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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by girl1969 on January 17, 2004, at 11:57:20
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin REBOUND ANXIETY????, posted by Ryan123 on January 15, 2004, at 16:16:04
I was on klonopin at 10 mg per day for 3 years. I started with a new doctor and he had me come off it. Not only did I have "rebound anxiety," but I went through the most miserable hell imaginable. I could not eat or sleep, I could not relax, and I wanted to jump out of my skin. I had headaches, tremors, and generally felt lik hell for 2 months.
There is no doubt in my mind that I went through withdrawal. My doctors didn't take me seriously at first, either. Some part of what I went through could be attributed to rebound anxiety, but the other symptoms were certainly withdrawal.
I wish you the best of luck,
Girl
Posted by micro on January 18, 2004, at 22:51:08
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin REBOUND ANXIETY????, posted by girl1969 on January 17, 2004, at 11:57:20
> I was on klonopin at 10 mg per day for 3 years. I started with a new doctor and he had me come off it. Not only did I have "rebound anxiety," but I went through the most miserable hell imaginable. I could not eat or sleep, I could not relax, and I wanted to jump out of my skin. I had headaches, tremors, and generally felt lik hell for 2 months.
>
> There is no doubt in my mind that I went through withdrawal. My doctors didn't take me seriously at first, either. Some part of what I went through could be attributed to rebound anxiety, but the other symptoms were certainly withdrawal.
>
> I wish you the best of luck,
>
> GirlPLease do not ever let anyone remove your klonopin without tapering your dose reduction individually, everyone should taper off klonopin slowly even those who use it for epilepsy. Although the rate of tapering and the severity of withdrawl varies individually, everyone experiences it. NO Doctor especially a trained Pdoc should ever recommend abrupt discontinuation. Please use a psychotropic med handbook and listen to your body. Your 2 months in hell can be greatly diminshed with appropriate tapering. Remember, NO two people react to the same meds in the same way ,we are all different and require different dosing and different meds to achieve the same results. Prescribing the same dose of the same medication for each person is illogical and careless. Best wishes. I apologize for your bad experience even though your doc should. Micro
Posted by girl1969 on January 20, 2004, at 23:57:15
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin REBOUND ANXIETY????, posted by micro on January 18, 2004, at 22:51:08
OH, this happened years ago. I have a new pdoc now.
Posted by kevin40 on January 27, 2004, at 0:01:11
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by Ryan123 on January 12, 2004, at 18:31:32
I read the postings from 13beans and Ryan.
These are my experiences and thoughts.
I have intensense dizziness and light-headedness. I started tappering off Klonopin this past fall. I was originally at 3mg/day in Dec. 2000. I went down to 2.5mg/day in 2002. In Sept. of 2003 I started at 2mg/day and went down .25mg every month. I have experienced a host of withdrawl symptoms vey similar to Ryan's. The dizziness and visual problems are intense and the cognitiv numbness is a drag. Anyone that has ideas on how to deal with the dizziness I am open ears!!!
Klonopin is, in the chemical nomenclature, a part of the opiate family. It and other benzo's are very addictive and withdrawl is very hard. I washed out three times before because I came off too quickly. Persons coming off need lots of unconditional support.
I too am a recovering alcoholic. Stopping drinking was like a walk in the park compared to this.
The rebound anxiety may be withdrawl symptoms which are similar the the symptoms the medication was to alleviate in the first place. Some anxiety may be dormant and some may be because the brain is tryiing to readjust.
I think many pdoc's are book smart but not empathetic or soul smart. If the shoe was on the other foot they would whistle a different tune.
I do solicit advise, again, from anyone with ideas on helping with the dizziness!! I work out
x3/week, take suppliments and try and be mellow.
Thanks.
Kevin-oh so tired of being dizzy.
Posted by micro on January 27, 2004, at 8:37:53
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by kevin40 on January 27, 2004, at 0:01:11
> I read the postings from 13beans and Ryan.
> These are my experiences and thoughts.
> I have intensense dizziness and light-headedness. I started tappering off Klonopin this past fall. I was originally at 3mg/day in Dec. 2000. I went down to 2.5mg/day in 2002. In Sept. of 2003 I started at 2mg/day and went down .25mg every month. I have experienced a host of withdrawl symptoms vey similar to Ryan's. The dizziness and visual problems are intense and the cognitiv numbness is a drag. Anyone that has ideas on how to deal with the dizziness I am open ears!!!
> Klonopin is, in the chemical nomenclature, a part of the opiate family. It and other benzo's are very addictive and withdrawl is very hard. I washed out three times before because I came off too quickly. Persons coming off need lots of unconditional support.
> I too am a recovering alcoholic. Stopping drinking was like a walk in the park compared to this.
> The rebound anxiety may be withdrawl symptoms which are similar the the symptoms the medication was to alleviate in the first place. Some anxiety may be dormant and some may be because the brain is tryiing to readjust.
> I think many pdoc's are book smart but not empathetic or soul smart. If the shoe was on the other foot they would whistle a different tune.
> I do solicit advise, again, from anyone with ideas on helping with the dizziness!! I work out
> x3/week, take suppliments and try and be mellow.
> Thanks.
> Kevin-oh so tired of being dizzy.Kevin,
Please reinstitute a small dose of your klonopin and see if this helps.
You may also try a pill cutter the next time you attempt to dicontinue. Konopin is easy to cut, use an exacto knife if you have to and go very slow. Some people must withdrawl from klonopin over months not weeks and discontinuance symtoms may occur for longer than 4 weeks . You may also request a beta blocker if you have no contraindications to it.
As to your comment on empathy, there is great need for pdocs in general, but it is difficult to attract medical students into this field. Read Mark Gold M.D., He makes a strong case for psychiatry, Biopsychiatry, the art of being a diagnostician as well as a Psychiatrist. There is more to Psychiatry than handing out benzos right and left. With the advent of diagnostic imaging, Psychiatry may be revolutionalized, however, traditional psychiatry is not embracing the concept. Hope this helps. Micro
Posted by ryan123 on January 27, 2004, at 16:25:18
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by micro on January 27, 2004, at 8:37:53
Yesterday I saw a psychiatrist that was also an addictionologist. I thought he would help understand me getting off klonopin being that he's with an expert with addiction. He told me I have to quit drinking to get better. I told him yes. I believe that alcohol is ultimately responsible for my being in this situation. Then I also tried to explain that if I never took klonopin I would never be feeling the symptoms I am currently feeling. He shushed me. Everytime I tried to bring up the pills he shushed me and told me I'm not focusing on the right thing.
I told him that I don't leave the house except for doctors' appointments. He inferred that I was to anxious to leave the house. I told him that I don't leave the house because the symptoms of withdrawal are so overwhelming that I really don't function at all. He didn't believe me and stuck to his conclusion. He told me to go to an AA meeting and talk to a certain guy he knows.
He told me to continue taking serequel, propanylol (a beta blocker that really helps keep my heart rate and blood pressure in line), trazodone; start taking paxil again; begin taking carbamazepine (what is this?), and gave me a perscription to serax (a tranquilizer that I have been taking without perscription to help with my withdrawal symptoms).
It's so amazing how doctors do not listen at all. I faxed him a two-page letter telling of my background and recent history. He read that I was a recovering alcoholic, and obviously quit reading after that. He was convinced that I had been a heavy drinker until two months ago and am still feeling alcohol withdrawal symptoms. I tried to tell him how little I drank in the last year and he continued to shush me and tell me the salvation is an arm's length away in the blissful life of sobriety.
My past relapse history is that I only drink when my anxiety level is out of control. I haven't drank since Halloween and I only drank one night. I know I have to stay sober. This is a given. The last two psychiatrists I have seen don't even believe that my anxiety could be caused by a chemical imbalance. It's maddening enough that I have to deal with these symptoms. These doctors are just amazing.
Can these symptoms of withdrawal be considered temporary insanity for future actions on close-minded doctors that enjoy playing god?
Posted by Girl1969 on January 30, 2004, at 13:54:48
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by ryan123 on January 27, 2004, at 16:25:18
Ryan,
I just read your post and my heart goes out to you. I, too, suffered withdrawal from klonopin and it was a long time before I found anyone who would help me through it.
Is it possible for you to find another doctor?
Posted by ryan123 on January 30, 2004, at 18:04:39
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by ryan123 on January 27, 2004, at 16:25:18
Through this whole matter, I've dealt with
*A family practice doctor that would not make any decisions, deferring to my family doctor
*My family doctor that will not make any decisions, deferring to a psychiatrist
*An addictionologist doctor at detox that cut me off from klonopin cold turkey and focused on me being a "pill junkie" rather than focus on my alcoholism which is why I went there in the first place
*A doctor at a psych ward that had no opinion on anything except wanting to keep me locked up in the psych ward for as long as possible
*A psychiatrist that tells me I'm suffering from rebound anxiety and need to change my attitude to get better
*An addictionologist psychiatrist that is focusing on my alcohol problem rather than my pill detox and tells me I need to go to AA to feel betterI am running out of professionals in my area to see. Also, each time I see one of these guys, it makes me feel that there is no hope--that no doctor out there will just listen to me. It makes me not want to try for fear of added despair.
Posted by madge on January 31, 2004, at 21:19:31
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by ryan123 on January 30, 2004, at 18:04:39
I have been tapering off Klonopin 1mg since October. I am now down to .125mg. The reason I decided to go off the Klonopin was because it was very drying. I started experiencing vaginal dryness very shortly after I started taking the Klonopin. I was getting re-occuring urinary tract infections monthly. Please note that I have a history of drugs affecting my urogenital area. At the end of 2002 I tapered off Paxil (after 3 years of use) because of its anticholinergic effects. I tried many antidepressants, only to find that they caused the same problem. My pdoc perscribed Klonopin for anxiety in Oct. 2002. I had no idea it was such a cunning drug. It affects almost every area of the brain, including the endocrine system. While tapering off, the vaginal dryness has ebbed and flowed, but has mostly been very debilitating. The withdrawl symptoms are much worse than the original problem. Has anyone else experienced this side effect, and if so, how long after withdrawl from Klonopin does it take to recover?
Posted by Michael D on February 14, 2004, at 9:55:04
In reply to Re: After shocks of trauma, posted by shadows721 on September 5, 2003, at 22:44:12
Hi Shadows,
You wrote (back in September 2003):
> Now, I am talking to a specialist about trying EEG biofeedback. Have you tried this treatment? Haven't spoken to anyone that has benefited from it.I've tried it and it made my symptoms worse. I also have complex PTSD. I think Complex PTSD is just too acute to benefit from EEG Biofeedback.
I've done a lot of research on brainwaves, EMDR, and EEG biofeedback, and I've come to believe that EMDR and EEG both work to change the electrical brainwaves in your brain. The EEG biofeedback frequencies that are used to treat trauma are near the upper end of Theta waves, and the lower end of Alpha waves, if I recall.
I believe that EMDR basically does the same thing.
The one hope I had from EEG is that I would learn to control my brainwaves and so I could put my brain into a peaceful state - ie. shut down the hypervigilance (hell).
I know someone else who tried EEG Biofeedback who also seems to have similar symptoms to mine. He also found that EEG made things worse for him. Then he tried HEG biofeedback, and he said he had lots of success.
HEG biofeedback works more with altering blood-flow, I think. It's much gentler than EEG biofeedback. If I could afford it, I would definitely try HEG biofeedback.
I would love to talk more about coping with Complex PTSD. I've asked Dr. Bob to start up a new list on trauma so that we could talk about these issues.
> The buspar has not made me have the typical SSRI symptoms either.
What typical symptoms do you mean?
I found that SSRIs increased my hypervigilence.
Cheers,
Michael D
Posted by Lorryn on March 1, 2004, at 15:58:28
In reply to EEG Biofeedback (was Re: After shocks of trauma), posted by Michael D on February 14, 2004, at 9:55:04
I would also like to add a small twist to this conversation. I have begged my physician, my Internist, my neurologist and my pdoc to withdraw me from klonopin with each one telling me to continue. They dont want to even touch it knowing that withdrawal is hard. I complain of increased depression while taking it and lethargy. Severe dry skin and altered breathing. I have tried to withdrawal on my own with pure hell as you all know. Having doctors that will not cooperate and give anything in exchange for it. Oh benzos also cause me to experience hypo tension with causes lightheadedness. I fully agree with each of your statements in that withdrawal from this causes a host of problems. It is much easier for the physician to talk you into thinking your experiencing rebound problems then to admit that the med should not have been prescribed in the first place. (why blame meds its their living) it must be you. Funny thing is i never experienced severe heart palpitations prior to taking this med only while coming off it. Go figure Lorryn
Posted by Dave1 on March 1, 2004, at 22:32:45
In reply to withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by sheebies on August 25, 2003, at 8:54:49
Hi,
Two things. Since Klonopin is a longer acting BZ than Xanax it is easier to get off of than Xanax. When I had to get of Ativan (short acting), my doctor first switched me to Klonopin, and then tapered me off that rather then tapering me directly off the short acting Ativan. I really didn't have any problems getting off the Klonopin. Maybe you should taper off even slower, I don't know.
Also, if you were having panic attacks, your pdoc probably gave you Xanax because that supposedly is only one that controls true panic attacks.
Regarding developing a tolerance for BZs., two different docs told me that won't happen with BZ's even if you take them for an extended period. A tolerance basicalloy means that your body gets used to the med., and you keep having to taking a higher and higher dosage to get the same effect.
One psychological tip for getting off the BZ's that I was told about was I thought was helpful:
-- Just having the BZ with you will reduce your anxiety, even if you don't take it because you know that you can take it if you starting freaking out from an anxiety attack.
Bye,
Dave
Posted by MSTROU1 on March 1, 2004, at 22:59:12
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by Dave1 on March 1, 2004, at 22:32:45
I feel that Klonopin withdrawal is worse than Xanax withdrawal simply because it has a longer half-life; therefore, it lasts longer.
Posted by Dave1 on March 2, 2004, at 14:58:41
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by MSTROU1 on March 1, 2004, at 22:59:12
Hi
Sevral docs. have told me that
The shorter acting BZ's hit you faster and stronger and are thus harder to get off of.
Analogy,Not that I have personal experience, but smoking cracking cocaine is more addictive than snorting cocaine because smoking it hits your brain much faster and more intensely.
Bye,
Dave
> I feel that Klonopin withdrawal is worse than Xanax withdrawal simply because it has a longer half-life; therefore, it lasts longer.
Posted by ryan123 on March 2, 2004, at 16:32:04
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by Dave1 on March 2, 2004, at 14:58:41
I'm sure it's also harder to get off klonopin after you've been on it for years.
Posted by MSTROU1 on March 2, 2004, at 18:08:12
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by ryan123 on March 2, 2004, at 16:32:04
It's harder to get off of crack cocaine than powder cocaine because people consume crack in much larger amounts. People may smoke a gram of crack in a minute while it would take a much longer period of time to consume that much by snorting it.
Posted by Dave1 on March 2, 2004, at 23:14:29
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by MSTROU1 on March 2, 2004, at 18:08:12
Hi,
I copied some information to the bottom of this post from a site called benzo.org.uk
(Note to the person needing to get off Klonopin:
Maybe you should look into Tegretol. This was also suggested on the above website for helpt with BZ. withdrawal. I know nothing about it)
Good night, good luck, good bye - DAVE
QUOTE
" WHAT IS A "HALF-LIFE", AND HOW IS THE CONCEPT IMPORTANT TO BENZODIAZEPINE DEPENDENCE?
Half-life is a numerical expression of how long it takes for a drug to leave your body. Technically, the "half-life," expressed as a range, is the time it takes for half of the amount consumed to be eliminated from your body, and so on. There is some controversy as to how long benzodiazepines may actually remain in your body after you have discontinued them entirely. Benzodiazepines are fat soluble and can persist in fatty tissues. However, benzodiazepines no longer show up in blood screenings beyond 30 days after discontinuance. This either means they are totally eliminated by that time, or that they persist in amounts too small to have any long term effect.
The importance of half-life is that a longer half-life generally makes for an easier withdrawal because your blood levels remain relatively constant, as opposed to the up and down roller coaster that you experience with short half life benzodiazepines. Furthermore, longer half-life benzodiazepines require less dose micro-management. For example, Valium can be taken once every 12 hours, or in some cases, once every 24 hours. Xanax, however, must be taken once every 4-6 hours to maintain constant blood levels. This is a practical impossibility for some people.
The following is a list of benzodiazepines with their corresponding half-lives, expressed as a range in hours:
Alprazolam 9 - 20
Bromazepam 8 - 30
Chlordiazepoxide 24 - 100
Clonazepam 19 - 60
Clorazepate 1.3 - 120
Diazepam 30 - 200
Estazolam 8 - 24
Flunitrazepam 18 - 26
Flurazepam 40 - 250
Halazepam 30 - 96
Ketazolam 30 - 200
Lorazepam 8 - 24
Lormetazepam 10 - 12
Nitrazepam 15 - 48
Oxazepam 3 - 25
Prazepam 30 - 100
Quazepam 39 - 120
Temazepam 3 - 25
Triazolam 1.5 - 5There is a misconception that longer half-life benzodiazepines prolong the withdrawal recovery process by remaining in your body tissues for longer. However, there is no evidence that longer half-life benzodiazepines represent any greater risk for Protracted Benzodiazepine Withdrawal Syndrome (see below) than shorter half-life benzodiazepines. This method of using a longer half-life equivalent is well understood in addiction medicine circles, and is employed with other classes of drugs as well. For example, people who are experiencing withdrawal symptoms from an antidepressant such as Paxil (Seroxat, paroxetine) are often given Prozac (fluoxetine) as a substitute for purposes of withdrawal, because Prozac has a longer half-life. Perhaps a more typical example is the use of the drug Methadone in heroin detoxification, which is employed in part because of its relatively long half-life. "
Posted by MSTROU1 on March 2, 2004, at 23:29:42
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by Dave1 on March 2, 2004, at 23:14:29
As far as withdrawal's lasting longer not affecting addiction, look at cigarettes. It takes a full six months for all nicotine to be eleminated from one's body.
Posted by Dave1 on March 3, 2004, at 7:34:01
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by MSTROU1 on March 2, 2004, at 23:29:42
In know, I've tried to get off cigarettes twice and failed. Addictions are a real pain in A...
Bye,
Dave
Posted by MSTROU1 on March 3, 2004, at 9:08:53
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin » MSTROU1, posted by Dave1 on March 3, 2004, at 7:34:01
I'm currently addicted to Lexa-Pro (YES it is addictive...without it I dunno how I'd function), Buspar (same as Lexa-Pro, even if it's not physical), nicotine and Klonopin. Supposedly quitting cigarettes is like losing a loved one. I'd say that I could get off of Buspar and Lexa-Pro if I really tried and tapered. I dunno about Klonopin and Cigarettes though. I've tried to get off of both for a very long time with no luck whatsoever.
Carter
Posted by ryan123 on March 3, 2004, at 14:29:05
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by MSTROU1 on March 3, 2004, at 9:08:53
Hi all,
Dave, I read your post about the ease of getting off tranquilizers compared to their half life. For me, it did not seem to go that way though.
In January of 1997, I was in detox and got off oxazepam and alcohol in exactly 5 days. After the fifth day, I felt like a new man ready to take on anything.
Over this Christmas, I weened off and quit taking klonopin. From the day I quit taking klonopin to when the recognizable withdrawal symptoms quit was seven weeks.
I'm not saying your article is wrong or anything, I'm just saying for me it was different. One would think booze and oxazepam (with a half life of 3-25 hours) would be harder to to get off klonopin (half life of 19-60 hours) based on your article.
I think if I was trying to get off klonopin and used a benzo with a longer half life, then quit that additional drug, it would be easier since the benzo helping me get off klonopin was in my system for a short period of time.
It could be a possibility that it took so long to get off klonopin because my anxiety is so much worse now. Possibily also a contributing factor was my addiction problems, drinking a bottle of vodka every day for a couple of years.
Or it still could be the very long half life of klonopin (which I tend to believe). Whatever the case, getting off of it was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.
The doctors gave me serequel and propanalol to help me get off of it. I took unprescribed oxazepam most of the time as well. The propanalol helped my body keep my blood pressure and heart rate low. Without it, my bp was 30 points higher on each number and heart rate was always between 120 and 150 bpm. Pretty much constantly felt like I was having a stroke until propanalol was administered to me.
Now the doctors gave me a prescription to oxazepam and tegretol. I have no idea what tegretol does, but it is helping me.
Posted by MSTROU1 on March 3, 2004, at 15:48:43
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by ryan123 on March 3, 2004, at 14:29:05
Tegretol is an anticonvulsant that inhibits nerve impulses.
Posted by Dave1 on March 3, 2004, at 18:25:55
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin, posted by ryan123 on March 3, 2004, at 14:29:05
Hi Ryan,
My doctor cut me back on Ativan and I was taking unprescribed Xanax. I get my new Ativan tomorrow so I won't have to use the Xanax anymore. If I ever have to cut back drastically again like he made me, I will definetly ask about Tegretol. It sounds like it really makes things easier.
Bye,
Dave
Posted by francesco on March 4, 2004, at 9:25:55
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin » ryan123, posted by Dave1 on March 3, 2004, at 18:25:55
Do you think Trileptal will work as well ? I'm asking because I'm trying to quit my xanax ... I have experienced a bad withdrawal from benzos (I didn't realize I was dependant) and my p-doc put me on xanax that seems a nonsense to me. I don't know if he had realized I was experiencing a benzo-withdrawal but the syntoms seem to me evident (derealization, weakness in arms and legs and so on). Now he wants me to stay on 0,25 mg a day of Xanax but I'm sleepy all day long. I'm taking also 10mg of Anafranil which can somehow contribute to the sleepiness. I have some Trileptal at home and I'm wondering if I have to quit Xanax without my p-doc's approval. Thanks in advance for any comment
Posted by MSTROU1 on March 4, 2004, at 9:48:51
In reply to Re: withdrawl from Klonopin » Dave1, posted by francesco on March 4, 2004, at 9:25:55
I've never heard of Trileptal. You're on a very low dosage of Xanax so I don't see how it could make you drowsy all day long.
BTW, a note on half-lifes...SSRI's make benzos' half-lifes longer.
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