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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by mike13 on December 25, 2004, at 15:01:13
In reply to Re: Persistence of adverse effects of SSRIs » mike13, posted by ed_uk on December 25, 2004, at 14:51:28
> Hi Mike,
>
> Do you still suffer from depression? If you do, you might benefit from nortriptyline, desipramine (or lofepramine if you live in the UK). Have you tried any of these meds?
>
> Ed.
I've only tried SSRI'S ... but I am definitely in need of a change I'll look those up thanks..
Posted by KaraS on December 25, 2004, at 15:34:28
In reply to Persistence of adverse effects of SSRIs, posted by ed_uk on December 25, 2004, at 8:13:18
> Hi!!
>
> I remember the last time I stopped taking my SSRI it took ages for me to regain my motivation ie. many months.
>
> After you stopped YOUR SSRI, how long did it take for the apathy to dissapear??
>
> Has anyone noticed any persistent side effects of SSRIs?
>
> Ed.
Hi Ed,I have been off of Effexor for a couple of months now. I may be seeing a tiny bit of motivation coming back - but this may be wishful thinking on my part. Also, it's so hard to determine what can be attributed to the medication and what is the depression itself (since I'm currently unmedicated).
In terms of sex, when I go off of an SSRI, the feelings come rushing back to me. It's much stronger than it ever was in my normal premedication state. It's almost frightening how intense it can be - especially when you're not used to having any drive or sensation. I think that aspect, at least for me, is much more easily fixed than the apathy problem.
K
Posted by ed_uk on December 25, 2004, at 15:43:24
In reply to Re: Persistence of adverse effects of SSRIs » ed_uk, posted by KaraS on December 25, 2004, at 15:34:28
>In terms of sex, when I go off of an SSRI, the feelings come rushing back to me. It's much stronger than it ever was in my normal premedication state. It's almost frightening how intense it can be - especially when you're not used to having any drive or sensation.
Hi K,
Within days of coming off Effexor I had really bad premature ejaculation! (Sorry if you didn't want to know that.) I guess it was a 'rebound' from the 'orgasmic delay' imposed by the Effexor.
Ed.
Posted by linkadge on December 25, 2004, at 15:48:30
In reply to Re: Persistence of adverse effects of SSRIs » KaraS, posted by ed_uk on December 25, 2004, at 15:43:24
The dopamine rebound can cause a temporary paradoxical activation, sexual/otherwise.
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk on December 25, 2004, at 15:54:43
In reply to Re: Persistence of adverse effects of SSRIs, posted by linkadge on December 25, 2004, at 15:48:30
Hi Link,
When I came of Effexor (abruptly) I experienced some quite intense emotions which were actually rather pleasant. Watching the news was transformed from a *emotionless* experience into an *emotional* experience (this didn't last however). Unfortunately, I had some of the usual unpleasant withdrawal symptoms as well.
Ed.
Posted by ed_uk on December 25, 2004, at 15:57:33
In reply to Re: Persistence of adverse effects of SSRIs » linkadge, posted by ed_uk on December 25, 2004, at 15:54:43
..... I guess if I did experience a 'dopamine rebound' it didn't last very long.
Ed.
Posted by KaraS on December 25, 2004, at 16:43:57
In reply to Re: Persistence of adverse effects of SSRIs, posted by linkadge on December 25, 2004, at 15:48:30
> The dopamine rebound can cause a temporary paradoxical activation, sexual/otherwise.
>
> Linkadge
So that's the culprit?Too bad it had to stop :-)
Posted by KaraS on December 25, 2004, at 16:45:29
In reply to Re: Persistence of adverse effects of SSRIs » KaraS, posted by ed_uk on December 25, 2004, at 15:43:24
> >In terms of sex, when I go off of an SSRI, the feelings come rushing back to me. It's much stronger than it ever was in my normal premedication state. It's almost frightening how intense it can be - especially when you're not used to having any drive or sensation.
>
> Hi K,
>
> Within days of coming off Effexor I had really bad premature ejaculation! (Sorry if you didn't want to know that.) I guess it was a 'rebound' from the 'orgasmic delay' imposed by the Effexor.
>
> Ed.
No problem. It's amazing how many things can be affected by these medications!K
Posted by KaraS on December 25, 2004, at 16:47:35
In reply to Re: Persistence of adverse effects of SSRIs, posted by KaraS on December 25, 2004, at 16:45:29
Posted by MM on December 25, 2004, at 20:09:48
In reply to Persistence of adverse effects of SSRIs, posted by ed_uk on December 25, 2004, at 8:13:18
> Hi!!
>
> I remember the last time I stopped taking my SSRI it took ages for me to regain my motivation ie. many months.
>
> After you stopped YOUR SSRI, how long did it take for the apathy to dissapear??
>
> Has anyone noticed any persistent side effects of SSRIs?
>
> Ed.
I wish I could be specific, but I tried so many SSRI's, with and without other meds, so all I can say is that I had a bunch of bad effects; many went away and things got a lot better after the withdrawl (which didn't exist when I was getting off them, like Zoloft, so my brain buzzes meant I was just crazy) was over, but I do have some vague effects now that I never had before taking them. Some feelings, some perspectives/states of mind, some personality traits, some physical sensations were all introduced while on SSRI's and I think my brain is forever changed due to them. It did get a lot better (no more buzzing and all the other weird things, like going numb in half of my arm)....I don't know what would happen if I was on no medications though; maybe the anticonvulsants prevent some stuff from showing. I can't say if my depression or medications or not having the right medications makes me still apathetic. It seems like I've gotten a lot of the feeling back, but maybe not all. One thing that started to happen while on SSRI's that has persisted is "weird eye sensations"...like my eye is now going lazy.....sorry for the long post again. I don't think SSRI's are the answer.
Meg.
Posted by MM on December 25, 2004, at 20:14:35
In reply to Persistence of adverse effects of SSRIs, posted by ed_uk on December 25, 2004, at 8:13:18
they made me bipolar. I read something (on bipolarworld.com) that it happens a whole lot more than "they" want you to think....like 30-40% of the time, and believe me if I had known those were the chances I wouldn't have taken that stuff, or kept trying different ones etc. even when it made me feel like ripping my skin off. They were marketed well when too new (in my humble opinion) and now we're seeing the truth about them.
Posted by linkadge on December 25, 2004, at 20:59:34
In reply to oh ya, forgot..., posted by MM on December 25, 2004, at 20:14:35
I know of a few psychiatrists who "got out" because they did not believe the practices of modern psychiatry were ethical. Helping human suffering at what cost? Extreme disturbances in the prospects of long term mental health ??
And the drug companies are "gunning it" these days to try and convice everyone they're depressed. Mark my words, psychiatry is going to run into *significant* complications in the next 10-20 years when it realizes its got a generation of SSRI-addicted zombies with drug induced excitotoxicity that makes neural tissue look like swiss cheese.
Linkadge
Posted by MM on December 25, 2004, at 21:45:44
In reply to Re: oh ya, forgot..., posted by linkadge on December 25, 2004, at 20:59:34
They're all covered for every possible side effect though ...."may cause turning into smurf and running backwards while talking to carrots or any others we haven't thought of, but you still can't sue us" so, I don't know if they'll be the ones facing the consequences... I didn't even know what mania was, and I believe it said "very rare SE" or something. I think if I'd never have walked into a psychiatrist's office, I'd be a lot better off now. But, who can say (no offense to psychiatrists heh...I know there are a lot of good ones, just not sure if I've found that errrr special one? yet). It just worries me when I walk into the waiting room and see a new px pen and then end up on the med.
Not once was I asked about any of the reasons I wanted to stop being on SSRI's (I was 14, I didn't know how it worked, so I struggled to try to explain the weird things happening) and I just got switched around to different ones, without realizing that I was having mixed states. I kinda thought that was how normal people felt, cuz that's what I'd been hearing; that it would make me normal. I didn't have any kind of real support to help me with the research or anything. We didn't even have the net then. Anyway, sorry for the negative posts...lol maybe it's cuz it's Christmas.Meg
Posted by linkadge on December 26, 2004, at 8:49:59
In reply to Re: oh ya, forgot... » linkadge, posted by MM on December 25, 2004, at 21:45:44
The sick thing is the raw statistics. For *most* people who have a depression it rarely lasts longer than 6-8 months, and then it gets better on its own without medication.
Well I have been on AD meds for 5 years now! I can't get off the stuff cause I am addicted to it, and I am more suicidal than ever because of the extreme and apparently permanent side effects I am suffering. I wish I had never taken an antidepressant in my life. I can say that with more cetaintly than I've said anything else.
Linkadge
Posted by mike13 on December 26, 2004, at 12:48:40
In reply to Re: oh ya, forgot..., posted by linkadge on December 26, 2004, at 8:49:59
> The sick thing is the raw statistics. For *most* people who have a depression it rarely lasts longer than 6-8 months, and then it gets better on its own without medication.
>
> Well I have been on AD meds for 5 years now! I can't get off the stuff cause I am addicted to it, and I am more suicidal than ever because of the extreme and apparently permanent side effects I am suffering. I wish I had never taken an antidepressant in my life. I can say that with more cetaintly than I've said anything else.
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>What do you mean you're addicted to ad's?? Are you on an SSRI?? How can one get addicted to being apathetic , mindless , emotionless to sum it up feeling completely sub human.. just curious. I'd say I am addicted in the sense that my brain seems to depend on it to function as when it is devoid of a serotonin booster i'm not depressed but I feel extremely slow , I have trouble speaking...etc.. it's like my body depends on it to function normally or something..
Posted by linkadge on December 26, 2004, at 13:33:08
In reply to Re: oh ya, forgot..., posted by mike13 on December 26, 2004, at 12:48:40
Thats exactly it. If I stop taking SSRI's I will be lifeless, dumbwitted, insomniac, rageaholoic,unstable, panic-ridden, neurotic, obsessive, delerious, dysthemic, with dystonia, diskinsia, anorexia, migrane, psychosis, agitation, anxiety, akathesia, tremor, sweating, social phobia, IBS, agression, hypertention, unexplained pain, guilt, fear, shock-like sensations, chills, diareah, nausia, diminished sexual desire, nightmares, orgasmic dysfunction, dizziness, abnormal vision, palpations, increased fatiguability, nervousness, apathy, catatonic reaction, virtigo, stupor, confusion, impaired concentration, blushing, mania, psychomotor retardation, abnormal dreams, abnormal thinking, deprersonalization, vomiting, hostility, neuralgia, abnormal speech, impulse control difficulties, delusions, paranoia, hyperventalation, loss of taste, tachycardia, night sweats, and numb extremities.
I suppose you could say I am addicted, or you could call it something else if you like.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 26, 2004, at 13:34:27
In reply to Re: oh ya, forgot..., posted by linkadge on December 26, 2004, at 13:33:08
Oh, and the side effects don't go away, nor do they seem to subside over time.
Linkadge
Posted by mike13 on December 26, 2004, at 18:39:08
In reply to Re: oh ya, forgot..., posted by linkadge on December 26, 2004, at 13:34:27
> Oh, and the side effects don't go away, nor do they seem to subside over time.
>
>
> LinkadgeIC what you mean I experience a significant amount of adverse side effects from the SSRI's that seems to persist months after I discontinue the meds...the SSRi's just seem to alleviate these side effects..not eliminate them completely... but I really wouldn't call it an ADDICTION..because of the context it's usually used in people percieve it as a drug you use because of it's euphoric effects .
Posted by francesco on December 26, 2004, at 19:06:25
In reply to Re: oh ya, forgot..., posted by linkadge on December 26, 2004, at 13:34:27
I obsessed myself a lot with the possibility that I had got persistent damages from antidepressants. Now I'm taking Anafranil and my obsessions are gone ;-)
This discussion is frightening. I don't wanna hear it ! What's the point in thinking that apathy is dued to antidepressans ? Ok, maybe it's true, maybe it's not, we cannot know it, maybe we're apathetic because our life sucks, maybe because we have failed too often, I think that thinking about meds all day long can have the as consequence that we are unable to see the psychological factors of our problems.
Or maybe this is just what my psychologist says : D
Posted by ed_uk on December 26, 2004, at 19:17:10
In reply to Re: oh ya, forgot... » linkadge, posted by francesco on December 26, 2004, at 19:06:25
Hi!
>I think that thinking about meds all day long can have the consequence that we are unable to see the psychological factors of our problems.
I think that this is a very important point.
>What's the point in thinking that apathy is due to antidepressants?
In my case..... because if the apathy IS due to the antidepressant, I need to reduce the dose.
Ed :-)
Posted by MM on December 26, 2004, at 19:30:00
In reply to Re: oh ya, forgot... » linkadge, posted by francesco on December 26, 2004, at 19:06:25
Hey Francesco. I understand what you are saying, but I do think that although this discussion is negative, that it is valid. When I was depressed and not on anything, I wasn't apathetic, I was tearful and in pain constantly, or sleeping to escape it. While on just SSRI's I became apathetic and also extremely agitated while still being depressed (although I had energy I was still in a very negative state), which is a bad combination. I had most of the side effects Linkadge described when he/she is off SSRI's while on them and that's why now I'm dx'd BPII. Being on a mood stabilizer and Klonopin, I can sort of handle an SSRI, though I don't like it. Wellbutrin has been the only antidepressant I "like." Even while not on anything else it was the one that I took with the least problem (which is often the case with Bipolars, which is why they are supposed to try Wellbutrin before other AD's). Anyway, my point is that I although I am not doing as good as I have been able to, I am not in the depths of a depression and even when I was doing really well on meds, I still didn't think SSRI's were all they're cracked up to be and the truth is they caused me a lot of problem. I think a fair view of the meds has to include the good and bad. The problems with the SSRI's are valid and that has become more clear now. But, I do apologize if the negativity has been offensive to you (sincerely). And I also think that spending too much time thinking about your disorder and the meds can be a bad thing, like you said.
Meg
Posted by MM on December 26, 2004, at 19:34:35
In reply to Re: oh ya, forgot..., posted by mike13 on December 26, 2004, at 12:48:40
Just out of curiosity, have you tried Wellbutrin? It was the only AD I could really handle. Klonopin really helped me as well. I'm diagnosed BPII though, but my symptoms are pretty much just depression and anxiety. The SSRI's drove me up the wall while not being on anything else, but Wellbutrin was a little better, so I just thought if you haven't tried it, maybe you might want to...maybe add it or try it on its own.
Meg
Posted by linkadge on December 26, 2004, at 19:40:39
In reply to To Francesco, posted by ed_uk on December 26, 2004, at 19:17:10
I don't want to take a pill to take away the thoughts that I might be dammaging my brain.
It's not really obsession. Its a simple fact that I the *only* problem that I had before I took SSRI's was that I was a little bit blue.
If I discontinue after this time (5 years) I have significantly more problems than I ever even dreamed were possable. They don't go away, they don't subside, they don't lessen.
They don't hesitate to call the benzodiazapines addicting, because they cause withdrawl and a contstant steady dose seems to loose its effect over time. Well guess what, citalopram (for me) causes withdrawl and it has lost its effect over time. I call that addicting.
Linkadge
Posted by ed_uk on December 26, 2004, at 20:04:37
In reply to Re: To Francesco, posted by linkadge on December 26, 2004, at 19:40:39
Hi,
SSRIs are associated with physical dependence- the medical profession seems to be having great difficulty grasping this concept. I think that many doctors just don't want to admit that they were wrong. Also, they don't want to admit to themselves that the drugs that they prescribe on a daily basis cause a significant amount of damage as well as benefit.
As someone on p-babble pointed out not so long ago, the medical profession as a whole suffers from 'splitting' when it comes to drugs, rather than adopting a balanced view of a particular drug's risks and benefits, drugs are viewed as being all 'bad ' or all 'good'.
In the UK....
SSRI in particular are seen as being 'good' drugs.
Benzodiazepines are seen as being 'bad' drugs.
Prozac is praised. Benzos are sneered at. The last time I went to my GP he immediately gave me a repeat prescription for citalopram- no questions asked. My request for a *few* diazepam tablets was laughed at. He said: 'It was wrong of your psychiatrist to prescribe you any diazepam at all'. This is coming from a man who doesn't even know me!
The medical profession is unacceptably slow at accepting the side effects of the drugs that doctors prescribe. When the next 'cure all' turns up, patients' requests for SSRIs may well be sneered at.
Ed.
Posted by MM on December 26, 2004, at 20:22:00
In reply to Re: To Francesco » linkadge, posted by ed_uk on December 26, 2004, at 20:04:37
It would have been "unethical" to prescribe me a benzo when I first asked for one when I was about 14, but I really believe it would have saved me and my life could have gone a much different way. Maybe if I had told them I using alcohol to deal with my anxiety (since 12?). Then again that might have made them more reluctant...ah well. I was scared away from them for a long time, but always had a suspician they might help, and they did.
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