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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by needesp on September 5, 2005, at 21:26:01
Hi, I have been reading this site for nearly 12 mths to look for insight in to how to help my son. I am his only support person.
My son is 21 years old and living at home along with his 2 younger brothers. He has OCD with associated depression and Social Phobia and over the last 18 mths we have been trying to find medication and therapy that will ease his suffering and stop periodic bouts of self medication with alcohol.
Three months ago he went into a clinic as an in-patient (5 week stay) and while there was raised to 300mgs Effexor and 60 mgs Avanza daily.
The first night home he started using Marijuana (he hadn’t touched MJ for 12 mths) and has used daily since (no alcohol at all though).We have talked about why he started the MJ and think that it was because he was afraid he would drink again. He was depressed and suicidal and angry when he drank (only once or twice a week but very intense episodes).
He came out of the clinic with some very real coping skills and for the first 6 weeks at home he was doing ok (social anxiety and depression reduced and OCD more under control) but even though he was doing ok he was increasing his daily MJ use!?
He smokes MJ at night from 5pm till betime and over the last 2 mths has increased from 1 gm a night (first 3 weeks) to 3 to 4 gms a night (last 4 weeks). Three weeks ago his depression/anxiety kicked back in and his OCD took off again, so last week his Effexor was increased to 375mgs.
My question is does the MJ interfere with his antidepressant medications?
I’m wondering if the recent return of the depression and increase in OCD symptoms is
1. the MJ finally saturated his body and is now interfering with his medication or 2. The MJ is causing its own negative side effects (especially once he increased to 3 gms a day) or 3. The medications aren’t working that well and his initial coping was trying to stay positive when he first came out.The MJ does help him cope at night (and stops him drinking) but the concern (not just mine but his as well) is that it is counterproductive to him getting somewhere i.e. causing apathy (let alone the apathy from his mediations) and depression.
Posted by sleepygirl on September 5, 2005, at 22:20:42
In reply to marijuana and antidepressants, posted by needesp on September 5, 2005, at 21:26:01
well I don't know if I can really be of any help to you, but as someone who smoked marijuana everyday for over a year I'll say that it definitely helped me with my anxiety ongoing, but NOW I find (and by the way I take effexor, seroquel and just stopped klonopin prior to the seroquel) that if I smoke marijuana it inevitably makes me anxious- it's nice while you're high, but makes me sort of panicky/irritable in the days following. I can't figure it, but it may have something to do with the disconnected feeling I experience. I'm sure someone here will have some insight into it, and I'll be glad to read it as well. I wish your son well. :-)
Posted by Declan on September 5, 2005, at 23:12:40
In reply to Re: marijuana and antidepressants, posted by sleepygirl on September 5, 2005, at 22:20:42
I wonder if he's smoking marijuana to make himself feel alive, mentally, spiritually.
I've not taken Effexor.
Declan
Posted by rainbowbrite on September 5, 2005, at 23:26:33
In reply to marijuana and antidepressants, posted by needesp on September 5, 2005, at 21:26:01
hello
I used to smoke regularly for years and I was also taking medication. I dont have experience with effexor and MJ but for me I am certain that the MJ affected my reaction to my drugs. I remember feeling more irritable and not right. I stopped smoking eventually and made the connection after the fact but in my experience certain medications do NOT work well along side MJ.
Posted by needesp on September 5, 2005, at 23:38:39
In reply to Re: marijuana and antidepressants, posted by sleepygirl on September 5, 2005, at 22:20:42
> well I don't know if I can really be of any help to you, but as someone who smoked marijuana everyday for over a year I'll say that it definitely helped me with my anxiety ongoing, but NOW I find (and by the way I take effexor, seroquel and just stopped klonopin prior to the seroquel) that if I smoke marijuana it inevitably makes me anxious- it's nice while you're high, but makes me sort of panicky/irritable in the days following. I can't figure it, but it may have something to do with the disconnected feeling I experience. I'm sure someone here will have some insight into it, and I'll be glad to read it as well. I wish your son well. :-)
I feel like I know so many of you guys because I have been reading this board for 12 mths now!!! Your encouragement and support of each other astounds me. Thankyou so much for replying. I got such a feeling of happiness when I saw people had responded!
My son also is irritable the next day particularly just before he begins at 5pm (he's edgy to be around and with the depression back he is prone to agitation) which I guess is the MJ need knocking at the door! He says his OCD has locked onto the habit and I know he is torn between trying to stop and see if his medications are working without it and his fear that if they are not he will drink again.
How did you cut back on your usage? was it the medications working that enabled you to break the daily habit?
Posted by Declan on September 5, 2005, at 23:43:34
In reply to Re: marijuana and antidepressants, posted by needesp on September 5, 2005, at 23:38:39
Hey needesp, did I understand you right that your son restarted marijuana immediately he started Effexor. Because if he did....
Maybe he finds Effexor numbing, do you think?
Declan
Posted by needesp on September 5, 2005, at 23:57:54
In reply to Re: marijuana and antidepressants, posted by Declan on September 5, 2005, at 23:12:40
> I wonder if he's smoking marijuana to make himself feel alive, mentally, spiritually.
> I've not taken Effexor.
> DeclanHi Declan, I believe it is the opposite and that he is smoking MJ to escape and not feel so much and because of the underlying fear that he will drink again if he stops. He smokes it alone in his room at night. The MJ in the evening has stopped him from being able to go out with me or his older brother (when he visits) to say dinner and the movies. Being stoned makes him paranoid when he leaves the home!
We are hoping that the increase in Effexor to 375mgs will help with the breakthrough depression and OCD. He is also continuing to go once a week to a day clinic program. I know that worrying (his and or mine)about his MJ usage makes his OCD run riot. Thats why I have taken my worries to you guys.
Posted by needesp on September 6, 2005, at 0:34:38
In reply to Re: marijuana and antidepressants, posted by Declan on September 5, 2005, at 23:43:34
> Hey needesp, did I understand you right that your son restarted marijuana immediately he started Effexor. Because if he did....
> Maybe he finds Effexor numbing, do you think?
> DeclanNo he was on 150 mgs of Effexor and 15mgs Avanza for 6 weeks before he went into the clinic (he wasn't being helped at those dosages - OCD and resistant depression need higher doses!). He was put on 300mgs Effexor and 60mgs Avanza (doubled overnight!) for the last 4 weeks of his stay in the clinic. He had no side effects when he came out (heaps for the first 2 weeks he was on this high dosage)but was still having some depressed days. The depression lifted at the 7 week mark on the higher dosages and his social phobia was non existant at the 8 week mark (his OCD was still there but not as bad). But at 11 weeks on the higher dosages he started to have breakthrough depression and his OCD was escalating again. So at the 13 week mark on the higher dosages the Psych upped his Effexor to 375mgs.
Posted by TheMagicPill on September 6, 2005, at 1:52:03
In reply to Re: marijuana and antidepressants, posted by needesp on September 6, 2005, at 0:34:38
i have never smoked grass but ppl who have tell me it is very relaxing.
for starters, i think your son needs to know that there are a lot of other people his age suffering from the same things he is and more. in other words, he is not alone. this is epidemic and many ppl in here are around his game. me, 35.
he also need to get into a routine. he needs something positive to do. that will get his mind off himself. prayers, michael
Posted by Colleen D. on September 6, 2005, at 6:41:33
In reply to marijuana and antidepressants, posted by needesp on September 5, 2005, at 21:26:01
Hi!
I have been on Effexor for over a year and it has helped me immensely with depression and anxiety. I find that when I add MJ to the equation I get extremely paranoid and more socially phobic. In the past I used MJ frequently and I have had to stop it to let my meds work. (I am also on Klonopin for anxiety.)
Best wishes,
Colleen
MDD, OCD, GAD and SP
Posted by blueberry on September 6, 2005, at 15:58:58
In reply to marijuana and antidepressants, posted by needesp on September 5, 2005, at 21:26:01
I think marijuana and psychiatric meds combined is very dangerous, not in the short run, but in the long run. The good high and relaxation experienced early in use eventually turns into other weird psychiatric conditions later on. It might takes months or even a couple years, but eventually the goodness turns into evilness.
Cannabis affects a whole array of receptors in the brain, including dopamine, norepinephrine, GABA, opioids, and cannabinoids, and who knows what else.
When we take a psychiatric medication for a long time, it causes changes in the brain over time...either receptor downregulation, receptor upregulation, receptor supersensitivy, increased or decreased density of receptors, or whatever. Marijuana for occassional recreation won't do that, but with chronic use will change many things in the brain. And then the meds we're taking can't work right.
Best thing to do would be to somehow someway get him off of marijuana, get him through the short depression that will follow, and then stay clean. Or pay a hefty price later on down the road, a much heftier load than you are bearing right now.
Posted by TexasChic on September 8, 2005, at 17:05:25
In reply to marijuana and antidepressants, posted by needesp on September 5, 2005, at 21:26:01
In my experience, I've found that the more often you smoke, the more it takes to get high. Whenever I have gone on smoking binges, I eventually have to stop and get it out of my system before it will work for me again. So I think that's the reason for the increase rather than his emotional state. As for it interfering, MJ is a drug just like any other drug. But since its illegal, the testing has not been done (or can't be published) that would tell us how it may or may not effect the performance of other drugs. So we just don't know. It may be bad for you, or it may be a wonder drug. We just have no way of knowing.
The thing is, it sounds like your son is using it as an escape (that's how it works for me). That means he's not dealing with his problems, he's pushing them aside. Of course if you have an illness that makes life unbearable, maybe being high is an acceptable alternative. But when I stop smoking, I always realized how much I was missing out on. I'm still using the escape route myself, but with alcohol. But I'm working on it. I want to actually 'live' my life, not just float through it.
Don't give up hope. Its an illness, but since the symptoms are emotional, its difficult for other people to understand. You sound like you're doing everything you can to help your son, and I know that's hard. You have my upmost admiration.
Posted by needesp on September 8, 2005, at 18:25:04
In reply to Re: marijuana and antidepressants, posted by TexasChic on September 8, 2005, at 17:05:25
> In my experience, I've found that the more often you smoke, the more it takes to get high. Whenever I have gone on smoking binges, I eventually have to stop and get it out of my system before it will work for me again. So I think that's the reason for the increase rather than his emotional state.
I think this is right on the button!
As for it interfering, MJ is a drug just like any other drug. But since its illegal, the testing has not been done (or can't be published) that would tell us how it may or may not effect the performance of other drugs. So we just don't know. It may be bad for you, or it may be a wonder drug. We just have no way of knowing.
I know.... this is so frustrating I have tried to look up info in peer reviewed academic articles (final year psychology student myself) and there is so little (if any) information that is useful. That is why I have asked you guys (you all must know better than anyone how you feel!)
>
> The thing is, it sounds like your son is using it as an escape (that's how it works for me). That means he's not dealing with his problems, he's pushing them aside. Of course if you have an illness that makes life unbearable, maybe being high is an acceptable alternative.
I know his usage is freedom from negative rumination and escape and who am I or anyone to deny him relief! The other problem is that his OCD has caught onto the usage (its become a ritual which makes it a double bunger if he wants to try and stop (to see if he still feels bad)i.e. dependence on MJ and OCD dependence on the ritual of using MJBut when I stop smoking, I always realized how much I was missing out on. I'm still using the escape route myself, but with alcohol. But I'm working on it. I want to actually 'live' my life, not just float through it.
My son was using alcohol before and again it was to escape the agitated depression/negative rumination/OCD catastrophic thoughts
>
> Don't give up hope. Its an illness, but since the symptoms are emotional, its difficult for other people to understand. You sound like you're doing everything you can to help your son, and I know that's hard. You have my upmost admiration.Thankyou, I feel so helpless/useless at times, I want to take his suffering away but all I can do is support and keep hope alive. My biggest mistake is seeing him worry about something, knowing that he knows that I know he is concerned and then talking about it with him! Its a catch 22 situation (This just sends his OCD through the roof!) Thats why I have come to this board.
Posted by Sebastian on September 9, 2005, at 13:06:25
In reply to Re: marijuana and antidepressants, posted by blueberry on September 6, 2005, at 15:58:58
Is it just marijuana and antidepressants. Or could it also be marijuana and anti-psychotic meds. I did that mix for several years. The antidepressant one is a new mix for me. Your mesage is scary. Because I've needed these meds for so long now. Wonder if marijuana is my total problem?
Posted by needesp on September 9, 2005, at 18:27:30
In reply to Re: marijuana and antidepressants, posted by Sebastian on September 9, 2005, at 13:06:25
> Is it just marijuana and antidepressants. Or could it also be marijuana and anti-psychotic meds. I did that mix for several years. The antidepressant one is a new mix for me. Your mesage is scary. Because I've needed these meds for so long now. Wonder if marijuana is my total problem?
HI Sebastian,
I'm sorry my message worried you (I don't think the MJ is the main concern just a mix in his scenario...it helps my son relax and escape his worries). my post was just to try and find out if any one knew how MJ might interact with antidepressants. The thing is the antidepressants may start to work better now he has increased the dose. I guess I'm thinking that if/when the prescribed medications work ok he won't meed the MJ (or not as much anyway).
How much MJ do you do and is it daily? What is your diagnosis?
all the best
from needesp (just a loving mum!)
Posted by Sebastian on September 9, 2005, at 18:48:26
In reply to Re: marijuana and antidepressants, posted by needesp on September 9, 2005, at 18:27:30
Not much MJ, but yes daily. I drink too. You are right more meds can take the place of it.
Posted by TexasChic on September 9, 2005, at 19:22:26
In reply to Re: marijuana and antidepressants, posted by needesp on September 8, 2005, at 18:25:04
> I know his usage is freedom from negative rumination and escape and who am I or anyone to deny him relief!
In my opinion, that is a wonderful mindset. People can get so hung up on the fact that its illegal, and never think to stop and consider if it 'should' be illegal. I feel its just like prohibition, only its organic, and alcohol is man made. The fact that you can be happy that this gives him relief, without judging him, is so nice to hear. Now I'm not saying to give up now and leave it as is. Of course his life would be better if he could function without pot. But if there is no viable alternative for him at the moment, its the best you can do. What the doctors give him don't work. So he's self medicating. Its not uncommon (unfortunately).
> The other problem is that his OCD has caught onto the usage (its become a ritual which makes it a double bunger if he wants to try and stop (to see if he still feels bad)i.e. dependence on MJ and OCD dependence on the ritual of using MJ
I also have OCD, although mildly (my therapist says I have some 'OCD qualities'). OCD is basically an anxiety condition taken to the extreme. I have a tendency, when stressed at work, to line up all the icons on my computer until they're perfectly symetrical. It somehow gives me relief. I guess it makes me feel in control of something. Recently I''ve been told that it's being said about me that all I do is move my icons around all day (someone obviously saw me doing it). Its hard, because people don't understand. They think I'm goofing off, when really I'm enabling myself to get through the day.
> Thankyou, I feel so helpless/useless at times, I want to take his suffering away but all I can do is support and keep hope alive. My biggest mistake is seeing him worry about something, knowing that he knows that I know he is concerned and then talking about it with him! Its a catch 22 situation (This just sends his OCD through the roof!) Thats why I have come to this board.
>
Get help whereever you can. You can't do this alone. If you aren't seeing a therapist, I think you should. You don't have to be the troubled one to benefit from it.I wish you luck. I know you are doing the absolute best you can, and that is all you can do.
Posted by needesp on September 9, 2005, at 20:26:40
In reply to Re: marijuana and antidepressants, posted by TexasChic on September 9, 2005, at 19:22:26
> > I know his usage is freedom from negative rumination and escape and who am I or anyone to deny him relief!
>
> In my opinion, that is a wonderful mindset. People can get so hung up on the fact that its illegal, and never think to stop and consider if it 'should' be illegal. I feel its just like prohibition, only its organic, and alcohol is man made. The fact that you can be happy that this gives him relief, without judging him, is so nice to hear. Now I'm not saying to give up now and leave it as is. Of course his life would be better if he could function without pot. But if there is no viable alternative for him at the moment, its the best you can do. What the doctors give him don't work. So he's self medicating. Its not uncommon (unfortunately).
>
> > The other problem is that his OCD has caught onto the usage (its become a ritual which makes it a double bunger if he wants to try and stop (to see if he still feels bad)i.e. dependence on MJ and OCD dependence on the ritual of using MJ
>
> I also have OCD, although mildly (my therapist says I have some 'OCD qualities'). OCD is basically an anxiety condition taken to the extreme. I have a tendency, when stressed at work, to line up all the icons on my computer until they're perfectly symetrical. It somehow gives me relief. I guess it makes me feel in control of something. Recently I''ve been told that it's being said about me that all I do is move my icons around all day (someone obviously saw me doing it). Its hard, because people don't understand. They think I'm goofing off, when really I'm enabling myself to get through the day.
>
> > Thankyou, I feel so helpless/useless at times, I want to take his suffering away but all I can do is support and keep hope alive. My biggest mistake is seeing him worry about something, knowing that he knows that I know he is concerned and then talking about it with him! Its a catch 22 situation (This just sends his OCD through the roof!) Thats why I have come to this board.
> >
> Get help whereever you can. You can't do this alone. If you aren't seeing a therapist, I think you should. You don't have to be the troubled one to benefit from it.
>
> I wish you luck. I know you are doing the absolute best you can, and that is all you can do.Hi,
Your post was so supportive!! I am getting help for myself because I need to be strong to be there for him (and my concern watching his struggles trips over into anxiety - I remain calm with him but inside I feel my heart pounding!). I would never judge him, he is trying his best and I stand in awe of his perseverance and courage.
Thanyou
all the best to you too
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