![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 13 to 37 of 49. Go back in thread:
Posted by erik98225 on May 16, 2004, at 2:15:32
In reply to Re: social phobia insomnia, benzophobic dr., HELP ME, posted by rvanson on May 16, 2004, at 1:14:14
> Sad to say that it comes to this, but thats what the American HMO system has done to medical care.
I live one mile away from the Canadian border. I have seriously considered falsifying a Canadian birth certificate to have access to the free healthcare.
LOL.
Posted by erik98225 on May 16, 2004, at 2:22:14
In reply to Re: Why not benzos for sleep? » Guy, posted by Caper on May 16, 2004, at 1:19:53
> I guess people's concern, which is valid I think, is that some people cannot control their usage and may wind up addicted, conning doctors out of more pills, seeing more than one doctor, using the meds in the daytime too...that sort of thing.
My pdoc doesn't want to prescribe me benzos because I have "alcohol dependence", and with benzos you're basically getting alcohol in a pill.
I disagree with his diagnosis of me as an alcoholic. I can't imagine having a drink with dinner. I don't want to get high -- I want to EAT! I don't like to get drunk, and I don't even THINK about alcohol until late at night, when I say "some beer would feel really good right now. Time to calm down, so I can sleep."
During my numerous arguments with my pdoc over the relative risks and benefits of benzos, I have asked "can't you write me a non-refillable rx for like a 14 day supply, to just SEE if it works?" I mentioned that "I can have a roommate dispense the pills so I won't get drunk of them" -- and he STILL won't budge.
Posted by erik98225 on May 16, 2004, at 2:23:24
In reply to Re: social phobia insomnia, benzophobic dr., HELP ME, posted by Keith Talent on May 16, 2004, at 1:24:36
> I consider it outrageous that you were labelled an alcoholic when you were drinking four beers a day. In any case, if the physician thinks you are dependent, she should have given you a benzo to blunt the withdrawal effects. Also, acamprosate is being marketed to reduce alcohol cravings. I don't have any experience of it/don't know if it really works.
Turns out it wasn't alcohol withdrawal.
Just a return of the anxiety that always kept me awake before I started drinking.
Posted by Caper on May 16, 2004, at 2:30:01
In reply to social phobia insomnia, benzophobic dr., HELP ME, posted by erik98225 on May 15, 2004, at 5:01:07
Hi Erik,
I couldn't help being drawn to your message. You sound so much like I was about a year and a half ago. Depression and PTSD gave me such anxiety and insomnia that when I discovered alcohol I thought "This is GREAT! It's affordable, legal, and I can get as much as I want!" But it's a cruel, evil trap. Whatever happens you need to stop the alcohol, even if it means an in-patient detox program. I started out like you, drinking a moderate amount for sleep and ended up drinking 6 bottles of wine or a litre of vodka a day- and this progression took only about 9 months. I gained about 60lbs myself, til I switched from wine to hard liquor. Don't let this happen to you!
As far as sleep goes, have you ever tried trazadone? It's technically an antidepressant, but it's so sedating that it usually cannot be used for that because few people can tolerate the therapeutic dosage. It's not considered addictive and is also very inexpensive. There are really quite a few meds out there that are not technically "sleeping pills" but will definitely put you out for the night!
As far as your psychiatrist, if he's diagnosed you as "alcohol dependent" then he is supposed to treat it- and NOT by making you suffer with no meds. Alcohol withdrawal can be quite dangerous really- heart rate, blood pressure go up, chance of seizures exist. (Not meaning to scare you, just to give you things to remind your doctor!) Some docs seem to have "detox" and "withdrawal" confused. Detox is a controlled stopping of the alcohol use. Withdrawal is just letting the patient suffer.
If your doc has diagnosed you as alcohol dependent then he needs to TREAT it, not just let you suffer. His concern might be that you will mix alcohol and benzos with potentially fatal consequences. But if he's willing and you're willing, I've heard of people getting only a few days worth of Ativan, Valium, Librium or whatever at a time. Yes you'd have to keep picking up scripts every few days, but it should help the doc be sure you are taking the pills as prescribed, not using them all up in one day for a "high". He can also slowly taper the dosage of the benzos to make sure you don't become addicted/dependent on a benzo in place of alcohol.
This can work for some people, but others need an in-patient detox program to start off with. This is valuable in two ways: First: they give you benzos and slowly taper them based on how bad your physical and mental withdrawal symptoms are. Second: a general psychiatric admission would give you a chance to come up with better meds than you are on now, since they are obviously not working as well as they should- otherwise you'd be able to control the social phobia AND be able to get regular sleep without alcohol.
As a last resort, I have to admit that I once went to a new doctor and did not admit my alcoholism- only my PTSD and sleep problems. I got a fairly generous prescription for benzos, but decided to check into a short term detox program anyway. (When I realized I doubted my ability to stay off the alcohol even with Valium at my side.)
Anyway, I'm not advocating lying to doctors, but I think an un-medicated detox is just plain cruel and pointless. It happened to me too and it's one of the worst memories of my life.
Bottom line (sorry, I know I ramble, but I just have very strong feelings about this subject) is maybe you need a psychiatrist who is more educated on substance abuse. He should at least have given you information on detox programs!
One last thing: you say you know "you deserve it". That is not true. No one picks up the drink thinking "let's get addicted, that would be so cool!" You were right when you said you were self-medicating- you were trying to feel better, not do something bad. Try not to beat yourself up too much about that okay?
I'm all the way across the country from you so I can't help out with doctor referrals, but I wish you the best of luck. If you want to know anything about inpatient detox, feel free to ask. I'll be glad to answer any questions I can.
Best of luck,
Caper
[email protected]
> I have social phobia and have always had a heck of a time getting to sleep. It takes a long time to fall asleep, but once I am asleep I sleep like a baby.
>
> A few months back I discovered that 3-4 beers in the evening makes me fall asleep fast and gives me a feeling of peace like nothing else can.
>
> I was stupid enough to discuss this with my doctor, so now I have alcohol dependence in my medical records.
>
> While drinking I gained 30 pounds, hated the hangovers, and decided last week that this needs to stop.
>
> I am now two days into the horror that is alcohol withdrawal.
>
> I have been awake for 37 hours.
>
> Alcohol withdrawal will make your worst case of the flu feel like an orgasm.
>
> I know I deserve it -- it's my punishment for beating up my liver -- and I know it passes, but the thing is, I drank alcohol because it worked.
>
> I am convinced that I have the "overactive brain" component of alcohol dependence (I don't have a link, but I know I read about it on this board... I drank alcohol in an attempt to calm down the brain to a more normal state.)
>
> Benzos are alcohol pills, and alcohol is a liquid benzo.
>
> I have mentioned this to my doctor many, many times, and told him that the drinking was a desperate attempt to self-medicate, but he simply WILL NOT write a prescription for benzos "because they are addictive".
>
> Yes, they are addictive. Big deal. Would you deny morphine to a terminally ill cancer patient just because he might get addicted to it? And isn't it better to be addicted to benzos than addicted to alcohol?
>
> I take Paxil 20mg. It was effective for the social phobia until the drinking rendered it useless, but it never did anything for me in terms of helping me fall asleep.
>
> Can anyone knowledgeable give me some information I can discuss with my psychiatrist
> to convince him that a benzo is right for me? Anyone have any suggestions for a psychiatrist who is willing to prescribe benzos? (I'm in the Bellingham, Washington area)
>
> Any comments, suggestions, or information would be greatly appreciated. I'm at my wit's end here.> I have social phobia and have always had a heck of a time getting to sleep. It takes a long time to fall asleep, but once I am asleep I sleep like a baby.
>
> A few months back I discovered that 3-4 beers in the evening makes me fall asleep fast and gives me a feeling of peace like nothing else can.
>
> I was stupid enough to discuss this with my doctor, so now I have alcohol dependence in my medical records.
>
> While drinking I gained 30 pounds, hated the hangovers, and decided last week that this needs to stop.
>
> I am now two days into the horror that is alcohol withdrawal.
>
> I have been awake for 37 hours.
>
> Alcohol withdrawal will make your worst case of the flu feel like an orgasm.
>
> I know I deserve it -- it's my punishment for beating up my liver -- and I know it passes, but the thing is, I drank alcohol because it worked.
>
> I am convinced that I have the "overactive brain" component of alcohol dependence (I don't have a link, but I know I read about it on this board... I drank alcohol in an attempt to calm down the brain to a more normal state.)
>
> Benzos are alcohol pills, and alcohol is a liquid benzo.
>
> I have mentioned this to my doctor many, many times, and told him that the drinking was a desperate attempt to self-medicate, but he simply WILL NOT write a prescription for benzos "because they are addictive".
>
> Yes, they are addictive. Big deal. Would you deny morphine to a terminally ill cancer patient just because he might get addicted to it? And isn't it better to be addicted to benzos than addicted to alcohol?
>
> I take Paxil 20mg. It was effective for the social phobia until the drinking rendered it useless, but it never did anything for me in terms of helping me fall asleep.
>
> Can anyone knowledgeable give me some information I can discuss with my psychiatrist
> to convince him that a benzo is right for me? Anyone have any suggestions for a psychiatrist who is willing to prescribe benzos? (I'm in the Bellingham, Washington area)
>
> Any comments, suggestions, or information would be greatly appreciated. I'm at my wit's end here.
Posted by Caper on May 16, 2004, at 2:54:35
In reply to Benzo addiction » Caper, posted by erik98225 on May 16, 2004, at 2:22:14
I understand your frustration, believe me. When I first admitted my problem to my shrink, the first thing she did was stop all my meds that might possibly have addicted me. Honestly I think the docs are worried about legal liability if you DID overdose or get addicted to the pills.
I never drank to get drunk either, I was just so incredibly tense and drinking seemed a harmless, easy solution. But Erik, if you're having physical withdrawal symptoms, I think you probably ARE an alcoholic, or fast on your way to becoming one. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I'm pretty sure it's true.
Is there any chance of switching docs to an addiction specialist? And what about a short term in-patient detox to start you off?
Again (I feel bad saying this) but as a last resort you could always go to one of those walk in medical clinics and say you're having a terrible time sleeping/relaxing at bedtime, that it is affecting your work and/or classes and that you'd tried Valium (or whatever) once before a long time ago and it worked. Say it's a temporary situation (like exam stress, a recent death in the family, dumped your girlfriend...something like that) so they won't be scared you're "drug seeking" and will be back again and again for more and more each time.
You probably will get a pretty stingy prescription, but then it really doesn't take much. I found the 3rd day of detox the hardest as far as irritability and anxiety, though the sleep was better by then.
Anyway, ordinarily I'd never ever suggest keeping info from docs but I think in this case it's the lesser of the two evils. If you keep drinking your use will almost certainly just get worse.
But consider the other suggestions too if you can. Either get a better psychiatrist or think about a short term detox program.
Good luck and let me know how it goes.
> > I guess people's concern, which is valid I think, is that some people cannot control their usage and may wind up addicted, conning doctors out of more pills, seeing more than one doctor, using the meds in the daytime too...that sort of thing.
>
> My pdoc doesn't want to prescribe me benzos because I have "alcohol dependence", and with benzos you're basically getting alcohol in a pill.
>
> I disagree with his diagnosis of me as an alcoholic. I can't imagine having a drink with dinner. I don't want to get high -- I want to EAT! I don't like to get drunk, and I don't even THINK about alcohol until late at night, when I say "some beer would feel really good right now. Time to calm down, so I can sleep."
>
> During my numerous arguments with my pdoc over the relative risks and benefits of benzos, I have asked "can't you write me a non-refillable rx for like a 14 day supply, to just SEE if it works?" I mentioned that "I can have a roommate dispense the pills so I won't get drunk of them" -- and he STILL won't budge.
Posted by harryp on May 16, 2004, at 5:45:18
In reply to social phobia insomnia, benzophobic dr., HELP ME, posted by erik98225 on May 15, 2004, at 5:01:07
Hey!
Sorry about your problems.
Personally, I think benzos might be a problem because your insomnia and social phobia seems so chronic. I don't think dependence is so much an issue as tolerance. If you take a benzo regularly, it tends to lose its effect and you have to raise the dose. [this doesn't always happen, of course]
I've taken ativan for years (2-4mg day depending on situations) and may be dependent (who cares) but I think because my dosing is for "episodes" and is not regular, I haven't ever had to raise my average dose.
I've always noticed that the excessive effect of Trazadone seems to wear off with time. I would seriously consider asking a pharmacist to compound 10 mg capsules, or else just use quarter chunks of the pills (catch the dust over a glass of water before you drink it). Make sure you don't mix it with alcohol, since in my experience that increases the "drug hangover effect."
Posted by Sad Panda on May 16, 2004, at 9:12:22
In reply to Re: No TCAs for me » Sad Panda, posted by erik98225 on May 16, 2004, at 2:04:04
> > What doseage & for how long were you taking Doxepin & Trazodone? It takes a month to get use to Remeron. The antihistamine knockout effects fades away, but sleep still comes very easily when you want it.
>
> I was on 50mg Doxepin for 3 months. I was on 25mg Trazdone for one day.
>
> The trazodone disaster happened about 3 months ago when I came crawling to my pdoc, desperate for "a way to fall asleep without beer". He suggested Imipramine, at which point I launched myself into a heated discussion of tricyclic side effects and specifically asked for "something that's not an antihistamine". He said that trazodone is unrelated to the trycyclics and wouldn't cause those effects.
>
> I took the 25mg of trazodone, and I was OUT within two minutes. You literally have to be already lying in your bed when you take that stuff.
>
> The next morning, I discovered to my horror that trazodone causes all of the antihistamine side effects and more. I was dizzy and faint when I woke up to turn my alarm off. The entire day I literally had to struggle to keep my eyes open. The entire day I felt extremely depressed. I had dry mouth and heart palpitations. I flushed the rest of the trazodone down the toilet that afternoon and I was cursed by these side effects for three more days without taking any more trazodone.
>
> Too high a dose, you say? Well, 25mg is a HALF of the smallest tablet available. Cut it any smaller and all you'd get is dust.
>
> Apparently, any drug that remotely resembles an antihistamine affects me in an extremely bad way -- which is annoying, because I have really bad allergies in the summertime.
>
> I then went back to my pdoc and told him about my not-so-good experience with trazodone, and asked "is there anything like alcohol without hangovers and liver damage". He said "yes, there are benzodiapenzines, but they are addictive."
>
> Then, I asked him, "what would you give me if I was coming to you with JUST A SLEEP PROBLEM?" He said "we don't prescribe Ambien and Sonata unless your mom just died and you have final exams tomorrow." Because they are addictive.
>
> Then, he asked if I'd ever tried Melatonin. I told him that I tried it about a year ago because it was touted as "all-natural" and "no hangover". Well, guess what -- I was cutting the tablets into quarters and eighths and still getting a trazodone-style hangover.
>
> Then, he said "from the melatonin, or the beer you washed it down with?" (I don't think he's ever tasted a beer)
>
> At that, I went apesh_t. "I DIDN'T WASH IT DOWN WITH BEER! EVERY SLEEP MEDICATION I'VE TRIED WAS IN AN ATTEMPT TO FALL ASLEEP WITHOUT BEER!"
>
> All this was prior to starting Paxil, the only medication that's ever done anything helpful for me.
>
> BTW I am 23, male, and 175 lbs.
>
>
> > You can use Benzos for sleep only if the benzos are treating anxiety. The sedative effect goes away very rapidly, but for most people the anxiolytic effects stays. If your sleeplessness is purely from anxiety then benzos will relieve that anxiety & allow you to sleep naturally. If your sleeplessness is due to an over active mind, then beenzos can only be used for a few days.
>
> That is the point. It's not a question of being tired or not, it's a question of am I worrying too much to fall asleep.
>
>Trazodone isn't a antihistamine, Doxepin, OTOH, is. Something they have in common is they are both strong Alpha-1 NE blockers which causes the orthostatic hypotension side effect that most of the TCA's & AP drugs have. I would still recommend a trial of Remeron, it has no A1-NE blockade, so you won't get dissy & fall over. I would start you at 7.5mg. Your Doxepin dose was way too high, 25 mg is generally enough for sleep.
Benzos for sleep probably is a bad idea for you, if you got yourself in to trouble drinking too much beer, you will have the same problem benzos.
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by rvanson on May 16, 2004, at 21:42:48
In reply to Re: social phobia insomnia, benzophobic dr., HELP ME, posted by erik98225 on May 16, 2004, at 2:15:32
> > Sad to say that it comes to this, but thats what the American HMO system has done to medical care.
>
> I live one mile away from the Canadian border. I have seriously considered falsifying a Canadian birth certificate to have access to the free healthcare.
>
> LOL.Yeah, and it would be better healthcare then what is served up here in the US, by all accounts.
One of my favorite doctors committed suicide when the US HMO healthcare system shut his practice down, after they determined that he was giving too much time and tests to his sick patients.
I cant wait to get back at these money-mongers and help get National healthcare online here in the US by voting the Democrat ticket.
Posted by RobertPalsing on May 17, 2004, at 5:50:41
In reply to social phobia insomnia, benzophobic dr., HELP ME, posted by erik98225 on May 15, 2004, at 5:01:07
If you have extreme social phobia and fear of being in social situations, that's definitely high anxiety. This might include racing or uncontrollable thoughts that make life very draining and at the end of the day you might just feel like you want your brain to shut up. Anyway, that was a small tangent.
I told my doctor something to this effect: I am in pain. I have massive anxiety and the medicine I'm on IS NOT WORKING. I need something immediately for anxiety because it is inhibiting my daily life. Until I'm on a different medicine that gets rid of this anxiety, I need a benzo to calm me down and help me make it through.
Only some doctors are hesitant to prescribe them, and you will probably find that as you cycle through doctors, each one becomes successively lenient. As you discover yourself and your problems and learn about the medicine you take, your next doctor will realize that you know what you are talking about and will probably prescribe you what you want if you talk to him/her about it. Good luck.
-"Bob"
Posted by Peoples on May 17, 2004, at 13:37:10
In reply to social phobia insomnia, benzophobic dr., HELP ME, posted by erik98225 on May 15, 2004, at 5:01:07
Well best to stay away from the benzos regardless, as they can be depressing in and of themselves and they tend to unavoidably decrease cognitive functioning in the long run. Keep trying different doctors even neurologists until you find one compassionate enough to presribe you xyrem.
xyrem is GHB, recently FDA approved for cataplexy and very difficult to obtain (especially for psych conditions). As for me personally, ive tryed about 25 different ad's of every class, several benzos, AP's (nightmare), and even stims, to NO avail whatsoever. Found the right doc and established a good rapport, and know i take xyrem tid. It was been a MIRACLE, i am not only not fearful of anything social (work, family, friemds, parties, any situation)i am a "social butterfly" now. I feel like im the person i always wanted to be, I have those witty comebacks, jokes, etc that I was too paralyzed with fear to let out(the ones that u always seem to think of after the fact lol), in fact, dare I say it, but i am popular now :) my grades have soared, i have a positive outlook on life its wonderful!!!
As a word of caution, of course, this substance must be respected, and monitored closely by your doc, and the importance of correct dosage cannot be understated. Most of all, only responsible, mature patients who are serious about getting well (not getting worse by abusing their meds) need apply.Best Wishes - Peeps
Posted by erik98225 on May 17, 2004, at 23:17:53
In reply to XYREM-the only true anti-dep/anxiety med, posted by Peoples on May 17, 2004, at 13:37:10
GHB the date rape drug? You can't be serious, can you?
Posted by jodeye on May 17, 2004, at 23:39:28
In reply to XYREM-the only true anti-dep/anxiety med, posted by Peoples on May 17, 2004, at 13:37:10
Peeps -- Just wondering how many ml's of xyrem per dose and at what times of day? Was your initial dosing based on body weight? Thanks. --Jay
Posted by snapper on May 18, 2004, at 1:11:23
In reply to Re: XYREM-the only true anti-dep/anxiety med » Peoples, posted by jodeye on May 17, 2004, at 23:39:28
Peoples, I don't know you and therefore can NOT judge you or your previous psychiatric conditions but what kind of money and 'Super rapport' with a splendid doc afford you to your new found life of bliss. I am sorry to be ultra-negative (my serious depression speaking....truly sorry for any conotations of sarcasim) GHB my GOD!!! We here on PB are all trying to get well with the current state sanctioned heterogenous class of 'anti-depressants & semi-questionable anxiolytics' that are offically labeled as "safe" and effective by the {FDA} in treating serious conditions of mind numbing depression and blood curdling states of anxiety. What do you seriously think the chances are that even 1 or 2 percent of us here on PB would be able to get a doc to prescribe GHB for our ill states of mental health?
Any thing 'that good' is either ill-legal, contraband or otherwise and besides do you really think that all the pdocs want to risk losing thier precious, chronic, miserable, patients. (yes I am aware that it is FDA approved for a few select dis-orders and conditions) If it was the "only true anti-dep and anxiety med" , do you think that You , myself or anyone else here that frequents this board..would even have need for places like this. I am not attacking you-however I hope you use extreme caution in using this rather unstable molocule. (chemist correct me if I am wrong about its' un-predictable properties)
In any case I am glad you have found your 'nirvana'.....but please be careful and good luck!
Snapper
Posted by utopizen on May 20, 2004, at 8:32:30
In reply to Re: XYREM-the only true anti-dep/anxiety med, posted by snapper on May 18, 2004, at 1:11:23
It's called getting a psychopharmacologist that cost me $225 for the first appt. in his high-rise, in my case.
It ruined my semester. And I only took it at night as prescribed. Took 2 weeks before I realized I vomited every night on it (the amnesia effect didn't let me remember most times, and my roommate told me after two weeks).
I had such insomnia on the stuff, it was terrible. Or, if I took the dose that put me to sleep, I would deeply sweat as I went off to sleep, then vomit in the middle of the night.
And if I took any in the day, I felt retarded and couldn't talk because I was so out of it.
Oh yeah, some miracle drug. Wasted my semester, skipped classes over insomnia, and ruined my life. Hope everyone has good luck finding the doc that prescribes this.
Posted by jerrympls on May 20, 2004, at 17:07:26
In reply to Re: XYREM-the only true anti-dep/anxiety med, posted by snapper on May 18, 2004, at 1:11:23
> Peoples, I don't know you and therefore can NOT judge you or your previous psychiatric conditions but what kind of money and 'Super rapport' with a splendid doc afford you to your new found life of bliss. I am sorry to be ultra-negative (my serious depression speaking....truly sorry for any conotations of sarcasim) GHB my GOD!!! We here on PB are all trying to get well with the current state sanctioned heterogenous class of 'anti-depressants & semi-questionable anxiolytics' that are offically labeled as "safe" and effective by the {FDA} in treating serious conditions of mind numbing depression and blood curdling states of anxiety. What do you seriously think the chances are that even 1 or 2 percent of us here on PB would be able to get a doc to prescribe GHB for our ill states of mental health?
> Any thing 'that good' is either ill-legal, contraband or otherwise and besides do you really think that all the pdocs want to risk losing thier precious, chronic, miserable, patients. (yes I am aware that it is FDA approved for a few select dis-orders and conditions) If it was the "only true anti-dep and anxiety med" , do you think that You , myself or anyone else here that frequents this board..would even have need for places like this. I am not attacking you-however I hope you use extreme caution in using this rather unstable molocule. (chemist correct me if I am wrong about its' un-predictable properties)
> In any case I am glad you have found your 'nirvana'.....but please be careful and good luck!
> Snapper
I'm not judging you Snapper -so don't take anythingI say personally. Xyrem is hardly an unstable substance. A very poowerful one that must be used with extreme care - but nonetheless it's as stable as any other med. People get all scared - AHHH! The date-rape drug!!? NO WAY! --I say HARDLY - alcohol is the #1 date-rape drug. What about Benedryl? That could be used the same way - so could valium, vodka, Seroquel, xanax, etc etc. GHB isn't so horrible - the MEDIA is horrible. Do not trust the media when it comes to meds. You know why Extasy is illegal? Because some official in Oklahoma saw that people were taking it and feeling GOOD - and this made him nervous - HONESTLY - so because he was a high official he banned it - not based on any studies - just because HE WAS NERVOUS. Do you know why cocaine is illegal? Because back in the early part of the 20th century, old fat, white, people thought it made black people "superpowerful" and "able to escape the law because of their unnatural super-strength" after taking the substance - this of course scared them to death! WE CAN'T HAVE BLACK PEOPLE OUT OF CONTROL!! So they banned it. Do your own research - it's true.I've read a lot about GHB. Yes, it's a tricky substance and can be abused and can be dangerous - but it can correct the horrible hellish darkness of depression for many.
Posted by btnd on May 21, 2004, at 4:40:35
In reply to Re: XYREM-the only true anti-dep/anxiety med » snapper, posted by jerrympls on May 20, 2004, at 17:07:26
> I've read a lot about GHB. Yes, it's a tricky substance and can be abused and can be dangerous - but it can correct the horrible hellish darkness of depression for many.
I totally agree. It's also great anti-anxiety and social-anxiety treatment too. (very pro-social, especially when combined with Adderall)
Posted by chemist on May 21, 2004, at 23:27:09
In reply to Re: XYREM-the only true anti-dep/anxiety med » snapper, posted by jerrympls on May 20, 2004, at 17:07:26
hello, chemist here....you ought to check the history books about cocaine criminalization, starting in 1903 in the u.s. and really taking root in great britain about a decade later. and cocaine is not illegal: it is a schedule II substance, available by prescription. if there is any racial/ethic bias, it was aimed at the chinese, not african-americans/africans...all the best, and i do look forward to the reference on gamma-butyric acid being deemed illegal by a nervous guy in oklahoma....can you please provide some citations? chemist
Posted by SLS on May 22, 2004, at 6:55:38
In reply to Re: XYREM-the only true anti-dep/anxiety med » snapper, posted by jerrympls on May 20, 2004, at 17:07:26
> Because back in the early part of the 20th century, old fat, white, people thought it made black people "superpowerful" and "able to escape the law because of their unnatural super-strength" after taking the substance - this of course scared them to death! WE CAN'T HAVE BLACK PEOPLE OUT OF CONTROL!! So they banned it
This sounds right to me. I wish I could remember where I saw it. Probably on PBS.
- Scott
Posted by Sad Panda on May 22, 2004, at 7:17:47
In reply to Re: XYREM-the only true anti-dep/anxiety med, posted by SLS on May 22, 2004, at 6:55:38
> > Because back in the early part of the 20th century, old fat, white, people thought it made black people "superpowerful" and "able to escape the law because of their unnatural super-strength" after taking the substance - this of course scared them to death! WE CAN'T HAVE BLACK PEOPLE OUT OF CONTROL!! So they banned it
>
>
> This sounds right to me. I wish I could remember where I saw it. Probably on PBS.
>
>
> - Scott
>
>I don't know if it's an urban legend or an absolute fact, but it does sound like a good story to me. :) I nearly always err on the side of the conspiracy theroists as I believe in the 2nd man on the grassy knoll as well as the undeniable 3rd shooter. :P
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by Questionmark on May 22, 2004, at 13:01:16
In reply to XYREM-the only true anti-dep/anxiety med, posted by Peoples on May 17, 2004, at 13:37:10
Posted by erik98225 on May 22, 2004, at 16:08:38
In reply to Re: XYREM-the only true anti-dep/anxiety med, posted by SLS on May 22, 2004, at 6:55:38
> This sounds right to me. I wish I could remember where I saw it. Probably on PBS.
History Channel. "Hooked: Illegal drugs and how they got that way".
Basically, every drug that is illegal, is illegal because of racism.
Cocaine was outlawed because we didn't like the Blacks.
Opium was outlawed because we didn't like the Chinese.
Marijuana was outlawed because we didn't like the Mexicans.
Alcohol -- perhaps the only recreational drug that SHOULD be illegal -- is legal because it's what mainstream white society uses to get high.
Sad, but true.
Posted by erik98225 on May 22, 2004, at 16:12:17
In reply to Re: XYREM-the only true anti-dep/anxiety med » SLS, posted by erik98225 on May 22, 2004, at 16:08:38
To add to the above...
No drug is illegal. That's unconstitutional. Americans have a constiutional right to ingest whatever substances they wish.
Congress got around this by exercising their authority to regulate commerce, and passing the Marijuana TAX Act. It's illegal to possess marijuana without a tax stamp... they never sold the stamps... and the rest is history.
Posted by erik98225 on May 22, 2004, at 19:12:33
In reply to Re: social phobia insomnia, benzophobic dr., HELP ME, posted by rvanson on May 16, 2004, at 1:14:14
> First off, dump your doctor. Forget about him/her changing thiers minds...it wont happen.
>
> Most docs these days are HMO docs and care more about making $$$ and staying out of a courtroom, then about your QOL (quality of life).
>
> Now the hard part begins.
>
> You need to find a doc that wont use the records of the old doc to keep you off of benzos.
>
> I hope you like lying and falsifying your medical history, but that is what it will take here, if you want to get on some real medication that will help, aka a benzodiazapine.Last week, out of desperation, I obtained some klonopin from one of those web sites that offers to diagnose and prescribe online. I had to bypass my health insurance to do it, so it costs almost a dollar a milligram.
My pdoc refused to prescribe me benzos because he calls them "alcohol pills". He's nuts. Klonopin is nothing like alcohol. It feels like alcohol with no buzz and no toxic after-effects -- or in layman's terms, "just what I needed".
I cannot figure out why anyone would want to abuse this drug. If I take too much of it, I don't get high, just drowsy.
As far as dependence and withdrawal goes, my philosophy is *if it helps you, it doesn't matter if you're dependent on it*. SSRIs cause dependence too. Diabetics are dependent on insulin, for that matter.
I hate to do this semi-legally and without a doctor's supervision, but if that's what it takes to get the medicine I need, so be it.
> And stay off the booze ASAP.
>
> I know it feels helpful, but its not in the long-term.I've not had one drink since starting the klonopin. Haven't WANTED a drink, either.
> Sad to say that it comes to this, but thats what the American HMO system has done to medical care.Yes, it is sad indeed.
Anyway... for anyone who is taking klonopin for social phobia, how much do you take and how often do you take it?
I have been taking between 1.0 and 2.0 mg all at bedtime. It helps my social phobia TREMENDOUSLY, but seems to wear off the next afternoon. Am I better off taking smaller doses divided throughout the day?
I'd appreciate any help you can give me from anyone who's taking this stuff.
Posted by zeugma on May 22, 2004, at 20:35:38
In reply to Anyone taking klonopin for social phobia? » rvanson, posted by erik98225 on May 22, 2004, at 19:12:33
I'm currently taking .5 mg Klonopin twice a day for social phobia.
I've noticed people acting differently around me- because I seem a little more 'normal' around them, less likely to erupt into a panic attack at the slightest provocation.
It is my experience that most pdocs have no understanding of social phobia. If you tell them you're anxious around people they lump it under 'generalized anxiety disorder' which is a FAR milder and easier-to-treat condition (e.g. with virtually any antidepressant).
I take .5 mg in the am, and .5 mg in the afternoon when it begins to wear off. Right now I am going through a lot of medication changes (i.e. titrating off one AD and planning to add something else when I meet my pdoc next). I have a script for 1.5 mg/day but right now 1 mg seems to be keeping my symptoms of SP under control, more or less. When I went from .5 mg to 1 mg a day I did feel slightly drunk for a few days, not mentally but physically (I was a little unsteady). I can tell you that getting my social phobia treated has got to have been one of the most FRUSTRATING experiences of my life. Taking drugs that did nothing for it (SSRI's, Buspar, TCA's), trying treatments that were wholly counterproductive (CBT) and persuading my dr. to prescribe me something so I could literally keep my job (people with SP are often sacked for their 'strange' behavior around others), not to mention the personal misery this disorder causes... I have been through a lot with this disorder, and Klonopin does work, it is one of the few drugs that has solid evidence of benefit in this disorder. Best of luck,
z
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 23, 2004, at 9:28:59
In reply to Re: XYREM-the only true anti-dep/anxiety med, posted by erik98225 on May 22, 2004, at 16:12:17
> No drug is illegal. That's unconstitutional. Americans have a constiutional right to ingest whatever substances they wish...
I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding the right to ingest substances, etc., to Psycho-Social-Babble. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20040517/msgs/349851.html
Thanks,
Bob
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