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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by nickguy on June 29, 2006, at 18:32:49
http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/Understanding_Depression/understanding.htm
maybe that's why sleep deprivation makes you feel better?
Posted by linkadge on June 29, 2006, at 19:22:20
In reply to Interesting article about sleep and Depression, posted by nickguy on June 29, 2006, at 18:32:49
Definately some truth to that.
Linkadge
Posted by Colleen D. on June 29, 2006, at 19:24:38
In reply to Interesting article about sleep and Depression, posted by nickguy on June 29, 2006, at 18:32:49
A light bulb went on in my head when I read this. Thanks so much for posting it!
I totally believe in this theory and have thought for years that this was a MAJOR part of my depression, anxiety, OCD, and SP.
I have always been the person in a group talking about having many vivid dreams every night. Sometimes I can clearly remember 3 or 4 of my when I wake up.
I have just begun taking one Robaxin (muscle relaxant) along with my Tramadol before bedtime and the amount of lower back pain I have in the morning had been at least cut in half. Some mornings I don't have any muscle tension in that area. The key for me is getting to sleep and staying asleep for at least 7 hours. I think that Lexapro, doxepin and clonazepam really help the quality of my sleep. I would love to have a sleep study done without being on these drugs; I think I must really be fighting to move and act out my dreams during the night, which causes my muscle tension.
Here is the therory in a nutshell:
More REM and less recuperative deep sleep leads to tiredness or exhaustion by morning which leads to depressive thinking styles which leads to emontionally arousing rumination which leads to more REM and less recuperative deep sleep.
As trite as it may sound, it is a vicious, vicious cycle and it almost destroyed me.
Another quote from the atricle:
"When unfulfilled emotional arousal remains in the brain's limbic system at sleep onset, the brain creates scenarios that allow those loops to complete. We call them dreams.
The dream acts out, in metaphor, a situation that will allow the emotional loop to be completed and therefore 'flushed' from the brain.
In other words, an imaginary experience whose pattern resembles the 'real life' one closely enough to create the same emotional reaction.
For example, during the day you worry about what someone has said to you, thinking that they were perhaps criticising or making fun of you. That night you have an anxiety dream where someone stabs at you with daggers and you try to run away. The dream allows your system to complete the loop started by the emotional arousal.
However, because you do so much more ruminating, or introspecting, when depressed, the brain has to increase the amount of dreaming you do. And before long you are:
Spending too much time in dream sleep (Rapid Eye Movement - REM) and missing out on physically-rejuvenating Slow Wave Sleep, depleting your hormonal system with extended night-time emotional arousal, exhausting your 'orientation response' - a crucial brain activity that allows you to change your focus of attention and so motivate yourself. It is also a key part of concentration."
Maybe this is not true for everyone, but it hits home for me. Now if I could find a way to get the best quality and correct balance of types of sleep without relying on drugs. Exercise helps some but not a lot. There must be some kind of systemic chemical imbalance which causes this!!!
Colleen
Posted by Phillipa on June 29, 2006, at 21:19:46
In reply to Hallelujah! » nickguy, posted by Colleen D. on June 29, 2006, at 19:24:38
I don't dream much but still sleep too much and wake up very depressed. Why? Love Phillipa
Posted by nickguy on June 29, 2006, at 21:53:38
In reply to Hallelujah! » nickguy, posted by Colleen D. on June 29, 2006, at 19:24:38
I take desipramine. It's a trycyclic antidepressant that supposedly encourages more deep sleep and less REM. (do a google)
Posted by bassman on June 30, 2006, at 6:18:16
In reply to Re: Hallelujah!, posted by nickguy on June 29, 2006, at 21:53:38
Another way of looking at this article is to say, "you know how you worry too much/suffer too much anxiety during the day and that makes you tired/depressed/anxious? You do the same thing at night!"
I wonder if Xanax reduces REM sleep-taking 0.5 mg of it sometime in the evening all but removes my morning anxiety/depression.
Thanks for the article! Wouldn't that be a laugh if AD's don't do anything directly to neurotransmitters, but rather limit REM sleep and the neurotransmitters are just responding to a lower "emotional load"?
Posted by bassman on June 30, 2006, at 6:24:20
In reply to Re: Hallelujah!, posted by bassman on June 30, 2006, at 6:18:16
Well, I guess neither the REM sleep deprivation idea nor my idea is exactly new-here's a journal article from 1981:
“No drug by dose interactions were found. It was concluded that, while both drugs had similar effects on sleep, alprazolam showed significant effects on REM sleep parameters and might be evaluated for possible antidepressant effect”.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=6798616&dopt=Abstract
Posted by Colleen D. on June 30, 2006, at 6:39:47
In reply to Re: Hallelujah!, posted by nickguy on June 29, 2006, at 21:53:38
Is it very sedating? Maybe it would be a good "sleep aid" for me? My doxepin IS sedating and it helps me sleep. I wonder what effect doxepin has on REM?
Thanks,
Colleen
Posted by bassman on June 30, 2006, at 6:54:58
In reply to Re: Hallelujah! » nickguy, posted by Colleen D. on June 30, 2006, at 6:39:47
Colleen, are you referring to my post? If so, no, I find Xanax sedating in the evening when I take it, but not if I take it during the day.
Posted by Colleen D. on June 30, 2006, at 14:48:12
In reply to Re: Hallelujah!, posted by bassman on June 30, 2006, at 6:54:58
but thanks for the info!!!
:-) Colleen
Posted by Colleen D. on June 30, 2006, at 14:54:37
In reply to Re: Hallelujah! » nickguy, posted by Colleen D. on June 30, 2006, at 6:39:47
Here's what I found on a site about depression treatment:
"The effects of doxepin HCl on sleep and depression."
- Medscape Newslettershttp://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract?pmid=7118845
"The effects of doxepin hydrochloride (Adapin) on sleep and depression were evaluated in nine depressed patients with documented sleep difficulties. All subjects were screened for depression on the Hamilton Psychiatric Rating Scale. Sleep disturbance was measured by all-night polysomnography. Doxepin in doses of 75 and 150 mg/day significantly improved sleep efficiency, as evidenced by decreased sleep latency and increased total sleep time. After 2 weeks of treatment, REM latency and percent REM time were dramatically changed. Maximal improvement in depression occurred after 2 weeks of doxepin therapy and at the 150 mg dose."
So I am on the right track with doxepin. Maybe I should consider an increase in dosage since the most I've taken is 50mg. Thanks for the info!!
Colleen
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