of these people thank God for their good fortune to have ECT available to them.
>
>
> - Scott
Yeah, ECT was not a miracle cure for me either. Looking back there were some extreme problems, much the same as you describe, and other things too. I did become more active, but I really, really did not feel normal. Eventually the treatments had to be stopped and I sank quickly into an unprecedentedly severe depression.Still, like you say, there are people out there for whom it is a saving grace.
- Bob
Posted by linkadge on February 1, 2008, at 15:09:26
In reply to Re: Those doctors and their Lies* is what I meant. » SLS, posted by Bob on January 31, 2008, at 12:58:15
Memory loss can be very difficult to measure.
Ie, if you don't remember something, you may not remember ever remembering it.I have heard about people who initially report no memory loss only to find that they have lost finer skills and abilities in their job, and are ultimately unable to return to such positions. Its not always the stuff that comes glaring at you.
The other thing too is that the brain can decieve itself. For instance, studies show, that the 'declaritive' brain doesn't always like to admit inconsistancies and errors in its processing. For instance, you might wipe out 'billions' of right brain intuitive implicit memory type neurons, and the left brain would deny any such devistation.
I know (for instance) that I have lost piano playing ability (after exposure to heavy use of psychoactive drugs for a period). The only reason I know this is by listening to recordings of my playing from 5-10 years back. I still practice as much and am only 24, so I don't think its an over-the-hill type thing.
Anyhow, the point is that I didn't even see the deterioration. Somtimes its the loss of the finer things.
Just because a treatment 'works' for some people doesn't mean they still don't diserve to have accurate data on its side effect profile. Many times people simply believe doctors: "oh it doesn't cause memory loss, then yes, this must be a result of my depression".
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on February 1, 2008, at 15:19:28
In reply to Re: Those doctors and their Lies* is what I meant. » Bob, posted by SLS on January 31, 2008, at 16:47:57
>Still...
>There are success stories. I'm sure many of >these people thank God for their good fortune to >have ECT available to them
Yes, but at what ultimate cost? Some of the largest recent studies show that the majority of people who responded to ECT completely relapse within a year. Just becuse sombody is pleased with short term effects doesn't mean that it was a good overall decision.
I feel that people who have ECT are sacrificing the 'war' in order to win a single 'battle'. Their brain is arguably in a worse condiditon. They're back to where they started with fewer resources. The picture for maintainance ECT becomes even more bleak, especially from the standpoint of brain structure.
If ECT doesn't fry your brain the first time, it eventually will. Many docotors claim (with imaging evidence) that maintainance ECT causes progressive brain tissue and volume loss, extensive glial and cellular pathologies.
One study of brain structure in TRD patients was able to clearly identify those who had had more ect as opposed to less or none.
Additional animal research suggests that it is infact the ECT which leads to these pathologies.
(If somebody wants to ban me for suggesting ECT will eventually fry your brain, go ahead. Its not me that needs to live with yourself)
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on February 1, 2008, at 15:22:17
In reply to Re: Those doctors and their Lies* is what I meant., posted by linkadge on February 1, 2008, at 15:19:28
Thats the problem with ECT is that its so unpredictable. I have a strong feeling that the so called miracle %70 sucess rate statistics are completely flawed.
**Think of it this way**
Its the same people that told you ECT caused no memory loss that are telling you it works %70-80 of the time.
Linkadge
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 3, 2008, at 1:31:08
In reply to Re: Those doctors and their Lies* is what I meant., posted by linkadge on February 1, 2008, at 15:19:28
> If ECT doesn't fry your brain the first time, it eventually will.
Please don't exaggerate.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person.
I encourage anyone who has questions about this or about posting policies in general, or is interested in alternative ways of expressing themselves, to see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Thanks,
Bob
PS: According to the new formula:
duration of previous block: 1 week
period of time since previous block: 3 weeks
severity: 2 (default)
block length = 1.92 rounded = 2 weeks
Posted by deniseuk190466 on February 5, 2008, at 15:26:52
In reply to Re: Those doctors and their Lies* is what I meant., posted by linkadge on February 1, 2008, at 15:19:28
Hi,
That really annoys me. To say that "ECT should be banned" is really selfish when it has and does offer some people a renewed chance of happiness. Would you want to deny them that, knowing what you know about depression?
I have read of quite a few stories where ECT seems to have literally saved some people lives. When I read those stories I want it myself.
I can understand the bitterness though, I would feel bitter too if It had been sold to me as something that was guaranteed to work and to work for a long time but no psychiatrist has ever tried to persuade me to have ECT, I wish they would as I am sick of hearing negative things about it.
I don't think ECT should be banned but I just wish that they had a way of predicting who would and who wouldn't respond but as always, if you are pretty resistant to the standard meds then there are no ways of predicting what will help.
Denise
Posted by Phoenix1 on February 5, 2008, at 18:02:41
In reply to To say it should be banned is selfish!, posted by deniseuk190466 on February 5, 2008, at 15:26:52
> Hi,
>
> That really annoys me. To say that "ECT should be banned" is really selfish when it has and does offer some people a renewed chance of happiness. Would you want to deny them that, knowing what you know about depression?
>
> I have read of quite a few stories where ECT seems to have literally saved some people lives. When I read those stories I want it myself.
>
> I can understand the bitterness though, I would feel bitter too if It had been sold to me as something that was guaranteed to work and to work for a long time but no psychiatrist has ever tried to persuade me to have ECT, I wish they would as I am sick of hearing negative things about it.
>
> I don't think ECT should be banned but I just wish that they had a way of predicting who would and who wouldn't respond but as always, if you are pretty resistant to the standard meds then there are no ways of predicting what will help.
>
>
>
> DeniseDenise, I agree with you. I think ECT has it's place for drug resistant, refractory depression. Perhaps some pdocs are too quick to recommend it, as it should really be an "end of the line" therapy in most cases. My pdoc threw it into conversation like "if the Nardil doesn't work we can talk about ECT", to which I said, not a chance because I certainly haven't tried everything out there. And I wouldn't even consider it until I felt that every other avenue had been exhausted. But it definitely shouldn't be banned. It may cause permanent damage in some patients, but so do many drugs, and no one would ban them. Look at lots of chemo drugs that cause permanent liver, kidney, nerve damage, etc. They are there because they save lives, just like ECT. It's a risk/benefit analysis. I would rather have minor cognition/memory problems than persistent suicidal depression, which is a life threatening condition, just as I would rather have nerve or kidney damage than die of some horrible cancer... But I would never consider ECT unless I had tried everything else, and my depression was life-threatening.
Phoenix1
Posted by deniseuk190466 on February 6, 2008, at 7:43:53
In reply to Re: To say it should be banned is selfish! » deniseuk190466, posted by Phoenix1 on February 5, 2008, at 18:02:41
Just wanted to say thanks for backing me up on that.
Denise
Posted by Phoenix1 on February 6, 2008, at 8:09:40
In reply to Thx Pheonix, posted by deniseuk190466 on February 6, 2008, at 7:43:53
> Just wanted to say thanks for backing me up on that.
>
> DeniseMy pleasure Denise. I just think it's short sighted to ban a treatment that can offer relief when nothing else has, for tx resistant patients.
Posted by Justherself54 on February 6, 2008, at 8:41:47
In reply to Re: Those doctors and their Lies* is what I meant., posted by linkadge on February 1, 2008, at 15:09:26
I had ECT..5 treatments..I didn't think it worked and my pdoc stopped it as I stopped sleeping but my daughter feels that's when I started to get better, so who knows ..do I have memory loss..yes I do..am I bitter..no, I was informed of the risks but at the time I was in such bad shape and had been on so many meds that pooped out on me..I didn't want to die but I knew if some intervention didn't happen quickly it was just a matter of time..
It's interesting to note that I can't remember a whole lot of things before ECT either and I do believe that was caused by the depth of depression I was in..and I don't mean standing at the edge of the black hole looking in..I was standing at the bottom of it..
My GP who hospitalized me and my pdoc who started ECT both had my best interests at heart at the time..and were extremely worried at the state I was in..
I've accepted my memory loss and so have my friends and family..and perhaps its the reason I can't seem to get back to my career..but maybe it did work enough to allow me the time for another go round with meds..
It is too bad pdocs don't know if it's going to work..but a great many drugs I have tried didn't work either.
In my case it was better to have tried and failed than where I was heading which was death..
Posted by stargazer2 on February 6, 2008, at 9:09:40
In reply to Re: Those doctors and their Lies* is what I meant., posted by Justherself54 on February 6, 2008, at 8:41:47
I saw so many outcomes with ECT, some good, although I wasn't always sure of this, some bad and some no response.
The biggest problem I had with the treatment was that rather than being truthful with the procedure's outcomes, patients were told it will work and they would get their memory back if they lost it. I wasneercomfortable with giving this information to a patient because it was not always true. Just like chemo is not always successful, I don't think cancer patients are told that it is.
I saw plenty of people not get better with ECT and the ones that did either didn't return for followup or their response was not obvious to me when they said they were better.
I might have given ECT a chance or might if my life was so down that the only other outcome was death, but I feel that some of the medication treatments that MD's shy away from can give you the same chance of recovery. Who knows,have they ever studied this completely?
The biggest problem with ECT is the lack of studies and I wonder if that is intentional. Now that reknowned expert (name escapes me) claims the memory loss is permanent, rather than temporary as he claimed for so many years. I feel this deception was part of the plan to treat as many people as possible without acknowledging the lack of response in some or the persistent memory issues in others.
I have to have the truth before I will submit to anything and my pdoc is always truthful with me. The ECT docs I felt were not, and it was more than just saying it ...it was giving them false hope when truthfulness is the only way to approach any procedure with such varied outcomes.
If it has worked for you and I believe it can pull you out of a deep depression, I'm not sure the long term effects are always successful.
One patient I saw have the procedure, was a dialysis patient, whose kidneys failed from lithium treatment for her depression. She had no other option than ECT. She must have had some response because she was faithful in returning to have maintenance ECT every month. In my opinion, she was still very depressed but being in that medical situation was a large part of her depession. So,everyone has to make their own call for it, some don't even have a choice.
Stargazer
Posted by Deputy 10derHeart on February 6, 2008, at 14:26:29
In reply to To say it should be banned is selfish!, posted by deniseuk190466 on February 5, 2008, at 15:26:52
> That really annoys me. To say that "ECT should be banned" is really selfish
and from: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20080124/msgs/810879.html
>I think to use statements like that to somebody who is having ECT is very insensitive.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. Please use the Notify the Administration button if you think there is a problem with the wording of someone's post.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be directed to Admin and should of course be civil. Dr. Bob has oversight over deputy decisions, and he may choose a different action.
-- 10derHeart, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 13, 2008, at 1:42:54
In reply to Re: blocked for 2 weeks » linkadge, posted by Dr. Bob on February 3, 2008, at 1:31:08
> Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20080204/msgs/812428.html
Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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