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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by cecilia on November 20, 2005, at 6:01:59
There was a thread about this a long time ago, but no one then seemed to have any hard data. Though it's not easy to get hard data on anything to do with MAOI's. Anyway, I generally avoid meat-occasionally some chicken or fish, and until I started Marplan I was trying to increase my protein intake by eating whey protein powder. One of the sources on Dr. Bob's tip list, ( described authoritatively as Anon!) says to avoid protein powders, but cottage cheese, which all the lists say is fine, lists whey as one of its ingredients. It's not that I particularly like the stuff, but I need sources of low calorie protein. Anyone knowledgable about this? Cecilia
Posted by Declan on November 20, 2005, at 13:40:13
In reply to MAOI's and protein powder, posted by cecilia on November 20, 2005, at 6:01:59
I only know a little about this. There are hydrolysed protein powders and in them the protein is split up into its constituent amino acids, maybe 20 or so. There's lots of L-phenylalanine (1.1g), L-tyrosine (1.1g) and L-tryptophan (0.6g) available in a single seve of this one in front of me (Musashi Shih Ho).
So you can see a potential problem there. What about whey though?
I imagine if your use of such protein powders was not excessive (so to speak), the main response would be to feel revved up ie I'm assuming that the protein powder would potentiate the MAOI. Would such a powder help with MAOI poopout?
Declan
Posted by cecilia on November 22, 2005, at 3:33:29
In reply to Re: MAOI's and protein powder, posted by Declan on November 20, 2005, at 13:40:13
The label on the protein powder I was using before starting Marplan says Micro-filtered, hydrolysed and ion-exchanged whey protein isolates. Who knows what the heck that means? I've been afraid to try it. I had been disguising the taste with chocolate soy milk, but of course soy is another questionable thing. Well, the chocolate is too, according to some ancient lists, but I'll never give that up! The newer lists say it's fine. Sometimes they say it's fine in "moderate" quantities. Who knows what THAT means? When I tried Nardil (13 years ago) I actually wrote to the
manufacturer asking what "moderate" meant - their reply"ask your doctor!" I HAVE cut way way back on chocolate and other fattening foods since then, but life with NO chocolate would not be bearable. Anyway, I have no expectations of whey revving me up, and since I've never had an AD actually work, poopout has never become an issue. It's just so frustrating that it's so hard to find accurate info on anything to do with MAOI's. Cecilia
Posted by cecilia on November 22, 2005, at 3:40:27
In reply to Re: MAOI's and protein powder, posted by Declan on November 20, 2005, at 13:40:13
When you say the hydrolysed powder is split up into its constituent amino acids, what exactly does that mean? Does your body somehow process them differently than if the same amino acids were all together in say, a piece of chicken? Cecilia
Posted by Declan on November 22, 2005, at 4:35:18
In reply to Re: protein powder-Declan, posted by cecilia on November 22, 2005, at 3:40:27
Well I *think* it is different. The protein powders are (more) like taking free form amino acids. Protein is broken down into these, isn't it, but it would be much slower and less amino acids overall I imagine. If you've never had any effect from a MAOI (or any other AD) you might think you could try the protein powder. It might not be advisable but I'd do it.
Declan
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2005, at 10:10:41
In reply to Re: MAOI's and protein powder-Declan, posted by cecilia on November 22, 2005, at 3:33:29
> The label on the protein powder I was using before starting Marplan says Micro-filtered, hydrolysed and ion-exchanged whey protein isolates. Who knows what the heck that means?
Micro-filtered....they took the lumps out
hyrolysed.....pre-digested, i.e. amino acids, not proteins
ion-exchanged....this context is unusual, but it may mean that the product is low sodium. Low in some mineral compared to the crude product, at any rate.> I've been afraid to try it.
It should not be a problem.
> I had been disguising the taste with chocolate soy milk, but of course soy is another questionable thing.
Soy isn't a problem. Fermented soy is a problem. Fresh soy milk is zero risk, unless it is fermented (spoiled, in this case).
Tyramine forms from bacterial degradation of protein. When that process is uncontrolled we call it spoilage, or rotting. When it occurs using selected organisms, we consider it as adding flavour and character to a food. Aged protein. Fermented protein. Those are bad.
> Well, the chocolate is too, according to some ancient lists, but I'll never give that up! The newer lists say it's fine. Sometimes they say it's fine in "moderate" quantities. Who knows what THAT means? When I tried Nardil (13 years ago) I actually wrote to the
> manufacturer asking what "moderate" meant - their reply"ask your doctor!" I HAVE cut way way back on chocolate and other fattening foods since then, but life with NO chocolate would not be bearable. Anyway, I have no expectations of whey revving me up, and since I've never had an AD actually work, poopout has never become an issue. It's just so frustrating that it's so hard to find accurate info on anything to do with MAOI's. CeciliaIf by newer list you mean the list put out by Dr. Shulman of Sunnybrook Hospital, then you can trust what's on it.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2005, at 10:13:24
In reply to Re: protein powder-Declan, posted by cecilia on November 22, 2005, at 3:40:27
> When you say the hydrolysed powder is split up into its constituent amino acids, what exactly does that mean? Does your body somehow process them differently than if the same amino acids were all together in say, a piece of chicken? Cecilia
Hydrolysed means pre-digested. Hydrolysis is what your stomach does to digest proteins. Once the aminos are free from the protein (i.e. hydrolysed), they can be absorbed by the body. So hydrolysed whey protein powder has a head start, but after it hits the stomach, it's the same.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2005, at 11:02:43
In reply to Re: MAOI's and protein powder- » cecilia, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2005, at 10:10:41
> > I had been disguising the taste with chocolate soy milk, but of course soy is another questionable thing.
>
> Soy isn't a problem. Fermented soy is a problem. Fresh soy milk is zero risk, unless it is fermented (spoiled, in this case).I can't find the original document that said soy milk was okay. All I can find is a summary that says that soy products are questionable, because as they age, tyramine can increase. Freshly made tofu was fine, but week-old tofu was not.....something like that. It may apply similarly to soy milk.
You need to find out how sensitive you are to tyramine. You really need to do this, anyway, to get an understanding of what kind of a risk you take by inhibiting the enzyme MAO. If a food is questionable, in any sense, you can eat a little bit, and wait and see how you feel.
I don't think soy milk should be a problem. It's made from things that are not themselves of concern. However, it could "age" between the time it is produced and the time you drink it. It's an unlikely risk, in my opinion.
Lar
Posted by cecilia on November 25, 2005, at 2:56:14
In reply to Re: MAOI's and protein powder-Cecilia!, posted by Larry Hoover on November 22, 2005, at 11:02:43
Thanks, Larry and Declan. Well, I'll probably wait to see if the Marplan has any beneficial effects before experimenting with the food too much. Given my extreme treatment resistance, I'm not exactly holding my breath. No side effects so far at 30 mg. I'm just so afraid of having the same "MAO inhibition kick in effect " with Marplan as I had with Nardil. Does anyone know exactly what happens to your body when the MAO starts being inhibited? With Nardil, I was on 45 mg for 28 days, sugar pill effects, 10 days at 60 mg, again no effects, then POW, the worst headache ever, pain in all my muscles and joints, extreme pain and dryness in my eyes. I don't think it was anything I ate, as my blood pressure wasn't elevated. I've told myself that if this happens again, I'll just lower the dose instead of giving up, I'll see if I have the courage to do that. One thing I'm doing differently this time is taking a B vitamin complex daily as I've read that MAO's can cause problems due to B6 depletion. With Parnate I had no difficulty figuring out immediately that the stuff was poison for me (like drinking a thousand cups of coffee a day) but Nardil for me was very very sneaky. No one else I've read about has related this experience, so I guess I'm just weird. Cecilia
This is the end of the thread.
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