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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by cybercafe on November 3, 2004, at 16:36:45
one thing i've noticed about bipolars i've met outside of support groups etc (i.e. those who are successful) is that they all seem to be manic whenever i meet them and none of them seem to have anything above even the mildest of anxiety disorders.
I basically need at least 2 mg of clonazepam everytime I have to sit still (maybe this is an ADD thing who knows -- i also have ADD).
can most bipolars function without taking large quantities of benzos on a consistent basis??
Posted by linkadge on November 3, 2004, at 16:59:31
In reply to Bipolars in real life, posted by cybercafe on November 3, 2004, at 16:36:45
Some bipolars have co-existing anxiety disorders, and others don't.
One of the problems I have a hard time admitting to is the following: Bipolars have a tendancy of getting involved in things that are too complicated for them. I'm stuck half way through a univerity program, starting which I now realize was a poor decision that I made while hypomanic.
Now, I have a lot of anxiety because I've got in over my head.
Non bipolar people are probably more able to quantify their strengths and weaknesses, and avoid potentially anxiety provoking situations.
Linkadge
Posted by Squiggles on November 3, 2004, at 19:42:58
In reply to Re: Bipolars in real life, posted by linkadge on November 3, 2004, at 16:59:31
As a diagnosed Beeper (with some doubts
from the medical circles), I do have
a tendency to be impulsive.However, that is a character trait, and
I have other character traits, such
as shyness, underchiever, low self-esteem,
and a mousy, librarian type life which
does not fit the "stigmatization".I think that personality analysis should
really be left out of diagnosis. I think
that diagnosing severe mental illness should
start with the brain. Just my opinion and
probably outside the DSM IV boundaries.Squiggles
Posted by Ritch on November 4, 2004, at 10:20:39
In reply to Bipolars in real life, posted by cybercafe on November 3, 2004, at 16:36:45
> one thing i've noticed about bipolars i've met outside of support groups etc (i.e. those who are successful) is that they all seem to be manic whenever i meet them and none of them seem to have anything above even the mildest of anxiety disorders.
>
> I basically need at least 2 mg of clonazepam everytime I have to sit still (maybe this is an ADD thing who knows -- i also have ADD).
>
> can most bipolars function without taking large quantities of benzos on a consistent basis??
Just a thought.. but if I'm not manic nobody ever suspects that I'm bipolar (no evidence of it and no willingness on my part to talk about it), and if it is a euphoric mania I have no anxiety whastsoever. There is a feeling of complete control over everything and confidence that eliminates the anxiety. So, maybe some of those "successful" bipolars might not seem so anxiety-free should you happen to see them in a depressive cycle. There is "cyclicity" to my anxiety levels. I went for many years without any benzos-just lithium or antidepressants. When you talk about being "unable to sit still"-that may have something to do with something that you are *taking* causing the restlessness, IOW a med-induced restlessness (an AP or AD or stim). Akathisia can be tough to separate from generalized anxiety.
Posted by linkadge on November 4, 2004, at 10:56:06
In reply to Re: Bipolars in real life » cybercafe, posted by Ritch on November 4, 2004, at 10:20:39
In my first and second years of university I was probably hypomanic. It was all just a big game to me, with no consequences. I did great. I got very high marks etc.
Anyhow, soon later I crashed so low it was unbelievable. The game changed and now it was about fear and anxiety.
I'm just on lithium now but am having a real hard time regaining that sence of confidence.
I have found that, I do best in something when my brain has determined it is unimportant. As soon as something is important, I will inevitably fail.
Thats why I do so well in hypomania, because I have no fear of the consequences.
Linkadge
Posted by Squiggles on November 4, 2004, at 10:59:55
In reply to question for rich, posted by linkadge on November 4, 2004, at 10:56:06
Sorry, i'm not too sharp this a.m.,
how do you regulate (if you do) whether
you are on hypomania or not - does it
just happen despite the lithium?Squiggles
Posted by cybercafe on November 4, 2004, at 12:45:50
In reply to Re: Bipolars in real life, posted by linkadge on November 3, 2004, at 16:59:31
> Some bipolars have co-existing anxiety disorders, and others don't.
>
> One of the problems I have a hard time admitting to is the following: Bipolars have a tendancy of getting involved in things that are too complicated for them. I'm stuck half way through a univerity program, starting which I now realize was a poor decision that I made while hypomanic.
>
> Now, I have a lot of anxiety because I've got in over my head.
>
> Non bipolar people are probably more able to quantify their strengths and weaknesses, and avoid potentially anxiety provoking situations.
>
>
> Linkadge
>i think most of the bipolars i met in support groups seem to have anxiety disorders (and did very little with their time) whereas most of the successful ones i met in real life didn't...
though i suppose there may be successful bipolars that have anxiety disorders whom i am just less likely to meet - because they are anxious around people - (then again, i have a major anxiety disorder but still socialize quite a bit, so who knows)...
i am just starting to hypothesize that high functioning vs. low functioning (GAF score?) probably has a lot to do with whether or not there is a comorbid anxiety disorder present. Or maybe I just push myself too hard -- linkadge, even when i was depressed or stable i still underestimated the difficulty of the tasks i was undertaking.I am also currently taking courses much more difficult than I would have anticipated .... though perhaps more difficult than I *could* have anticipated.... bad luck is bad luck
Posted by cybercafe on November 4, 2004, at 12:48:15
In reply to Re: Bipolars in real life, posted by Squiggles on November 3, 2004, at 19:42:58
> However, that is a character trait, and
> I have other character traits, such
> as shyness, underchiever, low self-esteem,
> and a mousy, librarian type life which
> does not fit the "stigmatization".yeah ... i didn't know they didn't fit the stigmatization. but the underachiever and low self esteem i think comes a lot from ADD in my case
>
> I think that personality analysis should
> really be left out of diagnosis. I think
> that diagnosing severe mental illness should
> start with the brain. Just my opinion and
> probably outside the DSM IV boundaries.
>
> Squigglesyeah most doctors i speak with tell me this is impossible, or highly impractical, however
Posted by cybercafe on November 4, 2004, at 12:51:06
In reply to Re: Bipolars in real life » cybercafe, posted by Ritch on November 4, 2004, at 10:20:39
> > one thing i've noticed about bipolars i've met outside of support groups etc (i.e. those who are successful) is that they all seem to be manic whenever i meet them and none of them seem to have anything above even the mildest of anxiety disorders.
> >
> > I basically need at least 2 mg of clonazepam everytime I have to sit still (maybe this is an ADD thing who knows -- i also have ADD).
> >
> > can most bipolars function without taking large quantities of benzos on a consistent basis??
>
>
> Just a thought.. but if I'm not manic nobody ever suspects that I'm bipolar (no evidence of it and no willingness on my part to talk about it), and if it is a euphoric mania I have no anxiety whastsoever. There is a feeling of complete control over everything and confidence that eliminates the anxiety. So, maybe some of those "successful" bipolars might not seem so anxiety-free should you happen to see them in a depressive cycle. There is "cyclicity" to my anxiety levels. I went for many years without any benzos-just lithium or antidepressants. When you talk about being "unable to sit still"-that may have something to do with something that you are *taking* causing the restlessness, IOW a med-induced restlessness (an AP or AD or stim). Akathisia can be tough to separate from generalized anxiety.... i'm not currently on an antipsychotic ...
are you talking about type I mania or type II mania (hypomania?) ...
yeah I would say my anxiety is reduced when I am more manic, but definately never gone completely (i.e. i still cannot exist without benzos).... though perhaps some of this is due to mania = take on more responsibility = more stress and anxiety
Posted by cybercafe on November 4, 2004, at 12:52:16
In reply to question for rich, posted by linkadge on November 4, 2004, at 10:56:06
> In my first and second years of university I was probably hypomanic. It was all just a big game to me, with no consequences. I did great. I got very high marks etc.
>
> Anyhow, soon later I crashed so low it was unbelievable. The game changed and now it was about fear and anxiety.
>
> I'm just on lithium now but am having a real hard time regaining that sence of confidence.
>
> I have found that, I do best in something when my brain has determined it is unimportant. As soon as something is important, I will inevitably fail.
> Thats why I do so well in hypomania, because I have no fear of the consequences.
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>
>i think "flow" would be an excellent book for you
Posted by Squiggles on November 4, 2004, at 12:58:02
In reply to Re: Bipolars in real life, posted by cybercafe on November 4, 2004, at 12:48:15
Yes, we are not there yet; hence
the mistakes in diagnosis. I consider
myself lucky as i have read on NAMI
(i think) that 1 in 10 psychiatric
diagnoses may be correct.Squiggles
Posted by Ritch on November 5, 2004, at 10:11:32
In reply to question for rich, posted by linkadge on November 4, 2004, at 10:56:06
> In my first and second years of university I was probably hypomanic. It was all just a big game to me, with no consequences. I did great. I got very high marks etc.
>
> Anyhow, soon later I crashed so low it was unbelievable. The game changed and now it was about fear and anxiety.
>
> I'm just on lithium now but am having a real hard time regaining that sence of confidence.
>
> I have found that, I do best in something when my brain has determined it is unimportant. As soon as something is important, I will inevitably fail.
> Thats why I do so well in hypomania, because I have no fear of the consequences.
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>
>There was something else I thought about after my posting... Whenever I am in a euphoric mania without anxiety I'm goal directed. Anxiety seems to evaporate when you are pursuing something with avid enthusiasm and the mania keeps that fueled up, so you are confident. When I get depressed the world crashes inward on me and I feel attacked and defensive-no goals worthy of pursuing, unable to 'fight'-that's when the doom and anxiety ratchet way up. The lack of interest (lack of dopamine?) takes all the energy out of goal-directed behavior of *any* kind and you just veg out and have negative ruminations. The big trick is to get interests fired up over *ordinary everyday* goals and maintain some steady stability and pull to accomplish them. That's where the 'deficit syndrome' and the ADD elements of bipolar are the most devastating (in depression esp).
Posted by Ritch on November 5, 2004, at 10:17:40
In reply to Re: Bipolars in real life, posted by cybercafe on November 4, 2004, at 12:51:06
> are you talking about type I mania or type II mania (hypomania?) ...
I just think it is simpler to say "manic" instead of "hypomanic". My 'hypo'manias have been as intense as what many people describe as 'fullblown' mania---it is the duration that determines the 'definition'. The same processes are probably at work at the time it is perceived.
Posted by J. Backer on November 5, 2004, at 10:36:28
In reply to Bipolars in real life, posted by cybercafe on November 3, 2004, at 16:36:45
have any of you guys ever heard of this book called "electroboy" its an auto-biography about a really bi-polar guy in NYC and all the crazy things he does when he goes through his cycles. he talks about what drugs hes on, his Pdocs and eventually his ECT. its a tight book and im guessing its a good read for us psycho-babblers. peace J
Posted by Squiggles on November 5, 2004, at 10:48:28
In reply to Re: Bipolars in real life, posted by J. Backer on November 5, 2004, at 10:36:28
Yes, i have heard of it -- on my
list; tx for the reminder :-)Squiggles
Posted by cybercafe on November 15, 2004, at 9:55:04
In reply to Re: question for rich » linkadge, posted by Ritch on November 5, 2004, at 10:11:32
> > In my first and second years of university I was probably hypomanic. It was all just a big game to me, with no consequences. I did great. I got very high marks etc.
> >
> > Anyhow, soon later I crashed so low it was unbelievable. The game changed and now it was about fear and anxiety.
> >
> > I'm just on lithium now but am having a real hard time regaining that sence of confidence.
> >
> > I have found that, I do best in something when my brain has determined it is unimportant. As soon as something is important, I will inevitably fail.
> > Thats why I do so well in hypomania, because I have no fear of the consequences.
> >
> >
> > Linkadge
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> There was something else I thought about after my posting... Whenever I am in a euphoric mania without anxiety I'm goal directed. Anxiety seems to evaporate when you are pursuing something with avid enthusiasm and the mania keeps that fueled up, so you are confident. When I get depressed the world crashes inward on me and I feel attacked and defensive-no goals worthy of pursuing, unable to 'fight'-that's when the doom and anxiety ratchet way up. The lack of interest (lack of dopamine?) takes all the energy out of goal-directed behavior of *any* kind and you just veg out and have negative ruminations. The big trick is to get interests fired up over *ordinary everyday* goals and maintain some steady stability and pull to accomplish them. That's where the 'deficit syndrome' and the ADD elements of bipolar are the most devastating (in depression esp).
i've thought a lot about what you said (in first message and followup) and it seems very much to be true -- in my case at least -- i certainly have the same experience with ADD but don't know to what degree i want to want to be motivated by ordinary everyday goals. i probably just have some limiting beliefs that i can only be motivated to exceptional things by pain and not pleasure
Posted by Ritch on November 15, 2004, at 11:08:38
In reply to Re: question for rich, posted by cybercafe on November 15, 2004, at 9:55:04
> > > In my first and second years of university I was probably hypomanic. It was all just a big game to me, with no consequences. I did great. I got very high marks etc.
> > >
> > > Anyhow, soon later I crashed so low it was unbelievable. The game changed and now it was about fear and anxiety.
> > >
> > > I'm just on lithium now but am having a real hard time regaining that sence of confidence.
> > >
> > > I have found that, I do best in something when my brain has determined it is unimportant. As soon as something is important, I will inevitably fail.
> > > Thats why I do so well in hypomania, because I have no fear of the consequences.
> > >
> > >
> > > Linkadge
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > There was something else I thought about after my posting... Whenever I am in a euphoric mania without anxiety I'm goal directed. Anxiety seems to evaporate when you are pursuing something with avid enthusiasm and the mania keeps that fueled up, so you are confident. When I get depressed the world crashes inward on me and I feel attacked and defensive-no goals worthy of pursuing, unable to 'fight'-that's when the doom and anxiety ratchet way up. The lack of interest (lack of dopamine?) takes all the energy out of goal-directed behavior of *any* kind and you just veg out and have negative ruminations. The big trick is to get interests fired up over *ordinary everyday* goals and maintain some steady stability and pull to accomplish them. That's where the 'deficit syndrome' and the ADD elements of bipolar are the most devastating (in depression esp).
>
>
> i've thought a lot about what you said (in first message and followup) and it seems very much to be true -- in my case at least -- i certainly have the same experience with ADD but don't know to what degree i want to want to be motivated by ordinary everyday goals. i probably just have some limiting beliefs that i can only be motivated to exceptional things by pain and not pleasureI don't think that I ever have *chosen* to be motivated by everyday things... it just happens. Whenever I have a phase where I am in a "clear spot" (euthymic and motivated-not "high"), that's when I embark on everyday projects that everyday folks do all the time (just putting up a set of bookshelves, ie.). I can plan out what I want.. figure out where to get it ... how to execute it .. and hopefully finish it up. As long as the *span* of time involved isn't too lengthy (before my mood changes)- I can make it happen and am very happy with the results. But, then I cycle into depression and any unfinished plans and projects are abandoned and many are unfortunately half-baked remnants that are nearly completely forgetable and am unable to follow through because the whole process flow was interrupted. It is kind of like waking up in another city and having to start my life over again every few months. ADD meds do help a lot, but it is a real hassle to have one medication help one set of symptoms and then wreak havoc on another set. I feel like I have got an "attentional syndrome" where I have OCD "stickiness" and inability to make decisions which some ADD meds make worse, and then I've got the basic inattentiveness that OCD meds make worse!
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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