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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by tecknohed on November 15, 2005, at 17:47:31
In reply to Amineptine under the tongue (sublingual), posted by sukarno on November 15, 2005, at 16:01:25
> How in the world did you get it? I know the rules of this board don't allow disclosing the exact source, but what country did you get it from? Did you get it online or do you live somewhere where it is available?
> blueberryDITTO!!!
I've looked everywhere for it. Would love to try it. I cann't believe how they can pull it from the market because of potential "abuse" issues, when docs hand out stims and benzos like like candy (well you know what I mean). Very frustrating.Anyway, I know that taking meds right after a meal lessens any nausia. Also, try breaking them up into halves or quarters and spread troughout the day, every hour for example. Or crush and mix your daily dose into a bottled drink and slowly sip throught the day. Increase the concentrations/regularity until you can manage a whole one.
teck
Posted by willyee on November 15, 2005, at 19:52:34
In reply to Re: Amineptine under the tongue (sublingual) » sukarno, posted by tecknohed on November 15, 2005, at 17:47:31
Me too........i know a time or two i came across sources who had a small supply,like in far off countries who had the last supply of the drug.
I dident wanna mess with it because whats the point of spending a lot,waiting forever,just to get a drug that IF IT IS the real deal you can count on always having it.That would stink to have tasted releiaf only to have it taken.But man this drug is something,years after its departure its still talked about a LOT !!!
Must have been something!
Posted by sukarno on November 15, 2005, at 19:54:56
In reply to Re: Amineptine under the tongue (sublingual) » sukarno, posted by tecknohed on November 15, 2005, at 17:47:31
I live in Indonesia. Amineptine was pulled from the market here a few years ago, but I can still get it as there is still leftover stock.
My current drug regimen is:
Stablon (tianeptine) 12.5mg 4x/day
Valium (diazepam) 8mg at 9am and 10mg at 9pm. (I'm currently tapering the dose by 1mg per month. I was on 20mg/day in September, then 19mg/day in October and now 18mg/day.)
Pepcid (famotidine) 40mg 2x/day
My panic attacks and depression are well-controlled but I feel an overwhelming sense of laziness/lack of motivation and apathy, so I'm not sure what is causing that. I also have a very low libido, so those two reasons are why I decided to try amineptine.
When I tried amineptine last time for 3 days, I felt a restoration of my libido and some increase in motivation, but then I felt stomach pain, mild nausea and a burning sensation in my stomach too.
I did try taking amineptine with a full stomach and an antacid... that seemed to help prevent pain in the stomach, but then I felt nauseated.
When I put it under my tongue tonight I experienced a "buzz" which was stronger than my previous experience having taken swallowed it. I felt light-headed/dizzy and light in the limbs. hehheh. I didn't feel a stimulant effect though...but this time I only took 12.5mg instead of 25mg.
Last time it gave me the dizzy and lightweight feeling and a few hours later a stimulant or "activating" effect took hold and continued for at least a day or two. Slightly restless and some anxiety, but no panic attacks.
I guess I'll have to fine-tune the dose.
I'm wondering if amineptine affects me more because both it and tianeptine are metabolised by beta-oxidation in the liver. Wouldn't that cause a drug interaction, boosting the blood levels of both drugs?
I don't want to quit tianeptine though because it is a great anxiolytic in my experience and does work for depression too, although I wouldn't call it a strong antidepressant... more of a "mild" or "light" antidepressant. It didn't worsen my libido. I'm 33 years old and have experienced decreasing libido since I turned 30 or 31.
Those two things concern me a lot.. the low libido and lack of motivation. I'm hoping amineptine can take care of both.
Hey Ed, does cyclizine help nausea by acting as a dopamine antagonist?
Posted by blueberry on November 16, 2005, at 3:39:42
In reply to Re: Amineptine under the tongue (sublingual), posted by sukarno on November 15, 2005, at 19:54:56
Sukarno, could you please tell me about stablon? I am familiar with it and have studied it a lot, but I have never had the chance to ask someone who actually uses it about how it works for them, how it helps, what the side effects are, and stuff like that. Could you please share your experience with stablon?
I have noticed over the years that whenever I DECREASE my dose of an antidepressant, I actually get a good mood for about 2 days. It is a pretty reliable predictable thing for me. I have often wondered if maybe instead of creating a thick pool of neurotransmitters by reuptake inhibition, maybe what I need is a nice flowing stream of neurotransmitters instead. Stablon could do that.
Posted by sukarno on November 16, 2005, at 12:13:15
In reply to Re: Tell me about your Stablon please. » sukarno, posted by blueberry on November 16, 2005, at 3:39:42
> Sukarno, could you please tell me about stablon? I am familiar with it and have studied it a lot, but I have never had the chance to ask someone who actually uses it about how it works for them, how it helps, what the side effects are, and stuff like that. Could you please share your experience with stablon?
Sure. :-) I started on Stablon 8 months ago at 12.5mg 3x/day. For the first 12 days I noticed no effect from it and on day 12 or 13 I felt what I describe as "activation". It was like a mild stimulant effect consisting of a feeling like your adrenaline is flowing more, some reduction in appetite and an overall jittery feeling. This is somewhat comparable to SSRIs when they first take effect, however I would say in my experience it is much more mild than the effect of any SSRI I've tried.
Later on I began to get headaches which were vascular and very similar to the type of headache you get when you are on the computer for too long or forget to have your morning coffee.
I then reduced the dose to 1/2 tablet twice a day for a few days and then increased the dose again. It took a lot of fine-tuning to get to the dose which didn't cause the headaches.I also had more vivid dreams and some nightmares.
After 3 weeks of being on Stablon my depression had lifted quite a bit and I also began to feel more relaxed.
With long term use, I don't get side effects from Stablon anymore, except for the occasional dry mouth, but that is just mild and transient.
Apart from that, Stablon seems to work better for me in the long term.
The first month was the time when I experienced side effects and a lot of fine-tuning of the dose.After that it was smooth sailing. It did seem to "poop out" after a few months and then I raised the dose to 4x/day. The maximum recommended dose from what I could gather is 6 tablets a day (75mg).
I'd say it is much more tolerable than SSRIs for me and perhaps if you can't tolerate SSRIs, this might be the answer. Stablon never interfered with my libido and never caused any blunting of my emotions. If anything, I would say that rarely it would actually enhance my emotions and empathy for other people.
The downside is the multiple daily dosing as it is very short-acting and the withdrawal symptoms I've experienced when lowering the dose were headache and a return of my anxiety and depression, but no rebound....perhaps because I tapered slowly.
I've been on 4 tablets a day for a few months now and am very satisfied with this medication.
:-)
(I do take 2 tablets when I first wake up and then my morning is off to a good start.)
It's also helped my asthma which is a very nice bonus. :-)
I think the longer I take Stablon, the better I feel overall. I wouldn't doubt it if it really does help rebuild the hippocampus as is claimed by some recent studies. I just feel more calm with extended use and I think the studies show that to be true also.
Good luck and I hope you can give it a try. I'd say take it for no less than 6 months to see if it really works. This drug seems to express its best effects in the long term. :-)Best wishes!
Paul
Posted by ed_uk on November 17, 2005, at 14:03:45
In reply to Re: Amineptine under the tongue (sublingual), posted by sukarno on November 15, 2005, at 19:54:56
Hi!
>Valium (diazepam) 8mg at 9am and 10mg at 9pm. (I'm currently tapering the dose by 1mg per month. I was on 20mg/day in September, then 19mg/day in October and now 18mg/day.)
That's a great taper. People who rush benzo tapers sometimes end up in a dreadful mess - occasionally taking months or years to recover. Rapid benzo tapers never did anyone any good! Aim for the lowest dose of diazepam which relieves your anxiety/panic - don't force yourself to discontinue it entirely if you still need it for anxiety.
>Ed, does cyclizine help nausea by acting as a dopamine antagonist?
No - it's mechanism of action isn't fully understood, it does act as an antihistamine and anticholinergic though. It also causes the esophageal sphincter to contract. It's usually fairly well tolerated. Cyclizine is widely used in the UK as an antiemetic.
Domperidone (Motilium) might be useful. It's a peripherally acting dopamine antagonist which doesn't cross the blood brain barrier. Is it available in Indonesia? If not, haloperidol (Haldol, Serenace - a potent dopamine D2 antagonist and antiemetic) might be effective at a very low dose eg. 0.5mg every 12 hours. Haloperidol is only suitable for short term use. It's highly unlikely that you'll need an anti-nausea med in the long run anyway.
Kind regards
Ed
Posted by sukarno on November 17, 2005, at 22:04:05
In reply to Re: Amineptine under the tongue (sublingual) » sukarno, posted by ed_uk on November 17, 2005, at 14:03:45
"No - it's mechanism of action isn't fully understood, it does act as an antihistamine and anticholinergic though. It also causes the esophageal sphincter to contract. It's usually fairly well tolerated. Cyclizine is widely used in the UK as an antiemetic."
Oh, I see. Hey, that might be good for GERD since it causes the LES to contract?
After I lowered the dose to 12.5mg/day I feel much better. I only slept 3 hours and feel wide awake now, but no nausea. 25mg was too much. Perhaps I can remain on this low dose for a week or two and if that works, I can increase it as needed.
You are right about the benzo taper. I think GABA, unlike dopamine or other neurotransmitters, takes longer to return to normal so the taper should be smooth and slow.
:-)
Posted by ed_uk on November 18, 2005, at 13:57:40
In reply to Re: Amineptine under the tongue (sublingual) » ed_uk, posted by sukarno on November 17, 2005, at 22:04:05
Hi P!
>After I lowered the dose to 12.5mg/day I feel much better. I only slept 3 hours and feel wide awake now, but no nausea.
:-)
....but three hours sleep really isn't enough! You don't want to wreck your body! Perhaps you could try 6.25mg?
Kind regards
Ed
Posted by sukarno on November 21, 2005, at 23:04:25
In reply to Re: Amineptine under the tongue (sublingual), posted by willyee on November 15, 2005, at 19:52:34
Hi Ed! :-)
I'm adjusting to the amineptine now. I've been taking just over 12.5mg, but less than 25mg. I haven't noticed any effects from it now, so I guess I will try to increase the dose to 25mg. :-)
Posted by sukarno on November 21, 2005, at 23:07:55
In reply to Re: Amineptine under the tongue (sublingual), posted by sukarno on November 21, 2005, at 23:04:25
Oops, I forgot to mention in the previous post that I've been taking it for the past few days on a full stomach with a lot of water and not under the tongue anymore. A pharmacist recommended taking it with a lot of water to minimise any potential stomach upset.
Posted by ed_uk on November 23, 2005, at 14:03:31
In reply to Re: Amineptine under the tongue (sublingual), posted by sukarno on November 21, 2005, at 23:04:25
Hi P :-)
No more nausea?
Ed
Posted by sukarno on November 24, 2005, at 7:32:08
In reply to Re: Amineptine under the tongue (sublingual) » sukarno, posted by ed_uk on November 23, 2005, at 14:03:31
No more nausea. :-)
Seems like it isn't doing anything now, even at 25mg. Perhaps I should raise the dose. I do feel less depressed though, so that's a good thing. I just hope to feel more motivation since dopamine tends to boost motivation.
Posted by ed_uk on November 24, 2005, at 13:47:10
In reply to Re: Amineptine under the tongue (sublingual), posted by sukarno on November 24, 2005, at 7:32:08
Hi P
Perhaps it's time to raise the dose. What dose will you try next?
Ed
Posted by sukarno on November 24, 2005, at 20:35:05
In reply to Re: Amineptine under the tongue (sublingual) » sukarno, posted by ed_uk on November 24, 2005, at 13:47:10
Hi Ed! :-)
I took 25mg again this morning after I ate breakfast and when I stood up I felt my heart was beating fast (120bpm), breathless and tired, until I sat down.Perhaps it's not the amineptine. Yesterday I didn't drink as much water as I used to. I'm increasing the fluids to try to bring up the blood pressure.. (I assume it's hypotension since I'm ok when sitting).
Reminds me of Tofranil! (imipramine)By the way, I'm not sure if it is because I slept in the wrong position, but my right side hurts.. in the ribs. Not really on the side, but more around where the liver is. It hurts when I touch it or when I try to sit up. If it was liver pain it wouldn't get worse by touching the rib cage would it? Maybe I'm worrying too much.. my wife says I slept on my right side the entire night. That could be it.
I will get that liver function test done one of these days. I'm just a procrastinator. hehheh.
Posted by sukarno on November 25, 2005, at 22:37:36
In reply to Re: Amineptine under the tongue (sublingual), posted by willyee on November 15, 2005, at 19:52:34
I've noticed a "withdrawal syndrome"(?) when I wake up in the morning, consisting of difficulty in concentration, some anxiety and restlessness until I take amineptine, after which I feel calm again.
Perhaps I should take it twice a day? Maybe it's just the depression returning.
Posted by ed_uk on November 26, 2005, at 13:19:51
In reply to Amineptine withdrawal or rebound?, posted by sukarno on November 25, 2005, at 22:37:36
Hi P :-)
>Perhaps I should take it twice a day?
I think that's a good idea. Perhaps your symptoms are a bit like a mild form of stimulant withdrawal?
Ed
Posted by sukarno on November 28, 2005, at 0:26:44
In reply to Re: Amineptine under the tongue (sublingual), posted by willyee on November 15, 2005, at 19:52:34
It's been said that bupropion helps reduce craving for nicotine, by increasing levels of dopamine in the brain.
It seems to me that since last night when I raised the dosage of amineptine to 50mg (25mg b.i.d.), I feel a strong aversion to tobacco.
I had suffered from frequent cravings for tobacco for many years despite having quit a long time ago.
Now I can't stand the thought of cigarettes. Even picturing in my mind a package of Marlboro just makes me sick.
That's definitely a good thing. :-) I feel a bit jittery, and slightly lowered appetite, but no nausea. I also reduced tianeptine to 12.5mg 3x/day.
I can't think of a more pleasurable drug I've taken than nicotine. I know that sounds funny, but if I had to choose between getting drunk or smoking a strong, full-flavoured cigarette, I'd choose the cigarette. The only other recreational drug I've tried is cannabis, but I haven't used that in 9 years and don't have any desire to try that again.
Posted by sukarno on November 28, 2005, at 9:07:57
In reply to Re: Amineptine under the tongue (sublingual), posted by willyee on November 15, 2005, at 19:52:34
I took 25mg Survector tonight (took 25mg in the morning too) and 25 minutes after taking it I felt dizzy so I lied down on the bed and then my heart began to beat irregularly. Scared me to death! I thought amineptine isn't cardiotoxic like other tricyclic antidepressants. hmm... I'm not nervous..actually I feel sedated after taking it... sleepy and dizzy.
It was brief and I could feel it in my carotid artery and my pulse... fast then slow then fast again..then it went back to normal.
I am taking tianeptine too... perhaps those two can have an interaction? There isn't anything in the literature about taking these two drugs together. Stablon never affects my heart though.I just don't want to be depressed...and was feeling better today than I have in a long, long time. Survector makes me relaxed...not nervous anymore. I can focus more, enjoy things more and have a better quality of life.
Is there anyone else on psychobabble who has taken amineptine and experienced an irregular, pounding or rapid heartbeat, even if it was very brief (e.g. seconds)?
Thanks. I really appreciate it.
Paul
p.s. I'm going to get an ECG as soon as possible to rule things out. It might be a harmless arrhythmia, or something more serious.
Posted by ed_uk on November 28, 2005, at 13:08:23
In reply to Irregular heartbeat, posted by sukarno on November 28, 2005, at 9:07:57
Hi Paul
It sounds like orthostatic hypotension. Your doctor could confirm this by measuring your BP while sitting and while standing.
Ed
Posted by sukarno on November 29, 2005, at 7:37:36
In reply to Re: Amineptine under the tongue (sublingual), posted by willyee on November 15, 2005, at 19:52:34
Hi Ed. Yeah, it probably was due to orthostatic hypotension. It feels like it drops my blood pressure after I take it (if I'm sitting or standing).
I think 50mg is too much at this point because I had a major panic attack today after taking a dose. It started out feeling just like cannabis intoxication, except it was not pleasant at all...quite frightening. My voice felt like it was coming from another direction, my hands and feet felt detached from my body and things felt "distant".
Clearly, a feeling of depersonalisation. I thought I'd lose my mind, but it only lasted 10 minutes tops. Perhaps it was a panic attack.My heart rate was no more than 70bpm during this and I was sitting at the time and eating lunch.
I had taken Survector at the same time that I felt dry mouth from Stablon.
Do you know if it is contraindicated to take Stablon with Survector? I hope I don't have a stroke or something bad happen to me. I know of only one other person on psychobabble who took both drugs for 5 months, but that's only one person.
The lack of information on the internet about Stablon and Survector is depressing.
When you take these meds, you are basically on your own. Even the docs here who prescribe psychiatric drugs are quite ignorant and I wouldn't put any faith in them.Thankfully I don't feel depressed, but I need a stronger antidepressant effect to feel normal. I feel slightly below normal...just not enough to qualify as depressed.
take care.
Paul
Posted by sukarno on November 29, 2005, at 7:43:30
In reply to Panic attack (felt like cannabis intoxication), posted by sukarno on November 29, 2005, at 7:37:36
I'll try to split the doses into smaller ones to avoid the side effects of increasing the dose. I suppose I can go from 25mg to 37.5mg, instead of doubling it to 50mg. That was probably too high of an increase.
Are you still on citalopram? I've heard that SSRIs can produce long-term and possibly permanent sexual dysfunction.
BTW, amineptine seems to be pro-sexual only in the short-term. I noticed an increase in libido in the beginning, but not anymore.
Have you ever tried Trivastal? I read an abstract that said it produces mild to moderate antidepressant effects.
Best wishes! :-)
Paul
Posted by ed_uk on November 30, 2005, at 14:58:43
In reply to Panic attack (felt like cannabis intoxication), posted by sukarno on November 29, 2005, at 7:37:36
Hi Paul
>Do you know if it is contraindicated to take Stablon with Survector?
No, I don't. As far as I can tell, no information is available :-(
>My voice felt like it was coming from another direction, my hands and feet felt detached from my body and things felt "distant".
Sounds terrible. Did amineptine cause anxiety at a lower dose?
>37.5mg
How are you finding it?
Kind regards
Ed
Posted by ed_uk on November 30, 2005, at 15:01:07
In reply to Going to try to stay on 37.5mg/day, posted by sukarno on November 29, 2005, at 7:43:30
Hi P :-)
>Are you still on citalopram?
Yes, 80mg/day. I still have a bit of anxiety but not much.
>I've heard that SSRIs can produce long-term and possibly permanent sexual dysfunction.
Perhaps. I could be an example of this. I've been on SSRIs since I was about 14, 7 years ago.
>Have you ever tried Trivastal?
No, it's not marketed here. It would be interesting to try a dopamine agonist though, especially since I react so badly to dopamine antagonists!
Ed
Posted by sukarno on November 30, 2005, at 23:26:22
In reply to Re: Going to try to stay on 37.5mg/day » sukarno, posted by ed_uk on November 30, 2005, at 15:01:07
Yesterday morning I was late to take the amineptine and experienced a "fever"..feeling hot in the forehead and warm all over, visual lag or something like that (everytime I'd move my eyes, the room would also move...) and just felt like crap.
30 minutes after taking the amineptine, I felt cooler...and again relaxed. If I take too much it will trigger anxiety. So a delicated balance must be maintained.
I can see how this produces dependence, especially in those who have abused other drugs previously.
Ed, you should try a dopamine agonist because SSRIs have withdrawal symptoms, some of which can be rather nasty...and of course the sexual dysfunction and "poop out" (tolerance or neurotoxicity) that occurs with them.
Perhaps Mirapex (pramipexole) or another non-ergot dopamine agonist would help? I think you can get that in the UK. It shouldn't cause anxiety like other dopamine agonists (e.g. selegiline).:-)
I do feel better now in my mood. I had some terrible depression yesterday. The day will start out good, then I take amineptine and a few hours later I feel depressed (sometimes terribly), so then I reserve the 2 doses of tianeptine for the evening to deal with that.I'm back up to 4 tablets a day. It's too hard to lower the dose...at least for now. It does a great deal of good for my anxiety. Too bad tianeptine isn't marketed in the UK, USA or Canada. I think they would find it to be somewhat useful.
Cheers! :-)
Paul
Posted by ed_uk on December 3, 2005, at 12:39:31
In reply to I guess amineptine causes strong dependence!, posted by sukarno on November 30, 2005, at 23:26:22
Hi Paul
>30 minutes after taking the amineptine, I felt cooler...and again relaxed.
Gosh..... but are you psychologically dependent on it or just physically? Do you crave your next dose?!
>Perhaps Mirapex (pramipexole) or another non-ergot dopamine agonist would help? I think you can get that in the UK.
I *would* be interested in trying it....... but no pdoc would even consider prescribing it for me! I've been discharged from psychiatry now anyway. My GP prescribes the citalopram now :-)
>The day will start out good, then I take amineptine and a few hours later I feel depressed (sometimes terribly)
Do you think amineptine is doing more harm than good? There might be a better option.
Kind regards
Ed
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