![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 35. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by srd1074 on November 3, 2003, at 20:51:44
I have spent much time browsing some of these postings tonight, and I tell you what, it scared me. People do not understand the ramifications of the substances they put in their bodies. Some of the experimentation I am reading here (with prescriptions) is showing me that a lot of people out there are not talking to their pharmacists, or reading their drug books, or getting on the Internet and learning all that they can.
I am reading about how people seem to just be taking doc's word for it and not investigating at all. No wonder we have malpractice issues. Would you buy a car from a dealer because they said it was the "best on the market." Yeah, doctor's take hypocratic oaths, but they also take pharmaceutical co.-financed vactions.
As a pre-med, post bacc student with narcolepsy, I can say that I am going into the field so that I can make a difference in all of this. I am not money motivated, except for those student loans. However, my used Saturn is just fine for me.
Doctors spend 4 to 5 years in medical school learning every little nook and cranny of the body, how it works, how it works best and what can go wrong. The body is not an exact science. Doctors often have to make "an educated guess."
What I am reading shows me that people don't understand that NO-ONE knows their body better than they do. A doctor may have a great understanding of what processes are going on and where, but he or she cannot know what it feels like to be "in the skin" of the patient.
People should be actively involved with understanding their own bodies - it would help their doctors make a better diagnosis when problems do arise!
Your body is a fortress, it cannot be destroyed with out destroying the resident. Take care of it - treat it like your best lover and don't take uneducated or unnecessary risks. This one doesn't come with a lifetime guarantee. It does come with an expiration date though, so use it wisely!!!
Posted by ericcc on November 3, 2003, at 20:59:24
In reply to Wow, some of the things I read here scare me., posted by srd1074 on November 3, 2003, at 20:51:44
I agree. My pdoc tricked me to start with zyprexa.i was only depressed and had some fear.He told me that it was no withdrawal symtoms and everything.He told me to go on zyprexa rest of my life!!!I will tell u what..People say that iam much more normal without zyprexa!really I feel much better without it.these drugs can be dangerous.nobody knows what exactly it does with your body. I will never take medicals again..NEVER
Posted by Ron Jones on November 3, 2003, at 21:36:18
In reply to Re: Wow, some of the things I read here scare me., posted by ericcc on November 3, 2003, at 20:59:24
TRy fish oil,inositol,magnesium and taurine.
Posted by KellyD on November 3, 2003, at 21:58:20
In reply to Wow, some of the things I read here scare me., posted by srd1074 on November 3, 2003, at 20:51:44
I agree with much of your post. I also realize that this and any other med board is a small slice of the pie. I think postings lean to people who are having med difficulties, past or present. Many out "there" are doing well on meds and consider them lifesavers. You are right, we all need to be advocates for ourselves and be informed, but I did once have a friend who warned me (when I went to do research on the 'net involving message boards and the like) - "don't go thinking you'll find much in the way of positive information, there are not many happy stories to be found" - his obersevation, not "necessarily" mine.
Posted by tensor on November 3, 2003, at 22:13:55
In reply to Wow, some of the things I read here scare me., posted by srd1074 on November 3, 2003, at 20:51:44
>People do not understand the ramifications of the substances they put in their bodies.
Well, i agree with you to some extent. But does anyone know the ramifications? I try to read as much as i can and for all AD´s the exact mechanism of action is not known, the same applies to long-term side effects for using a certain AD. I would NOT take any of my meds if didn't have to, as a matter of fact i hate them. Another aspect is that when you are depressed, anxious or whatever you might not have the energy to undertake an adequate research in each drug that the doctor may prescribe you.
> or getting on the Internet and learning all that they can.
This is internet, and we are learning from each other, exchanging experiences. Very useful and often better than reading a drug book.
/tensor
Posted by Ron Jones on November 3, 2003, at 22:30:19
In reply to Re: Wow, some of the things I read here scare me. » srd1074, posted by tensor on November 3, 2003, at 22:13:55
Your Drug May Be Your Problem by Dr Berggin.Read this and know it all.If a drug causes a side effect all you can do is stop it.There is just no cure so what do you do?Read the research on inositol and fish oil.It is your only alternative to drug side effects.Scietific research says they work.
Posted by tensor on November 4, 2003, at 1:37:30
In reply to Re: Wow, some of the things I read here scare me., posted by Ron Jones on November 3, 2003, at 22:30:19
Dr Berggin? You make it sound so simple, eat fish oil and all problems are gone. Personally i don't think so. Scientific research also says that remeron, prozac, effexor etc. works, and...
No offense, i'm sure people can benefit from fish oil but you have to agree it can't be the answer to all mental illnesses. Btw. doesn't this sort under the alternative babble?
/tensor
Posted by srd1074 on November 4, 2003, at 8:51:01
In reply to Re: Wow, some of the things I read here scare me. » Ron Jones, posted by tensor on November 4, 2003, at 1:37:30
wow, I can't believe I started all of this. Fish oil? Fish oil is to help lower your HDL. If you think it is going to solve your health problems, you are investing too much faith in the advice of the person who told you this.
My mom did the same thing, I told her to stop sleeping with the television on. But she kept waking up with a vulnerable conscience right smack dab in the middle of those infomercials. So, she bought that fish oil remedy. It got her and extra 20 or so pounds of weight.My point was not to say meds are bad. My point is to say research - and I don't mean through the experiences of other people only. If you are too tired to do research, then you have bigger issues. I am narcoleptic. I know what it is like to be tired - oh, and get really )&*)*&)*( sick of being told I am depressed. Fatigue doesn't necessarily mean that. But that is my point. Research.
S.
Posted by karen_kay on November 4, 2003, at 9:14:07
In reply to Wow, some of the things I read here scare me., posted by srd1074 on November 3, 2003, at 20:51:44
Wow, why do you say that? I agree that maybe some people do not research enough but how can you know that? The fact that people are posting here to gain information about side effects and questions about other choices and support says a lot. I know that I become concerned when I read a post about someone splitting a pill in half or completely discontinuing medication without doctor's consent, but something you have to realize is that I think most of us have done this. Well, I am jsut speaking for myself here. I completely stopped Lithium without my doctor's consent and YES it was something that I knew not to do. But, in the last 2 years, I have spent about 1 hour each day researching my diagnosis and different treatments. I feel that I am very educated, and I show up at every doctor's appointment ready to discuss side effects and various options, including ones that I learned here on Babble (THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!) Thnaks to Babble I learned about the med I am currently on and am very happy with. I feel that, for the most part, everyone on here is learning something new and helping to educate eachother. And that is the point. And I hope that we are questioning our doctors each time we speak with them and they try to find a drug that helps us lead full and productive lives. I almost cry to think where I would be without the drug that, at this point, has basically helped me to reclaim my life. And yes, I am the one who suggested it to my dr, not the other way around. Keep up the Great work Babblers! Karen
Posted by karen_kay on November 4, 2003, at 9:15:33
In reply to Re: Wow, some of the things I read here scare me., posted by ericcc on November 3, 2003, at 20:59:24
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 4, 2003, at 10:06:08
In reply to Re: Wow, some of the things I read here scare me., posted by srd1074 on November 4, 2003, at 8:51:01
> wow, I can't believe I started all of this. Fish oil? Fish oil is to help lower your HDL.
If you think that's all that docosahexaenoic and eicosapentaenoic acids do, I sure hope you're paying attention in the lecture hall.
> My mom did the same thing....she bought that fish oil remedy. It got her and extra 20 or so pounds of weight.
>
> My point was not to say meds are bad. My point is to say research - and I don't mean through the experiences of other people only.Do you not see how you have just contradicted yourself?
> But that is my point. Research.
>
> S.That will be welcomed, when you present research in place of opinion.
Lar
Posted by srd1074 on November 4, 2003, at 10:06:45
In reply to Re: Wow, some of the things I read here scare me., posted by karen_kay on November 4, 2003, at 9:14:07
I wasn't suggesting that hearing about side effects is a bad idea. I am concerned by the people that I am reading about who seem to be using this as their only reference.
Your efforts are great, and they are what I am referring too.
S.
Posted by srd1074 on November 4, 2003, at 10:54:49
In reply to Re: Wow, some of the things I read here scare me. » srd1074, posted by Larry Hoover on November 4, 2003, at 10:06:08
No, they do more. But watching people like my mother place so much faith in a substance based on what one doctor who was trying to make some money says, only to watch her fall further into her problems, makes me sad.
No, I did not contradict myself. I just didn't make myself clear. If you read one of my later postings about what I said about people learning about side effects, you will understand.
I don't need to present research in place of opinion. I don't use fish oil remedies. I eat a healthy diet including a lot of fatty fish. I have no use for that type of remedy in my life, therefore I really don't need to go further into the basics of what the substance does. It would be like me researching insulin when I am not a diabetic. I have a pretty good working knowledge of what the substance does and how it works at the cellular level.
However, people want to hear about experiences here, I presented mine.
S.
As far as what scares me, it is the misuse of medications and the pill popping that I am reading about without understanding of what is being swallowed. Psycho-neuro drugs are the least understood drugs out there. Why would anyone take for granted a chemical that could potentially help them, but hurt them just the same.
Posted by tensor on November 4, 2003, at 11:19:19
In reply to Re: Wow, some of the things I read here scare me., posted by srd1074 on November 4, 2003, at 10:54:49
> As far as what scares me, it is the misuse of medications and the pill popping that I am reading about without understanding of what is being swallowed. Psycho-neuro drugs are the least understood drugs out there. Why would anyone take for granted a chemical that could potentially help them, but hurt them just the same.Tell me then, who can you trust? Who do you trust? You shouldn't put complete trust in your doctor(he's paid, right?) and the same with the pharmacist. You said it yourself, psyc meds are the least understood drugs. So what can you do? Before science has acquired complete knowledge about the brain we are more or less forced to take pills that might help, might hurt or face a life bound to bed.
>Why would anyone take for granted a chemical that could potentially help them, but hurt them just the same.
Who's taking things for granted here? These chemicals potentially save lives.
Posted by KellyD on November 4, 2003, at 11:39:53
In reply to Re: Wow, some of the things I read here scare me., posted by srd1074 on November 4, 2003, at 10:54:49
"Why would anyone take for granted a chemical that could potentially help them, but hurt them just the same."
Personally, I don't - take for granted, that is. The chacteristic you describe is inherent in all meds. Just to let you know, there are some of us that do talk with their drs. and PharmD's, do follow instructions. Risk/Benefit - how harmful is it not to treat potentially fatal disorders, not to mention just plain quality of life issues?
Posted by sedona on November 4, 2003, at 11:55:47
In reply to Wow, some of the things I read here scare me., posted by srd1074 on November 3, 2003, at 20:51:44
>wow, I can't believe I started all of this. Fish oil? Fish oil is to help lower your HDL. If you think it is going to solve your health problems, you are investing too much faith in the advice of the person who told you this.<
>I don't need to present research in place of opinion. I don't use fish oil remedies. I eat a healthy diet including a lot of fatty fish. I have no use for that type of remedy in my life, therefore I really don't need to go further into the basics of what the substance does. It would be like me researching insulin when I am not a diabetic. I have a pretty good working knowledge of what the substance does and how it works at the cellular level.<
I think you have made a fine point, that you feel as though you don't need to do further research on the use of fish oil since it is not a remedy that you use. I also believe that research is very important, some research is good and some is not, and it is important for us all to develop critical thinking when doing research and looking at drug studies. However, many people on this board and elsewhere have had great success with fish oil. There have been many exchanges on this board regarding the studies that show that high doses of fish oil can be effective treatment for depression and bipolar disorder. That is what many of us have found through our research.In the world of psychiatric medicine, fish oil is not considered that unusual.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 4, 2003, at 12:12:39
In reply to Re: Wow, some of the things I read here scare me., posted by srd1074 on November 4, 2003, at 10:54:49
> But watching people like my mother place so much faith in a substance based on what one doctor who was trying to make some money says, only to watch her fall further into her problems, makes me sad.
The problem here is not with the fish oil, but with the doctor shilling it. Don't blame the fish oil for human frailties. You need to develop reasonable expectations of what a substance will or will not do. Frankly, pharmaceutical company propaganda is more worrisome than some doctor exaggerating the potential health-promoting effects of a substance with clearly demonstrated health-promoting effects.
> No, I did not contradict myself.
Yes, you did. You presented anecdote, then discounted anecdote.
> I don't use fish oil remedies. I have a pretty good working knowledge of what the substance does and how it works at the cellular level.
IMHO, if you truly understood, you would not discount the use of fish oil.
> Why would anyone take for granted a chemical that could potentially help them, but hurt them just the same.
And, why would anyone take for granted a class of chemicals that will not hurt them, but may help them, just the same?
Lar
Posted by srd1074 on November 4, 2003, at 12:38:54
In reply to Re: Wow, some of the things I read here scare me. » srd1074, posted by tensor on November 4, 2003, at 11:19:19
I am not referring to not taking medicine at all. I am talking about people taking unnecessary and clearly uneducated chances with their meds. I remember for example that someone asked if it is okay to not wait the complete downtime after coming off an MAOI before starting an SSRI.
I am talking about the person who took adderal to help them think. It didn't seem like it was their prescription based on the posting. Could be wrong, but that is not why the drug should be taken. It should be for people who can't focus on one thing long enough to retain information. Yes, psycho-stimulants have that added bonus of clarity of thought, but this should not be taken for granted.
I am talking about people who take one drug to alleviate the withdrawl from another. I understand the necessity of this for something like cocaine or heroin, but ritalin? Go to sleep.
These are the types of things that I am talking about.
I take meds. I am narcoleptic. I also take two that have not been thoroughly researched as to the potential risks of their combined effects. In fact, other more potent substances are showing bad side effects.
However, I did this at my discretion and per my own idea. I also did it after fully discussing the potential problems with my doctor and my pharmacist and reading every little piece of information I could about both drugs and even their relatives. I carefully weighed all the potential pros and cons and watched my body like a hawk for the first few weeks. I still keep an open eye.
As for consulting paid professionals, I did not say ignore them or completely trust them. I said to listen to them and consider the source. Pharmacists are one of your best sources - Especially if you live in a state where they do not have the right to prescribe medication. The reason being because they are not as likely to be influenced by the pharmaceutical companies. They go to several years of school that focus on the chemistry and biology of the chemicals that we call medicine. They know their drugs well. They are the ones that frequently have to call the doctor and tell them "you can't mix these two." Doctors go to school to study anatomy, physiology, microbiology (to study disease), immunology.... and their specialties. They do study some medicine, usually those relative to their specialties, but it is a small, small fraction of their education.
My point is to get your facts by learning from all resources. Do not limit your resources or you will come up with only a partial truth. Consider the hidden motives of your resources. Consider the educational background and experience of your resources. Also, consider that these chemicals affect everyone differently. One person's side effects may not be another's. However, those warning labels and directions are there for a reason - not because YOU may experience something bad, but because studies have indicated that this is the safest parameter. Consider the fact that if it is too good to be true, it probably is. Look to the long run. I am seeing some microwave society problems withing the context of these postings. (The guy who didn't want to wait 2-4 extra days before starting the SSRI) We want a pill to just fix us. While, many of the issues that I am reading here need medicine, these medicines are not the only part of the solutions and probably aren't going to give a very fast solution. The opposite holds true as well.
S.
Posted by srd1074 on November 4, 2003, at 12:44:22
In reply to Re: Wow, some of the things I read here scare me. » srd1074, posted by sedona on November 4, 2003, at 11:55:47
I am for any thing that aids in the solution to a problem, especially it if has negligible side effects. I only put a foot of caution out to placing complete faith in one thing. That is all. Even my own meds, I treat them like a small child. Watch them, worry about them, trust them only so much, but treat them with TLC.
S.
Posted by srd1074 on November 4, 2003, at 13:00:05
In reply to Re: Wow, some of the things I read here scare me., posted by KellyD on November 4, 2003, at 11:39:53
I don't think everyone here does. Only some of the things that I read here scare me. There is a reason why I was attracted to this message board. Some of it is in complete shock, some of it is to compare what I research to the lives of others. I do read that people here are taking care of themselves. However, I wanted to put this posting up to talk about those who don't in hopes that maybe it will affect even one person who doesn't.
My motivations for going into medicine are my own experiences with some of my doctors' lack of education, my health insurance company telling them how to treat me, my peers and families all trying to tell me I was depressed when I knew deep down I was not, and all the crap that I had to go through to finally find out that because I knew my body better than anyone else, I had been right the whole time. I have also found that I LOVE research and science - especially neurology and genetics.
If I had listened to any ONE person or resource, I would have never found out my actual problem, and I would be on about 10 different medications to treat all the symptoms. I was aggressive in my refusal to treat symptoms without knowing the underlying cause. For example, even being iron deficient should be considered before treating it. Why is it there? Anemia is not a disease, it is a symptom. Its kind of like AIDS. AIDS is not a disease, it is a symptom of HIV. HIV is the disease. You can have the same symptoms of AIDS and not have HIV. I hope to encourage people to look for deeper causes. Even look to the factors that may have caused real diseases. For example, bipolar disorder does not usually start in childhood (though I acknowledge it sometimes does). It is a theory that people who are bipolar have a genetic predisposition to the disorder that is brought on under certain environmental conditions. Stress and anxiety seem to play a big part since they affect cortisol levels.
This is the intention of starting this posting. I chose the heading I did to gain attention so that I would have a great response. I wanted to get people thinking about this issue that may or may not be a reason for it. My hopes is that it would make a difference.
S.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 4, 2003, at 13:00:20
In reply to Re: Wow, some of the things I read here scare me., posted by srd1074 on November 4, 2003, at 12:38:54
> My point is to get your facts by learning from all resources. Do not limit your resources or you will come up with only a partial truth.
> S.I'm much more comfortable with your position now. I felt an air of condescension before that.
What I mean is, not everyone *can* interpret the evidence in the way that, say, you or I might. We have a background in science, and it permits us to assess the validity and reliability of what we read. Even the language of science might as well be written in Greek, for people lacking a scientific background.
The greatest gift you can give is access to your knowledge and interpretive skills. Welcome.
"A teacher affects eternity." Henry Adams
Lar
Posted by srd1074 on November 4, 2003, at 13:09:56
In reply to Re: Wow, some of the things I read here scare me. » srd1074, posted by Larry Hoover on November 4, 2003, at 12:12:39
Lar, I am sorry, but you are clearly reading my postings out of context. I never discounted fish oils. My point was that I know what they do down to a cellular level and in MY LIFE an EXTRA fish oil remedy beyond my diet would not have any added benefits.
The point of my posting was to say not to have too much faith in one thing - don't put all your marbles in one bag. Consider all sources and their motivations. The doctor who promoted fish oils is no better than a pharmaceutical company promoting their product. Take for example bayer aspirin. Aspirin has few to almost no bad side-effects. The only thing that is not negligble is that some people don't digest it so well. Yeah, and some people are allergic to fish. The only thing about that doctor is that his product isn't as lethal as say phen-fen or serzone. But, his motivation is to make a buck. I am not saying that he is wrong, his research has some credit to it. However, so does the FDA mandated research of the pharmaceutical companies. They are all as equally biased.
S.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 4, 2003, at 13:13:37
In reply to Re: Wow, some of the things I read here scare me., posted by srd1074 on November 4, 2003, at 13:09:56
> Lar, I am sorry, but you are clearly reading my postings out of context.
I was reacting to the meta-message.
> S.
Don't make me want to take back what I just posted, 'kay? ;-)
Lar
Posted by srd1074 on November 4, 2003, at 13:37:19
In reply to Re: Wow, some of the things I read here scare me. » srd1074, posted by Larry Hoover on November 4, 2003, at 13:00:20
Yes, it is true that most medical stuff is in common man's greek - I still have a hard time with a lot of it. However, on that, when I was trying to assess myself, it was before I went back to school and had any science background. There is some really easy-read stuff out there. One type of source that I found to be great was the support networks out there. I am not referring to "support groups," but organizations that have been created to inform and educate non-medical people. I am narcoleptic. The day I put all the pieces together was the day that I found Narcolepsynetwork.org. Their page gave me the last piece to the puzzle. After that I spent a lot of time comparing my findings to other sources to decide if this was a valid self-diagnosis. Then, I researched the medications (and their side effects actually added to my validity). Then, I read stuff like these postings to see how similiar my life problems were. Then, I called a sleep disorders neurologist. He put me through all the necessary testings and here I am. No longer do I have to take iron pills and diabetic meds. No longer are doctors trying to shove toxic ADs like serzone down my throat to treat my "insomnia." That drug isn't even one associated with treating sleep disorders. GEEESH! Now, I have my Ritalin (at my request due to the cost of Provigil) and my Paxil for my cataplexy. Aside from having to schedule around the 6-hour time limits of each pill, my life is just about normal. Why none of the other meds? Because I had a theory that proved to be right. I kept telling my doctors and my family that "my get up and go, got up and left." I also said that I think that the reason why I am borderline diabetic is because my body's metabolism is slow because I am too damned tired to metabolize. I was right. No issues when I am on stimulants. No more sleepy face right after I eat. My blood is even a darker shade of red - a sign of being higher in nutrients. My grumpy ass mood goes away when I have my meds. People would swear I was depressed because I was grumpy all the time. Well, wouldn't you if could never quite wake up?
The efforts I went through to be diagnosed were ones that I didn't expect to have to go through. I had thought up to that point that if I went to a doctor or two, someone could tell me what was wrong. Problem is, general practitioners aren't educated in sleep disorders beyond sleep apnea and those related to depression. UGGHHHH!!!
This is why I highly encourage people to get out there and know everything they can about their body and how it works and what they put into it. No need for and A&P class. I am talking about knowing your individual body, getting into a gym and maybe talking to a trainer about A&P and nutrition. Talking to a nurse or ... the list of references are endless.
S.
Posted by srd1074 on November 4, 2003, at 13:40:31
In reply to Re: Wow, some of the things I read here scare me. » srd1074, posted by Larry Hoover on November 4, 2003, at 13:13:37
Yeah, I am not much of a meta-message person. Don't read into my stuff. I think and process VERY, VERY differently than most people, or so says a couple of personality inventories and a therapist or two. Anyway, if you read into me, the message won't come out right. Take it for its surface value.
S.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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