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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Leah57 on January 5, 2004, at 11:58:50
I started Remeron 2 weeks ago for severe anxiety and depression, it has not had the desired result, I took 15mg for 7 day then 30 for 7 days.
I feel like I'm on speed, so anxious I could crawl out of my skin, still waking in the wee hours of the morning and still need sleep tablet at night and ativan during day. What is wrong, I'm ready to give up, can't take ssri's because of increased anx on them and tricyclics make my heart pound and race and skip beats. Please help anybody!
Posted by stjames on January 5, 2004, at 16:21:23
In reply to Started Remeron 2 weeks ago and freaking, posted by Leah57 on January 5, 2004, at 11:58:50
it sould take 4-6 weeks before the Remeron starts working
Posted by crazychickuk on January 5, 2004, at 17:07:24
In reply to Re: Started Remeron 2 weeks ago and freaking, posted by stjames on January 5, 2004, at 16:21:23
Hang in there hun, i had the same problem as you.... all ssris made me anxious trylics did that to my hrt too.. remeron is the only med that aint caused desired affects for me, at first yes they did, cut the remeron back to 15mg ... hang in there... i was exactly like you, i been on it for 8 mnths, even though i feel it isnt helping my depression, it sure has helped me with my panick.. i do need another med aswell as this, i am hoping to see the phsc soon when they get of their arses and realize this is real life and not a darn drama!!
So plse hang in there cut it bk to 15mg see how you go on that, you may also suffer from manic atatcks, when you cant calm down like i did, maybe stick with your benzo also... remember the lower the dose the calmer you will be...
Good luck and plse stick to it!!! it really is a good med..
best of luck Donna
Keep us informed
Posted by leah57 on January 5, 2004, at 17:07:58
In reply to Re: Started Remeron 2 weeks ago and freaking, posted by stjames on January 5, 2004, at 16:21:23
Hi Stjames, did you have the same experience with remeron as I am having, I'm thinking of cutting back to 15 mgs and try upping it later. I think this drug may put me in hospital and and scared to death.
Posted by leah57 on January 5, 2004, at 17:13:35
In reply to Re: Started Remeron 2 weeks ago and freaking LEAH!, posted by crazychickuk on January 5, 2004, at 17:07:24
Thank you Donna for the reply, glad I'm not the only one who's reacted this way to remeron. Most people it makes then sleep and eat, not me. I need to take a sleeping tab for sleep and ativan to keep me from tearing off my skin and I'm still not eating. My hubby went and bought me boost which is a liquid meal replacement so that I can fight of this flu I've had since before Christmas. How many mgs are you taking now?
Posted by jparsell82 on January 5, 2004, at 23:55:00
In reply to Started Remeron 2 weeks ago and freaking, posted by Leah57 on January 5, 2004, at 11:58:50
> I started Remeron 2 weeks ago for severe anxiety and depression, it has not had the desired result, I took 15mg for 7 day then 30 for 7 days.
> I feel like I'm on speed, so anxious I could crawl out of my skin, still waking in the wee hours of the morning and still need sleep tablet at night and ativan during day. What is wrong, I'm ready to give up, can't take ssri's because of increased anx on them and tricyclics make my heart pound and race and skip beats. Please help anybody!Hmm... that's odd. I would give it a little more time. Remeron is actually an antagonist of Serotonin(5HT-2 & 5HT-3 receptors). So it works in a different way than SSRI's. It's been shown in studies to be more effective most of the time for anxiety than depression. I was actually thinking about giving it a shot for my anxiety, poor appetite and nausea. Do you find it makes you eat more?
Posted by leopard on January 6, 2004, at 13:07:08
In reply to Started Remeron 2 weeks ago and freaking, posted by Leah57 on January 5, 2004, at 11:58:50
Hi Leah,
Have you been diagnosed? If so, with what?
Hang in there and keep us posted.
~SHannon
Posted by Leah57 on January 7, 2004, at 11:56:50
In reply to Re: Started Remeron 2 weeks ago and freaking, posted by jparsell82 on January 5, 2004, at 23:55:00
I still don't have an appetite and still can't sleep this is my 3rd week on it. Saw doctor today, took me off of it I'm seing psyc tomorrow. I am so scared, what if nothing helps me. I can't live like this anymore. I suffer from panic, anxiety disorder and depression, don't know which came first, I think anxiety. Wish me luck and pray for me.
Posted by nobodyz on January 7, 2004, at 23:05:08
In reply to Re: Started Remeron 2 weeks ago and freaking LEAH!, posted by crazychickuk on January 5, 2004, at 17:07:24
Here's a strange thought:
If I take a med and it does exactly the opposite of what it's supposed to do, isn't it MY obligation to discontinue use immediately?Why is it that I read accounts here of people who have horrific side effects of a med and someone else (with a DIFFERENT BODY) says "Oh, no, stay on it, it works for me!"?
Why do these people even suggest such a thing and why does anyone take their advice? If you eat strawberries and they make you want to gag, do you eat them just cuz your uncle bob loves strawberries? Or do you use your common sense, and regardless of uncle bob's feelings, refuse to eat strawberries because you can't stand them?
I'm interested in what people think of this. Thanks.
-nobodyz
Posted by sb417 on January 7, 2004, at 23:57:18
In reply to Meds and Your Body: TRUST YOURSELF, posted by nobodyz on January 7, 2004, at 23:05:08
I agree with you completely. Sadly, I've met many people on message boards who make up their minds about meds based on what others have experienced (both good and bad) rather than on their own experience. By the way, why don't you change your name to "somebodyz"?
Posted by Sad Panda on January 8, 2004, at 0:05:49
In reply to Meds and Your Body: TRUST YOURSELF, posted by nobodyz on January 7, 2004, at 23:05:08
> Here's a strange thought:
> If I take a med and it does exactly the opposite of what it's supposed to do, isn't it MY obligation to discontinue use immediately?
>
> Why is it that I read accounts here of people who have horrific side effects of a med and someone else (with a DIFFERENT BODY) says "Oh, no, stay on it, it works for me!"?
>
> Why do these people even suggest such a thing and why does anyone take their advice? If you eat strawberries and they make you want to gag, do you eat them just cuz your uncle bob loves strawberries? Or do you use your common sense, and regardless of uncle bob's feelings, refuse to eat strawberries because you can't stand them?
>
> I'm interested in what people think of this. Thanks.
> -nobodyzI think people that continue to try taking the med even with such bad results are obviously desperate. In the case it appears Leah57 is desperate to get some sleep! :)
Sorry this message is of no use to you Leah57. :(
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by nobodyz on January 8, 2004, at 16:10:52
In reply to Re: Meds and Your Body: TRUST YOURSELF » nobodyz, posted by Sad Panda on January 8, 2004, at 0:05:49
> I think people that continue to try taking the med even with such bad results are obviously desperate. In the case it appears Leah57 is desperate to get some sleep! :)
>
> Sorry this message is of no use to you Leah57. :(
>
> Cheers,
> Panda.
>Desperate makes sense to me. God knows, I've been desperate for help on more than one occasion. However, being desperate for sleep, for instance, doesn't seem to lend itself to being willing to take speed. What good would speed do to make me sleep? I guess the question is more along the lines of "What kind of magical thinking is going on in those of us who take a med that is doing the opposite from what it's supposed to, and we continue to take it? Do we think the med is going to change?".
I also understand being so freaked that I don't trust my own logic and the need for feedback. I would really like it if we supported each other by saying "trust yourself" more frequently. There is no way I can know what another person is experiencing, let alone a stranger on line. To trust one's own perceptions seems to be the thing that's missing. My opinion.
-nobodyz
Posted by nobodyz on January 8, 2004, at 16:14:57
In reply to Re: Meds and Your Body: TRUST YOURSELF » nobodyz, posted by sb417 on January 7, 2004, at 23:57:18
>By the way, why don't you change your name to "somebodyz"?
It's a long story, but the reason for it being "nobodyz" is not a value judgement. It's an old inside joke from childhood. :)
-nobodyz
Posted by PoohBear on January 14, 2004, at 17:11:02
In reply to Re: Meds and Your Body: TRUST YOURSELF, posted by nobodyz on January 8, 2004, at 16:10:52
> However, being desperate for sleep, for instance, doesn't seem to lend itself to being willing to take speed. What good would speed do to make me sleep? I guess the question is more along the lines of "What kind of magical thinking is going on in those of us who take a med that is doing the opposite from what it's supposed to, and we continue to take it? Do we think the med is going to change?". -nobodyz
>Actually, many people with ADHD find that some drugs have the opposite of their intended effect. This is the reason that ADHD people will often be prescribed Ritalin to "calm down", when for most people it truly would be "speed".
TR
Posted by nobodyz on January 14, 2004, at 18:59:11
In reply to Re: Meds and Your Body: TRUST YOURSELF, posted by PoohBear on January 14, 2004, at 17:11:02
> Actually, many people with ADHD find that some drugs have the opposite of their intended effect. This is the reason that ADHD people will often be prescribed Ritalin to "calm down", when for most people it truly would be "speed".
>
> TR
Thanks for writing. I JUST found out about homeopathic remedies yesterday and am trying to get my mind around this very concept. Apparently, when prescribing, sometimes doctors go by what is called the "The Law of Similars" in which the same natural substances that cause a set of symptoms if given to a healthy individual in large quantities can also stimulate a sick individual to get better, if given in tiny amounts (micro-doses). Same concept as allergy shots. No wonder it's so confusing.-nobodyz
Posted by Francesco on January 19, 2004, at 6:50:32
In reply to Re: Meds and Your Body: TRUST YOURSELF » PoohBear, posted by nobodyz on January 14, 2004, at 18:59:11
I started Remeron a week ago but I can't understand why my psychiatrist put me on it.
I went to him to try to target my adhd-like syntoms and I suggested desipramine. He said that desipramine was ok but he also suggested to take Remeron. Since I started it I'm more spaced out than ever and I'm wondering if his suggestion was clever or not. He wrote me in a mail that he gave me Remeron for anxiety but I'm not very anxious, to be honest. The only think I can complain about when I'm not on meds is lack of concentration and all the stuff add-people usually lack. The psychiatrist might also think that I have some problem with mood swings which go beyond the adhd picture because he put me on Trileptal (I must say I disagree with him on this point).My questions are:
1. I wrote in many posts that Remeron is both serotoninergic and anti-serotoninergic. Is this true ?
2. does anybody manage to understand what could be behind my psychiatrist suggestion of Remeron ?
I'm trying to figure out if it's the case to quit it or not.
Posted by nobodyz on January 19, 2004, at 7:16:17
In reply to Re: Meds and Your Body: TRUST YOURSELF » nobodyz, posted by Francesco on January 19, 2004, at 6:50:32
> I started Remeron a week ago but I can't understand why my psychiatrist put me on it.
> I went to him to try to target my adhd-like syntoms and I suggested desipramine. He said that desipramine was ok but he also suggested to take Remeron. Since I started it I'm more spaced out than ever and I'm wondering if his suggestion was clever or not. He wrote me in a mail that he gave me Remeron for anxiety but I'm not very anxious, to be honest. The only think I can complain about when I'm not on meds is lack of concentration and all the stuff add-people usually lack. The psychiatrist might also think that I have some problem with mood swings which go beyond the adhd picture because he put me on Trileptal (I must say I disagree with him on this point).
>
> My questions are:
>
> 1. I wrote in many posts that Remeron is both serotoninergic and anti-serotoninergic. Is this true ?
> 2. does anybody manage to understand what could be behind my psychiatrist suggestion of Remeron ?
> I'm trying to figure out if it's the case to quit it or not.
I know absolutely nothing about Remeron and even less about Trileptal. (Someone else may write who does know about those specific meds) However, when a doctor seems to not "hear" me when I tell him that I don't have this symptom or that symptom by treating me for it anyway, I am more concerned about the quality of care I am receiving.Case in point: just had a runaround with my psych doc regarding Mellaril. He would not listen to my concern that Mellaril causes a bad heart rythmn that actually kills and I already have a heart murmur. Doubting his insistance, I called the pharmacist who immediately said "No, you need another option. That would be dangerous for you to take with a heart murmur" and other things. So, what do I do? I don't take Mellaril. It's as simple as that. I will see if the psych doc is going to work with me on another option I have. If he gets too adamant, I will fire him and find another. See, WE ARE THE ONES TAKING THE RISK, NOT THE DOCTORS. Bottom line: it's your body and your life (quality as well as basic living). It's YOUR choice. Trust yourself.
-nobodyz
Posted by Francesco on January 19, 2004, at 7:36:41
In reply to Re: Meds and Your Body: TRUST YOURSELF » Francesco, posted by nobodyz on January 19, 2004, at 7:16:17
Thanks, very helpful post. I find sometimes myself in a dylemma-situation. I know about my disturbs and my reactions to meds more than my psychiatrist knows. But he knows about meds more than I know. Therefore I can't say for sure his suggestions are wrong and I'm condemned to take meds because *maybe* he knows better than me what could help in my case. The picture is complicated by the fact that a med that has certain effect in the first days may have other effects in the long term (or at least is what they say). Not to talk about placebo effect, nocebo effect, and so many variables that make me impossibile take a rational decision. If I have to trust my insticts I will throw away all the meds and live my life as it is. But, would this be rational ? Just don't know
Posted by Francesco on January 19, 2004, at 8:07:02
In reply to Re: Meds and Your Body: TRUST YOURSELF » Francesco, posted by nobodyz on January 19, 2004, at 7:16:17
I have read some month ago a meta-analysis about SAM-E. These were the conclusions of the article:
1. Anafranil is more effective than SAM-E for major depressions.
2. SAM-E is as affective as SSRIs and Anafranil (the golden standard) in mild and moderate depressions.
before saying "wow" let's read also the following statement:
3. Placebo is as affective as SSRIs and Anafranil in mild and moderate depression.
!!!
Even if depression, or mental illness in general, are dued to some imbalance in our biochemistry, we should reflect over the fact that there are many ways to change biochemistry. One of them is taking something believing it will be helpful for us. Hopes and beliefs actually change our brain.
When they say that, let's say 40 percent of people respond to placebo, while 60 percent of people respond to prozac they conclude that prozac is a *real* antidepressant and they put it on the market. But there are other conclusions that can be drawn:
1. placebo works fairly good as an antidepressant. let's put it on the market !
2. two thirds of the effects of prozac (40/60 in my example) are dued to the placebo effect !
Confutations are welcome.I can't say I'm against the use of meds (I've tried at least a dozen of them) but I'm wondering insistently how much of my progresses and regresses can be attributed to meds and how much I could have experienced also taking a sugar pill.
Posted by nobodyz on January 19, 2004, at 8:38:23
In reply to Re: Meds and Your Body: TRUST YOURSELF » nobodyz, posted by Francesco on January 19, 2004, at 7:36:41
<<<Thanks, very helpful post. I find sometimes myself in a dylemma-situation. I know about my disturbs and my reactions to meds more than my psychiatrist knows. But he knows about meds more than I know. Therefore I can't say for sure his suggestions are wrong and I'm condemned to take meds because *maybe* he knows better than me what could help in my case. The picture is complicated by the fact that a med that has certain effect in the first days may have other effects in the long term (or at least is what they say). Not to talk about placebo effect, nocebo effect, and so many variables that make me impossibile take a rational decision. If I have to trust my insticts I will throw away all the meds and live my life as it is. But, would this be rational ? Just don't know>>>
Yes, I understand totally. It is complex. However, what I meant to suggest was only that when the doctor is NOT listening to important health information you are giving him, that is when trusting yourself has to come first. Or, that is my belief. There are good doctors and bad doctors. But the hardest ones to work with are the in-between ones who simply do not value the patient's input by blithely ignoring information. They seem so "innocuous" ... so NOT bad, at least not aggressively bad. But taking prescriptions from someone who does not listen is, to me, as dangerous as writing a script out myself. (I am not a doctor, so that would be very dangerous!)
Obviously, good advice is good advice. When it all fits together and seems reasonable and doesn't leave you saying "But!" because the doctor has ignored you, it's a good thing. But if he has ignored your telling him you are ALLERGIC to penicillin, say, and is saying that penicillin won't hurt you, it doesn't hurt him, that's the time to run. Or at the very least, trust yourself. Also risk factor is important. Not the percentage of people whom it affects -- the LEVEL of the bad effects.
For instance: if the risks of drug A are death and the risks of drug B are a little sleepiness, seems to go without saying that one would choose drug B, even if A is the "perfect choice" according to the doctor.
Follow what I'm saying?
-nobodyz
Posted by nobodyz on January 19, 2004, at 8:44:29
In reply to let's talk about placebo » nobodyz, posted by Francesco on January 19, 2004, at 8:07:02
> I can't say I'm against the use of meds (I've tried at least a dozen of them) but I'm wondering insistently how much of my progresses and regresses can be attributed to meds and how much I could have experienced also taking a sugar pill.
>
>
I JUST had this discussion with my psych doc! I asked him if he'd be willing to try me on a placebo. He just laughed. I wish he would! I see your point and wonder why there isn't a class of "drugs" (face it: if people are TOLD it is a placebo and not a medication, it won't work because they won't believe it) that are merely sugar pills.They could be much less expensive, and perhaps the first step in less extreme cases. Of course, a big problem would be malpractice I imagine, as people would see it as the doctor not treating them if they hadn't somehow agreed to a placebo.
You make an interesting point. Wish more people would talk about this idea!
-nobodyz
Posted by PoohBear on January 19, 2004, at 10:42:34
In reply to Re: let's talk about placebo » Francesco, posted by nobodyz on January 19, 2004, at 8:44:29
The other problem with placebos, is that in our litigious society, if someone were given a placebo (without signing up for a double blind study and knowing the risks) and then died as a result of suicide because the "placebo" really WAS ineffective, imagine the lawsuits...
It's my experience that docs order many of the tests that they do to cover their butts. I believe that this would also apply to meds.
I keep a record of any side effects I have. That and these boards help me to communicate effectively (no pun intended) with my PDoc what's going on with me, and find alternative treatments if necessary.
It's not just the PDocs that have the power. We also have the power to positively change our minds and lives, but we do need to be somewhat more proactive that the Doc, who has many more years of experience.
Does any of this make sense?
TR
Posted by Simcha on January 19, 2004, at 12:10:05
In reply to Re: let's talk about placebo » nobodyz, posted by PoohBear on January 19, 2004, at 10:42:34
The placebo effect is a very powerful one. There is a connection between body and mind that is undeniable. We all have immense power at our disposal if we only learn how to tap into it.
I go to grad school in a graduate school for holistic studies. It's amazing learning about the connections between mind and body. I'm learning how to effect changes in my own body with my mind. I use crystals, tarot, herbs, ritual, meditation, and scent to assist talk therapy and medication in treating my major depression. You can call it a "placebo" effect and yet these things actually work. I've found that the mind, the senses, the body, the soul, the emotions, and the spirit are very powerful medicine when used in a unified way.
Using medication is one important piece of the puzzle for me in treating my major depression. I've had two wonderful psychiatrists who have told me that medication alone does not work. It requires life changes and all of the other work I do on myself in order to sustain remission. We cannot ignore body chemistry. The mind is powerful. I believe that it is not the only piece.
Therefore I would think that it would be irresponsible to prescribe a placebo to a client. At school we did learn from a psychiatrist in our diagnosis in assessment classes that all medications are about 60% effective. This is a truth. Upon my questioning the psychiatrist explained that the 40% who are not helped by one med might be helped by another. By the third trial the statistics say that 90% of people will be helped by medication. There is such a thing as "treatment resistant people."
The psychiatrist who gave our presentation works holistically. He uses herbs, hypnosis, and other methods to help people. There is much that we do not understand about the mind/body connection. We don't even understand all of the workings of the body. If we did there would be a "magic" solution to body imbalances that would effectively cure chemical imbalances for everyone.
My belief is that even if we did know the solution to chemical imbalance we would still be missing important pieces of the puzzle like, nutrition, exercise, spirituality, lifestyle habits, family situation, work situation, etc.
Simcha
This is the end of the thread.
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