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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 20 to 44 of 44. Go back in thread:
Posted by Blake G on September 2, 2003, at 21:57:23
In reply to Re: Pyroluria » Larry Hoover » freedom2001 » tealady, posted by Ron Hill on September 2, 2003, at 13:01:28
Ron,
I would suggest for time time being avoiding supplements containing copper. 2 mg is not really a small amount.
The issues you described may be explained by a number of factors. These may include dietary components inhibiting absorption, the form of the nutrient, absorption competition with other nutrients. For example supplemental iron and calcium and dietary phytate can inhibit zinc absorption. Copper does not typically effect zinc absorption although high copper levels can inhibit zincs metabolic fucntion.
Dr. William Walsh writes that most pyrolurics have half or more of the symptoms listed on my page.
The following links may interest you:
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/minerals/zinc/zinc.html
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminB6/b6.htmlRegards, Blake
Posted by Blake G on September 2, 2003, at 22:00:56
In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by McPac on September 2, 2003, at 13:37:18
McPac,
No it does not. Roughly 27% of schizophrenics are pyroluric. Dr. Carl Pfeiffer first studied pyroluria in relation to schizophrenia.
Regards, Blake
Posted by Blake G on September 2, 2003, at 22:06:24
In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by McPac on September 2, 2003, at 13:42:15
McPac,
Every one is different. The statments made about pyroluria and omega-3's are general findings and do not apply to everyone. Everyone, pyrolurics included, needs some omega-3 fatty acids. I would suggest that for pyrolurics the average ideal amount of omega-3 fatty acids, and the ratio to and types of omega-6 fatty acids, is different to others. Maybe you would do better adding evening primrose oil with your fish oil, maybe not? Everyone is unique and chemical imbalances contributing to symptoms often co-exist with one another.
Regards, Blake
Posted by Ron Hill on September 2, 2003, at 23:43:46
In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by Blake G on September 2, 2003, at 21:57:23
Posted by tealady on September 3, 2003, at 4:35:31
In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by Blake G on September 2, 2003, at 21:57:23
Posted by McPac on September 3, 2003, at 21:36:17
In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by Blake G on September 2, 2003, at 22:06:24
Hi Blake, thanks for those responses.
I've got a question for you.....I go to Pfeiffer Treatment Center and they are currently treating me for a very high histamine level.....I'm taking shovelfuls of supplements every day, they've had me on this supplement regimen for almost 9 months now, mainly designed to lower the histamine (I was also found to be zinc deficient, high copper, pyroluric)...anyway, my histamine level was 129 when first tested (October of 2002)...AFTER all of their supps I was retested in late June of this year and it was 186!! VERY disappointing to say the LEAST! Now, Pfeiffer's theory is that histamine blocks serotonin production, which results in my problems (depression/ocd/anxiety/insomnia)...they say that if I get my histamine level down that I should feel better....the serotonin-enhancing meds DEFINITELY make me feel much, much better...do you buy their theory Blake? Does high histamine block serotonin? Will lowering that high histamine level allow more serotonin to be produced? Pfeiffer focuses on this ENDLESS long-term plan of reducing histamine levels...the supps are all designed to lower histamine...but while that endless goal is being attempted, I strongly think that they should be giving me more supplements to increase serotonin activity...that way they could keep their long-term, endless goal while also trying to alleviate my symptoms NOW...it doesn't do me much good to have to deal with these problems everyday while waiting forever for their goal to be reached...their supps aren't going to do anybody SQUAT (vitamin a,c,d, methionine, tmg, etc.) for severe problems....sure, that may be the way to lower histamine eventually (after years and years) but what is that weak, lame crap going to do right NOW!? Kind of like going to the hospital while bleeding to death and having them give you something that will take 2 years to begin working! Any thoughts on all this Blake? Much appreciated!
Posted by McPac on September 3, 2003, at 22:11:42
In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by Blake G on September 2, 2003, at 22:06:24
One other thing about Pfeiffer........folic acid is totally off-limits for me, according to Pfeiffer (and niacin as well) due to my high histamine levels...but so many depressives are HELPED by folic acid that I really wonder whether that is smart for me to NOT be taking it? (I took it for a short while before going there and told them that I thought it was helping!) That would be a shame if I could be taking it and having it help me, rather than not taking it because of their 'theory'. Also, they have me only taking certain B-vitamins (B6,B12), what about all the rest---for one thing, I've read that only taking certain B-vitamins can throw the other B's out of whack...furthermore, I've read that being deficient in other B's (B1, B2 and others) can cause depression...what do you think of my being on ONLY ceratin B-vitamins while totally excluding most others? Thanks!
Posted by McPac on September 3, 2003, at 22:19:22
In reply to Blake, Re: Pyroluria, posted by McPac on September 3, 2003, at 21:36:17
In case anybody is wondering why I just don't ask Pfeiffer these questions, the answer is very simple...........Pfeiffer's system of communication STINKS! As in worthless!
Posted by Blake G on September 4, 2003, at 3:53:33
In reply to Blake, Re: Pyroluria, posted by McPac on September 3, 2003, at 21:36:17
McPac,
I'm sorry to hear you have not got the results you are looking for. It's hard to say without knowing what your test results where are what exact supplements you are taking. Some of the supplements which generally lower histamine also raise serotonin. These include calcium & methionine. I do not know why your histamine has gone up? There is some evidence that histamine antagonizes the metabolic effects of serotonin. The real test of effectiveness, as you know, is if you feel better. It sounds to me like there is something more complicated at play than simply histadelia (high histamine). I would encourage you should give them a call and discuss these issues with them.
The way to determine if one should avoid folate is to look at their red blood cell folate levels. A histadelic with high levels should probably avoid folate, while a histadelic with low levels should restore there stores. You are right, many people with depression are low in folate.
Are you familiar with water fasting under resting conditions. This historical healing technique was used by the three renowned Fathers of our Western Medicine - Hippocrates, Galen and Paracelsus. It encourage an advanced state of detoxification and rejuvenation. It is known to restore chemical balance. Hunger typically disappears after about 2 days. There is a listing of doctors who are qualified to supervise fasts at the following link:
International Association of Hygienic Physicians
http://free.freespeech.org/nhn/iahp/index.htmlLet me know if you want more information regarding fasting or any thing elese.
Regards, Blake
Posted by tealady on September 4, 2003, at 5:18:48
In reply to Blake, Re: Pyroluria, posted by McPac on September 3, 2003, at 21:36:17
I think you should try talking to them too..even if difficult.
Part of the problem would have to be that science just does not know it all as yet, so there may be something about you they have not yet discovered that makes things work differently.
Did they test your blood folic and niacin levels?
I need zinc and B6, B12 too(only found out by looking at symptoms)..and my folate was over the top of range too..but then I do take a multiB for balance..only because I read you were supposed to. I've been told by a doc on a forum tha my histamine response not "by the book" on a no of occasions too...haven't worked out what that means or what one is supposed to do about that yet!I'm hoping for some feedback, but I would THINK most vitamin/drug reactions, up or down regulations etc should be fairly stable by 3 months..so 4 months is a fair trial of anything?
I realise there are fast and slow responders for everything..but is 4 months a fair trial for some drugs that may say downregulate receptors and hence increase other neurotransmitters?
Is there a "typical" time for neurotransmitters to be up or downregulated in?...like say 12 weeks?(I'm picking that as for thyroid users on "armour" a large percentage noticed a "reaction" at 12 weeks...I even called it the "12 week crash"). At least for me , I've always felt the effects of drugs, vitamins etc by 3 months..
Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 4, 2003, at 10:12:18
In reply to Re: Pyroluria » Larry Hoover » freedom2001 » tealady, posted by Ron Hill on September 2, 2003, at 13:01:28
> > Pyroluria (pyrrole disorder) (Pyroluria
> > (originally known as malvaria) is a genetic condition resulting ...
> > http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/pyroluria.htm
> >
> > ..hmmm I have just about all those symptoms, then again I've usually take B6 and zinc and EPO...
> > Jan
> -------------------------------------
>
> Hi Jan,
>
> Jan, thank you for posting the link. Also thank you to Freedom for initiating the topic in this thread. And Larry, many thanks to you for your seemingly endless contribution of informative posts.It's an interaction, Ron, that I really enjoy. Without your, and other's, feedback, I would have nothing more than book-learning. It's where the rubber hits the road, real people having real experiences, that I really get insight. I thank you for contributing so much to the dialogues.
> After reading the link (and the embedded links) I identified with many (but not all) of the symptoms for pyroluria (pyrrole disorder). So I went to my stockpile of vitamins and supplements and dug out a 100 mg tablet of vitamin B-6 (pyridoxine hydrochloride) and a 30 mg capsule of zinc (an amino acid chelate) and took them on an empty stomach. The benefit was profound.
>
> Further, I have continued to take the B-6 and zinc (in isolation of taking my other vitamins) for the past three days and the benefits continue. It's too early to tell if it will last, but I wanted to document my initial response for others on this board to read.
>
> Let me discuss the specifics. I am a bipolar II patient and I take 600 mg/day of Lithobid. It does a good job controlling my hypomania, but for some time now, I’ve been having a very difficult time with dysphoric mood states (extreme irritability). I’m convinced that the foul mood states are somehow related to serotonin deficiencies because when I take an SSRI the irritability goes away. However, I cannot tolerate the SSRI side effects. For a few months niacin was helping, but then it kind of lost most of its effectiveness. I switched to niacinamide, but it did little or nothing. I added some Neurontin (gabapentin) which helped, but the rebound from the short half-life medication left me worse than if I hadn’t taken it to begin with. But when I take the B-6 and zinc my irritability goes away.Makes me wonder if the dose of niacin you were using adversely affected other metabolic processes which are dependent on B6 and/or zinc. Perhaps you can go back to niacin later, once you get more experience with the tweaking.
> But what I don’t understand is that I have been taking the same quantity of B-6 (pyridoxine hydrochloride) as a component of my B-complex for several years. Further, I’ve been taking the same exact zinc chelate everyday for the past several months because of Larry’s writings regarding zinc. So I’m puzzled as to why taking B-6 and zinc by themselves on an empty stomach does such a good job (so far) treating my irritability, but taking the same amount of B-6 and zinc chelate on a full stomach in combination with my extensive matrix of vitamins and supplements does not even touch the dysphoric mood symptoms. Is it some kind of competition issue?It does appear to be the case, but I can't think of any specific reason for that to occur.
> Is the small amount (2 mg) of copper in my multi-vitamin interfering with the absorption of the zinc?
Zinc modulates copper uptake, but not the other way around. Your zinc dose may well be suppressing copper uptake, but drinking water from copper plumbing can have astounding amounts of copper in it. I'd have trouble believing anyone could be having trouble getting enough copper.
Have you explored the Linus Pauling Institute website? For each nutrient listed, it also talks about interactions. Maybe you'll get an "A-hah!" moment from that.
http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/contentnuts.html
> Next I plan to experiment with my omega-3 (fish oil) supplementation. I currently remain convinced of the general health benefits and the mental heath benefits of omega-3 fatty acids. However, after reading the links on pyrrole disorder, I got to thinking that my brain “feels good” when I eat foods high in arachadonic acid such as egg yolks and animal organ meats.
>
> Any comments?
>
> -- RonEgg yolks and organ meats have a lot more in them than just arichadonic acid, Ron. I'd hesitate to jump to that conclusion.
Lar
Posted by Ron Hill on September 4, 2003, at 11:15:46
In reply to Re: Pyroluria » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on September 4, 2003, at 10:12:18
> Have you explored the Linus Pauling Institute website? For each nutrient listed, it also talks about interactions. Maybe you'll get an "A-hah!" moment from that.
>
> http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/contentnuts.htmlI only found the site a couple days ago when Blake posted the links. Thanks for the table of contents. It's a great site and I'll spend some time reading the various pages.
Thanks Lar.
-- Ron
Posted by McPac on September 4, 2003, at 17:57:39
In reply to Re: Blake, Re: Pyroluria, posted by Blake G on September 4, 2003, at 3:53:33
The way to determine if one should avoid folate is to look at their red blood cell folate levels.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've got all my test results from Pfeiffer right in front of me. No where does it show any results for red blood cell folate levels. I really wonder if they just do a lot of assuming, i.e. "well, if the patient is histadelic then he MUST already have too much folate"...hard to tell what they're doing when you can't simply ask. Pfeiffer's communication with their patients is lousy, as others here on this board have also found out.
Are you familiar with water fasting under resting conditions. Let me know if you want more information regarding fasting or any thing elese.
>>>>>>>>> I'm not familiar with it Blake. Seems like it might be hard to do though when consuming gobs and globs of supplements throughout the day and night along w/ meds. (MANY supps! I've posted the list before and will do it again if you think I should). Can you do it safely under those conditions? Sure, I'd be interested in trying many things. Although what I really want to do is to increase my serotonin. The ssri's work great for me for depression/ocd/anxiety...however, I get a terrible anger/irritability/agitation reaction from them (Dr. Amen says it's a temporal lobe issue)..... I've never tried taking something like tryptophan or 5htp (I've read so much contradictory stuff about those that I don't know what to believe...then again, I don't know if those substances end up getting converted in the brain to serotonin in significant amounts anyway.....I guess the only way is to just try them and see what happens....read something today that says don't take 5htp w/ antidepressants....please.
Posted by chris_masterjohn on October 30, 2003, at 9:00:55
In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by Blake G on September 2, 2003, at 21:57:23
Hi folks,
Someone recently brought pyroluria to my attention a week ago, and I've never seen anything that brings my symptoms together so thoroughly, nor describes so cleanly why the dietary changes which I've made over the last year and a half have caused the reversal of so many of my symptoms.
However, my doctor has never heard of pyroluria, and it's not on the list of tests he can run at the lab. We sent my urine in anyway with a note to check for pyrroles to see if the lab techs were familiar with it anyway, and we'll see what happens. I'm worried, if they do test, about false negatives, because I eat tons of zinc in my diet and have recently taken B6 in the last few days, and I've read that supplements should be stopped for two days before the test, but don't know the significance or accuracy of this.
I'm having trouble finding technical information, especially as regards diagnosis, and Medline has nothing on diagnosis whatsoever. If anyone could please point me to technical info especially on diagnosis I would greatly appreciate it.
Below is a message on why I believe I might have pyroluria, excerpted from another forum post I'd made.
Chris
________The reason I believe I might have pyroluria is that I've had teeth problems all my life and mental problems since my early teens. The latter (panic disorder, OCD, phobias) aggravated to nearly the point of psychosis after a year of being vegetarian. (read: deficient zinc and arachidonic acid) The introduction of n-3-enhanced eggs, (1 a day) fish, and fish oil did nothing for it (actually, it got worse), but my nearly daily panic attacks ceased almost immediately upon the introduction of daily beef into my diet, and 8 years of anxiety disorder complex disappeared after a month or so of dramatically increasing my egg(3-6/day), (raw)milk, cream, butter, red meat, and liver consumption (and I mean dramatically), which I was actually doing for my teeth. Speaking of teeth, I've had either congenital enamel displacement or fluorosis depending on the dentist, most of my life, and my tooth decay rate when I was a vegetarian went up astronomically, so that ONE dental appt yielded the diagnosis of 15 cavities and two root-infected teeth. After changing my diet I had 0 cavities in the following year and a half. I also had white spots on my fingernails, which are still there but much better. I've always had trouble sleeping, bad digestion, and poor dream recall, which are still significant problems. I have a tendency to have nightmares, which I've never seen listed, but seems related to trouble falling asleep. I've also had a problem with sudden explosions of anger, which are better now. Pyroluria seems to pull all these things together, and also explain why dramatic increases in red meat (zinc) egg (arachidonic acid), milk and milk fat (arachidonic acid, B6) and liver (zinc, B6, arachidonic acid), as well as soaked or sprouted whole grains (B6, and in oats GLA -->AA), reversed many of my symptoms and mitigated others somewhat. I'm hoping if I DO have pyroluria arranging my diet to further maximize my zinc, B6 and AA intake, decreasing my cod liver oil (n-3) intake, and possible supplementation if needed (B6 the most likely candidate), can help me optimize my health and normalize my other symptoms such as trouble sleeping. In the few days since discovering the existance of pyroluria I've increased my oyster (zinc) consumption, and have been supplementing with B6 at night, and I've fallen asleep much easier, and felt better with less sleep upon waking, and the other night had vivid dreams (I rarely "have" dreams, except nightmares occasionally). I have to wait and see if this program continues to work, because often times I find something will help me sleep, but it will lose its effectiveness after a week or two. If anyone can direct me to technical information of any kind, especially detailed information on diagnosis and the proper lab tests for both my own curiosity but more importantly to give to my doctor, I would greatly appreciate it. I can be emailed at [email protected]. If you email me privately, please put "pyroluria" somewhere in the subject line, preferably in caps, so I notice it. Thanks for any help! Chris
_____
Update:
It's been about a week now that I've been taking B6 in the form of pyrydoxine HCl, and I haven't yet had trouble sleeping, and I've on the whole felt better and more rested getting up in the morning, and woke up before my alarm clock a couple times. I've also been dreaming more, and apparently moving more in my sleep (My pillow came out from under me and fell off the bed last night)-- which I *think* would mean more REM sleep, and be positive, but I'm not sure (intuitively I could conceive of it being a negative effect).
____
I haven't read all the posts yet, but I do want to say on AA and n-3s, etc, that my personal experience is that n-3s in the form of algae-derived DHA, fish oil, or cod liver oil, seem not to have helped me, that I got signficantly worse while still a veggie but adding eggs fish and these supplements into my diet, and got far better after dramatically increasing my AA, so clearly for some people this works. I agree that most Americans have too much n-6 vs n-3, but this comes primarily from vegetable oils and grains, so I suspect that the damage primarily comes from competition with the scant n-3s for desaturase enzymes and deficiency of longer-chain n-3s, rather than overexpression of AA synthesis.Also, EPA interferes with the synthesis and activity of AA when it is pre-formed in the diet, so it IS sensible that some people with pyroluria or some other AA-deficiency would be worsened with EPA/DHA supplementation.
Finally, I agree with Lar that EPO is a relatively poor source for AA as it doesn't not contain AA but rather GLA; however, if, say, to make math easy, 10% of LA is converted to GLA and 10% of GLA is converted to DGLA and AA, than while GLA would be relatively poor, it would be 10 times more effective than LA, which is the main n-6 fat in the SAD I believe.
Thanks for any help,
Chris
Posted by chris_masterjohn on October 30, 2003, at 9:14:29
In reply to Re: Pyroluria » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on September 4, 2003, at 10:12:18
"However, after reading the links on pyrrole disorder, I got to thinking that my brain “feels good” when I eat foods high in arachadonic acid such as egg yolks and animal organ meats.
> >
> > Any comments?
> >
> > -- Ron
>
> Egg yolks and organ meats have a lot more in them than just arichadonic acid, Ron. I'd hesitate to jump to that conclusion. "------------>Exactly!
Egg yolks and organ meats are loaded with compounds that will help you including B vitamins, fatty acids, cholesterol, phospholipids, fat-soluble vitamins, etc. I'd emphasize getting clean organ meats and eggs preferably from pastured animals. Plus, eggs from pastured (not "free-range" but actual access to insects and whatnot) chickens are excellent source of DHA anyway, in addition to AA.
I don't have the time to battle all the junk science about cholesterol and saturated fat and animal fats in general causing heart disease and all that other rubbish, so forgive me if I decline to debate this but suffice it to say if you have pyroluria or probably any other mental problems organ meats and egg yolks are probably your ticket to health.
They certainly were mine. I was nearly psychotic and am more mentally healthy now than I've been since my early teens, thanks to my accidental cure of astronomically increasing my animal fat intake, including eggs and organ meats.
Chris
Posted by Ed O`Flaherty on November 4, 2003, at 15:23:57
In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by chris_masterjohn on October 30, 2003, at 9:14:29
Pyroluria is unusual in that if a person has pyroluric schizophrenia (27% of cases) then omega-3 fish oil seems to be unhelpful,even contraindicated.Primrose oil is useful instead.I have given the main symptoms and treatment in www.omega3.20megsfree.com/whats_new.html.If you know somebody with schizophrenia please read this
as you could change their life utterly by referring them on if they have these symptoms.
Posted by Ed O`Flaherty on November 15, 2005, at 18:04:40
In reply to Re: Pyroluria » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on September 4, 2003, at 10:12:18
This topic has not been updated for two years now and I thought it worthwhile to bring up the subject again.
I am a family doctor in Ireland and I do various tests on patients with psychiatric problems.Pyroluria is the easiest one to treat.It may manifest itself as depression,loss of libido,schizophrenia or bipolar,especially rapid cycling bipolar.Patients generally have about half of these symptoms: small stature, interested in spicy foods,being a night person,rarely dreaming except perhaps for nightmares, skipping breakfast,a hot temper,poor short term memory with a normal long-term memory,social isolation,sensitivity to light and loud noises,high anxiety,often diagnosed as dyslexia at school where reading can be a problem and dry skin.It is usually associated with low B6 and zinc deficiency and responds,sometimes very well and in a matter of weeks to B6,zinc,evening primrose oil and other antioxidants. A test for kryptopyrroles in the urine usually provides the diagnosis.
Posted by Nickengland on November 19, 2005, at 14:24:31
In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by Ed O`Flaherty on November 15, 2005, at 18:04:40
>It is usually associated with low B6 and zinc deficiency and responds,sometimes very well and in a matter of weeks to B6...
How much B6 is safe to take - if you're taking anticonvulsants and theres and interaction between B6, which stops the anticonvulsants from working so well? (Both anticonvulsants I take have an interaction with B6)
If I had to supplement with B6, as I tested positive - how would one get around that?
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by Ed O`Flaherty on November 19, 2005, at 16:35:34
In reply to Re: Pyroluria » Ed O`Flaherty, posted by Nickengland on November 19, 2005, at 14:24:31
Phenytoin and phenobarbital are known to interact with B6 resulting in less of the drugs being absorbed. That has been noted at doses as low as 80mg of B6. 2mg per day would be adequate for non-pyrolurics.You would probably be quite safe at 50mg B6 but you really should discuss it with your physician.
Posted by Nickengland on November 19, 2005, at 17:15:45
In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by Ed O`Flaherty on November 19, 2005, at 16:35:34
Many thanks for your reply,
The anticonvulsants I'm prescribed are Topamax (Topiramate) and Neurontin (Gabapentin) which i've read also have an interaction with B6. I've found I do gain benefits from B6 - but was also slightly concerned that it was reducing the effects of one of the drugs...That was taking just over 50mg of B6 including multivitamins / b complex and the single B6 supplement..
I'll check with my doctor and pharmacist to make sure - thanks again.
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by MoparFan91 on November 21, 2005, at 22:46:37
In reply to Re: Pyroluria » Ed O`Flaherty, posted by Nickengland on November 19, 2005, at 17:15:45
and it was not pretty....
Black Mania here I come!!!
J/KWell, I just got more anxious and agitated once I started back on the regular B6 supplements, and cycling & mixed states started to creep in again. I started to take things harder and stuff, and I felt more irrationally angry.
I'm afraid the B6 interacted with my Topamax. I was on 250mg of topamax at the time. I was having no problems before w/ agitation, anger, and anxiety. I started to raise the Topamax during this incident and I'm now at 300mg.
Upon stopping B6, the anxiety/agitation seems to have started ceasing.
So, yes, B6 can interact with anticonvulsant mood stabilizers and undo the effects of them.
I was taking P5P before and had no/minimal problems as far as I could tell. Try P5P form and see what happens.
Posted by Nickengland on November 22, 2005, at 12:04:33
In reply to Yes, there are interactions and it happened to me, posted by MoparFan91 on November 21, 2005, at 22:46:37
Hi MoparFan
You and me too! lol
You have just described more or less exactly what has been happening to me the past motnh or since I begain supplementing with B6..
I knew that something didn't seem quite right - for me it was more that I felt the Neurontin I take was losing its effectiveness and seeing as that generally makes me feel comfortable in my skin and I take it for anxiety....I was beoming more and more concerned about it not working!
I was getting benefits from the B6, albeit mild though compared to the medication. It never crossed my mind at the time that the topamax would be losing its effectivenes too (I was more concerned about the Neurontin) but come to think of it must have been having an effect on that too.
>Upon stopping B6, the anxiety/agitation seems to have started ceasing.
Good to hear that :-) Me too..
>So, yes, B6 can interact with anticonvulsant mood stabilizers and undo the effects of them.
Afew weks ago I posted about the B6 interaction and put these links up...it mentions folic acid too for Topamax, i'm not the exact tachinal details about the interaction though with Topamax, heres some brief information anyway..
http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshelf/drugs_interact/1,1748,740,00.html
This one is about Gabapentin (Neurontin) but still perhaps the interaction is of a similar nature with Topamax.
I think its safe to say everyday B6 that you would get from foods is fine, but large dosages - well me and you are both proof its not such a good idea! - abouve the 50mg perhaps 80mg and above..
Vitamin B6
One controlled study revealed that taking anticonvulsant drugs dramatically reduces blood levels of vitamin B6.26 A nutritional deficiency of vitamin B6 can lead to an increase in homocysteine blood levels, which has been associated with atherosclerosis. Vitamin B6 deficiency is also associated with symptoms such as dizziness, fatigue, mental depression, and seizures. On the other hand, supplementation with large amounts of vitamin B6 (80–200 mg per day) has been reported to reduce blood levels of some anticonvulsant drugs, which could theoretically trigger seizures. People taking multiple anticonvulsant drugs should discuss with their doctor whether supplementing with vitamin B6 is advisable.http://www.mothernature.com/Library/Ency/Index.cfm/Id/1390003#7
>I was taking P5P before and had no/minimal problems as far as I could tell. Try P5P form and see what happens.
Thanks :-) I'll look into it...
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by Jedi on November 23, 2005, at 3:33:34
In reply to Re: Pyroluria » Ed O`Flaherty, posted by Nickengland on November 19, 2005, at 17:15:45
MAOI users: It is possible that phenelzine(Nardil) and other hydrazine MAOIs can cause a deficiency of B6 in some people. The research is mixed on the subject.
JediJ Psychiatry Neurosci. 1994 Nov;19(5):332-4.
Phenelzine reduces plasma vitamin B6.
Malcolm DE, Yu PH, Bowen RC, O'Donovan C, Hawkes J, Hussein M.
Department of Psychiatry, Royal University Hospital, Saskatoon, Saskatchewan.Plasma levels of the active form of vitamin B6 (pyridoxal phosphate) in 19 patients taking phenelzine were found to be reduced on the average to approximately 54% of the value in a control group. There was no correlation of pyridoxal phosphate level with phenelzine daily dosage over the range of 30 mg to 90 mg. No symptoms of vitamin B6 deficiency peripheral neuropathy were found.
J Clin Psychopharmacol. 1989 Dec;9(6):428-31.
Phenelzine treatment of panic disorder: lack of effect on pyridoxal phosphate levels.
Lydiard RB, Laraia MT, Howell EF, Fossey MD, Reynolds RD, Ballenger JC.
Medical University of South Carolina, Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, Charleston 29425.Earlier reports indicated that phenelzine treatment may result in clinically significant reductions of vitamin B6 in some individuals. Sixteen subjects, ages 21-59 years (seven men, nine women) with panic disorder with or without agoraphobia were treated with an average of phenelzine 53.5 mg/day for an average of 10 weeks in an open treatment study. No significant effects on plasma levels of pyridoxal phosphate, the active form of vitamin B6, were discernible in this group, nor was there any clear relationship between pyridoxal phosphate levels and symptoms in the subgroup of five patients who did develop deficiency-type symptoms. Pyridoxine replacement had unclear effects in symptomatic patients.
Posted by Garnetldn on July 13, 2010, at 0:07:22
In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by Jedi on November 23, 2005, at 3:33:34
There is a new Pyrroluria List on Yahoo if anyone is interested in the topic. We have a good Links section to many articles and some who are patients of Dr Dietrich Klinghardt, well know for his Lyme in Austism protocol that includes testing for Pyrroluria.
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Pyrroluria/
Hope you can join us! Please pass this info on to anyone with symptoms of Pyrroluria which are similar to many dengerative conditions such as MCS, FM, CFS, ME, Depression, Panic-Anxiety, Mood Disorders, Sun Sensitivity, Oppositional Defiance, Tendency to Isolate, Agoraphobia, Cancer and Heart Disease.
Thanks so much !!
Garnet
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 13, 2010, at 8:31:50
In reply to Re: Pyroluria, posted by Garnetldn on July 13, 2010, at 0:07:22
> There is a new Pyrroluria List on Yahoo if anyone is interested in the topic.
Sorry to interrupt, but to consolidate discussion, I'd like now to redirect this thread to Psycho-Babble Alternative. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20100703/msgs/954134.html
Please do feel free to continue this discussion there, and in general to explore the other boards here.
That will be considered a different thread, however, so if you'd like to be notified by email of follow-ups to it, you'll need to request that there. Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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