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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 11 to 35 of 35. Go back in thread:
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 20, 2007, at 16:06:20
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain, posted by rovers95 on February 20, 2007, at 15:04:52
Well, I really should've said "barbiturates" instead of "benzodiazepines". That is my mistake. Please find evidence that barbiturates have been shown ineffective in blocking NMDA-induced neurotoxicity. Yes, Na+ blockers are effective, but I don't like the idea of mixing and matching drugs like this. The reason I mention the benzodiazepines and barbiturates in this context is because they have been USED CLINICALLY with ketamine for years.
Benzodiazepines are also effective enough, IMHO, to be used by people using sane (read: not animal study) doses of ketamine. I'm not positive about this, but I don't think there's any evidence that this neurotoxicity even occurs in humans, though I've seen enough of the effects of dissociative abuse to suspect otherwise. Note that these people were using doses well in excess of what anyone should.
Most people would be well-advised to stay away from drugs like ketamine and MK-801. PCP is the most dangerous, but for different reasons. Memantine is much safer.
Posted by dbc on February 20, 2007, at 16:07:01
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain » dbc, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 20, 2007, at 14:54:23
> Recommending the use of DMT to anyone is irresponsible; the likelihood of lasting psychological trauma is much higher than with ketamine. The analogs on the gray market (such as 5-methoxy-DMT) do not have the same effect, although they can be quite potent.
I definetly would not reccomend someone who was inexperianced with the subject matter to try any psychedelic especially DMT. Its more potent natural forms are in even less of a grey legal area compared to the RCs. But i certainly dont reccomend anyone trip on ayahuasca.
Posted by dbc on February 20, 2007, at 16:11:54
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain, posted by FredPotter on February 20, 2007, at 14:39:55
> What's this DMT? I thought LSD still topped the psychotropic charts
Its been used in various forms by tribal cultures for religious reasons since we walked upright. While lsd is strong a trip on DMT usually involves leaving your body for 4+ hours and being completely unaware of your surroundings and experiancing other places/worlds/beings. Extremely potent and would be extremely scary for someone inexperianced with drugs of this nature.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine
Posted by halcyondaze on February 20, 2007, at 16:20:43
In reply to Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain, posted by FredPotter on February 19, 2007, at 22:12:59
I only used Special K recreationally a few times but it made me feel like I was going to die; indeed, that I was dying.
Nothing like some good old Ecstasy for depression, I say! [Note: I am just kidding. Ecstasy probably contributed to the worsening of my depression, actually.]
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 20, 2007, at 16:32:27
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain, posted by FredPotter on February 20, 2007, at 14:39:55
> Lar - The New Scientist article talks about a severe pain condition whose name I forget.
Is this the article?
http://www.ketamine.com/antidepressant-potential.html> Everything hurts apparently. And K works like magic.
Yes, RSD. Also known as complex regional pain syndrome. I've been diagnosed with that recently. They're injecting anaesthetic around my spinal canal Thursday. As I said, I'd go for the ketamine in a flash.
> I don't live in Oz and here in New Zealand "askance" doesn't begin to describe how my doc would look at me if I said, "Ketamine".
I hear ya. All they think of is drug-seeking.
> He's probably never heard of it anyway. What's this DMT? I thought LSD still topped the psychotropic charts
Dimethyl-tryptamine, if I recall correctly. There is a whole body of research into tryptamines and related molecules (a book called PIHKAL, for example). If you've got a background in organic chemistry, they're fairly easy to play around with. Everything you'd ever want to know is probably in Erowid:
http://www.erowid.org/http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dmt/dmt.shtml
Lar
Posted by FredPotter on February 20, 2007, at 18:33:02
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain » FredPotter, posted by Larry Hoover on February 20, 2007, at 16:32:27
Larry yes that's the article. Interesting I thought, although it appears you have to keep dosing with it, unlike NDEs which apparently change you for life (and death) Fred
Posted by linkadge on February 20, 2007, at 18:45:32
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain » FredPotter, posted by Larry Hoover on February 20, 2007, at 16:32:27
Interesting, I would often fall into what I called lithium holes. Although, it is probably a totally different mechanism, and I cannot compare that to what a K-hole feels like.
Linkadge
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 20, 2007, at 18:46:34
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain » Larry Hoover, posted by FredPotter on February 20, 2007, at 18:33:02
> Larry yes that's the article. Interesting I thought, although it appears you have to keep dosing with it, unlike NDEs which apparently change you for life (and death) Fred
The study described in that New Scientist article was different in one substantive way from the Australian work, and that done in Philadelphia. Instead of one single dose, patients were on a 24/7 i.v. drip, for five to seven days straight. Some were even comatose. Coming out of that, roughly one third had long-term remissions (greater than six months). About half went on to have a second treatment, and two subjects had a third. But, a significant number became pain free. About half, if I recall correctly.
A remarkable outcome, IMHO. There is nothing like it, in the literature.
I hold my NDE in reserve, for a later date. ;-)
Lar
Posted by linkadge on February 20, 2007, at 18:48:10
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain » FredPotter, posted by Larry Hoover on February 20, 2007, at 16:32:27
I suppose ketamine neurotoxicity is somewhat like zinc neurotoxicity?
Linkadge
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 21, 2007, at 5:12:59
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain, posted by halcyondaze on February 20, 2007, at 16:20:43
In doses of 2mg/kg or less, MDMA is perfectly safe to use once per month--and this is conservative. Of course, YMMV, but IMHO most worsening of depression due to MDMA use is due to the inability of the subject to integrate such a positive experience into the ego when ordinary life has a dearth of such "peak" experiences.
I onced asked a pharmacology professor of mine about neuroprotection for use of MDMA. He said, "Why are you worried?"
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 21, 2007, at 5:14:17
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain, posted by linkadge on February 20, 2007, at 18:48:10
For an explanation of this, check out the work of Olney, et. al. on NMDA antagonist neurotoxicity.
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 21, 2007, at 6:37:43
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain » linkadge, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 21, 2007, at 5:14:17
> For an explanation of this, check out the work of Olney, et. al. on NMDA antagonist neurotoxicity.
You seem to have a broad knowledge of this subject (I can't recall the details so clearly), but isn't it true that Olney's lesions were only ever found in animals? No human autopsies, right?
It's impossible to know for sure what drug was involved (I was high on the pipeline from a consistent source, though), but I used PCP daily for about a year. I honestly attribute zero lasting effects to that teenage period of.... whatever I was thinking.
Lar
Posted by rovers95 on February 21, 2007, at 7:24:02
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain » rovers95, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 20, 2007, at 16:06:20
> Well, I really should've said "barbiturates" instead of "benzodiazepines". That is my mistake. Please find evidence that barbiturates have been shown ineffective in blocking NMDA-induced neurotoxicity. Yes, Na+ blockers are effective, but I don't like the idea of mixing and matching drugs like this. The reason I mention the benzodiazepines and barbiturates in this context is because they have been USED CLINICALLY with ketamine for years.
>
> Benzodiazepines are also effective enough, IMHO, to be used by people using sane (read: not animal study) doses of ketamine. I'm not positive about this, but I don't think there's any evidence that this neurotoxicity even occurs in humans, though I've seen enough of the effects of dissociative abuse to suspect otherwise. Note that these people were using doses well in excess of what anyone should.
>
> Most people would be well-advised to stay away from drugs like ketamine and MK-801. PCP is the most dangerous, but for different reasons. Memantine is much safer.
>Just wondering what are barbituates??? and do you have any links to uspport this??!!
thanks
mark
Posted by linkadge on February 21, 2007, at 8:21:17
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain, posted by rovers95 on February 21, 2007, at 7:24:02
If I remember correctly, low doses of NDMA antagonists can greatly facilite neuronal placiticity, wherase high doses can cause toxicity?
I remember reading a number of places that NDMA antagonism can prevent the stress (or glutamate) induced reduction of hippocampal granual layer proliferation. (or something)
So is it possable that a "theraputic dose" of ketamine might not be so toxic?
Linkadge
Posted by Quintal on February 21, 2007, at 10:40:42
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain, posted by rovers95 on February 21, 2007, at 7:24:02
>Just wondering what are barbituates???
You've never heard of barbs? They're non-selective CNS depressants - dry alcohol is a poor analogy that is often used. Extremely popular as sleeping pills and tranquillizers from 1903 when Veronal (barbital) was first marketed, until the early sixties when benzos hit the market. They are also very addictive and very dangerous in overdose. Apparently tolerance to the therapeutic effects develop quickly but tolerance to the respiratory depressant effect does not. What you end up with after maybe a few months or years of daily use are addicts who have to take a dose close to that which causes respiratory failure just to achieve an effective therapeutic response.
It was notoriously easy for the addict in this situation to wake and forget they'd taken their nightly dose and take another from the bottle on their bedside table. Many never woke again. This is what happened to Judy Garland with Seconal (secobarbital) and Marylin Monroe (though Marylin is said to have taken a deliberate overdose of Nembutal [pentobarbital]), and this happened to **many** ordinary men and women (but mostly women) of that era. That's why the benzos with their almost ridiculous LD50 became so popular. Benzos are also more effective anxiolytics.
Q
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 21, 2007, at 13:11:55
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain » Chairman_MAO, posted by Larry Hoover on February 21, 2007, at 6:37:43
Yes, I believe you are correct. I don't think they've been found in people. However, they're not looking for vacuoles in every autopsy ...
You are lucky, or perhaps you just didn't use "enough". I have seen video footage of heavy PCP abusers who cannot count down from 100 without getting lost at around 96. Of course, as you pointed out you can never know if there were adulterants involved, but given the animal data I have little doubt that PCP is not a good thing to mess around with. Seriously, I'm not trying to provoke hysterics. My psychopharmacology professor told our class "This is the one drug I emphatically urge you never to try". It has neurotoxicity beyond NAN, in particular to the cerebellum, IIRC. Ketamine is far more benign than PCP.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 21, 2007, at 13:57:26
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain, posted by linkadge on February 21, 2007, at 8:21:17
It is a fact that NMDA antagonists can be neuroprotective. However, the issue is that they can also be neurotoxic in different ways.
However, I'd imagine that like 0.5mg/kg/day ketamine is probably OK.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 21, 2007, at 14:05:26
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain, posted by Quintal on February 21, 2007, at 10:40:42
Barbiturates are not totally obsolete, though; neurologists still use them (secobarbital, phenobarbital, butabarbital). They're just not used for anxiety where benzodiazepines are, as you say, way more effective. Gotta love that rotarod test. ;)
Benzodiazepine withdrawal can actually be WORSE.
"Dry alcohol" is indeed a poor analogy because ethanol is far more than a GABA-A agonist. Interestingly enough, however, the chemical Ro-4513 could've been developed into an "ethanol antidote", but the US government did not like this idea.
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 21, 2007, at 14:17:31
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain » linkadge, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 21, 2007, at 13:57:26
> It is a fact that NMDA antagonists can be neuroprotective. However, the issue is that they can also be neurotoxic in different ways.
>
> However, I'd imagine that like 0.5mg/kg/day ketamine is probably OK.Not meaning to sound the least bit contradictory, but they use infusion rates of up to 7 mg/kg/hour for Complex Regional Pain Syndrome: http://www.rsdfoundation.org/test/ketamineabstract.html
Another centre uses lower doses, in the range you quote: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/490806I have some DXM tablets that I've tried, but they have too many side effects. Still, in a supervised hospital setting, I'd risk the k-hole. I've been many other places already. The k-thingy doesn't scare me one bit. Being closer to Drexel U. is the only reason I've ever had for wishing I lived in Philadelphia. Well, other than real cheese steak. ;-)
Lar
Posted by Chairman_MAO on February 21, 2007, at 14:30:23
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain » Chairman_MAO, posted by Larry Hoover on February 21, 2007, at 14:17:31
7mg/kg/hr is a _LOT_. I mean, do those people even know their own names? Most recreational users [who don't have problems with needles] still don't use ketamine intravenously because you'd be in a k-hole before you could pull the needle out; and that's at a lot less than 7mg/kg. The problem with a k-hole isn't that it's "scary", the problem is that you have no concept of ego, time, etc. ;)
Posted by Quintal on February 21, 2007, at 14:39:06
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain » Quintal, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 21, 2007, at 14:05:26
>Barbiturates are not totally obsolete, though; neurologists still use them (secobarbital, phenobarbital, butabarbital).
There have been people here prescribed barbs as hypnotics, and they seem to have a nasty habit of being victims of sudden death.
Q
Posted by linkadge on February 21, 2007, at 14:43:53
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain » Larry Hoover, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 21, 2007, at 14:30:23
Is PCP more likely to cause psychotic breaks than Ketamine, is there no comparison on those grounds.
Linkadge
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 21, 2007, at 14:44:11
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain » Larry Hoover, posted by Chairman_MAO on February 21, 2007, at 14:30:23
> 7mg/kg/hr is a _LOT_. I mean, do those people even know their own names?
All subjects were on midazolam concurrently, and some had mechanical ventilation. I don't think the subjects were aware of the process, until it had ended. Then, I'd presume some pretty bizarre "awakening" phenomena.
Lar
Posted by dbc on February 21, 2007, at 22:35:22
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain, posted by linkadge on February 21, 2007, at 14:43:53
> Is PCP more likely to cause psychotic breaks than Ketamine, is there no comparison on those grounds.
>
> LinkadgePCP is definetly the more dangerous of the two. Dextromethorphan is also an NMDA antagonist.
Posted by Phillipa on February 22, 2007, at 0:00:31
In reply to Re: Ketamine: a factory reset for the brain, posted by Quintal on February 21, 2007, at 14:39:06
In l974 I was given two seconals in false labor by my OB-GYN and didn't even fall asleep or have the baby. Love Phillipa
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