![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 11 to 35 of 35. Go back in thread:
Posted by sabre on January 29, 2005, at 17:12:14
In reply to Re: Are any of these new GABA meds effective?, posted by alienatari on January 29, 2005, at 14:58:24
> Hey maybe its just your GP. Im in Australia too and i am on an MAOI (Parnate), Largactil and Epilim. But i do see a psychatrist too. They kind of both perscribe for me (knowingly).
Thanks, Alienatari
So it is possible to get these drugs. Did you find it difficult the to go and see a psychiatrist the first time? I get adrenaline surges just thinking about discussing my mental deficiencies with a complete stranger.
What are you taking these medications for?sabre
Posted by sabre on January 29, 2005, at 17:24:49
In reply to GABA meds, For Sabre and Willyee, posted by TheOutsider on January 29, 2005, at 8:45:15
Thankyou both for the GHB information.
To be honest I didn't see it as an option but I'm interested to learn everything I can about drugs, neurotransmitters, people's experiences etc in the hope that it will help. I am continually amazed at the lengths some posters have had to go to in an attempt to ease their suffering.
Thanks
sabre
Posted by Willyee on January 30, 2005, at 0:58:29
In reply to GABA meds, For Sabre and Willyee, posted by TheOutsider on January 29, 2005, at 8:45:15
> High Sabre
>
> Sorry I got your hopes up about GHB,
> It is now all but impossible to get in the English speaking world, although I think its still available in Italy and France, if the legends are true!
>
> It is also not a perfect drug, it deffinetly can be addictive.
>
> Sorry if I cames across as being agressive Willyee,
> I hear so much negative propaganda about GHB it makes me rather deffensive about it.
>
> You certainly seem to know what your talking about, I see your point about combining GABA meds with Anti depressents is a good one.
> On its own Klonopin just seems to make me depressed!
> I have never heard of Phenibut, how effective was it for Social anxiety?
> I'm a bit skeptical about supplements because picamilone was absolutely useless.
Not at all,i just wanted to make sure people know everything i say can only apply to me,and otherwise be opinion.As for GHB,it was once legal as a script med in i believe italy called Alcover,that is gone,and so is any supply of it whatsoever,totaly illegal to possess there as in the states.
In germany it was once a script med called Gamma-oh,that is no more,and neither is it period,as it is illegal there.
Aside from alleyway purchase,the last known popular product of it was its precursor gbl,which is basicaly ghb,it was a health supplement,called Renewtrient,and was long ago totaly banned,man companys try to sucker people by making Renewtrient 2 or Renewg keeping the name similiar,but all they are is a bunch of crap,herbs vitamins etc all bunched togther,the real Renewtrient that once was,was nothing more than gbl,nothing else in it.
GHB is legal in the form of xyrem a tightly watched scheldued script med for narcolpesy,it is illegal totaly and one hundred percent in every country.
Phenibutt is a gaba supplement,that also increas PEA,and is effective in crossing the brain.Although nothing like ghb,as there does not exist anything like it,phenibut unlike other supplements will cross the brain and will have activity,and it will be notciable,it can very well have been made a script med.
By the way its not picamilion,i too was totaly P.O D with picamilion,and tossed it away qucikly,pure garbage for me.
Posted by todayisagiftxx on January 30, 2005, at 16:44:52
In reply to Re: Are any of these new GABA meds effective?, posted by mayajade on January 28, 2005, at 16:27:07
my sister is taking gabitril for anxiety and it doesn't seem to help her at all she is up to 4mg a day I think. i know she still experiences a fair amount of anxiety and she never has tried a benzo or anything either
Posted by medhed on January 31, 2005, at 3:00:00
In reply to Re: Are any of these new GABA meds effective?, posted by todayisagiftxx on January 30, 2005, at 16:44:52
GHB is great, U.S. made it scheduleI though. I don't like the addiction part so it really wasn't viable as a daily med. It is easily made from GBL but the legal question scares me.
Neurontin, you just have to take too much for it to be effective. (I have to take too much.)
Gabatril was OK for a short period of time but it pooped out. Some weird side effects were severe forgetfulness, dizziness, feeling drunk. Side effects went away quickly but that was the only thing to remind me I was taking it.
Then there's Klonipin, I like it but I don't like being dependant on benzos. (I tend to abuse them after a while.)
I really want to try Lyrica- I am in the progress with pdoc. I haven't heard to much on this drug except from the drug company and Wall St.
Posted by Michael Bell on January 31, 2005, at 4:59:05
In reply to Are any of these new GABA meds effective?, posted by 3 Beer Effect on January 27, 2005, at 21:17:24
>
None of the meds you mentioned are direct GABA agonists. Not Klonopin, not Gabitril, etc. The mechanism of action of Lyrica, like Neurontin, is still not 100% clear. Picamilon *theoretically* should raise GABA levels in the brain, but its effectiveness at crossing the blood-brain barrier is not proven (although it did provide me with some relief).The only meds out there that truly and directly affect GABA are
1) the GABA transanimase inhibitors (such as Sabril, which is a dangerous drug b/c it causes permanent field of vision loss, and Nardil)and
2) GABA receptor agonists - there is none yet on the market, but Ocinaplon is the closest. It is in phase III trials and is *supposedly* extremely effective for anxiety without the negative effect of benzos.
Sorry, the options are rather limited, but that's where we stand today. Good luck.
It has been a few years since i've been a regular poster on here so I've lost track of all these new GABA meds.
>
> I am always looking for a 3 Beer Effect type medication & sadly, have never found anything better than the 1.5 Beer Effect of Prozac or Zoloft 100 mg.
>
> The Benzos were a big dissapointment to me. They seem to have severe disadvantages of tolerance, dumbness "they are supposed to impair thinking & memory by about 10%), mild depression, & the rebound anxiety when you stop taking them is ridiculous. I had never had a panic attack until I stopped taking Klonopin a few years ago. Not only that but they don't have any of the positive effects of alcohol, namely the extreme self confidence that alcohol gives you. The only meds that seem to replicate this confidence are Prozac, Zoloft, and Dextrostat/Dexedrine.
>
> No one prescribes the barbituates or Miltown anymore, but I have a feeling that they would be closer to a 3 beer effect because of their greater similarity to alcohol. Chloral Hydrate looks good on paper, but it supposedly knocks you out rather than curing anxiety.
>
> But there are all these new GABA meds out there. Gabitril intrigues me because isn't it almost like an MAOI of GABA?
>
> What about Pregabalin? Does it cross the blood brain barrier easier than neurontin? Neurontin is weird cause you have to take like 90 million mgs 10 x per day for it to do anything.
>
> What about this stuff on the internet called Picamilone? It says that it is GABA bonded to Niacin & that IT CROSSES THE BLOOD BRAIN BARRIER! Wouldn't that make it like GHB? (definitely a 3 Beer Effect drug!) Somehow that seems to good to be true (& with most herbals producing little to no results I imagine it is).
>
> What other GABAergic meds are in the pipeline? Because GABA is an inhibitory transmitter, does that mean all GABAergic drugs are "dumb drugs'?
>
> Cheers 3 Beer Effect
Posted by sabre on February 1, 2005, at 0:18:13
In reply to Re: Are any of these new GABA meds effective? » 3 Beer Effect, posted by Michael Bell on January 31, 2005, at 4:59:05
Michael, is Parnate also a GABA transanimase inhibitor?
How exactly do Parnate and Nardil differ?
Thanks
sabre
Posted by aazospiro on February 2, 2005, at 0:45:03
In reply to Re: Are any of these new GABA meds effective? » 3 Beer Effect, posted by Michael Bell on January 31, 2005, at 4:59:05
Ahmmm correction there mister,
Klonopin [Clonazepam] differs from the rest of the benzodiazepines in that in is a partial agonist at the BDZ receptors.
Interesting thing about thses neurotransmitters [from my many many readings] is that they display what I refer to as the "see-saw effect"
Specifically, GABAergic drugs loose their euphorigenic effects, calming properties which quickly turns to severe irritabilitywith chronic use, but add a dopaminergic agent like selegiline or Sinemet or even better a stim and its all back again like if you used it for the first time.
And while on the subject of stimulants, all the chit chat about glutamate antagonists like DXM being used for stim tolerance [which I cant dispute] hasn't anyone considered the effects that T-4 or T3 have on the responsiveness of adrenergic/ dopaminergic receptors. Apparently even though no receptor density changes are evident, the response is augmented and only very tiny doses are needed of the latter.
Certaintly food for thought
Posted by Michael Bell on February 9, 2005, at 21:37:41
In reply to Re: Are any of these new GABA meds effective?, posted by aazospiro on February 2, 2005, at 0:45:03
>
Uhh, no. You post actually proved my point. Klonopin is an agonist of the BDZ receptor. It does NOT act as an agonist of the GABA alpha subunits themselves. This is why it has anti-seizure, sedating, and anti-insomniac properties rather than acting as a pure anxiolytic. There is NO PURE GABA AGONIST on the market yet.Ahmmm correction there mister,
>
> Klonopin [Clonazepam] differs from the rest of the benzodiazepines in that in is a partial agonist at the BDZ receptors.
>
> Interesting thing about thses neurotransmitters [from my many many readings] is that they display what I refer to as the "see-saw effect"
>
> Specifically, GABAergic drugs loose their euphorigenic effects, calming properties which quickly turns to severe irritabilitywith chronic use, but add a dopaminergic agent like selegiline or Sinemet or even better a stim and its all back again like if you used it for the first time.
>
> And while on the subject of stimulants, all the chit chat about glutamate antagonists like DXM being used for stim tolerance [which I cant dispute] hasn't anyone considered the effects that T-4 or T3 have on the responsiveness of adrenergic/ dopaminergic receptors. Apparently even though no receptor density changes are evident, the response is augmented and only very tiny doses are needed of the latter.
>
> Certaintly food for thought
Posted by HoldenYosarian on February 12, 2005, at 23:29:51
In reply to Re: Are any of these new GABA meds effective?, posted by sabre on January 28, 2005, at 15:49:25
I've had my share of experimening with better living through chemistry--tried almost every SSRI ever made--xanax, librium, Valium, Serax, Klonopin, Neurontin (briefly--might as well be placebo), in attempt to simply "normalize" and live a satisfying productive life...as well as an even more extensive foray into the "less sanctioned" versions of chemical recreation...I've also made an avocation out of studying the brain/mind and its workings, as well as biochemistry. I won't bore you with the details at this point.
The point is, if I understand it correctly, three beers, that you're looking more for the "illicit" goal than the societally-approved one (a pleasant buzz rather than simply the content stability promised--and of course rarely delivered---by the medical establishment). Far be it from me to judge. Frankly, I agree with you.
But I believe your entry focussed around manipulating GABA levels as a means of achieving this state. Of course, that's not surprising. That's all you hear about, practically, with respect to relaxation and contentment, these days..."GABA this, GABA that...".
The problem is, that it isn't as simple as focussing on GABA alone when trying to achieve that feeling of "pleasantly removed"...or should I say it..."Comfortably numb".
First of all, I agree totally with the guy who said that messing around with your GABA levels alone will, at best, leave you initially slow,
sluggish, and mentally foggy, but that the rebound anxiety involved with long periods of GABA increase--inevitable, of course--leaves you with the promise of overwhelming anxiety, which hardly made the stupor you were in during your GABA phase even worthwhile. And that's not to mention the Depression that's likely to accompany both the GABA boosting AND the detox.
Let me cut to the bottom line. People who find they need or even regularly want a "three beer effect" are usually those who need some sort of social lubricant or are otherwise uncomfortable with reality in a way that keeps them in a state of anxiety.
To put it simply, you're putting the cart before the horse. You've got to address that underlying cause before you can appreciate the quality or significance of the symptoms.
The answer is norepinepherine, not GABA. Call me paranoid, but getting caught up in the GABA merry go 'round is exactly what the Pharm. guys want. Addiction to the means of addressing symptoms, not an actual cure of the underlying imbalance/condition.
I don't have time at the moment to go into the relation btwn norep. and GABA, other neurotransmitters, etc--sorry. But if you want that "three beer effect", you're going to have to start with addressing your norepinepherine levels. Wellbutrin is a weak norepinepherine re-uptake inhibitor, as well as dopamine. Effexor is a stronger Nor. re-up inhib, and increases serotonin levels, as well. There's a new AD, called reboxetine, which is solely a Nor. re-up inhibitor, but I don't think you can get it in the states (guess why? As they say, just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean I'm wrong).
L-tyrosine, an amino acid, increases levels of Nor. (and Dopamine, but mostly Nor.) you should take at least 3g on an empty stomach for any results. There are other Nor. supplement precursors, as well, including D-phenylalanine, quite a few others, plus herbals.
For more info about importance of norepinepherine in the release and control of stress hormones and anxiety, do a search on "cortisol the hypothalamus and Nor.", "PTSD and Nor.,", "medication resistant depression and Nor."
Deal with the underlying reason, which almost certainly involves your Nor. levels, and then....drink three beers--or whatever.
Posted by sabre on February 13, 2005, at 23:13:36
In reply to Re: Are any of these new GABA meds effective? » sabre, posted by HoldenYosarian on February 12, 2005, at 23:29:51
Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou, Holden.
This is what I have been wanting to know.
Tyrosine is one of the only supplements that have yielded any results for me...at approx 2g/day. But the effect wears out after a few weeks and I have to go off it. I had been wondering about using Reboxetine as I can get in Australia and the gp said she was happy to prescribe it.SSRIs are awful, including Tryptophan.
I started looking into GABA and have recently played around with GABA, Phenibut and Picamilon but didn't get the results I was after. I sidetracked to glutamine and have found it very stimulating esp at about 2g/day. I tried mixing 500mg with valium yesterday but the valium sedation won.
Propanalol and glutamine are a little better but not what I'm after.
I thought that perhaps if I found a regulator or enhancer of the glutamate to GABA conversion that I would find social ease. I've unearthed references to taurine and theanine having this function...in addition to GABA prescription drugs.
At the same time I also found a reference to
http://www.psychiatry.ufl.edu/Newsletters/Content/Krystal.pdf
It mentioned that NA and DA are modulators of glutamate to GABA conversion.
So is this what you are talking about?I'll go and look up your suggestions.
Thanks again, Holden and welcome to Babble.
sabre
Posted by HoldenYosarian on February 15, 2005, at 2:46:38
In reply to Re: Are any of these new GABA meds effective?, posted by sabre on February 13, 2005, at 23:13:36
> Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou, Holden.
>
> This is what I have been wanting to know.
> Tyrosine is one of the only supplements that have yielded any results for me...at approx 2g/day. But the effect wears out after a few weeks and I have to go off it. I had been wondering about using Reboxetine as I can get in Australia and the gp said she was happy to prescribe it.
>
> SSRIs are awful, including Tryptophan.
>
> I started looking into GABA and have recently played around with GABA, Phenibut and Picamilon but didn't get the results I was after. I sidetracked to glutamine and have found it very stimulating esp at about 2g/day. I tried mixing 500mg with valium yesterday but the valium sedation won.
>
> Propanalol and glutamine are a little better but not what I'm after.
>
> I thought that perhaps if I found a regulator or enhancer of the glutamate to GABA conversion that I would find social ease. I've unearthed references to taurine and theanine having this function...in addition to GABA prescription drugs.
>
> At the same time I also found a reference to
> http://www.psychiatry.ufl.edu/Newsletters/Content/Krystal.pdf
> It mentioned that NA and DA are modulators of glutamate to GABA conversion.
> So is this what you are talking about?
>
> I'll go and look up your suggestions.
>
> Thanks again, Holden and welcome to Babble.
>
> sabre
>
O.K. sabre, a bit more advice--glad to help anyway possible, by the way.
1. You haven't been taking enough tyronsine. You need at least 3 g/ day to realize any potential antidepressant benefits. Problem is, it's metabolized not only into dopamine and noradrenaline (norepinepherine), but epinepherine, as well (i.e. adrenaline) in the medulla--which means if you have problems with anxiety to begin with, the epinepherine's going to aggravate it. However, you can forestall this with a beta-blocker--so my recommendation would be to try tyrosine again, increase to at least 3 g/day, progressing up to 5 before giving up, and adding a beta-blocker at the same time.2. As far as the glutamine is concerned, don't take over 3 g/day. You'll risk burning out neurons with an "excitatory" effect at a higher dosage. This is serious sh*t. We're talking significant brain damage--if used at that strength for any length of time.
Sounds like your main issue is Noradrenaline, if Tyrosine was so helpful--dopamine is a byproduct of Tyrosine, of course, so I'd recommend you ask your pdoc for some wellbutrin, as well.
When referring to social ease, you'll find you're main concern is cortisol. L-theanine is a fairly good tool to head-off cortisol production (they haven't figured out exactly why or how) and is also metabolized into dopamine and norepinepherine. Epimedium (an herb) is one of the all around best cortisol fighters, and is considered an "adaptogen", as it contributes to increases in and stabilization of neurotransmitter function. L-Methionine should also be on your list. Tuanrine's a great calmative, and there's no L or D form, so don't bother looking---it's just called Taurine. Many swear by it.
One caveat...be wary of the psyches (you mentioned a site). They're not scientists--less so that the average physician--and only rarely do their homework, as a rule, I've found.
I can't say say I completely disagree with what you've said regarding the site's advice, expecially considering I haven't seen it---but if it is as you say, the context is off. You see, Glutamine is used as a fuel in the production of both Da, Na, and many other factors and co-factors. DA and NA are "modulators" of Glutamine translation to GABA because they are formed first, and it's only what's left over that's translated to GABA. It's main affect is on ATP production and cellular metabolism--thus the energy. Little is actually translated into GABA.
I understand your pain, and the everpresent desire for just a moment of relief. Unfortunately, GABA is not the answer. It's yet another corporate scheme to keep us on the roller coaster of consumption--Neurontin,gabatril, etc, etc. Have you ever known, or seen a post by someone who's reached a satisfied,stable state through the use of GABA influencing drugs? You won't find one. Again, give the reboxetine/effexor/wellbutrin a chance before you going any further chasing GABA. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. I also get the feeling that you have ADD. Get tested. ADD is responsible for more misery and dysfunction than anyone unfamiliar with it has any idea of (I hope this isn't presumptuous, I have it too--I've just gotten good at reading the signs after lots of study). Also, when you feel your supps are wearing out, combine them with licorice root and bioperine complex (indian black pepper rhysomes).Thanks for the welcome, hope to hear from you soon.
Posted by HoldenYosarian on February 15, 2005, at 3:35:41
In reply to Re: Are any of these new GABA meds effective?, posted by sabre on February 13, 2005, at 23:13:36
> Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou, Holden.
>
> This is what I have been wanting to know.
> Tyrosine is one of the only supplements that have yielded any results for me...at approx 2g/day. But the effect wears out after a few weeks and I have to go off it. I had been wondering about using Reboxetine as I can get in Australia and the gp said she was happy to prescribe it.
>
> SSRIs are awful, including Tryptophan.
>
> I started looking into GABA and have recently played around with GABA, Phenibut and Picamilon but didn't get the results I was after. I sidetracked to glutamine and have found it very stimulating esp at about 2g/day. I tried mixing 500mg with valium yesterday but the valium sedation won.
>
> Propanalol and glutamine are a little better but not what I'm after.
>
> I thought that perhaps if I found a regulator or enhancer of the glutamate to GABA conversion that I would find social ease. I've unearthed references to taurine and theanine having this function...in addition to GABA prescription drugs.
>
> At the same time I also found a reference to
> http://www.psychiatry.ufl.edu/Newsletters/Content/Krystal.pdf
> It mentioned that NA and DA are modulators of glutamate to GABA conversion.
> So is this what you are talking about?
>
> I'll go and look up your suggestions.
>
> Thanks again, Holden and welcome to Babble.
>
> sabre
>Sabre--I've included the rather abstruse study to illustrate a point...while glutamine and glutamate is technically responsible for the creation of GABA, GABA is for the most part a transitional stage through which glutamate passes
on its way to become glutamine, and is exists during only brief stages during which this process takes place, for the most part.
The study follows:
"http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/131/9/2498S
The glutamate-glutamine cycle: biochemical and molecular considerations
The metabolism of neurotransmitter glutamate and GABA is linked to a substrate cycle between neurons and astrocytes involving glutamate, GABA and glutamine (Martin 1995 , Schousboe et al. 1993 , Van den Berg 1972 ). The efficient functioning of the glutamate-glutamine cycle is made possible by the physical segregation of specific enzymes between neurons and glia and the presence of specialized amino acid transporter proteins. Glutamate and GABA released into the synapse in response to nerve terminal depolarization, bind to their respective receptors and are cleared from the interstitum by uptake into astroglia. Within astroglia, glutamate (and GABA through an indirect process) is converted to glutamine by the astroglia-specific enzyme, glutamine synthetase (GS) (Martinez-Hernandez et al. 1977 ). Glutamine is transported from astroglia into neurons and is hydrolyzed to glutamate by the mitochondrial enzyme, phosphate-activated glutaminase (PAG) (Kanamori and Ross 1995 , Kvamme and Lenda 1982 ). Thus, this pathway results in a cyclic flow of carbon between nerve terminals and glia, i.e., a glutamate-GABA-glutamine cycle. Some of the key molecular components required for the operation of this cycle are described below.Two other neuronal transporters, EAAT4 and EAAT5, are expressed on cerebellar GABAergic Purkinje cells and in the retina, respectively, and appear to differ from their cortical counterparts in gating Cl- ions. Although the functions of the neuronal transporters are not yet clear, one of them (EAAC1) is expressed on some GABAergic nerve terminals (Kanai and Hediger 1992 , Rothstein et al. 1994 and 1996 ) where it may have a role in the supply of precursor glutamate for GABA synthesis (Sepkuty et al. 2000).
Evidence from molecular (Rothstein et al. 1996 and 1994 ) and electrophysiologic studies (Bergles and Jahr 1997 and 1998 ) indicates that the astroglial transporters clear the majority of glutamate from the synaptic cleft. As discussed subsequently, the molecular findings are consistent with in vivo NMR study results showing that glutamate uptake into astroglia and its conversion to glutamine is the predominant path for recycling of neuronal glutamate in vivo (Rothman et al. 1999 ).
GABA transport.
Astroglia and neurons possess a high capacity for the transport of GABA (Henn and Hamberger 1971 , Hertz et al. 1978 , Ryan and Roskoski 1977 ). Molecular cloning studies have identified four high affinity, Na+ and Cl--dependent, GABA transporters (GAT) in the brain (GAT1, GAT2, GAT3, GAT4/BGT-1). With the exception of GAT-3, which is expressed on astrocytes, the other GAT subtypes are expressed on both neurons and astrocytes (Minelli et al. 1995 and 1996 , Ribak et al. 1996 ). The functional roles of the different GABA transporter subtypes in the clearance of GABA from synaptic, and possibly extrasynaptic sites remain to be elucidated. Rapid metabolism of GABA in astrocytes via an active GABA-transaminase (Chan-Palay et al. 1979 , Larsson and Schousboe 1990 ) maintains GABA at a low level in these cells, resulting in a large concentration gradient between GABAergic neurons and the surrounding transporter-rich astroglia
GABA synthesis depends on glutamine for its supply of glutamate precursors in vitro and in vivo (Balazs et al. 1973 , Patel et al. 2000 , Sonnewald et al. 1993 , Van den Berg 1972 ), indicating that some fraction of GABA released from GABAergic neurons is not recycled directly back into the terminal. ('Some Fraction--meaning not much)Astroglial metabolism of extracellular glutamate and GABA stimulates glutamine synthesis.
Glutamine synthesis in astroglia is generally considered the major net metabolic pathway for the metabolism of extracellular glutamate (Wanienski and Martin 1986 ). GABA metabolism in astroglia can also lead to glutamine synthesis. Unlike glutamate, however, GABA must be further processed in the astroglial tricarboxylic acid (TCA) cycle, a two-step reaction involving -ketoglutarate and NAD+ that converts GABA to succinic acid via GABA-transaminase (GABA-T) and succinic semialdehyde dehydrogenase. The initial transamination between GABA and -ketoglutarate catalyzed by GABA-T produces glutamate, which may then proceed to formation of glutamine."May your path be straight, or as winding as the wisdom to which you are fated...
HoldenYosarian
Posted by aphexonset on February 15, 2005, at 4:35:54
In reply to Are any of these new GABA meds effective?, posted by 3 Beer Effect on January 27, 2005, at 21:17:24
I went to my school psychiatrist, and was diagnosed with GAD. He was against benzos, even though a previous script from my physician helped alot, so he put me on Gabatril, since Its supposed to work similarly. After a week or so, I felt some relief in anxiety. I tapered up to what he felt is a normal dose for anxiety.
Then the anxiety pretty much came back. Then, mostly in situations where I'd become extra panicked, all space in my field of vision would become 2dimentional. I couldnt judge how deep a room went, the wall floor and ceiling just seemed pressed up against my eyes, except for a tunnel of regular 3d space in the center of my vision. Very weird. Like a street drug. Reminded me of the couple of times years ago I tried 'shrooms.
Posted by HoldenYosarian on February 15, 2005, at 12:33:16
In reply to How about a mushroom effect instead of a 3 beer, posted by aphexonset on February 15, 2005, at 4:35:54
> I went to my school psychiatrist, and was diagnosed with GAD. He was against benzos, even though a previous script from my physician helped alot, so he put me on Gabatril, since Its supposed to work similarly. After a week or so, I felt some relief in anxiety. I tapered up to what he felt is a normal dose for anxiety.
>
> Then the anxiety pretty much came back. Then, mostly in situations where I'd become extra panicked, all space in my field of vision would become 2dimentional. I couldnt judge how deep a room went, the wall floor and ceiling just seemed pressed up against my eyes, except for a tunnel of regular 3d space in the center of my vision. Very weird. Like a street drug. Reminded me of the couple of times years ago I tried 'shrooms.aphexonet
Sorry about your predicament. GAD (although that's a catch all-term meaning little by itself--another thing the pdocs are good at) is hell, I know. ONe prob is the "consultation" kickbacks that most pdocs receive for prescribing the newest meds--whether they're indicated, efficacious, or not. My recomendation is Effexor. It's a GAD agent, too--but without the GABA thrown in that makes you loopy. DOn't quit on it until you've reached 300 mg. The Noradrenaline uptake inhibition will regulate your GABA, as it's supposed to. Try D,L phenylalanine to top it off--it'll booost your available NOR., Dopamine--but I'd also add Taurine to counteract the increase in epinepherine that comes along with it--as well as l-theanine--and L-Methionine.
By the way, if you're school pdoc thinks that Gabatril and benzos are comparable, he needs to go back to school himself.Keep me posted
Holden
Posted by franco neuro on February 15, 2005, at 13:51:51
In reply to Re: Are any of these new GABA meds effective? » sabre, posted by HoldenYosarian on February 12, 2005, at 23:29:51
You're dispensing some good advice my friend. Glad to see there are people out there doing their homework. I too have been helped more by that $10 bottle of tyrosine than bucketloads of SSRI's, GABAergics and dreaded TCA's. Unfortunately, i only got wise this past year. But the "tyrosine effect" as i like to call it has finally helped to point me in what i hope is the right direction. I'll be starting Wellbutrin soon and hopefully it'll work. There aren't too many "clean" norepinephrine and/or dopamine agonists out there. I think in my case that Wellbutrin is the best choice. Definitely reboxetine for norepinephrine. I have read about a medication that is hard to come by called survector which is supposed to be really dopamine selective. It's funny how when you mention anxiety or panic meds. the first ones that jump into peoples' heads are the SSRI or GABA meds. When in fact the most powerful anti-panic/anxiety drugs are actually the MAOI's. Which have fallen out of favor (supposedly) due to their side effects. I've never taken one so I have no first hand experience as to their efficacy. By the way i wash my tyrosine down with grape juice. I've heard that the carbs help to facilitate it's transport. Any thoughts on this?
Posted by Iansf on February 15, 2005, at 17:46:01
In reply to Re: Are any of these new GABA meds effective?, posted by HoldenYosarian on February 15, 2005, at 2:46:38
> O.K. sabre, a bit more advice--glad to help anyway possible, by the way.
> 1. You haven't been taking enough tyronsine. You need at least 3 g/ day to realize any potential antidepressant benefits. Problem is, it's metabolized not only into dopamine and noradrenaline (norepinepherine), but epinepherine, as well (i.e. adrenaline) in the medulla--which means if you have problems with anxiety to begin with, the epinepherine's going to aggravate it. However, you can forestall this with a beta-blocker--so my recommendation would be to try tyrosine again, increase to at least 3 g/day, progressing up to 5 before giving up, and adding a beta-blocker at the same time.
>
> 2. As far as the glutamine is concerned, don't take over 3 g/day. You'll risk burning out neurons with an "excitatory" effect at a higher dosage. This is serious sh*t. We're talking significant brain damage--if used at that strength for any length of time.
>
> Sounds like your main issue is Noradrenaline, if Tyrosine was so helpful--dopamine is a byproduct of Tyrosine, of course, so I'd recommend you ask your pdoc for some wellbutrin, as well.
> When referring to social ease, you'll find you're main concern is cortisol. L-theanine is a fairly good tool to head-off cortisol production (they haven't figured out exactly why or how) and is also metabolized into dopamine and norepinepherine. Epimedium (an herb) is one of the all around best cortisol fighters, and is considered an "adaptogen", as it contributes to increases in and stabilization of neurotransmitter function. L-Methionine should also be on your list. Tuanrine's a great calmative, and there's no L or D form, so don't bother looking---it's just called Taurine. Many swear by it.
> One caveat...be wary of the psyches (you mentioned a site). They're not scientists--less so that the average physician--and only rarely do their homework, as a rule, I've found.
> I can't say say I completely disagree with what you've said regarding the site's advice, expecially considering I haven't seen it---but if it is as you say, the context is off. You see, Glutamine is used as a fuel in the production of both Da, Na, and many other factors and co-factors. DA and NA are "modulators" of Glutamine translation to GABA because they are formed first, and it's only what's left over that's translated to GABA. It's main affect is on ATP production and cellular metabolism--thus the energy. Little is actually translated into GABA.
> I understand your pain, and the everpresent desire for just a moment of relief. Unfortunately, GABA is not the answer. It's yet another corporate scheme to keep us on the roller coaster of consumption--Neurontin,gabatril, etc, etc. Have you ever known, or seen a post by someone who's reached a satisfied,stable state through the use of GABA influencing drugs? You won't find one. Again, give the reboxetine/effexor/wellbutrin a chance before you going any further chasing GABA. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. I also get the feeling that you have ADD. Get tested. ADD is responsible for more misery and dysfunction than anyone unfamiliar with it has any idea of (I hope this isn't presumptuous, I have it too--I've just gotten good at reading the signs after lots of study). Also, when you feel your supps are wearing out, combine them with licorice root and bioperine complex (indian black pepper rhysomes).
>
> Thanks for the welcome, hope to hear from you soon.
>
Holden, I too have social phobia, but I have to say I've not found Wellbutrin even minorly useful in that regard. I've taken Wellbutrin for a long time, and it does lessen depression (what it actually does is enable me to come up from depression when I fall into it - and that's exactly how I fell, like I'm falling - rather than preventing it). But it is no help with social phobia.The meds I've found useful unfortunately are the SSRIs, which also make me totally impotent. Since an important reason for my wanting to do something about social phobia is to be able to form a close relationship, the SSRIs work against. It's been a cruel irony for me: if I take a med that makes it possible to meet people and form an attachment, it puts me out of the running in an entirely different way.
Actually, I've never come across anyone whose social phobia was helped by Wellbutrin. There probably are people, but I'm willing to be they're in the minority.
Given what I've written, do you think the Tyrosine, etc. regimen you recommended would be of benefit to me? Thanks.
John
Posted by franco neuro on February 15, 2005, at 20:11:34
In reply to Re: Are any of these new GABA meds effective? » HoldenYosarian, posted by Iansf on February 15, 2005, at 17:46:01
Which SSRI are you taking if you don't mind me asking? I took paxil for a while and apparently had the same experience you had. I was a lot more comfortable in social situations but it completely killed my libido and basically made it impossible to have an orgasm. Who needs that? I'm currently taking zoloft and i find it's much less of a libido killer. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be doing much of anything. That's why i'm adding the wellbutrin. Also, right now my main problem isn't anxiety but depression and lack of motivation. The medical term is anhedonia. Basically i don't feel much of anything right now...
Posted by Iansf on February 15, 2005, at 20:38:25
In reply to Re: Are any of these new GABA meds effective? » Iansf, posted by franco neuro on February 15, 2005, at 20:11:34
> Which SSRI are you taking if you don't mind me asking? I took paxil for a while and apparently had the same experience you had. I was a lot more comfortable in social situations but it completely killed my libido and basically made it impossible to have an orgasm. Who needs that? I'm currently taking zoloft and i find it's much less of a libido killer. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be doing much of anything. That's why i'm adding the wellbutrin. Also, right now my main problem isn't anxiety but depression and lack of motivation. The medical term is anhedonia. Basically i don't feel much of anything right now... >>
At the moment I'm taking Cymbalta, which blocks reuptake of both serotonin and norepinephrine. It also has a negative sexual impact but not so extreme as the SSRIs I've tried (Prozac, Paxil, Celexa, Lexapro and Luvox, which was by the far the worst sexually). Unfortunately, it is not helping with social phobia, or not much, and judging by the past few days it's also losing its punch in terms of depression. I'm hoping that's not the case, that I've simply going through a period of deeper depression, a depression that might be devastating were I not taking meds but is just unpleasant since I am.
I've never met anyone who liked Zoloft, though I'm sure there are many people who do. The biggest complaint I've heard is that it creates a craving for sweets (or maybe for carbohydrates in general) along with a kind of caution-be-damned attitude that makes it really, really easy to put on weight. You not only have additional craving but also less inclination to control your eating.
Posted by franco neuro on February 15, 2005, at 21:09:49
In reply to Re: Are any of these new GABA meds effective? » franco neuro, posted by Iansf on February 15, 2005, at 20:38:25
The only reason i decided to give the Zoloft a shot was because my sister's been on a 25mg maintainence does for 6 years and she loves it. I figured we have the same genes so maybe it would do the same for me. But again i feel very little at 50mg except maybe a very slight lift in mood. But it's done nothing for motivation. I was thinking of going the dual action medication route myself. Either Cymbalta or Serzone or maybe even giving Effexor a shot because at high (really high) doses it also is supposed to hit dopamine. But i figured i'd rather take 2 seperate medications so i can tinker with them individually and see if i can come up with a winning combo. But the fact is i've never tried a pro-dopamine med. And even though i took Elavil a long time which is supposed to boost norepinephrine it's such a shotgun of a drug that it's hard to know what part of it's action is doing what. I mean if you read about most of the TCA's they mess with pretty much every neurotransmitter known to mankind. So if you had one neuron that was working before you started taking them you can be sure the TCA will find it and f it up...
Posted by sabre on February 16, 2005, at 15:55:01
In reply to Re: Are any of these new GABA meds effective? » sabre, posted by HoldenYosarian on February 12, 2005, at 23:29:51
Hi Holden
ADD? That one came out of left field. I checked out a few web sites and I can identify with some of the characteristics. Don't know whether I'm the full blown variety though. I can't differentiate beteen anxiety and ADD symptoms.
Social anxiety is the perfect fit. Depression, obssessiveness, general anxiety, hyperactivity are familiar. I take on too much and crash and burn a lot.ADD is certainly worth pursuing in terms of looking for drugs that might help.
I printed off your info on the glutamate-glutamine cycle and tried to read it while bouncing up and down my exercise ball. I think I have oversimplified the glutamate - GABA connection!
I will try theanine, taurine and eventually Reboxetine.What are your ADD and medication experiences?
DO you suffer from social anxiety?I have often wondered if all the limitations of social anxiety were removed what would I find. Would I then go into hyperdrive doing all the stuff I haven't been able to, plus more. Perhaps social anxiety is nature's brake or a protective mechanism.
Thanks Holden. Are you a biochemist...or something like that?
sabre
Posted by MM on February 17, 2005, at 23:22:52
In reply to Re: Are any of these new GABA ...Holden, posted by sabre on February 16, 2005, at 15:55:01
I want to follow this thread, but I also wanted to ask Holden if he (assuming from the name) has any thoughts on what might help me I guess, if he wants to, but I'm not sure what info to give. A general curiosity though, what about Serotonin? It (SSRI's) makes me feel like I'm on acid, totally apathetic, seemingly more depressed and anxious, things feel unreal-ish.... I like Wellbutrin, but I think it might be a bit too activating. Like another poster said, it helps me get out of depression when I fall in. And according to my PX slips, I liked Effexor too. I liked Serzone, except that it made me almost too uninhibited, and I craved alcohol like crazy. Klonopin has been a pretty helpful med for me. Mood stabilizers have been somewhat helpful I think, but mostly just because they're numbing. I've never had a manic or hypomanic episode but I'm diagnosed as BPII. I've been on all kinds of other meds (illegal and not) and can give experiences with those too if it would help. I'm wondering if Dopamine might not be right for me because I think it might increase self consciousness, like a paranoia. I don't mean to be imposing, I just am desperate at this point and I feel like my pdoc is not one of the "good" ones, doesn't listen or care about the side effects, just wants to try the latest thing etc. (he put me on strattera when it first came out and I couldn't sleep for 3 days and he was like ya, we found out that one's bad, among other things) and it's kind up to me to figure things out I guess and you seem like you know your stuff, so I have to ask. *phew* Sorry for rambling. I kind of feel like an idiot, but there's a chance so..
Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
MM
Posted by sabre on February 18, 2005, at 2:17:52
In reply to Re: Are any of these new GABA ...Holden, posted by MM on February 17, 2005, at 23:22:52
Hello Holden
I tried increasing the tyrosine yesterday and today to 3g. I worked today and also took Propanolol. I noticed a stronger effect...more outgoing and joking.As of next week I'm supposed to be giving weekly presentations and I'm dying with the thought.
I made an appt with the gp and I'm going to ask for Reboxetine.Thankyou
sabre
Posted by franco neuro on February 19, 2005, at 15:44:26
In reply to Re: Are any of these new GABA ...Holden, posted by sabre on February 18, 2005, at 2:17:52
Holden? Holden are you there...? I have questions about the role of phenylethylamine (PEA) and histamine...
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 19, 2005, at 15:46:13
In reply to Where in the world is Holden Yosarian?, posted by franco neuro on February 18, 2005, at 13:15:49
> I have questions about the role of phenylethylamine (PEA) and histamine...
Sorry if it's confusing here, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding phenylethylamine to Psycho-Babble Alternative. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20050131/msgs/460442.html
Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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