![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 121 to 145 of 458. Go back in thread:
Posted by St. John on October 27, 2003, at 12:37:04
In reply to Lamictal side effects, posted by seamus o'noolan on June 30, 2003, at 17:37:40
Here's a question that has relevance, I guess. I hope by departing from the current tangent, I'm not being too self-centered.
I'm in the midst of some sadness now that is not related to depression. I'm able to "feel" the sadness in the best and most meaningful way, and it is not pulling me into the despair that I have with an episode of major depression. Moreover, it's unrelated to the hopelessness that is part of my normal state of mind. It's good to feel the sadness, at least in part because it's congruent with the source of the sadness and it would be inauthentic not to feel it. However, in the past while on AD's I couldn't feel much of anything, including sadness. Is there any opinion out there about Lamictal and proportional emotions? I'd love to hear about this.
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 27, 2003, at 18:34:20
In reply to Barb-cat, Katia--I need help!, posted by fluffy on October 26, 2003, at 10:31:02
Oh, dear Katy! Sorry I haven't gotten back to you until now - been away for a few days. Zyprexa might be the thing to get you through such a bad spell like this. Sounds like you're at your wit's end, and things can seem so hard when you're that down and scared and the brain circuitry is blown. Ditto Katia's advice to cry and cry and cry. You have to breathe and breathe as well since we all know how holding the breath when we're scared mobilizes anxiety to get away from that tiger.
Whenever I feel a good cry coming on I grab 3 fluffy bathtowels, go into the bathroom, somehow remember how to turn on the faucets and get into a hot bath with some aromatherapy oil. I cry into the fluffy towel to muffle the sound - it's nice to mop up with and a towel is so comforting anyway. Between the tears and the tub water you usually need 2 and then one to dry off. When a good wail is coming I turn on the faucets so no one can hear me sobbing into my towel.
It's a lovely place to have a cry, everything's so wet and primal. You can do the same thing in the shower too, not so relaxing but still wet and steamy. Somehow beats curling up into fetal position on the bed and sobbing into a pillow.
Afterwards a nice cup of chamomile tea and to bed with my journal. After journaling maybe I'll read a good trashy novel about someone who is miserable -the last thing I need is perky. Good to get some ice cubes and rub your tear-swollen face and eyes with them. All those people who annoy you can just fade away. For the most part they really are annoying so it's not just you. Pretty soon, your nerves will be soothed and you'll be clearer on the next step. Amazing what comes up once we start to cry and cry. It feels like a big sign of relief that it's out and not still inside.
Something to consider very carefully: might you be having a bad reaction to your meds? Maybe what you think is going on is something else - I have no advice or suggestions but perhaps piling such high doses on you and you're not feeling any better is saying something.
Dear Katy, things will get better, you just hang in there and get out a nice Fluffy-like crying towel. I'll sing you a lullaby tonight and wish you a restful sleep and sweet dreams. Love, Barbara
Posted by fluffy on October 28, 2003, at 9:02:07
In reply to Re: Barb-cat, Katia--I need help! » fluffy, posted by BarbaraCat on October 27, 2003, at 18:34:20
Hi Barb-cat, Katia, Ginger C--
Thanks for all of your posts. Lord knows I needed them. All of the Trileptal that was piled on me seems to have washed out of my system. The crying spells have stopped (for now). I'm not feeling like a million bucks, but I don't feel like I want to give up anymore. I start feeling like no-one or nothing will help me get un-depressed (no med, no person, no technique), and I get very fatalistic and start catastrophizing, which I guess is a "symptom" of depression. I just don't want to be stuck for another 5 months like I was last year. But maybe this one won't last long....Besides, since i've acknowledged my illness, I need to be prepared to be depressed again, and not feel like it's a failure on my part.
Anyway--Barb-cat I LOVE your crying advice. It's advice that could only come from a crying veteran!! I love the idea of making crying a sensual experience!
I have been blaming myself for all of this. I'm in the process of "labling" my depresssion and just taking it easy everyday, rather than beating myself up.
I'll find you in another thread and hi-jack again. (maybe i should just have a seperate PB e-mail account)...
thanks so much--many hugs to you,
Katy
Posted by katia on October 28, 2003, at 13:18:10
In reply to St. John--Sorry to hi-jack...Thanks you guys, posted by fluffy on October 28, 2003, at 9:02:07
Hi Fluffy,
glad you're feeling better (at least a little bit). You know, I've felt some of the most out of control crazy ON meds than off them. when the dose isn't right or if it's the wrong med, it can worsen everything. And it even worsens the hopelessness of it all BECAUSE you're on medication!!! and then we think, well nothing will work now, I'm a hopeless case. Seriously, i've had the worst "bottom dropping out losing it" feeling falling to my knees clutching my stomach and howling like I'm losing my mind - ON meds.
If the Tri. doesn't work at higher doses and it's not working now, maybe you should talk to your docotor and try Depakote or try upping the Lamictal.
keep in touch.
Katia
Posted by linnette on October 29, 2003, at 0:45:42
In reply to St. John--Sorry to hi-jack...Thanks you guys, posted by fluffy on October 28, 2003, at 9:02:07
Hey Katy,
I am so sorry that I haven't caught up to you until tonight, and that you have been having such a hard time. My heart goes out to you.
Perhaps the break-up did escalate the depressive episode. And I'm sure that your family's lack of support, or understanding of BP illness is nothing short of exasperating. It actually made me angry when I read your post about their reaction. You see, some of the folks I work with share the same attitude as your folks. I have heard the same exact comments and attitudes from those few folks I have gotten close to during my employment there. They just don't get it, and it pisses me off so much that I could just get on my soapbox sometimes. Of course even some folks with no religious foundation don't get it either.
I have some input; whether it will help you is uncertain. But here goes; I have been on lamictal for about 7 weeks now..And I am now up to 125 mgs. It has made a world of difference, although I am still having some mood swings, the major depression has lifted, and I am finally able to carry though on my tasks which is a huge improvement for me..The low mood does increase as my dose wears off. Maybe increasing the lamictal would help level you out even more. I know that it is stimulating for me as well, in a good way.
Also wondering if going off the wellbutrin cold turkey is what helped send you into the depressive tail spin, compounded with the break-up. I thought that wellbutrin was suppose to be less likely to cause mania than the other AD's. I took it a few years back, and when I quit cold turkey I went totally wacko..I just know that had I been on something else, to curtail the side effects or the withdrawal I would have been ok. I know that meds aren't the whole answer, but gosh, the way the mania kicked in...and then just stop the wellbutrin.. it seems sort of cold..but I'm no doc and you and your doc know your med history best. And it sounds like the trileptal decrease has maybe helped.
It sounds like you are doing a little better though, and crying does help. Especially when you are experiencing grief, it is very therapeutic.
Do take care, and I am thinking about you. I work during the day, and try to read the posts, and am still getting used to how to post..
Do take care and know you are in my thoughts.
Hugs,
Linnette.
Posted by linnette on October 29, 2003, at 1:14:38
In reply to Re: Lamictal side effects, posted by St. John on October 27, 2003, at 12:37:04
> Here's a question that has relevance, I guess. I hope by departing from the current tangent, I'm not being too self-centered.
>
> I'm in the midst of some sadness now that is not related to depression. I'm able to "feel" the sadness in the best and most meaningful way, and it is not pulling me into the despair that I have with an episode of major depression. Moreover, it's unrelated to the hopelessness that is part of my normal state of mind. It's good to feel the sadness, at least in part because it's congruent with the source of the sadness and it would be inauthentic not to feel it. However, in the past while on AD's I couldn't feel much of anything, including sadness. Is there any opinion out there about Lamictal and proportional emotions? I'd love to hear about this.
>
>hi St John,
I know what you are referring to. Since I have been increasing the lamictal I have been dealing with issues that I know were buried, but are now right in my face. And the sadness I feel for some things feel as though the event just happened.But it isn't a "bad" sort of sadness, just more introspection and a cleansing feeling, and I am able to confront my past without being so damn hard on myself. And I am not afraid of these emotions. The lamictal, for me, just makes me feel more normal and clear headed without being pulled into the black hole of depression or the agitated anxiety.
In all of my med trials, and after being on almost every AD and mood stabilizer there is out there I am feeling hopeful. (knocking on wood).
My moods are still a little shakey, as I am still ramping up on my dose, and I get irritable, sad, angry, but I don't think of them as "depression" in the sense that I did like a couple of months ago. It is more like "hey it is ok to feel these emotions, these things would make many folks emotional, it's ok."
So in answer to your post, yes, I have noticed the same reaction since being on the lamictal. But further perhaps it isn't the lamictal, but just the fact that our brain chemistry is normalizing (thanks to the lamictal), and we are feeling what everyone feels.
I enjoyed your post. Please keep sending feedback. Hopefully this was not too long of a post.
I am planning to go up to 150 on the lamictal and then will see my pdoc for an update.
Take care
Linnette
Posted by St. John on October 29, 2003, at 9:04:26
In reply to Re: Lamictal side effects, posted by linnette on October 29, 2003, at 1:14:38
Thanks for the honest response. It's funny, but there really is a difference between sadness with a source that has objectively "unhappy" content and depression that is pervasive and at least on one level transcends objective sources. To be authentic, one must be able to feel real sadness, and this is what, in my experience, ADs have denied. If resolution to depression means flat feelings with no objective lows, then it's almost as bad as being depressed. What's more, I can remember through the years the inability to feel real sadness--as well as no real experience of joy--that must have been something from my undiagnosed depression and disthymia. Thanks again.
Posted by fluffy on October 29, 2003, at 10:39:22
In reply to lamictal followup for fluffy, posted by linnette on October 29, 2003, at 0:45:42
Hi all--
Again--thanks so much for your posts and support. Linnette--thanks for getting back to me. I'm really glad that the Lamictal is working for you.
You know, it couldn't be more apparent to me that I AM bipolar when I look at the events of the past week or so. Sometimes I forget what the pit of depression feels like, and what it feels like to pull out of it and see the clouds part and have positive thoughts again. It's disconcerting, but hey--I know I need meds.
For whatever reason, I have had 3 (!!!) NORMAL days. I couldn't be happier. On monday, I got my appetite back. I was just taking it easy in my house, and I got hungry! I've been eating pretty well, and sleeping well without my benzo too! (I am knocking on wood, you can be sure).
I looked at my mood chart and saw that I have been taking Trileptal at 600mg for 3 weeks now. My hypothesis is that maybe it took that long for the stuff to settle in my system. I'd be willing to up the dose one notch again soon to see if it bothers me, but I really don't want to do the loading thing again. That's hospital stuff, and I was trying to KEEP my job by doing outpatient med adjustments. How I made it to work the past week, I'll never know. Thank god for my understanding co-worker. I had to miss work for three days. I really hope this lasts. But for now, I'll take a temporary cloud parting as a ray of hope.
As for the abrubt discontinuation of WB goes...well, I really don't know how else we should have done it. I was at the lowest dose of extended release (150mg) for only a week. It's possible that it put me in a temporary tailspin, but it wasn't unlike the turbulence I was feeling before. It's the least likely to cause a switch in BP folks, but it can definitely cause one, as I can attest now. It can also work beautifully for some people. My bipolar friend has been on it for a few years now, and she loves it as an AD.
Best of luck to all, and I'm glad everyone seems to be doing better.
Let's keep in touch.
Katy
Posted by fluffy on October 29, 2003, at 10:59:40
In reply to Re: Lamictal side effects, posted by St. John on October 29, 2003, at 9:04:26
Hi St. John--
I hope you are closer to giving Lamictal a try. It is really easy to tolerate the side effects, and they go away pretty quickly.
One of the great things about Lamictal (and other mood stabilizers) is that they don't seem to cause the apathetic, non-feeling that AD's seem to cause. I've heard that in some people, Lithium or Depakote causes a "wet blanket" feeling. But I have never heard anyone on this board complaining of that from Lamictal.
Two thoughts: (all of these ideas come from things I've READ, not experienced, to take from it what you will..)
1) Have you ever tried an SSRI with Wellbutrin? This seems to be a trend that is working well with lots of unipolar folks...some of them my friends. Apparently, the SSRI's work on seratonin receptors, while the WB works on the dopamine and norepinephrine receptors, getting all of them jump started. It causes fewer side effects than Effexor, which is supposed to have a similar action on all receptors.
2) Have you tried to augment an AD with Zyprexa (an atypical antipsychotic)? Zyprexa also works on all receptors, with a "shot-gun" effect. It is supposed to be very effective on depressions, esp. when used in conjunction with an SSRI. It can be a powerful add-on, just like Lithium.
If Lamictal fails to lift your depression, then there are many options to try as far as other mood stabilizers (alone or with AD's).
Good luck St. John. Keep in touch.
Katy
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 31, 2003, at 19:31:09
In reply to Re: Lamictal side effects, posted by fluffy on October 29, 2003, at 10:59:40
Hi Katy and All,
We sure do have a great buddy system here, eh? Sometimes I think youse guys are closer to me than most of my non-virtual friends! I'm glad you're doing better, Katy. I've been real busy lately and haven't had time to catch up on messages but came to this one first to see how you were doing. When the bottom falls out that's all there is. It's so hard to jump start those neurons into seeing anything but hopelessness and 'Aw, sh*t, here it goes again!'.St. John, the whole idea of valid sadness vs. depression sure would fill a philosophical tome. This world is in sorry shape and sometimes I think that anyone who isn't seriously depressed just isn't paying attention. It's a worthy thing to peacefully allow that sorrow in and not shove it away, although I think the saints are the only ones who can do this consistently. Until we know how to just be with the intense pain that we of the sensitive ilk experience so acutely, meds are good training wheels.
I know without any doubt that sadness and stress have triggered my genetic predisposition toward mood disorders. Hey, some people get heart disease, some get cancer, some get everything - I am so grateful that I don't have anything too serious on top of the mood grunge.
I deal with grief on a daily basis, my own, the plight of innocent creatures who are at the mercy of a violent reality called Life in the Third Dimension, the difficulty of finding a sense of life purpose that actually pays something when so much of all of our efforts are crucial at this time. I'm tired of jobs that are soul draining and a waste of time only to get that stupid paycheck to have enough money to go back to work another week. Argghhh! I guess that's why I got fibromyalgia and got too sick to work anymore. Drastic, but whatever works.
Life is just hard. It can be great, but even the good times are tinged with the dread of losing them. The Buddha's First Noble Truth is that 'Life if suffering' and boy was he right. But he also said that there's a way out of that suffering and that is to not cling to delusion, not cling to distractions to avoid the pain. That by just being with what is moment by moment gives rise to the trust that mind stuff is just that, just stuff. Letting it be, letting it pass through without causing it to stick through clenching around it allows it to go on its un-merry way.
One thing that's been helping me ALOT lately as I go through another round of intense anxiety and ultra-sensitivity, insomnia and clutched breathing is to keep telling myself that 'I can take it'. We keep forgetting this in the midst of despair - that we've been through it before, grew from it, and there's no reason why we can't do it again. It's only that clamping down, stopping the breath, resisting the discomfort (intense, yes, but we haven't died yet from it), that the crap gets lodged and sticks around. Fear feeds on itself. So here's a good trick. When it gets bad, just say loudly to yourself, whether you believe it or not (your frightened child will) 'I CAN TAKE IT!!'. Been working for me. Love to you all. - Barbara
Posted by katia on November 1, 2003, at 15:03:19
In reply to Re: Lamictal side effects » fluffy, posted by BarbaraCat on October 31, 2003, at 19:31:09
HI Barb,
Thanks for your long post of reassurance.
I decided on a whim to take my temp in the evening and even the afternoon. It's 97.3 pretty consistently even now in the morning since it's gotten colder. What of this? I thought temps were suppose to be colder in the morning. I'm proving to be the opposite of this. I'm upping the Lamictal as my only med at the moment and see how that goes - maybe adding Li. However, I'd prefer to try Armour instead of Li. if we get to that point. I'm always so friggin' cold I can't stand it. As soon as the weather gets below 65 degrees. I lose it.
What does Madame Barbara thinks of this?
katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 1, 2003, at 16:35:45
In reply to hypothyroid » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on November 1, 2003, at 15:03:19
Hi Miss KittyKatia,
Are you taking it orally or armpittedly? I've noticed about 1/2 degree less by armpit. I asked my naturopath about this and she said the verdict is out as to which is the better way to take it, but if yours is really less than 97.4 (and some say 97.6) then chances are you're hypothyroid. No matter what the standard TSH tests say. The TSH blood test measures pituitary/hypothalamus response to the level of circulating thyroid hormone but not what's actually getting into the cells. So even if your TSH is within normal bounds you could still be low. Another thing is that standard tests are just that, standard one size fits all. Many doctors think that as long as you're within the range, usually 0.2 to 5, then you're fine. Not so. Anything over 3 is too high, especially for people with mood disorders.Some of us have trouble converting T4 into T3 and the active form isn't getting to where it counts. There's been some controversy lately about the need for T3 at all. Alot of doctors think that T4 always gets converted to T3 and this may be so for many people, but not for all of us. I do much better and need much less when I'm on the natural dessicated thyroid.
Something that you might find interesting with your consistent 97.3 temp is that 2-1/2 years ago when I was at a very low point physically and emotionally I was tracking my temp. It was 97.4 pretty consistently no matter how much I whipped myself into activity. Always a bone chilling cold, and spacey unreal depression and weeping. My fibro symptoms were much worse also. On days when I was feeling relatively good my temp was higher.
So, if you are hypothyroid (and your body temp is the best indicator of this) then you could truly be feeling ghastly. The thyroid is basically the spark of life for our bodies and everything you can think of is affected when you're off, either hypo or hyper. You'd think that axiety would be mainly a hyper thing and too much definitely causes sweating, anxiety, palpitations, tremors. But hypo also causes anxiety along with coldness, constipation, depression, bipolar swings, frequent colds, weight gain, muscle cramps and aches (is implicated in fibromyalgia), a bone sapping weariness, insomnia and extreme morning draginess. Also, the cells' little furnaces can't burn hot enough to detoxify so you get that yucky toxic feeling as well.
Don't be pursuaded into thinking more iodine is the ticket. I've had many many healthfood store clerks insist on this and it ain't true. Iodine deficiency will definitely cause hypothyroidism, but most of us get plenty of iodine anyway and if there's a metabolic dysfunction iodine won't do it. Ultimately it's a symptom of some other problem, probably in the hypothalamus, but until someone figures out how to heal the root cause we're consigned to taking pills.
If you are hypothyroid then you're on thyroid medication pretty much for life unless a minor miracle occurs. Something you might try before anything is taking L-tyrosine, B6 and C together in the morning. L-Tyrosine 1M, Vit B6 100mg, Vit C 2G. Tyrosine is the precursor to thyroxine and dopamine. One caveat is L-tyrosine can be activating to bipolars, but I've never found it to be so and get a nice lift from it. It sounds like you have access to good complimentary health care and sometimes the best way to judge is to start taking a small dose to see. You also might be one of those who do well on T4 alone. It's really an experiment until you get it just right - just like our head meds. - Barbara
> I decided on a whim to take my temp in the evening and even the afternoon. It's 97.3 pretty consistently even now in the morning since it's gotten colder. What of this? I thought temps were suppose to be colder in the morning. I'm proving to be the opposite of this. I'm upping the Lamictal as my only med at the moment and see how that goes - maybe adding Li. However, I'd prefer to try Armour instead of Li. if we get to that point. I'm always so friggin' cold I can't stand it. As soon as the weather gets below 65 degrees. I lose it.
> What does Madame Barbara thinks of this?
> katia
Posted by katia on November 1, 2003, at 18:02:42
In reply to Re: hypothyroid » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on November 1, 2003, at 16:35:45
Hi Barbara,
Thanks for the info. I'm so dizzy as well and nauseous. I just went for a walk in the afternoon and came straight back and took my temp - 97.8 after a walk in the sun. I'll monitor it straight for a month. My period just ended so that could have something to do with it.
I'll try the l-tryo since I have it and the b and c vits.
cheerio.
kits.
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 1, 2003, at 20:39:36
In reply to Re: hypothyroid » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on November 1, 2003, at 18:02:42
Jeez, that's a bit on the low side especially after exercising. Yeah, your period could have something to do with it. Wouldn't it be great if you were hypothyroid and that fixed it up? Or put it this way, if you are hypothyroid it's no wonder you're feeling like crap - cold crap.
-Barbara> Thanks for the info. I'm so dizzy as well and nauseous. I just went for a walk in the afternoon and came straight back and took my temp - 97.8 after a walk in the sun. I'll monitor it straight for a month. My period just ended so that could have something to do with it.
> I'll try the l-tryo since I have it and the b and c vits.
> cheerio.
> kits.
Posted by otter on November 1, 2003, at 20:51:56
In reply to Re: Way to go!, posted by Dalilah on September 25, 2003, at 11:24:14
> Hey Barbara,
>
> Yes, me too! Tried a lot of antidepressants and they were horrible for the most part. I've been keeping a mood chart for the first time and it's been incredibly helpful. I just found one online and printed it out.
>
> I'm only on 600mg of Lithium so my level's on the low side. Don't know if this makes a difference but anymore gets me shakey and thirsty. 125mg of Lamictal barely helped me. I had to get to 200mg before I had any steadiness in mood and still lots of break through depression. But more recently 225 and 250 have been incredible. More energy, more focused but most importantly - a normal to elevated mood. Oh, it's just so great after what I've been through.
>
> I had some itchiness at the lower doses, but after my body became aclimated I guess, I've had no itch. I always go up 25mg at a time. And at these higher levels I've had no itchies.
>
> -Dalilah
Dalilah-Can you tell me where you found the mood chart online? I was diagnosed with Bipolar II today and given lamictal to take in addition to my Celexa and I am worried the lamictal will make me more anxious/agitated or depressed. Thanks!!
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 1, 2003, at 21:40:06
In reply to Re: Way to go!, posted by otter on November 1, 2003, at 20:51:56
>I was diagnosed with Bipolar II today and given lamictal to take in addition to my Celexa and I am worried the lamictal will make me more anxious/agitated or depressed.
**Hi Otter,
Are you going to be titrating off the Celexa? If you're BP-II SSRIs are contraindicated. In fact, the major criteria for BP-II could be is that it gets worse with SSRIs. As for lamictal, taking it with lithium has been the best combo I've taken in over 20 years of meds. Lithium seems to give Lam a real boost and offsets agitation. You might also want to give this book a try. It explained alot for me about why my dx of unipolar major depression wasn't right and why I hit the wall from taking SSRIs: "Why your depression isn't getting better" by Michael Bartos, MD. Lamictal is a very good med. I wish you the best of luck. - BarbaraCat
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 1, 2003, at 21:41:35
In reply to Re: hypothyroid » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on November 1, 2003, at 18:02:42
Hey Katia,
What was that Arvo CD you recommended? He's got so many! - Barbara
Posted by katia on November 2, 2003, at 1:33:57
In reply to Re: hypothyroid » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on November 1, 2003, at 21:41:35
Ha ha. We're still on that!
I actually have to give it back. I "broke up" with a friend and it was hers. (it was a healthy choice to end the friendship).
Alina is the name.
I'll have to go and buy it now.
I ordered that Bartos book from B&N. I'll pick it up soon.
HOw're you otherwise?
I'm hesitant to start Li. if I am hypothyroid. I think I should try thyroid meds first before adding Lithium. I was so tired today. I don't get it. Maybe it's depression coming on - a bad one - I can feel the listlessness and the sallow rooms after the sun goes down so quickly. Everything is sallow. It's like the whites of my eyes go sallow and the lens' of my eyes do too. I feel stale and luke warm and shivering loneliness. This is a long lasting depression I feel enhancing itself. Not the couple day cyclic stuff, but a long going one. I can feel it. Taking the Depakote away has "reduced" my Lamictal; today I upped to 75mg, but with the way I feel I need more! in a week I go to 100. Quitting drinking is a bit of an downer too I think. really. whereas before in my depressed states, I'd mask it with alcohol. or in an exhausted/depressed state = alcohol booster did the trick. Even Styron didn't get his first depression until after his 50's and it was because he QUIT drinking! How's your sobriety?
take care,
katia
Posted by fluffy on November 2, 2003, at 11:46:58
In reply to Re: hypothyroid » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on November 2, 2003, at 1:33:57
Hi you guys--
I just have to report this-- I've had 7 (!!!) NORMAL days!!! I know this is success, as I had been rapid cycling for at least 3 months (about a 10 day cycle), if not more mildly for the past year or so. I could even feel myself switch during the day...I'd look at my mood chart and go, "here I go again...like clockwork". Either the fish oil has kicked in, or the Trileptal is zapping the rapid cycling...either way, I don't want to mess with it. I also considered getting my thyroid checked out, i.e. asking what my level was instead of my pdoc saying...it's normal. My mom has Graves disease, and she's been harping on me for years to get it checked out.
I had a crazy halloween party two nights ago, and I indulged in drinking for the first time in months. I have to admit that it was REALLY FUN. I haven't paid for it yet. But I know it's a once a year deal...
Katia--I'm so sorry you're feeling crappy. As you did for me, I'm sending some TLC your way. If it is depression, just remember that IT GETS BETTER! Something I couldn't imagine a week ago. Also, if it helps...it took me about 3 months to pull out of a 3 month depression when I was first diagnosed, cycling pretty wildly after my stint on SSRI's. It seemed never-ending. Lamictal gave me some hope, but I felt my hopes being dashed again over the past 2 months or so. Now I'm back to hoping again. There's something to the saying, "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger." I know that you know that, but you sure helped me with your warrior mind-set not too long ago.
Best to you...take lots of care.
Stay in touch,Katy
Posted by katia on November 2, 2003, at 13:30:42
In reply to Re: hypothyroid, posted by fluffy on November 2, 2003, at 11:46:58
HI Katy,
Thanks for your words. I'm feeling down yes. But so far it's a mild down. Like I went to a dinner(ish) party last night and it was torture. I was exhausted and people were too loud. And I wasn't drinking so that was no fun. Actually it wasn't hard not to partake; it was just hard because of my low mood. Part of this is me feeling sooooo dizzy and tired. My morning temps are low 97.3 I'm not sure what my blood pressure is.
If this doesn't improve, I'll put in a call to my doctor.
That's great your feeling tip top shape. It must have been about trying to adjust your meds. Glad to hear Trileptal works. I'll keep that in mind.
take good care,
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 2, 2003, at 14:44:46
In reply to Re: hypothyroid, posted by fluffy on November 2, 2003, at 11:46:58
Yaaaaayyyy Katy!
Isn't it amazing how we can go from the absolute pits to feeling pretty darn good? It seems that having hope is the thing that gets us through the really bad times. I can go through just about anything as long as I have that ray of hope that it's temporary, or that no matter what, I can stand it. I may not like it, but I can hold on until things get better. One good thing about feeling bad is how great you feel when you come out of it. On the other hand, clinging to the good times brings misery too in fearing their loss. I guess even keel is what I'm shooting for even though I have to admit that some days still suck big time.Trileptal, huh? That's very encouraging. It seems that for those for whom it works it works very well. That's one of the few I haven't been on. Guess I'll stick with lithium cause its working but I wish I could find something that isn't anti-thyroid.
BTW, you go get that thyroid checked out, girl. In fact, even before, start taking your morning temperature like Katia's been doing. It's not perfect but probably the best indicator of the state of how much thyroxine is being assimilated. The standard tests, even though sensitive, don't pick up how much of the hormone is getting into your cells.
In case you need instructions, here goes: if you can find a mercury basal thermometer, great, otherwise get a basal digital thermometer. A regular one is OK but digitals are notoriously inaccurate and basals are better. If mercury, shake down the night before. Take your temp (conflicting views on armpit or mouth, but mouth is easier and quicker) first thing when you wake up. Hold that pee and don't move around. Get the average for 5 days (wait til after your period). If it's lower than 97.6 you're probably hypothyroid. If lower than 97.3, definitely. I don't know what exact numbers for too high but probably around 98.4. Your Mom's Grave Disease is hyperthyroid which is a whole other kettle of fish that I'm not familiar with. But a bum thyroid either way will leave you miserable. So glad you're doing well.
- Barbara
Posted by Dalilah on November 2, 2003, at 15:12:55
In reply to Re: Way to go!, posted by otter on November 1, 2003, at 20:51:56
Hi Otter,
I found the mood chart at http://www.manicdepressive.org/tools.html under "blank mood charts." This tool really helps me a lot.
Also, Lamictal did cause some agitation/irritation with the world but it went away pretty quickly. The tricky thing with this med is that you have to wait til you get up to a higher dose, in my experience, before you get the anti-depressant quality.
Good luck,
- Dalilah
> Dalilah-
>
> Can you tell me where you found the mood chart online? I was diagnosed with Bipolar II today and given lamictal to take in addition to my Celexa and I am worried the lamictal will make me more anxious/agitated or depressed. Thanks!!
>
Posted by BarbaraCat on November 2, 2003, at 15:22:43
In reply to Re: hypothyroid » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on November 2, 2003, at 1:33:57
> Ha ha. We're still on that! Alina is the name.
**I'm ordering it from Amazon TODAY so I don't have to keep bugging you.
> HOw're you otherwise?
**Pretty good. I just wish I were happier and less tense but am very grateful that I'm not in a crisis.
> I'm hesitant to start Li. if I am hypothyroid. I think I should try thyroid meds first before adding Lithium.
**Good idea. Lithium will just push it over and make you feel worse.
>>I was so tired today. I don't get it.
**Could be your thyroid. There's nothing like a low thyroid fatigue. It goes to the bones.
>>I can feel the listlessness and the sallow rooms after the sun goes down so quickly. Everything is sallow.
**Oh, that's a great way to describe it. Sallow. I know exactly what you mean about the sun and the sallow rooms. I've always gotten claustrophobic and depressed when I'm inside and the setting sun is coming in a west window. You probably know this one but it's always comforted me to know a great mind felt the same way.
There's a Certain Slant of Light
There's a certain slant of light,
On winter afternoons,
That oppresses, like the weight
Of cathedral tunes.Heavenly hurt it gives us;
We can find no scar,
But internal difference
Where the meanings are.None may teach it anything,
'Tis the seal, despair -
An imperial affliction
Sent us of the air.When it comes, the landscape listens,
Shadows hold their breath;
When it goes, 'tis like the distance
On the look of death.
-Emily DickensonGrim, but isn't that how we feel at times?
>>I feel stale and luke warm and shivering loneliness.
**Even if it turns out not to be thyroid, this coldness is telling you something that's probably more to do with physical than neuro.
>>Quitting drinking is a bit of an downer too I think. really. whereas before in my depressed states, I'd mask it with alcohol. or in an exhausted/depressed state = alcohol booster did the trick. How's your sobriety?
**Pretty good. I went off the wagon twice now for a birthday party and a dinner party, but only had 1 glass and it was plenty. I went right back to abstinence easily. Oh, there are times when I'd love to have a snootfull, especially when I'm cooking dinner, but the memory of how bad it made me feel wins over. I have no doubt that my problem drinking days are a thing of the past. It just ain't worth it, although I've love to find an equal high that you don't have to pay back.
There are days when I feel great, refreshed and clear. But others when I'm consumed with anxiety and tension. In the past I'd head right for the bottle because that anxiety is real hard to deal with and a drink would immediately put me in a better mood. Not fair!
Without it I notice how I much I ruminate and worry. If one of my cats is out I imagine wild beasts lurking in wait for it. I worry about money and winter coming on and there's very little I can do to take my mind off it. Life can seem very dangerous without something to numb out on. I think exercising alot more will help. In fact, its snowing right now in Oregon and I'm about to hoist up my petard for a walk.
>>Even Styron didn't get his first depression until after his 50's and it was because he QUIT drinking!
**Yeah, it's got to have something to do with what it was masking and the process of detoxifying. But his sure was something else.
> take care
**You too. And hugs to your thyroid.
-Barbara
> katia
Posted by foodie on November 2, 2003, at 15:47:46
In reply to Re: hypothyroid » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on November 1, 2003, at 16:35:45
To Barbara, Kaia & and fluffy:
I too am attempting to get off effexor only because I want to see if I am finally normal, my blood pressure is too high and I would like to stop taking the micardis. I am also hypothyroid and take 2 grains of Armour daily. Barbara, I was wondering if you know if the L-Tyrosine is harmful to the liver. My liver enzymes are way too high and I do not know if it from the wine I love or other meds. Any thoughts? Thanks to all.
Posted by katia on November 2, 2003, at 16:00:15
In reply to Re: hypothyroid, posted by foodie on November 2, 2003, at 15:47:46
Hi Foodie,
What were your symptoms for hypothyroid? And when were you diagnosed?
katia
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