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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 5 to 29 of 29. Go back in thread:
Posted by Maxime on March 30, 2005, at 23:17:44
In reply to Re: so I dug right down to the bottom of my soul ., posted by Racer on March 30, 2005, at 22:37:07
Um. I wish you would come to the doctor with me. I wish someone would. Because if I suggest these things I am a hypochondriac. If other people suggest them, they are insightful. I have totally considered that there is something wrong with my adrenal glands. I haven't had any tests done. I am scared to suggest these things because I will be seen as a hypochondriac. When I went to the endocrinologist my TSH was 25. Normal is 2-3. I already knew that I was hypothyroid. But when I told him my symptoms and how awful I felt he said
"you know, whenever someone feels bad they automatically think it's their thyroid. You know, everyone feels exhausted and depressed sometimes." (yes but doctor, my TSH is 25. It's my thyroid.)As an aside, my endo has a small collection of ducks on his desk. I asked him if he thought it was a good idea to have these ducks on his desk. "What? What's wrong with ducks?". "Quack?" I hinted softly. Long pause. He said "NO ONE has ever pointed that out to me! After today THE DUCKS are HISTORY!". All this in his Montreal-Italian accent.
> Catharsis, maybe? That you've cried out what was there to be cried, and now you have that exhaustion that follows?
>
> By the way, I was thinking about you today, and what you've said about restricting but not losing weight, but it not being hypothyroid because you're already getting that treated? Could it be something to do with your adrenal glands? Have you had any testing done for how that system is functioning?
>
> (Yes, I do have a TV, but it only triggered it for me. I actually told my husband what it would be pretty early on...)
Posted by Maxime on March 30, 2005, at 23:33:49
In reply to Re: please help ... tell me what is going on, posted by Maxime on March 30, 2005, at 23:01:46
> I don't like this. Am I going cycle into another mood. I am scared of what lies ahead. This hasn't happened before. I wish I wasn't alone.
>
> MaximeI'm sorry for taking up so much space on the board. I started taking Desipramine a few days ago. Yesterday I took 75 mg (doctor's instruction) and today the same (although I don't think anything I took today stayed in me).
Is the Desipramine making me feel or "not feel" like this?
Maxime
Posted by Maxime on March 31, 2005, at 1:58:05
In reply to Re: please help ... tell me what is going on, posted by Maxime on March 30, 2005, at 23:33:49
Well I really appreciate everyone's help on this one.
But don't worry ... I have figured it out. It's rock bottom. I'm entering the catatonic stage of depression that I have gone through only twice before.So this is it. This is where I am.
Bye.
Maxime
Posted by SLS on March 31, 2005, at 6:27:33
In reply to Re: please help ... tell me what is going on, posted by Maxime on March 30, 2005, at 23:33:49
Be patient, Maxime.
You might not reap the rewards of desipramine until you are taking at least 150mg for a month or so.
If what you are feeling or not feeling did not appear until after you started desipramine, I would think that your experience is likely to be a passing startup side effect. Some people feel that it is sedating in the beginning and then mildly activating later.
Be patient and try to think in terms months rather than days or weeks to give a drug a fair trial. Take it and then forget about it as much as possible.
Be a patient patient.
"The wisdom of patience is knowing that one must give Time time to work"
EASIER SAID THAN DONE!!!
- Scott
Posted by banga on March 31, 2005, at 9:09:23
In reply to Re: please help ... tell me what is going on » Maxime, posted by SLS on March 31, 2005, at 6:27:33
I'm so sorry you are having such a bad time!! Please hang in there!!
I am taking desipramine along with other meds and I have found it very helpful. We are all of course different but SLS is right, it maybe just a stage of your body getting used to the med--though I am sure you already know that, you have been through so much...
It is so heavy at the bottom, I have been in a similar place, been in the hospital for it and incapacitated to work. though i would never claim I know exactly how you feel. Please hang in there, with time I did manage to pull myself out of that pit. Now with the help of medication (primarily the Abilify I think, though each piece seems to give me something) I marvel each day that my day does not consist of trying to resist a constant, magnetic like pull downwards into depression. How can one be so full of pain, yet so very empty at the same time. Then, at some point, I felt like someone suddenly put solid ground under my feet, the pull downward stopped. I almost feel like I need to jump up and down, to feel the solidity of the ground. I do have moments--but only moments!! of darkness, and anxiety (though really I SHOULD feel anxious, with a dissertation hanging over my head)but these are moments, not days or weeks of agony in pain and despair.
Do keep sharing with us, I would like to help out.
B.
Posted by Racer on March 31, 2005, at 14:17:38
In reply to Re: so I dug right down to the bottom of my soul ., posted by Maxime on March 30, 2005, at 23:17:44
> As an aside, my endo has a small collection of ducks on his desk. I asked him if he thought it was a good idea to have these ducks on his desk. "What? What's wrong with ducks?". "Quack?" I hinted softly. Long pause. He said "NO ONE has ever pointed that out to me! After today THE DUCKS are HISTORY!". All this in his Montreal-Italian accent.
>
>
That's TOO funny! That's absolutely hysterical! Thank you for telling us that one!As for the other part, yeah, you know what the problem is? It's that Y chromosome. In most cases -- SLS is a great example -- there are no problems. In rare cases, though, there is a high correlation between a Y related condition that causes contempt for women and the uncontrollable urge to go to medical school.
That's not actually meant to be side splittingly funny. I'm so bitter about that issue myself that, if I don't try to be a bit flip about it, I'll smash a brick through the monitor screen, you know?
Although I do loath myself for doing it, the only solution I've tried to this that has had anything like a positive outcome is that damned fluff brained bit: "Oh, doctor, I read this and didn't understand it at all because I'm not a big, strong doctor like you -- could you read it and explain to me why this isn't the solution to my problem? I'm sure it's not, or you would already have explored it, after all..." I can't tell you how much I hate doing it -- the only way I can stand it is to remind myself that as much as I loath myself for lowering myself to those levels, it doesn't touch on the contempt I feel for male doctors who will only respond to women who approach them in that manner.
(Gotta say, though, it does work better than what happens once I get frustrated and remind them that it's much easier to get into medical school than to veterinary school; or that half of all doctors did NOT graduate in the top 50% of their class... Maybe it's not "hypochondria" they're thinking of when they see me, it's "hypersarcastia"?)
I wish I could come with you to your doctor's appointment, too. If I could, I'd do my best to make you heard. (Maybe clean out his ears?)
Let's try this, though: how about going over your physical symptoms again -- on the health board is probably best -- and seeing if we can narrow down the specific issues that point to adrenal dysfunction? Maybe that would help? (Or, since some symptoms consistent with those disorders can be kinda personal, you can babblemail me if that's better?)
Posted by Phillipa on March 31, 2005, at 20:32:02
In reply to Re: so I dug right down to the bottom of my soul ., posted by Racer on March 31, 2005, at 14:17:38
Maxime, I Love the Duck story, it made me laugh, and I'm not supposed to as i had a yes, a facelift today and look as if I've been through a war. I am not wealthy, but took the money out of my meager savings in an attempt to gain back the l0 years I've lost and maybe helping get back into the job market if possible. As an RN that will be hard as there have been so many changes, and i don't if i could handle it anyway. Sorry to say so much about myself. Your mood. Ever since July I have felt the same way with no feelings and the inability to cry. I attributed it to emotional burnout I thought also Adrenal burnout. I'd even theorized that maybe I'm not depessed anymore. But you are making me wonder as we both also have hypothyroidism that tests normal. I definitely agree that there need to be more women doctors as men dismiss your symptoms as complaints. Hence valiums's popularity in the sixty's as Mothers little helper. Not all, but a lot of them just chalk it up to hormones. But what about after menapause? I too, would love to be present at your doctors appointment. We could all come at him at once. Power in numbers. Well, as I am "under the influence [percocet] please, if I've said anything inappropriate or wierd forgive me. It has taken me forever to even post this. My heart goes out to you Maxime, I know you are suffering, but one thing I do know is correct, Racer, Banga, and Scott's posts have been very informative and hopeful. Please see the hope in them. I care, even if I can't type now. Love, Phillipa
Posted by Maxime on April 1, 2005, at 0:48:35
In reply to Re: please help ... tell me what is going on » Maxime, posted by SLS on March 31, 2005, at 6:27:33
"Patience, n. A minor form of dispair, disguised as a virtue."
- Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary, 1911People are telling me that the Desipramine might bring out my hypomania. Is that true?
I don't expect miracles or anything to happen overnight. I just don't like what I am NOT feeling right now. I'm used to feeling everything ... sensory overload. Now I feel nothing. It feels like the calm before the storm.
Maxime
> Be patient, Maxime.
>
> You might not reap the rewards of desipramine until you are taking at least 150mg for a month or so.
>
> If what you are feeling or not feeling did not appear until after you started desipramine, I would think that your experience is likely to be a passing startup side effect. Some people feel that it is sedating in the beginning and then mildly activating later.
>
> Be patient and try to think in terms months rather than days or weeks to give a drug a fair trial. Take it and then forget about it as much as possible.
>
> Be a patient patient.
>
> "The wisdom of patience is knowing that one must give Time time to work"
>
> EASIER SAID THAN DONE!!!
>
>
> - Scott
>
>
>
>
Posted by Maxime on April 1, 2005, at 0:51:52
In reply to Re: please help ... tell me what is going on, posted by banga on March 31, 2005, at 9:09:23
Banga, thanks for your support and encouragement. What is your dissertation on?
Maxime
> I'm so sorry you are having such a bad time!! Please hang in there!!
> I am taking desipramine along with other meds and I have found it very helpful. We are all of course different but SLS is right, it maybe just a stage of your body getting used to the med--though I am sure you already know that, you have been through so much...
> It is so heavy at the bottom, I have been in a similar place, been in the hospital for it and incapacitated to work. though i would never claim I know exactly how you feel. Please hang in there, with time I did manage to pull myself out of that pit. Now with the help of medication (primarily the Abilify I think, though each piece seems to give me something) I marvel each day that my day does not consist of trying to resist a constant, magnetic like pull downwards into depression. How can one be so full of pain, yet so very empty at the same time. Then, at some point, I felt like someone suddenly put solid ground under my feet, the pull downward stopped. I almost feel like I need to jump up and down, to feel the solidity of the ground. I do have moments--but only moments!! of darkness, and anxiety (though really I SHOULD feel anxious, with a dissertation hanging over my head)but these are moments, not days or weeks of agony in pain and despair.
> Do keep sharing with us, I would like to help out.
> B.
Posted by banga on April 1, 2005, at 1:25:48
In reply to Re: please help ... tell me what is going on » banga, posted by Maxime on April 1, 2005, at 0:51:52
It is a validation study of a psychology test... One of those ironies of life--my own field of study, and then I become very ill myself...and no I didnt enter the field to solve my own issues!--I was from the start truly and foremost intrigued by tests.
Posted by Maxime on April 1, 2005, at 1:44:08
In reply to Re: please help ... tell me what is going on » Maxime, posted by banga on April 1, 2005, at 1:25:48
> It is a validation study of a psychology test... One of those ironies of life--my own field of study, and then I become very ill myself...and no I didnt enter the field to solve my own issues!--I was from the start truly and foremost intrigued by tests.
Is the test for adults or for children? What does the test measure? Did you have any trouble getting ethics approval?
I'm not saying you are in it for the money BUT psych testing is in demand so once you are done you will be in demand. Do you have you have to go through a chartering process after your Phd?
Congrats on getting this far!
Maxi
Posted by banga on April 1, 2005, at 2:28:15
In reply to Re: please help ... tell me what is going on » banga, posted by Maxime on April 1, 2005, at 1:44:08
> > It is a validation study of a psychology test... One of those ironies of life--my own field of study, and then I become very ill myself...and no I didnt enter the field to solve my own issues!--I was from the start truly and foremost intrigued by tests.
>
> Is the test for adults or for children? What does the test measure? Did you have any trouble getting ethics approval?
>
> I'm not saying you are in it for the money BUT psych testing is in demand so once you are done you will be in demand. Do you have you have to go through a chartering process after your Phd?
>
> Congrats on getting this far!
>
> MaxiReally, dont congratulate me yet! as I sit here staring dumbly at the computer, stacks of articlas engulfing me...it is an adult instrument for psychopathology, I had to submit a very lenghty description of the study and all the measures I will take to ensure participants are not scarred for life....more of a pain than anything else. I do not envy those who must do this for a medication trial...
What is chartering?
Posted by Maxime on April 1, 2005, at 2:59:00
In reply to Re: please help ... tell me what is going on, posted by banga on April 1, 2005, at 2:28:15
In Canada just because you have you Phd in Psychology doesn't mean you can practice psychology. You have to be chartered. So you take an exam. Many people fail it the first time. I guess it is the equivalent of taking the Bar. Quebec and Alberta are the only two Provinces where you get chartered without a PHd.
If you find yourself looking at a blank screen started writing as though you were writing to a friend. Or turn to pencil and paper. Then at least you have something written. I had to do that for my Masters Thesis which was over 250 pages when I finished! Eeek!
Good luck Banga!
Maxime
> > > It is a validation study of a psychology test... One of those ironies of life--my own field of study, and then I become very ill myself...and no I didnt enter the field to solve my own issues!--I was from the start truly and foremost intrigued by tests.
> >
> > Is the test for adults or for children? What does the test measure? Did you have any trouble getting ethics approval?
> >
> > I'm not saying you are in it for the money BUT psych testing is in demand so once you are done you will be in demand. Do you have you have to go through a chartering process after your Phd?
> >
> > Congrats on getting this far!
> >
> > Maxi
>
> Really, dont congratulate me yet! as I sit here staring dumbly at the computer, stacks of articlas engulfing me...it is an adult instrument for psychopathology, I had to submit a very lenghty description of the study and all the measures I will take to ensure participants are not scarred for life....more of a pain than anything else. I do not envy those who must do this for a medication trial...
> What is chartering?
>
Posted by Justy on April 1, 2005, at 12:20:55
In reply to Re: please help ... tell me what is going on, posted by Maxime on April 1, 2005, at 2:59:00
Maxime, my heart goes out to you. I know what it's like to have the uncontrollable crying. I once cryed for 10 hours straight. I could not control it. I ended up in a crisis centre where I met the pdoc who is treating me now. He has been a godsend. We discuss different meds all the time. Can you find another doctor who will be more supportive of you and who treats you as an articulate, intelligent person. You have the right to that.
I'm so sorry for the pain you're going through and I wish you all the best.
Posted by Racer on April 1, 2005, at 14:01:47
In reply to Re: please help ... tell me what is going on » Maxime, posted by banga on April 1, 2005, at 1:25:48
Totally off topic -- you got a problem with that?
Have you read "Cult of Personality", by Annie Murphy Paul? That's high on my list - although my stack of books-to-be-read is so high right now that I am not sure I'll get through it this decade, so we're talking relative terms -- after hearing her interviewed on NPR a few months ago.
Which test?
Posted by banga on April 1, 2005, at 15:30:08
In reply to Re: please help ... tell me what is going on » banga, posted by Racer on April 1, 2005, at 14:01:47
LOL I haven't read it, it is probably banned literature in our school. Kidding.
I will have to look into it. One thing I will say immediately is that tests are indeed often misused--they always should be seen as providing adjunct information, not the end-all to understand the subject of study. They provide theories and some evidence, not absolute truths when examined at the level of the individual. Used correctly they can be amazing. Used and abused they can be misleading.
I work with the MMPI, SII and CPI in studying structure of personality.
Posted by Maxime on April 1, 2005, at 16:02:33
In reply to Re: please help ... tell me what is going on, posted by Justy on April 1, 2005, at 12:20:55
Thanks. The crying has stopped. Everything has. I don't feel anything.
No I can't see another doctor. Mental health care is sectorised in my city and you have to see the pdoc in your postal code area.
I guess I could move ...
Maxime
> Maxime, my heart goes out to you. I know what it's like to have the uncontrollable crying. I once cryed for 10 hours straight. I could not control it. I ended up in a crisis centre where I met the pdoc who is treating me now. He has been a godsend. We discuss different meds all the time. Can you find another doctor who will be more supportive of you and who treats you as an articulate, intelligent person. You have the right to that.
>
> I'm so sorry for the pain you're going through and I wish you all the best.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 2, 2005, at 9:00:50
In reply to Re: please help ... tell me what is going on, posted by banga on April 1, 2005, at 15:30:08
> tests are indeed often misused--they always should be seen as providing adjunct information, not the end-all to understand the subject of study...
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding personality tests to Psycho-Babble Psychology. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20050329/msgs/478842.html
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by banga on April 2, 2005, at 11:08:51
In reply to Redirect: personality tests, posted by Dr. Bob on April 2, 2005, at 9:00:50
Sorry Bob! Will check out the psychology space...
Posted by Maxime on April 2, 2005, at 16:30:55
In reply to Re: Redirect: personality tests » Dr. Bob, posted by banga on April 2, 2005, at 11:08:51
Sorry my fault. I was the one who kept asking about your research.
Maxime
Posted by banga on April 2, 2005, at 16:47:03
In reply to Re: Redirect: personality tests, posted by Maxime on April 2, 2005, at 16:30:55
Glad you are interested!
Working as we speak...though I am tired. I think I am developing the usual tolerance to Adderall....I am slower and making type-os.
How are you doing today?
Posted by Maxime on April 2, 2005, at 18:20:04
In reply to Re: Thats ok! » Maxime, posted by banga on April 2, 2005, at 16:47:03
> Glad you are interested!
> Working as we speak...though I am tired. I think I am developing the usual tolerance to Adderall....I am slower and making type-os.
> How are you doing today?I feel like I am dying a slow death. I ache all over and have a fever. I used Dexedrine this morning because I had to go out with my mom and it made me so drowsy. Even my asthma is bad. I'm only 36 and yet I feel like I am 80! I see my GP on the 6th. I hate going in and giving such vague and whinning symptoms. Actually I feel so sick, that today I have FORCED myself to eat which is killing me mentally. I feel like each little morsel is going to plant itself on my butt and belly.
I guess you must be sorry you asked ... :)
((( Banga ))) You are such a sweetie.
Maxime
Posted by banga on April 2, 2005, at 18:45:35
In reply to Re: Thats ok!, posted by Maxime on April 2, 2005, at 18:20:04
> I feel like I am dying a slow death. I ache all over and have a fever. I used Dexedrine this morning because I had to go out with my mom and it made me so drowsy. Even my asthma is bad. I'm only 36 and yet I feel like I am 80! I see my GP on the 6th. I hate going in and giving such vague and whinning symptoms. Actually I feel so sick, that today I have FORCED myself to eat which is killing me mentally. I feel like each little morsel is going to plant itself on my butt and belly.
>
> I guess you must be sorry you asked ... :)
>
> ((( Banga ))) You are such a sweetie.
>
> Maxime: ) No I didn't ask to get the "Im fine" line, I do feel concerned and want the truth..I wonder how the Dexedrine resulted in drowsiness...I do feel as though we toy with what we do not understand with meds, dont you? So complex, but they end up being a necessary gamble for many people. Benadryl will get me high one day, yet act as a downer the next. Go figure.
I can relate about going to doctors with vague complaints and aches, I noted they feel so much better by labelling you neurotic ( I mean "you" generally of course, not you specifically :) --they are doctors and it is a blow to the ego if they cant solve something. Very unempowering if they have to admit they believe you but cannot help you.
And if it does not show up on a blood test, it doesnt exist, it is all in your head. You can tell them, cite the source even, that (for instance) anemia is the *last* symptom of B12 deficiency--neurological symptoms/damage occur *before* it shows up on blood tests...but that wasnt taught in med school so they dont believe it...
I was moved to hit this particular doctor when she looked at my blood test, gave me a look of pity and asked in a very 'gentle, supportive voice' "...are you SURE the psychotherapy is going well for you?"
...but now I am projecting, maybe you have a better doctor....
Posted by Pfinstegg on April 3, 2005, at 13:26:43
In reply to Re: Thats ok!, posted by Maxime on April 2, 2005, at 18:20:04
I noticed that you said your TSH is 24! That is so high. The newer guidelines, especially when there is depression associated, which there usually is, is that a TSH above 3 should be treated. And you should take the replacement as a combination of Synthroid (T4) and Cytomel (T3), in case your own body does not convert T4 to T3 efficiently. T3 can help a lot with depression.
Before you start studying your adrenals, I'd INSIST on treatment to get your TSH down to below 3- between 0.5 and 1.0 is considered optimal for depression. On those doses, you have to monitor for osteoporosis. It's smart to take 1500 mg of Calcium and 300 of Magnesium, anyway, but you may want to consider something like Fosamax also, as a preventive. You need a baseline DEXA scan for your bones in any event. Once you get your thyroid situation normalized, you can evaluate whether you need further endocrine studies. If you do all these different things at once, you aren't going to know what has been helpful.
Posted by Phillipa on April 3, 2005, at 16:37:51
In reply to Your thyroid is definitely not OK!, posted by Pfinstegg on April 3, 2005, at 13:26:43
Your advise is so correct. My thyroid is maintained at those levels, and I have osteoporosis, borderline. I take calcium l500mg and have added an equal amt equivalent to half the calcium 750mg as it should be taken in a 2:l ratio. It hasn't helped with my bones. My last scan was worse, and I even added wt lifting along with my walking. They have wanted me to take Actonel for two years and I've refused. I just don't want to add another "new" med when they are pulling so many off the market. Fondly, Phillipa
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