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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2004, at 19:05:01
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 18:24:57
I don't see the point really. There was a thread here a while ago in which many people agreed that SSRI's were as addictive if not more addictive than benzo's.
The push to get people off benzo's and onto SSRI's is/was absolutely retarded. Some people have been on a benzo without adjustment sucessfully for decades, only to be swiched to something that has more side effects, doesn't work as well, and is harder to get off.
Linkadge
Posted by Glydin on November 27, 2004, at 19:08:46
In reply to questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 17:01:20
I feel alot of our world operates on fear and fear producing information seems to be primarly what I find when I research ANYTHING via the 'net.
The benzo issue is near and dear to my heart and I do tire of feeling like the ONLY person on earth who does not have a horror story. Yet, even with what I know, at every turn, I have found info that disputes long term successful is even a possiblity. I am so thankful for a doc who will work with me. I try to be comfortable with my truth and realize some sources of information are just not valid. My anxiety disorder does make it difficult for me to be objective and not be
hypervigilent, effected, and bothered.I also agree with what a very wise person told me a few years ago: "Don't go looking on the internet for happy stories, they are few a far between".
Posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 19:12:59
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by linkadge on November 27, 2004, at 19:05:01
Doctors only really accepted the fact that benzos can cause a strong physical dependence when SSRIs were introduced. When a completely new class of antidepressants/anxiolytics are introduced, doctors will finally accept that SSRIs create physical dependence. SSRIs are not 'addictive' like opiates- they do, however, cause dependence. The medical profession, as always, will be very slow to accept this.
Ed.
Posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 19:16:09
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by Glydin on November 27, 2004, at 19:08:46
Hi Glydin,
People who respond well to medication without major side effects are MUCH less likely to post their stories on the internet!
Ed.
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 19:18:07
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 18:24:57
Thanks Ed. I now have a full blown debilitating anxiety disorder post benzo, with at times almost unbearable physical symptoms. The meds were prescribed for sleep and work stress, though I was still living a vibrant life. I got no warning like that UK document, orally or written, only a statement that the meds "may be habit forming if taken for longer than directed by your doctor." I got off the meds due to tolerance issues, though I understand this is not an issue with many people. And I do not have months and months or years to go through horrors. So I was interested in white people thought of those sites and this internet movement. This has scared the living blank out of me and I know it is not helping my anxiety.
Posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 19:31:06
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 19:18:07
Hi Paul,
Perhaps you could try to find the minimum dose of diazepam which will prevent your withdrawal symptoms. eg. try 2mg/day for a week.....
........if this is inadequate increase to 4mg/day for a week.............
........if this is inadequate increase to 6mg/day for a week........ and so on until you find the smallest dose which is enough to prevent withdrawal symptoms.Once your withdrawal symptoms are under control you could consider finding another way of dealing with your anxiety eg. another medication or a psychological technique such as CBT.
When your anxiety has been reduced by the new medication or psychological treatment you could reduce the diazepam very slowly in order to withdraw completely eg. reduce by 0.5mg/day every 2 weeks. Diazepam syrup can be used to allow very gradual dose reduction. Alternatively, if you didn't want to withdraw then that would also be OK.
Regards,
Ed.
Posted by Glydin on November 27, 2004, at 19:31:38
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 19:16:09
Very true, Ed.
I guess, yet again, I am a rule exception. (smile)
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 19:34:01
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 19:16:09
All is wisdom from you fine people. Now if I can find a way to stop vibrating half the day,get rid of these burning sensations, and end the major throat tightness, tremor, and palps in response to run of the mill everyday stressors then I can get out, earn some money, and keep a roof over my head. I live in a country that is not very compassionate torward people in such situations... Now my doc, he will get out the Paxil samples. And I think he may be like every other doc I have been to about this, disbelieving that I did not have these troubles before the Xanax and Valium. But I know the truth... At least this doc is a nice guy. Not like the others that had this "yea you scumbag drug addict" look in their eyes.
Posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 19:39:14
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 19:34:01
I find it funny that your doctors give you samples of drugs. That never happens in England!
The Paxil might treat some of your anxiety but it won't get rid of all the withdrawal symptoms. For that, you need to find the lowest possible dose of diazepam. Once you've done that, you might want to consider Paxil. Don't forget that Paxil sometimes causes severe withdrawal symptoms when it is stopped!Ed
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 19:48:46
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 19:39:14
Ed,
I tapered off Diazepam pretty slowly, and I was never anywhere near asymptomatic below about 20 mgs. Now my concern is becoming physically dependant on diazepam again and perhaps never solving the withdrawal. So you got the withdrawals, the dependence, and another taper to do which is no fun. But something has to give soon as I must function. I have metaprolol (beta blocker) for palps but it solves no other symptoms. I have heard that Inderal is better though. You are right, Paxil has withdrawals all its own. But not this 10 months, 2, 3 years worth of it that they claim on these benzo reocvery sites. Really appreciate your attention.:-)
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2004, at 19:54:27
In reply to questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 17:01:20
Paul,
You wrote,[....what is accurate and what is not?...].
I was one that was addicted to bzd by way of being prescribed the drug by a neurologist for another condition.
I overcame the addiction and withdrawal and have offered my experiance to help others to be free from the withdrawal and addiction.
As one to experiance these things, I could offer some of what I have experianced in relation to your question as to what is accurate and what is not as experiancing and perhaps be of some benifit to your concerns.
Lou
Posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 19:58:10
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 19:48:46
Hi,
Even though you needed 20mg/day in the past doesn't mean that you would need that much now. Being off the diazepam for a while may have reversed some of your tolerance, meaning you might be able to get by on a much smaller dose.
Would it be so bad to be on diazepam again? Did you have a lot of side effects?
Perhaps if you did go back on diazepam you could treat your remaining anxiety with another med which is less likely to be associated with tolerance. You don't have to be diazepam free, do you? Dependence is nothing to be ashamed off, despite what you may feel. Dependence on diazpam is mainly physiological, it is not a sign of weakness.
Regards,
Ed.Inderal is good for palps and tremor. Not much else!
Posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 20:01:23
In reply to Re: questions, internet anti-benzo movement, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 19:48:46
Sorry, I forgot to ask you how slowly you tapered from diazepam.
Ed
Posted by Fallen4MyT on November 27, 2004, at 20:08:07
In reply to Re: To Paul, posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 19:58:10
I have taken valium for MANY years for anxiety..I have taken breaks from the meds up to 2-3 years...I personally think a taper is the wise and safest way to go. You know if you do say 20 mg cut to 15 and a half for a month and so on. When you think about it benzos get a bad rap...IMO because they are cheap. We depend on drugs like insulin, SSRI's (ya get withdrawals with them too they use the PC term discontinuation syndrome) and high blood pressure meds to name a few. If I went off my high blood pressure meds I would have a hypertensive crisis as one can going off many meds. You may wanna taper and or add Neurontin if you can tolerate it to help with withdrawal they use it in many treatment centers. Good luck. It's my opinion no other drug is as good as a benzo for anxiety
Posted by JACJ on November 27, 2004, at 20:18:37
In reply to Lou's response to Paul Smith-bzd » Paul Smith, posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2004, at 19:54:27
I was addicted to benzos and withdrawal was hell. I am off of them almost 9 months and still am going thru a little of w/d. I did come off of 3 mgs. of Ativan in 4 weeks. I am totally against the drug b/c of many reasons. benzo.org.uk saved my life and am so thankful. I am drug free for alomst 9 months now and feel better than ever. Yes, I do get my days but that is to be expected.
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2004, at 20:34:57
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Paul Smith-bzd, posted by JACJ on November 27, 2004, at 20:18:37
JACJ,
You wrote,[...was addicted...off 9 months... still ,...a little...better than ever...].
I have been off bzd for over 7 years.
Lou
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 20:38:14
In reply to Lou's response to Paul Smith-bzd » Paul Smith, posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2004, at 19:54:27
<<Paul,
You wrote,[....what is accurate and what is not?...].
I was one that was addicted to bzd by way of being prescribed the drug by a neurologist for another condition.
I overcame the addiction and withdrawal and have offered my experiance to help others to be free from the withdrawal and addiction.
As one to experiance these things, I could offer some of what I have experianced in relation to your question as to what is accurate and what is not as experiancing and perhaps be of some benifit to your concerns.
Lou>>Lou thanks very much. There is a lot I`d like to ask but I do not know if it would be appropriate to maybe risk overusing this site. I`d be glad to post my personal e-mail address. Is that allowed here? I came off about 2 months and a week ago but took a couple of doses on a bad day 5 days ago. I need to get back to work and living, have been cooped up four months. I hope to find practical strategies.
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2004, at 20:51:37
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Paul Smith-bzd, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 20:38:14
Paul,
You wrote,[...would like to ask...risk overusing this site....email ...need to get back ...to living...hope to find practical stratgies...].
I feel better posting on a site than emailing because others can add to the discussion. I am all for helping anyone find practical stratagies.
Lou
Posted by linkadge on November 27, 2004, at 21:01:24
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Paul Smith-bzd, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 20:38:14
The paxil may help some of the symptoms as SSRI's indirectly increase gaba levels in the brain.
You may want to take an SSRI and a GABAergic anticonvulsant.
As well, zyprexa increases the concentrations of a potent GABAergic neurosteroid (can't spell it..something like alpregnalone)
What about say lyrica and paxil ??
Linkadge
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 21:03:05
In reply to Re: To Paul, posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 19:58:10
<<Hi,
Even though you needed 20mg/day in the past doesn't mean that you would need that much now. Being off the diazepam for a while may have reversed some of your tolerance, meaning you might be able to get by on a much smaller dose.
Would it be so bad to be on diazepam again? Did you have a lot of side effects?
Perhaps if you did go back on diazepam you could treat your remaining anxiety with another med which is less likely to be associated with tolerance. You don't have to be diazepam free, do you? Dependence is nothing to be ashamed off, despite what you may feel. Dependence on diazpam is mainly physiological, it is not a sign of weakness.
Regards,
Ed.>>Ed you are correct, no shame at all in dependence. And if I could erase these symptoms and stay at a reasonable dose for life with no withdrawals problems I would do it in a second. But considering my tolerance history, I have my doubts. It is sad actually. These drugs are great for anxiety, but some of us have real trouble with them.
Yes, I actually do have tolerance reversal from being off two months. When I took a 10 mg Valium early this week it knocked me back, where before I did not even feel that amount. That is pretty good proof.
By the way, I love this site. First time I have discussed this matter in an open forum, all views welcome. Have wanted this for a very long time.
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 21:20:07
In reply to Lou's reply to Paul Smith- » Paul Smith, posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2004, at 20:51:37
<<Paul,
You wrote,[...would like to ask...risk overusing this site....email ...need to get back ...to living...hope to find practical stratgies...].
I feel better posting on a site than emailing because others can add to the discussion. I am all for helping anyone find practical stratagies.
Lou>>That is fine with me and apparently longer discussions are appropriate. My initial post contained a lot of details regarding what I have read on the net. Would you be willing to analyze it, tell us what is true, what is questionable, and why? Does zealotry and/fanaticism, paranoia ever exist to any real degree, and cloud the truth here? Could reading some of these testimonies and claims, that it often takes a very long time to recover, if at all completely, create severe anxiety in and of itself, eg. self fulfilling prophecy? What about the claims of the "chemicals" found in foods, drink, all sorts of pills that supposedly make withdrawals worse?
So I got off two months ago. I tapered pretty slow. I did take a couple of doses early this week but backed off. What do you suggest from here? Thanks. Congrats on being off 7 years. :-)
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 21:30:12
In reply to Re: To Paul, posted by ed_uk on November 27, 2004, at 20:01:23
<<Sorry, I forgot to ask you how slowly you tapered from diazepam.>>
Ed1 mg a week usually, sometimes sat still longer. Took about 7 months. Was painful, tolerance the whole way.
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 21:35:31
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Paul Smith-bzd, posted by linkadge on November 27, 2004, at 21:01:24
What about say lyrica and paxil ??Linkadge
Yea, doc has wanted me on an SSRI since the beginning. I have steadiy refused as so many on the net withdrawing from benzos report bad experiences. I did try Paxil once for 3 weeks before this benzo problem. No adverse affects at all. Not sure if that would still hold true. Have a Zoloft starter kit in the drawer but it is reportedly not as good on anxiety.
Posted by Lou Pilder on November 27, 2004, at 21:42:43
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to Paul Smith-, posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 21:20:07
Paul,
You wrote,[...would you be willing to tell me what is true, what is questionable...claimes...].
I can tell you what I have experianced. I have been on the benzo board advocating the writings by Dr. Heather Ashton, and others. So I am familiar with a lot of the writings from others on these boards and have corrosponded with the owners and some of the principle members.
But what I have to offer here comes from a different perspective than the others. The perspective that I have has to do with what the drug is and how it was founded and marketed and what it does to you. Then, there is a remedy that worked for me that is different from the method advocated by a lot of the internet benzo boards.
So in my "method" one overcomes the addiction and depression and the withdrawal by a differant means than of tapering and taking other drugs such that you describe in your post as to what you would like to know as true or not. I can only tell you what is true to me, for I did not follow the other methods, but those could also be ways to withdrawal.
Lou
Posted by Paul Smith on November 27, 2004, at 21:43:34
In reply to VALIUM, posted by Fallen4MyT on November 27, 2004, at 20:08:07
<<Good luck. It's my opinion no other drug is as good as a benzo for anxiety>>
Thanks for your help. Yep, they are great on anxiety but the withdrawals for me have been murder. I assumed I needed to get off them. I was in tolerance for a while but I could have possibly settled at a dose. This was never suggested to me, on the net, or at the doc`s office. Doc hears of trouble they want to pull you off.
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