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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 42 to 66 of 458. Go back in thread:
Posted by ginger C on September 26, 2003, at 9:51:35
In reply to Re: Lamictal side effects - URGENT, posted by fluffy on September 25, 2003, at 16:14:40
I have been on Lamictal along with Lithobid for about three years and have had no problem with it other than it has not done as well in controlling the mood swings as I had hoped
Posted by fluffy on September 26, 2003, at 10:51:20
In reply to Re: Barb-cat...or anyone who can help me decide » fluffy, posted by BarbaraCat on September 25, 2003, at 19:08:06
Hi Barb-cat!
***Here we are again! Sorry to the others who's thread we've descended upon...hopefully this is interesting info. How was your vacation? I'm going to answer your questions one by one to clarify to you and myself what my thoughts are....
> So sorry you're feeling crummy, Katy. These ups and downs are so crappy. I sure wish there was a definitive test that could tell us what will work instead of the human dart board method.
***Yes--it is crummy. I was lamenting to my bipolar friend last night about the med trial thing. I said that it feels like we're being offered 5 black pools to jump in, but one or both of them could save you--or they could swallow you whole!--but you won't know until you jump in.
>
> I also am feeling kinda down, little energy, lack of focus and direction. I know if I put a little effort into exercising it would help and take off on it's own steam, but I just don't wanna. I feel too clunky and poopy to navigate the neighborhood. But I know it'll pass eventually - they always do and I come out and think, well, that really wasn't so terrible, it was just the dirty lens I was looking through. But even so, I'd rather be feeling better NOW.***Oh--I know!! I've been dragging myself out of bed in the mornings...I can barely get myself through my yoga. But I always feel better after. Sorry you are feeling low, too. POO POO!!
>
> It sounds like you're not taking lithium any more? I personally think that Lam on it's own isn't enough to handle bipolar depression and you're going to need something else, whatever that may be. But who knows how it is at higher doses? I'm just at 125mg and I've talked with others on this board who say that it really took off at 250mg.
***Nope--no more Li. It just wasn't worth it. I felt like I was 80 yrs. old and confused as hell!! Yeah--actually it occurred to me that maybe just a little bump in the Lam dose would do the trick. So if an addition of a mood stabilizer doesn't work, then maybe another bump up on the Lam.> I have no experience with trileptal, but I just communicated with someone on this board, perhaps this thread even, who mentioned she was on 500mg lamictal and trileptal, and loved it, and needed that much Lam. I'm going to research trileptal and if it looks tolerable I'll talk to my pdoc about it. I'm concerned about lithium's effects on my thyroid and it sounds like you had other bad effects from it. Although it's been a good drug for me, I feel like I need a change of scenery in the med department.
***My decision tree is this: Try the trileptal with Lam. If it don't work, then try Depakote with Lam. If it don't work, but helps my sleep but makes me feel sluggish, then I'll kick the benzo and try an AD or up the Lam. Last resort is the AP's I think.
***It's tough, eh?? You'll never know unless you try...but I hate all that stuff about switching drugs and then coming back to them--"they won't work as well as they did before". As if we needed any more bad news!! But if you switch, I really hope it works better for you. Let us know what and if any changes happen.
> I can't say one way or the other about Lam and Wellbutrin. I was taking Wellbutrin and Zoloft for a while and felt terribly speedy and unstable on it. I just felt wired and still depressed. This was before my bipolar dx so it wasn't a good combo for me without a mood stabilizer. But who knows how Wellbutrin would be with Lam? It's not an SSRI so it might be worth a try, especially if you're feeling like you're dragging. Another thought: you're sure you're bipolar? When is the last time you had a manic/hypomanic swing? Could your manic episodes have been something else? I remember you were on Zoloft for awhile and had pretty good luck with it? If you're actually unipolar depressed, then perhaps an AD along with Lam or another mood-stabilizer would be the way to go.
***Actually, the Zoloft didn't do a damned thing. It was shortly after a mixed state on Lexapro that I was put on the zoloft instead. My doc was convinced that I was unipolar. When I stopped the Zoloft, I felt much better. Too many drugs tap-dancing on my serotonin receptors!! Not good! Then I just had about 4 more months of a bad, but not suicidal depression. THEN I got the bipolar diagnosis.
**I haven't had a CLEAR CUT, long lasting hypomanic episode in awhile. But I definitely had one before my last depressive episode last summer. Couldn't sleep a wink, in love with 3 guys at a time, arguing with people, etc.... Since the SSRI business, I seem to be rapid cycling, and I have a day or two days of hypomania..racing thoughts and irritability, no sleep. Then I have mini depressive episodes for a couple of days. If I'm lucky, then I'll have a normal day or two.
>
> Have you ever taken one of the antipsychotics like seroquel, zyprexa, risperdal? Sometimes these act like a mood stabilizer and help where other's don't, but have other side effects, mainly weight gain. I was on Zyprexa for awhile when I was going through the worst of my pre-bipolar dx depressions. This was along with Zoloft. It didn't do a thing for me, but others have good things to say about it.***Hmmm. No--haven't tried the AP's yet. I guess if I get into some deep doo-doo it would be worth a trial.
>
> I was greatly helped this past winter after my Mom died by adding Nortriptyline for 3 months. I didn't like the dry mouth and I developed tremors (these diminished somewhat eventually) which is why I quit but it pretty much saved my life. Sometimes TCA's will work when all else fails in a severe depression. I've read many posts here from people who recommend Nortrip very highly and I agree.***No TCA's yet either. Haven't had a major depressive episode since Lamictal...just rapid cycling, like cyclothymia stuff.
>
> And finally - have you ever tried an opiate like hydrocodone(Vicodin) and felt better immediately? I've gotten on some threads here where there's an effort going on to convince the psychiatric folks that opiates are a potent and quick acting antidepressant and probably better than anything on the market currently. I've been helped alot by taking a Vicodin when I just couldn't stand it anymore but felt I was resorting to junkie-dom. It turns out there's very good reason why it relieves mental anguish - pain is pain, after all. There are new ways of dealing with the tolerance and addiction problems as well. The only major drawback I can see is the dang constipation thing. Ah, so many choices.***I can't say I'm ready for the opiates yet. I do have some vicodin in my cubby from when I had a kidney stone. Nope, not yet.
Let me know what comes out of this - keep in touch, girlfriend. - Barbara
***But of course, Barb-cat!! You as well.
Lovins,
Katy
Posted by fluffy on September 26, 2003, at 11:04:17
In reply to Re: Barb-cat...or anyone who can help me decide » fluffy, posted by katia on September 26, 2003, at 0:18:11
Hi Katia--
It's good to see you and Barb-cat's names again. I needed some time away from PB to try and just concentrate on how I was feeling.
Katia--I'm very, very glad that Depakote is working. Count yourself lucky--really!! I asked before, but maybe you didn't know yet. But is PCOS reversable? Because if it is, then you could just get tested (probed) every so often and rest your mind. If it does appear to be showing up, then you could try another mood stabilizer.
It really sucks, but all bipolar drugs carry some long term risks--liver damage, thyroid damage, weight gain. As to the weight gain thing...this may seem patronizing...but do you have an exercise regimine in place? It seems to help my mood. And for you, it may keep the extra few pounds off. From what I've heard, there's actually a weight gain "threshold" with Dep. For example, if you rapidly start to gain weight, then you could drop down a dose and see if it is still a problem. But for now, a few pounds may be worth some stability! I've developed some pretty nasty acne on Lamictal. I don't like it. Doesn't make me feel very attractive--can't wear my fave tops anymore. But for the sake of a better mood, I just live with it.
Again--so glad you are feeling better!! YAY KATIA!!!
Hugs to you too!
Katy
Posted by katia on September 26, 2003, at 14:49:02
In reply to Re: Barb-cat...or anyone who can help me decide, posted by fluffy on September 26, 2003, at 11:04:17
Hi Katy,
I think what best could describe my mood is what you said - cyclothymia (sp?). And it's a step up from where I was. So something is happening, but the sluggishness is not good.
I walk, hike, and do yoga. And I wait tables 2-3x per week (with stairs). So it's not that. I even went to a metabolic nutritionist a few weeks back and got on a diet for my "type" and most people lose a lot of weight, i've remained.And no, the PCOS is not reversible. And as I said before, I've been too wounded with pregnancies not working out in the past due to various reasons -mainly now in retrospect due to me being a basket case (remember the term). Now I realize what was fueling that - bipolar.
anyway, I really want kids, it's not something I want to play around with when there are other options. AND b/c of the other s/e I"m having AND b/c it's not totally doing the trick. I think the Lam. could help - I"m only at 10mg now.
The way my pdoc is doing things, I won't (hopefully) be w/o any m/s at any time; to hopefully transition easily. He's doing it slowly too.
But we'll see. What has dawned on me is that I'm much better than I was a year ago, even six months ago and that's good news.
I'm also reading "Bipolar Survival Guide", the one you were reading; and everything is so intertwined and multi-layered. There's so much about my lifestyle that I can do to improve the mood, i.e. less drinking, regular sleep. I either sleep too much or too little. And I'm going to join a support group in the area for BP. The other thing I've noticed is that when I feel good, I look around at all the voids and it feels lonely and so I get sad. Is that depression or is that me just naturally grieving? Stuff like this to be aware of. And then I start to fill the voids by ,i.e. joining a belly dance troupe! and so forth and then it gets tooooo full and then I crash b/c of the stress....etc. I need moderation.
anyway,
I'm working it from all angles.
I really recommend that you try either Tri. or Depakote. You sound BP; and you sound more like a rapid cycler, in which case I've heard the anti-convulsants are better instead of Lithium. And you haven't tried any of them yet (minus Lam). So don't give up! you still have a lot of options.
good to hear from you again too. I also needed a psychobabble break. I think we all did.
Katia
Posted by fluffy on September 26, 2003, at 15:14:14
In reply to Re: Barb-cat...or anyone who can help me decide, posted by katia on September 26, 2003, at 14:49:02
Thanks so much Katia--
Let's see...Yeah--I can see why you wouldn't want to risk the PCOS if you want kiddos some day. I, on the other hand DON'T want them--not anytime soon...so I would consider Depakote as an option. I'm feeling encouraged to try another anti-convulsant as you and others have suggested. I really need to take care of the speedy, sleep deprived side of this crap w/o a benzo.
Supposedly, Trileptal has a relatively low side effect profile. I think that's what I'm reaching for first.
And you know, I think ALL of us BP's can relate to the hurry up and wait business. When I feel good, I'm like--ok--gotta get the stuff done I couln't do before. Then I do too much and fall flat on my face and can't even do the dishes. DITTO!
You really seem better Katia. I can't hear your voice, but I can sense a bit more optomism in your posts. It's great. I'm feeling determined to beat this thing. I know you are too. *sniffle*
take lots of care,
Katy
Posted by katia on September 26, 2003, at 15:46:33
In reply to Re: Barb-cat...or anyone who can help me decide, posted by fluffy on September 26, 2003, at 15:14:14
Yes, I do feel a bit better, esp. after upping the Lam. to 10mg two days ago. I'm getting that inspired, I can function feeling.
anyway, I had a bit of a crash just before upping the Lam. But I'm up and running again. I get tired easily tho' that's the bad bit.
If you are having trouble sleeping, depakote may be for you, but then again Tri. could be good too.
take good care,
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 27, 2003, at 0:36:28
In reply to Re: Barb-cat...or anyone who can help me decide, posted by fluffy on September 26, 2003, at 10:51:20
Hi Katy,
Well, I'm feeling better today. It's like the weather - wait and it'll change. Saw Pirates of the Caribbean and it was great. Talk about two different guys - Jack Sparrow and Will Turner. But I'm in love with them both! Guess that's why they call me bipolar.I like your decision tree idea. So, you've decided to go on tri for sure? You will be our official test pilot. I'm going to stay on lithium and ask for time release. I feel better today and hence feel better about my drugs, but I will be increasing lam slowly up to around 200mg. From all accounts, it seems like the magic number and from that point on doesn't cause the activation, so I hear. I'm also hoping that I'll eventually feel like dragging my butt around the block or something because THAT is the best antidepressant going. I think that's the whole idea for me behind taking these meds - getting to a place where I can start moving my stuck energy again.
You know, what you're describing about your bipolar starting only after taking SSRI's, if that's what I read correctly, sounds like Bipolar-III or BP-IV. I'm not too familiar with the treatment details since I'm most definitely BP-I,II (or am I?) but I recall that the treatment is somewhat different. So perhaps that's why lithium didn't work for you since it's more a BP-1,II thing. Of course, with all the esoteric stuff we're all taking and all disorders overlapping into the other, who knows what anymore. Don't remember if I asked this, but have you tried mongo doses of fish oil, as in liquid? I do think it's helping me. Makes the cell membranes more fluid.
My vacation was so-so. My husband had hernia surgery and it was too soon, so we came back early. Then we went to a wonderful place on the ocean which was great until another couple joined us. My husband and the guy are friends, but I've always had a problem with the woman. A whiny victim/martyr bitch who complains about everything, is clearly mood challenged and refuses to get help, choosing to blame everyone else constantly, as in all the friggin' time. I felt like a toxic waste dump site. Wore me down and trashed my good mood until I finally said 'Look, you've had these exact same problems ever since I've known you and I can't listen to it anymore. It's time to shit or get off the pot. Get a divorce, quit your job, tell your abusive ungrateful jerky kids to leave you alone, put up or shut up, but above all - GET HELP!!'. Well, you can imagine what a lovely time we all had after that. They left early and hub and I enjoyed the rest of our time at the ocean.
I'll probably arrange to meet with her to talk about this more civally and maybe she'll be open to my observations that she really is hurting and in need of more help than her acquaintances can provide. I sure hope so for her sake, but at least I probably won't have to see her much anymore - yay!
You know, we're all dealing with alot of stuff and we all have some days worse than others and moan more sometimes, but jeez, you've at least got to try! Here among my friends on this board, we've all been through hell, but we're at least trying the best we can to do the work, get help, pay for the office visits and meds, come up for air time and time again. Even though we have real bad times of paralysis and rage and stupidity, and even though we sometimes just want to roll over and give up - we don't, and it's damned hard work but we keep on fighting for our lives - and that's what I love about us. It's that 'I don't need help - it's all their fault so why should I do anything' whining victim crap that makes me see red. People who aren't willing to do the work and yet think it's OK to use everyone around them as trash recepticles - cowards! Hrmmph! I better stop now and think about something nice before I start acting as detestible. In fact, the swing I just experienced from the beginning of this post to now makes me wonder if I have cyclothymia!
So, how was your show? Haven't heard about the outcome of it. You were feeling a little rocky beforehand. Did you manage to maintain your equanimity? There, I feel better. Hasta - Barbara
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 27, 2003, at 0:58:04
In reply to Re: Barb-cat...or anyone who can help me decide » fluffy, posted by katia on September 26, 2003, at 15:46:33
Hi Katia,
First and most importantly, you joined a belly dance troupe? That's superb! I belly dance as well, have for years, and it's absolutely wonderful. Of course, I slug off for months at a time, but it's always so wonderful every time I get off my butt and do it. I do primarily tribal fusion.You do sound a lot more up, really and truly. You might find that Lam will have it's zippy spikes and then subside so don't get concerned if it poops out. It's just adjusting. I was able to stay at 25mg for a few months and then 50mg for over 6 months. If I hadn't run into some major stress hurdles I might have been able to hold steady there for longer, so you never know.
I'm going to stick with lithium, even tho I said I was wanting a change of scenery to Katy. Today is a good day and I think it's because I upped the Lam a tad, just 12.5mg. Some day I'm going to try to slowly reduce lithium, mainly because of the thyroid thing. I don't have any other s/x I'm aware of. I'm hoping with all the other naturopathic stuff I'm doing I'll be able to wean myself way down on the meds. Wouldn't that be nice! Less expensive too!
I am going to check out the mdiet website. As I think I mentioned before, I've the Metabolic Type Diet book and it made sense from what I could discern. It also jibes with my profile in the Blood Type Diet which I'm currently trying out.
I've really had it with my weight and lack of exercise level. I'm about 30 pounds overweight and not working out at all. My back has been hurting so I've been taking the opportunity to veg out and I really can't afford that kind of luxury anymore. My mood has lifted to the point where I can 'just do it' and I know that if I make myself 'just do it' a few times, things take off from there. I don't think I'm going to go with trileptal since I'm not willing to risk worse s/x than I have with lithium. The Devil you know...
Well, I hope things continue on their upward trend for you. One good thing about feeling so crappy is when you start to feel even a little bit better, it feels sooooo goooooood!! - Barbara
Posted by katia on September 27, 2003, at 2:53:56
In reply to All helping each other decide » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 27, 2003, at 0:58:04
> Hi Katia,
> First and most importantly, you joined a belly dance troupe? That's superb!
yay! yes I did. i got so caught up in the frenzy, I stayed for the beginner, intermediate, and advanced and the instructor said I did well and should join the troupe. So of course I bought the $65 skirt and signed up for a month's worth of classes with/o knowing if I even like her!
I had fun and it's sooooooo right up my alley that this is what i need right now, not chi-kung. really I get enough internal arts with yoga. I need an expressive sensual dance now. I need expression and an outlet! first and foremost!good to hear you do too. I knew it before from your previous posts. I used to a bit, but now I'm getting seriously into it. primal tribal fusion? I think this type is from northern Egypt? I'll let you know more when I do!
> You do sound a lot more up, really and truly. You might find that Lam will have it's zippy spikes and then subside so don't get concerned if it poops out.
I've found both these things so far.
>>It's just adjusting.
So the ups and downs will subside and I'll even out to a healthy plateau?>>I am going to check out the mdiet website. As I think I mentioned before, I've the Metabolic Type Diet book and it made sense from what I could discern. It also jibes with my profile in the Blood Type Diet which I'm currently trying out.
yes, check it out. I think there's mention of the blood type diet as being ineffective in that particular website : www.bloodph.com
It could be the diet. Altho' I haven't kept to as I should've . Two weeks ago due to that stressful hurtful event, I fell off the one drink only and more than one night I've partook in one to three drinks. and tonight I had bread with wheat in it. (and two and half glasses of vino - shhhh.)
I was perfect for two weeks and I'm still trying.> I've really had it with my weight and lack of exercise level. I'm about 30 pounds overweight and not working out at all. My back has been hurting so I've been taking the opportunity to veg out and I really can't afford that kind of luxury anymore. My mood has lifted to the point where I can 'just do it' and I know that if I make myself 'just do it' a few times, things take off from there. I don't think I'm going to go with trileptal since I'm not willing to risk worse s/x than I have with lithium. The Devil you know...
>
good. I was wondering why you wanted to radically change and get off of Li. when you'd been having such a good experience with it. Maybe just minor adjustments are needed.> Well, I hope things continue on their upward trend for you. One good thing about feeling so crappy is when you start to feel even a little bit better, it feels sooooo goooooood!! - Barbara
I agree!!!!!!
There was one more thing I wanted to say and i can't remember b/c it was in your other post to Katy, so I'll address it in the next one.
warmest wishes,
Katia
Posted by katia on September 27, 2003, at 3:09:20
In reply to Re: Barb-cat...or anyone who can help me decide » fluffy, posted by BarbaraCat on September 27, 2003, at 0:36:28
I remember now.
What you wrote in the previous post to Katy:
>>You know, we're all dealing with alot of stuff and we all have some days worse than others and moan more sometimes, but jeez, you've at least got to try! Here among my friends on this board, we've all been through hell, but we're at least trying the best we can to do the work, get help, pay for the office visits and meds, come up for air time and time again. Even though we have real bad times of paralysis and rage and stupidity, and even though we sometimes just want to roll over and give up - we don't, and it's damned hard work but we keep on fighting for our lives - and that's what I love about us.
here here to that.
I was in conversation with a friend a day or two ago. She doesn't suffer from depression and was coming to these "revelations" (for a non-depressed person). she was saying stuff like "we didn't choose to come into this world, but yet we find ourselves here and have to deal with it and suffer and whatever....."
(an aside here) it's always interesting to see people who don't live constantly in a state of despair and existential angst finally start to question these things in a normal frame of mind.But the conversation continued on, it is trully amazing what we will do to survive. And for what? What drives us to survive? In existential terms, we're born, we suffer, we die. get used to it.
But what keeps us from committing suicide upon our birth?
What keeps us from it in the midst of (as we on this board know too well) severe depression? What is behind the notion of hope?I think it's something stronger than we can cognitively imagine. It's life force.
There are birds from the Arctic that fly all the way to the Southern hemisphere and endure the most wretched suffering anguished lives simply to find a moment's worth of food to subsist just long enough to do it again. What drives them to endure? When they could just roll over and give up to the angel's above?
What force drives us? It's beyond cognition. it's somehow instinct.
It's beautiful. It's life living and surviving in one way or another.
one arctic bird here signing off.
Katia
Posted by Chicklet on September 27, 2003, at 10:31:31
In reply to Re: All helping each other decide » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on September 27, 2003, at 2:53:56
Holy cow- i see belly dancing...well, not right here in front of me. Although my kitty Joe is rather, er...um...big boned and his belly sways baaaack and forrrth...
I must read this thread but am seriously sleep deprived. Can you say, "6 hours in 3 nights, boy and girls?".
gotta call pdoc.
4 MILLIGRAMS OF PROSOM!!!! Yes i'm yelling. That yelling thing is bullshit anyway. Uhoh. Look Dr. Bob...I said bullshit.Talk soon to u guys?
Barbara of the Kitties, you better e me. No rush of course. but we're seeing the diabetic kitty tomorrow- and while I've googled it, I was just wondering your wise opinions on that subject...Katia- hi. I just skimmed the post below...glad to see you're up.
Must talk Lamictal and Trileptal...
WEll maybe...?
Karen> > Hi Katia,
> > First and most importantly, you joined a belly dance troupe? That's superb!
> yay! yes I did. i got so caught up in the frenzy, I stayed for the beginner, intermediate, and advanced and the instructor said I did well and should join the troupe. So of course I bought the $65 skirt and signed up for a month's worth of classes with/o knowing if I even like her!
> I had fun and it's sooooooo right up my alley that this is what i need right now, not chi-kung. really I get enough internal arts with yoga. I need an expressive sensual dance now. I need expression and an outlet! first and foremost!
>
> good to hear you do too. I knew it before from your previous posts. I used to a bit, but now I'm getting seriously into it. primal tribal fusion? I think this type is from northern Egypt? I'll let you know more when I do!
>
> > You do sound a lot more up, really and truly. You might find that Lam will have it's zippy spikes and then subside so don't get concerned if it poops out.
>
> I've found both these things so far.
>
> >>It's just adjusting.
> So the ups and downs will subside and I'll even out to a healthy plateau?
>
> >>I am going to check out the mdiet website. As I think I mentioned before, I've the Metabolic Type Diet book and it made sense from what I could discern. It also jibes with my profile in the Blood Type Diet which I'm currently trying out.
>
> yes, check it out. I think there's mention of the blood type diet as being ineffective in that particular website : www.bloodph.com
>
> It could be the diet. Altho' I haven't kept to as I should've . Two weeks ago due to that stressful hurtful event, I fell off the one drink only and more than one night I've partook in one to three drinks. and tonight I had bread with wheat in it. (and two and half glasses of vino - shhhh.)
> I was perfect for two weeks and I'm still trying.
>
> > I've really had it with my weight and lack of exercise level. I'm about 30 pounds overweight and not working out at all. My back has been hurting so I've been taking the opportunity to veg out and I really can't afford that kind of luxury anymore. My mood has lifted to the point where I can 'just do it' and I know that if I make myself 'just do it' a few times, things take off from there. I don't think I'm going to go with trileptal since I'm not willing to risk worse s/x than I have with lithium. The Devil you know...
> >
> good. I was wondering why you wanted to radically change and get off of Li. when you'd been having such a good experience with it. Maybe just minor adjustments are needed.
>
> > Well, I hope things continue on their upward trend for you. One good thing about feeling so crappy is when you start to feel even a little bit better, it feels sooooo goooooood!! - Barbara
>
> I agree!!!!!!
> There was one more thing I wanted to say and i can't remember b/c it was in your other post to Katy, so I'll address it in the next one.
> warmest wishes,
> Katia
>
Posted by Chicklet on September 27, 2003, at 10:39:23
In reply to Re: Barb-cat...or anyone who can help me decide, posted by fluffy on September 26, 2003, at 10:51:20
Posted by fluffy on September 27, 2003, at 11:31:02
In reply to Katy/Fluffy- we MUST talk!! Lam/Tri/Hydroco! me2 (nm) » fluffy, posted by Chicklet on September 27, 2003, at 10:39:23
Hi Chicklet--
Yes--let's keep in touch re: the Trileptal/Lamictal combo. Have you just started it? Or has it been working for you for some time? I see my doc this monday. I'm sure he'll approve my decision tree. He helped me greatly with information on the drugs out there. He is truly an angel when it comes to psychiatrists!
Did I also see that you are taking Vicodin?? Hmmm. If so, I'm seriously not sure about that business. Did your psychiatrist prescribe that?
But addiction is addiction, right? I think it's funny, b/c in a way, I'm "addicted" to Lamictal, in that I can't seem to sustain the AD effect unless I up the dose. Isn't that "addiction"?
Anyway--I truly wish we could all just have lunch or an evening at a coffee shop and just talk, talk, talk. Such profound things written here on this board beyond just meds.
Stick with us, Chicklet! We won't go.
Katy
Posted by Chicklet on September 27, 2003, at 11:35:22
In reply to Re: Barb-cat...or anyone who can help me decide, posted by fluffy on September 26, 2003, at 10:51:20
Katy-
This has to be one of the most amazingly complete and powerfully meaningful metaphors that I've ever read.
And I KNOW it. Too well. And I hate those damn pools...and it seems like they never run out of water, doesnt it?
You should write. Professionally.
Posted by Chicklet on September 27, 2003, at 11:43:45
In reply to Re: Katy/Fluffy- we MUST talk!! Lam/Tri/Hydroco! , posted by fluffy on September 27, 2003, at 11:31:02
But I'm wondering if a thread of Katia Katy and karen might be a little confoooosin! Maybe you guys should call me Bean or something.
I WAS on Vicodin...briefly. But it was nice. >
I wish we could get together too! I'm in CT. Seems like no one's a New Englander around here!Actually I'd like to exchange emails (if you don't want o, that's fine...)- I know if you saw what I wrote to Barbara but I really really want to stop using this site.
Damnit you guys sucked me back in!
Grr.
Kidding.
I'll write more before your appt.
Damn doc hasn't called back and I'm still awake after 6 hours of sleep in 3 nights. Not manic. but boy howdy IF I swung up EVER, i'd be in real danger right now. That's why my doc is VERY conscious of sleep patterns.
Now I just feel shaky as hell and my head feels stuffed with s'mores...
Hi Chicklet--
>
> Yes--let's keep in touch re: the Trileptal/Lamictal combo. Have you just started it? Or has it been working for you for some time? I see my doc this monday. I'm sure he'll approve my decision tree. He helped me greatly with information on the drugs out there. He is truly an angel when it comes to psychiatrists!
>
> Did I also see that you are taking Vicodin?? Hmmm. If so, I'm seriously not sure about that business. Did your psychiatrist prescribe that?
>
> But addiction is addiction, right? I think it's funny, b/c in a way, I'm "addicted" to Lamictal, in that I can't seem to sustain the AD effect unless I up the dose. Isn't that "addiction"?
>
> Anyway--I truly wish we could all just have lunch or an evening at a coffee shop and just talk, talk, talk. Such profound things written here on this board beyond just meds.
>
> Stick with us, Chicklet! We won't go.
>
> Katy
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 27, 2003, at 13:27:26
In reply to Arctic birds » BarbaraCat, posted by katia on September 27, 2003, at 3:09:20
Oh, Katia, I hear you loud and clear. The arctic birds are a wonderful and beautiful analogy. But first, let's talk meds so we can hopefully stay here in Psych Babble where I much prefer it. Yes, you will stabilize on Lamictal. It's a wonder drug, you'll come to see. It sounds like you're just now beginning to feel it's effects which, for me, has been a lightening of spirit, a step up to a higher frequency, a shooing away the dark heavy clouds. I can see how contracted and dense I was just two years ago. I felt like a barely human black hole. I even realized it at the time, but couldn't seem to break out of that murk. I was so traumatized and my brain wasn't able to connect or make sense of it. I was also very sick with fibromyalgia and didn't have the energy for anything, much less summoning a 'Never give up! Never surrender!' attitude (thank you, Galaxy Quest). Also, I was still feeling the effects of a long history of drinking wine to de-stress, even though I wasn't drinking anymore (I've since fallen on and off that wagon, as we know).
Lithium helped to stop the ongoing mixed states depressions but I was still feeling bad and sad and very discouraged. Lamictal parted the clouds so that I could see the sun again and want to find a way to keep it shining. I climbed out on my own willpower and for that I'm very proud of myself. But without Lamictal, I wonder how it would've gone because I was quickly losing the will to live. I had been on so many meds for so long and was on my last ditch effort. Oh, I probably would have rallied one way or the other, only to sink again. It was just getting too hard and despite my best eforts I couldn't sustain my health or peace of mind. I think this sums it up the best for me: Lamictal gave me a boost up and the support to maintain that lightness of spirit within which is necessary to hear it's guidance. Lam opened up the gates to a renewed will to survive that keeps me choosing the path of Life, whatever it takes, no matter how many times I stray off it. Lam has the least side effects of any med I've been on (as long as you go tortuously slow on the ramp up). You'll even out to your best level even if that dose goes up and down based on your chemistry's needs. You'll know when you need more or less and so will your friends. New dosage effects act quickly, at least for me, once you reach a therapeutic level and the s/e aren't so jangly as with lower levels. But it seems to stay put for the most part. Unfortunately, it doesn't do all this on it's own and I need Lithium to make it work, but so be it and thank you modern chemistry.
I hate to admit this, but you know and I know that alcohol abuse clouds us and locks in that denseness, a sickness of spirit and a sense of weakness and shame the next day, which is really hindering our Good Fight. No amount of meds can overcome that sludgy energy and we're prey to the hungers of the lower brain and group-hive trance consciousness. No matter how I love the feeling at the time, I pay and pay for it, especially as I get older. I've been able to maintain very moderate drinking. I give myself 3 nights a week to drink no more than 1 drink (and no 16oz. glasses either like before). It was hard at first but now it's pretty easy cause I really appreciate the good feeling that's growing. I hope we continue to support each other in this.
Tribal bellydance is generally based on women's folkloric desert dances of the Berber and other nomadic tribes of upper Africa - Morocco, Tunisia, some Egypt. The dancers usually wear turban-like head coverings, lots of tribal heavy silver jewellry and nomadic coin belts, tatoos and even though it's very sensuous and sinuous dancing, there's absolutely no hint of cabaret. These women would deck you if you tried to stuff bills into their hip scarves. It's always done in an ensemble and rarely as a solo performer. The ensemble is an integral part of the choreograph. Tribal fusion on the other hand blends all this with more, I guess you'd say fantasy, a softer approach which also uses some jazz and some cabaret, and the look is a more a feminine tribal style but never cabaret. The two factions have somewhat a major conflict of interest. I'm so glad you're pursuing this. Now that I'm feeling out of the woods with the fibro I'm really getting into it again and am soon going to start teaching. But I really have to be ready so I don't start and then can't finish, as has been my pattern.
So, back to the arctic birds and to continue with this fascinating topic you introduced. What is this will to survive? Why do some people have it and others don't - you can sense this even in young children. What is so enticing about this existence that we fight for it even when we hate it?
My husband and I had a long talk about all this just this morning. It seems to have to do with courage somehow and the wonderment and memory of the Light as it's juxtaposed against the Dark of our anguish. It takes a certain courage and kick-ass grit to trust in and follow that sliver of Light and we need to doggedly find and remember our bravery. We need to forget those times we reacted from fear and discouragement and weakness, wipe those memories clean like deleting bad files from a computer, and remember those times when we acted with courage and determination and even outrage. We all have those times no matter how insignificant they may seem.
What is it about the life force that keeps us fighting for it? What does it take to extinguish it to the point where a person chooses to stop fighting? At what point does it become not worth it? It seems to have to do with becoming depleted, running out of energy, no fight left, go away and let me sleep. However, we see people all the time in our lives who really don't have it all that bad, aren't the walking wounded. And yet, they're the walking dead with little conscience, little respect for life, energy vampires. Did they ever have that spark? Is it some karmic thing we're all working through at different times in our lives?
For as long as I can remember I've always had a fierce will. I've sometimes used it against myself but I've also used it to survive against some powerful odds. I think a person is born with a strong will, it shows up very early, and it might be easier to access that courage and grit. It might be easier for us with very difficult lives who intimately know the darkness. We long for and recognize the light when we finally see it, and can summon up the survival instinct that you mentioned. But anyone can choose small steps of courage and learn to become courageous. I think it's about practice and willingness - even if it's just willing to be willing. And we all need to be all that in these difficult times. I agree that it's so encouraging that more and more people are questioning and seeking deeper answers. It seems to take adversity to wake people up. It also takes tremendous energy to sustain it. Without energy it's impossible. So, choosing to do whatever it takes to keep our energy level high is a crucial part. But oh, don't we love those substances that leave us feeling like shit for the next few days!
I can see all this so clearly when I'm feeling better, you know? That's why I think it's so important to find and stay on the meds that work for us because they really do let the sun shine in. Love ya, Kitty Katia. - BarbaraCat
I remember now.
>
> What you wrote in the previous post to Katy:
>
> >>You know, we're all dealing with alot of stuff and we all have some days worse than others and moan more sometimes, but jeez, you've at least got to try! Here among my friends on this board, we've all been through hell, but we're at least trying the best we can to do the work, get help, pay for the office visits and meds, come up for air time and time again. Even though we have real bad times of paralysis and rage and stupidity, and even though we sometimes just want to roll over and give up - we don't, and it's damned hard work but we keep on fighting for our lives - and that's what I love about us.
>
> here here to that.
>
> I was in conversation with a friend a day or two ago. She doesn't suffer from depression and was coming to these "revelations" (for a non-depressed person). she was saying stuff like "we didn't choose to come into this world, but yet we find ourselves here and have to deal with it and suffer and whatever....."
> (an aside here) it's always interesting to see people who don't live constantly in a state of despair and existential angst finally start to question these things in a normal frame of mind.
>
> But the conversation continued on, it is trully amazing what we will do to survive. And for what? What drives us to survive? In existential terms, we're born, we suffer, we die. get used to it.
> But what keeps us from committing suicide upon our birth?
> What keeps us from it in the midst of (as we on this board know too well) severe depression? What is behind the notion of hope?
>
> I think it's something stronger than we can cognitively imagine. It's life force.
> There are birds from the Arctic that fly all the way to the Southern hemisphere and endure the most wretched suffering anguished lives simply to find a moment's worth of food to subsist just long enough to do it again. What drives them to endure? When they could just roll over and give up to the angel's above?
> What force drives us? It's beyond cognition. it's somehow instinct.
> It's beautiful. It's life living and surviving in one way or another.
> one arctic bird here signing off.
> Katia
Posted by fluffy on September 27, 2003, at 13:38:33
In reply to Re: Barb-cat...or anyone who can help me decide » fluffy, posted by BarbaraCat on September 27, 2003, at 0:36:28
Hi Barb-cat, (Katia, Chicklet, and all)
(don't have time for more posts to all of you!)> Well, I'm feeling better today. It's like the weather - wait and it'll change. Saw Pirates of the Caribbean and it was great. Talk about two different guys - Jack Sparrow and Will Turner. But I'm in love with them both! Guess that's why they call me bipolar.
***God I know, Barb-cat!! I've been feeling really good the past couple of days...maybe "too good"--GASP! (do you sense my sarcasm?--I hate that clinical language!). I think I talked my boyfriend's ear off last night...but boy did we have a great time. We went to a puppet theatre here in Houston--WOW!! It was fantastic.
>
> I like your decision tree idea. So, you've decided to go on tri for sure? You will be our official test pilot. I'm going to stay on lithium and ask for time release. I feel better today and hence feel better about my drugs, but I will be increasing lam slowly up to around 200mg.***I think that's pretty sound, Barbara. The addition of another drug can open up pandora's box, so you have to be really ready and/or disfunctional to do it. Maybe you just need some fine tuning. Pretty sure I'm going to go the Trileptal route unless my doc convinces me to try Depakote instead. (I go back and forth between the two options)
***And yeah--exercise really, really helps my "down" part. So does making sure I'm out with an understanding friend doing something distracting. As long as you're not totally stuck in a major depression. Then EVERYONE is an irritation...all those HAPPY people. I used to want to squash them all and cast spells on them so they'd be as miserable as me. And sometimes, just plain cable TV will do, or staring into space on my couch.
>
> You know, what you're describing about your bipolar starting only after taking SSRI's, if that's what I read correctly, sounds like Bipolar-III or BP-IV. I'm not too familiar with the treatment details since I'm most definitely BP-I,II (or am I?) but I recall that the treatment is somewhat different. So perhaps that's why lithium didn't work for you since it's more a BP-1,II thing. Of course, with all the esoteric stuff we're all taking and all disorders overlapping into the other, who knows what anymore. Don't remember if I asked this, but have you tried mongo doses of fish oil, as in liquid? I do think it's helping me. Makes the cell membranes more fluid.
>
***yeah--it's possible that i'm further down on the "spectrum". But at this point, I don't really care that much about the diagnosis. They don't even know how to treat BPII that well, so Jeez--I hate to know how the clinical trials are going with the other numbers. But I do feel I fit the BPII diagnosis fairly well.***I just started taking 1g of fish oil every day, and now I've gone to 2g. If anything, my nails are beautiful! Like an Asian princess. I think from what I've heard, it take awhile for anyone to feel a difference, and it is subtle. But it's a great beauty secret, eh?
> My vacation was so-so. My husband had hernia surgery and it was too soon, so we came back early. Then we went to a wonderful place on the ocean which was great until another couple joined us. My husband and the guy are friends, but I've always had a problem with the woman. A whiny victim/martyr bitch who complains about everything, is clearly mood challenged and refuses to get help, choosing to blame everyone else constantly, as in all the friggin' time.***Oh--DO I know about this! I think EVERYONE has this problem friend in their life. My therapist and I talk about this a lot b/c sometimes I feel guilty and ashamed that my insecurity and pride takes on such a rhythmic quality (spurred from the inside, rather than other "normal" people, who blame external circumstances for their moods.) Maybe your friend just needs to see a shrink to get herself in check.
> You know, we're all dealing with alot of stuff and we all have some days worse than others and moan more sometimes, but jeez, you've at least got to try! Here among my friends on this board, we've all been through hell, but we're at least trying the best we can to do the work, get help, pay for the office visits and meds, come up for air time and time again. Even though we have real bad times of paralysis and rage and stupidity, and even though we sometimes just want to roll over and give up - we don't, and it's damned hard work but we keep on fighting for our lives - and that's what I love about us. It's that 'I don't need help - it's all their fault so why should I do anything' whining victim crap that makes me see red. People who aren't willing to do the work and yet think it's OK to use everyone around them as trash recepticles - cowards! Hrmmph! I better stop now and think about something nice before I start acting as detestible. In fact, the swing I just experienced from the beginning of this post to now makes me wonder if I have cyclothymia!
***You and Katia put it all so poetically, I don't even need to say more. I understand completely.
>
> So, how was your show? Haven't heard about the outcome of it. You were feeling a little rocky beforehand. Did you manage to maintain your equanimity? There, I feel better.***The show went OK. I made it through, but I didn't really have my mind alongside. I didn't sell the piece, but it was more of a social event than a show opening. Lots of collectors saw the work, though. I drank the place dry, since i was so thirsty from the Lithium!!
hugs,
Katy
>
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 27, 2003, at 14:01:30
In reply to It's actually Karen... » fluffy, posted by Chicklet on September 27, 2003, at 11:43:45
Hi Karen,
You know, we're actually pretty great here at Psycho-Bab, so maybe you'd like to hang out a little longer? I rarely ever go to the other sites unles I'm forced to via redirect. But it's difficult to mix in our insights along with the goal of pure med talk because of the redirects even tho' the insights are a valuable part of what we're learning from the meds. Oh well, we do it anyway.I know we'd like to keep you in our circle cause you're really a hoot and a great resource. But I can understand wanting to take it to a more personal level. So, what is your email address again? I'd search back for it, but I think we'd all appreciate getting it again. Or is it just me that's a basket case (here we go again with the baskets) with finding things?
About your kitty. I don't have experience with a diabetic kitty but it sounds like the little critter needs love and care and has landed in your lap for a very good reason. You've probably bonded with each other by now, or soon will, so it will be a labor of love and a very tender and sweet opportunity to sustain the life of a little creature, no matter how long that may be. Your other cats may get jealous and protest for a few weeks, but they learn to accept and protect. A kind of maternal instinct emerges in both female and male kitties and everyone softens. Those kinds of things open and heal our hurting hearts a little bit more.
About shots, if that's what you're expected to do - I have to give myself shots of human growth hormone every day for my fibro condition and it's no problem whatsoever and I'm grateful for it. I've given my animals shots in the past and have volunteered at feral cat clinics and given plenty of shots. It's pretty easy, you have the shot ready, capture the critter (the hardest part), lift up the scruff while you're nuzzling and whoozhy whoozhy-ing and then pop the needle in, squirt, and you're done. They usually don't even notice it. I guess you could call it a different sort of 'quality time'.
There's some research being done on the properties of cinnamon which is showing alot of promise in diabetes. Do a Google search. Also check out Dr. Jonathan Wright's website. I don't know the URL at the moment, but if you search on 'Jonathan Wright'+cinnamon you might find something worthwhile. He's pretty alternative but on the cutting edge in a lot of things. Don't know how it would go with cats but you never know. You can always go real slow and maybe win the Animal Nobel Prize for Alternative Medicine. Good luck with the little sweetheart. We fed one of our little guys with a syringe of mashed up food for two months when he was sick and it's turned into a very special bonding.
BTW, I too have enjoyed the spirit of Vicodin and other opiods. There's some stuff on this site about using low doses of Naltrexone which is usually an antidote to morphine but in very small doses prevents tolerance and addiction and lets one have the benefits instead. So how about that email and the occasional visit to your Buds here? - Barbara
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 27, 2003, at 15:39:55
In reply to Re: Barb-cat...or anyone who can help me decide, posted by fluffy on September 27, 2003, at 13:38:33
Asian princess! Love it! Wait til you get up to 6-7 G. Your hair and skin will start to shine more and it doesn't aggravate oily skin or acne at all. Balances things out and the mood improves.
Well, so good that you're feeling better! It's just such a surprise from day to day, isn't it? I'm slowly increasing Lam and feeling pretty darn good again. Maybe more Lam will be enough for you and you won't have to decide between Dep and Tri. It must a hard decision. I wonder if Tri has the same pork-o-genic factor? That would sure be a deciding point for me. Fat makes me depressed and depression makes me lazy. Catcha later... Barbara
Posted by katia on September 27, 2003, at 18:45:04
In reply to Re: Barb-cat...or anyone who can help me decide » fluffy, posted by BarbaraCat on September 27, 2003, at 15:39:55
Hey Gals,
I'm in love with Lamictal too. I''m really better. I have to say that I'm impatient as hell tho' and detest driving. Everyone is soooo slow! So I think some of this euphoric/inspiration turns rapidly to raciness/irritation and back again. It's ok tho'. No murders have been committed. It's the med adjusting.I just got back from an intro to Animal Communication. VEry heart wrenching. Got in touch with a doggie of mine that had to go down due to medical problems. Found out that it was the right decision to let him go.
Glad to hear we're all doing better! yay!!!
Katia
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 27, 2003, at 20:32:54
In reply to Re: Barb-cat...or anyone who can help me decide, posted by katia on September 27, 2003, at 18:45:04
Triple Yay to us!! Keep remembering that it's a 3 steps forward, 1 step back dance, so when it starts to let down a little, don't get discouraged.
Sorry about your pooch, Katia. It's so heartbreaking to lose an animal friend, almost more so than the human kind. We treat our animals better than we do our humans as far as helping the process of moving on with dignity and ease of suffering.
I went to a number of animal psychics/communicators when a beloved cat was missing. It was very interesting and most pinpointed the area where he was eventually found (but had already made the journey across the Rainbow Bridge). Are you thinking of being trained in this, or was it more as a reading?
I also get flashes of anger but for the most part it's justified, so I can't really blame Lam. I think maybe it's because it's 'freeing me to be me'.
Have you ever tried Neurontin for this? I think I remember you or Katy had some. I'm finding that it mellows me out nicely, and increases the effect of benzos when I need to take them. Keep on happily ascending. - BCat
> Hey Gals,
> I'm in love with Lamictal too. I''m really better. I have to say that I'm impatient as hell tho' and detest driving. Everyone is soooo slow! So I think some of this euphoric/inspiration turns rapidly to raciness/irritation and back again. It's ok tho'. No murders have been committed. It's the med adjusting.
>
> I just got back from an intro to Animal Communication. VEry heart wrenching. Got in touch with a doggie of mine that had to go down due to medical problems. Found out that it was the right decision to let him go.
>
> Glad to hear we're all doing better! yay!!!
> Katia
>
Posted by katia on September 28, 2003, at 3:45:22
In reply to Re: Barb-cat...or anyone who can help me decide » katia, posted by BarbaraCat on September 27, 2003, at 20:32:54
Hi,
I do have some Neurontin. Maybe I shall try some on those nights with agitation and so forth.I feel quite ok. I feel tired when I should and good and energetic when I should.
I hope hope hope it keeps up.I'm thinking of being trained in this. I already have been tuned into it. just want to now hone in on and fine tune my hearing. It's actually quite easy if we let it be easy.
My doggie died four years ago so some time has passed. Thanks anyway for the words of condolences.nighty night.
Katia
Posted by Dalilah on September 28, 2003, at 12:55:57
In reply to Re: Barb-cat...or anyone who can help me decide, posted by fluffy on September 27, 2003, at 13:38:33
Hey Fluffy,
How much Lamictal are you up to? And how often do you go up? This frightens me. I don't want to have to keep going up and up. I felt this way with Effexor before, until I topped out at the maximum does and eventually went to the psyche ward for depression.
Dalilah
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 28, 2003, at 13:28:10
In reply to Hey Fluffy, posted by Dalilah on September 28, 2003, at 12:55:57
Hi Dahlila,
BarbaraCat here. Are you taking Lam right now? I know you were going through alot of uncertainty around meds. Are you feeling OK, better at least? I was going to give Fluff and Katia this bit of advice as well and hope they get the thread.You're probably shooting for some target with Lam based on a 'therapeutic dose' which is somewhere between 200-250mg for the majority of folks. I read here quite frequently that the real magical effect kicks in at that level and there's rarely an increase thereafter.
It's been almost 2 years for me and I'm still at 135mg and feel fine (along with the very necessary 600mg lithium). I'll probably aim for that 'magic' 200mg of Lam just to see what all the excitement is about, but I'll gradually titrate up and carefully monitor how I'm feeling.
I felt great for a few months at 25mg and for almost a year at 50mg. That was my therapeutic level for that point in time and anything more felt jittery and not even necessary. I'd encourage anyone to stay at the level they feel good at and not increase until they start feeling like they need it. You don't need to push it even though someone recommends you reach that therapeutic dose no matter what.
You know, Dahlila, here we all are, taking meds because it's the only way we know how to keep the black beast away. You might as well do it right and take the dose that works for you. Just going part way because of concerns about tolerance, escalating doses, etc., is like being in Limbo. The worry and anxiety is very stressful to your body and probably causing more stress and grief than just going for it with the meds.
Once you're at a point where you're feeling better, you get clearer and can make better judgements about where you want to go with it. You have the motivation to start exercising, the clarity to follow a healthy lifestyle, and all these things help to support a healthier biochemistry.
Once you get all systems working well and supporting each other then you can decide if you want to decrease, go higher still, whatever. But I'd strongly suggest that if you're in a weakened state emotionally and/or physically, don't decrease anything that seems likely to help. Decreasing a med and leaving yourself deficient is destabilizing and depleting. Go for the gold, get strong and healthy, and then you may find you can do with much less. - Barbara
> Hey Fluffy,
> How much Lamictal are you up to? And how often do you go up? This frightens me. I don't want to have to keep going up and up. I felt this way with Effexor before, until I topped out at the maximum does and eventually went to the psyche ward for depression.
> Dalilah
Posted by katia on September 28, 2003, at 13:44:09
In reply to Re: Hey Fluffy » Dalilah, posted by BarbaraCat on September 28, 2003, at 13:28:10
Good advice Barb - I will heed it.
Katia
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