![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 46. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by john Henry on July 28, 2003, at 6:06:13
-In no way do I condone the methods have used.
Hello,
I want to make a case for testosterone in combating depression,panic and dp/dr symptoms.My age:30
Diagnosis:panic disorder/depression/social phobia
Meds:
Zoloft
klonopin
remeron
Steroids most recently used:
600 mgs weekly test cypionate
500 mgs weekly deca-durabolin
50 mgs daily ProvironMy story:
After having panic and depression I was told to exercise as a way of relieving panic symptoms.So I joined a gym,one thing lead to another and was forced with the decision to try anabolic steroids.
after doing a lot of research I decided to try it out.My libido was so horrible from the Zoloft I was willing to try anything.The effects:It took about 3 weeks to build up in my system and the change in me was remarkable.I was more loving to my wife,I was building muscle,my sex drive was out of control,I had major feelings of well being,vigor and felt alive again.I had no depression or anxiety or panic attacks or derealization while on.It is a miracle drug in my opinion.It also made me feel assertive w/social phobia.Provirion is unbelieveable in fighting ssri-induced sexual dysfunction.I cant believe it is not available in the US.I have done 3 cycles and plan to do more in the future.I will take moderate doses and monitor my system through blood work.I cant describe the difference in myself while I am on testosterone and now when I am on an ssri's and other meds.I go from an energetic,alive,happy,sex crazed lol individual to an unfeeling,sexless zombie on regular psych meds.
Anyone who has ran the mill of pysch meds know about side effects.
Here are some of the sides of steriod usage:
Side effects-The only side effects I had was minor acne and testicular shrinkage that is reversible.I think the case against steroids is doctured in many ways.They say they are very dangerous but have yet found major scientifical data where there were deaths related to steroid useage.The whole roid rage thing is taking way out of context.How many stories daily do you hear of roid rage in the news? How many bodybuilders do you hear about commiting crimes? Any death you hear where a person was on steroids,there is always a ton of other druigs in the person.I cant find and conclusive data saying steroids are as bad as claimed to be. If you look at data men with lower test levels are the ones who are more agressive.For me honestly it made me want to cuddle with my wife more,kiss her and just be next to her.I cant believe steroids are a schedule 3 drug while benzo's are a schedule 4.Steroids have no effect that would be an overdose or abused.It does not alter the mind like benzos.I think the political powers that be fight it an easy target because of the olympics and major sports.I think its time to forget all of that and research the effects on depression and other psychiatric disorders.The main worries of testosterone are raising in cholesterol levels(have to watch your diet),liver problems(can be combated w/not using orals),gynecomastia(can be combated by using anti-estrogens),acne,and sometimes hairloss w/stronger androgens(can be combated by using finastride) and weight gain(mine was mostly muscle)
Now when you look at psychiatric drugs sides:
Apathy,insomnia,weight gain,agitation,agranuloctosis,akathisia,acne,anxiety,blood pressures highered or lowered,blurry vision,constipation,dizziness,dystonia,emotional blunting,fatigue,hair loss,headaches,heart rate raising or lowering,nausea,palpitations,sedationseizures,serotonin syndrome,nms,tardive dyskinesia,tremor and a whole other mess of sides.There have been deaths w/desipramine,neurontin,depakote and others I cant remember.
I think the case against steriods is all media hype,rumors and not enough scienitfical studies and it's a shame when more testing should be done to find out about its benefits.
If there are any questions anyone has feel free to ask.......
Posted by ross co on July 28, 2003, at 8:08:47
In reply to My case for Testostorone(long)...., posted by john Henry on July 28, 2003, at 6:06:13
yes in my hayday im 36 now i wasa big roid user and an NPC bodybuilder. i agree with u on one level. everyone who is depressed should have their testosterone level checked. because it can fall low and cause all major symtoms of depression.
but you are on a heavy ass dose of roids. you have not ranc into anything yet but good luck because it is when you have to come off that you will suffer extreme depression. i hope that does not happen to you but your playing with fire.
now i just do cardio and try and keep it healthy.
lower the dosages, go
2 sustonon a week
1 amp of deca 200mgs
and maybe some light anavar or winstrol
good luck
ross
Posted by stjames on July 28, 2003, at 11:47:31
In reply to My case for Testostorone(long)...., posted by john Henry on July 28, 2003, at 6:06:13
You are taking a great risk for cancer. Playing with ANY androgen with out testing and a doc to follow you is not how you get well with Androgens.
Posted by crazychickuk on July 28, 2003, at 15:00:29
In reply to Re: My case for Testostorone(long)...., posted by stjames on July 28, 2003, at 11:47:31
Wel i am a female and i have a high case of test, i used to take steriods at one time as i used to be a body builder now look at me? i am now taken remeron.
Posted by john Henry on July 28, 2003, at 17:03:55
In reply to Re: My case for Testostorone(long)...., posted by stjames on July 28, 2003, at 11:47:31
> You are taking a great risk for cancer. Playing with ANY androgen with out testing and a doc to follow you is not how you get well with Androgens.
>>>>Please find any scientific data that steroids cause cancer for sure.not speculations but real world data.
Posted by john Henry on July 28, 2003, at 17:22:28
In reply to Re: My case for Testostorone(long)...., posted by ross co on July 28, 2003, at 8:08:47
> yes in my hayday im 36 now i wasa big roid user and an NPC bodybuilder. i agree with u on one level. everyone who is depressed should have their testosterone level checked. because it can fall low and cause all major symtoms of depression.
> but you are on a heavy ass dose of roids. you have not ranc into anything yet but good luck because it is when you have to come off that you will suffer extreme depression. i hope that does not happen to you but your playing with fire.
> now i just do cardio and try and keep it healthy.
> lower the dosages, go
> 2 sustonon a week
> 1 amp of deca 200mgs
> and maybe some light anavar or winstrol
> good luck
> ross>>>As for coming off,That is why its important to use clomid,hcg,nolvadex,proviron post cycle to get natural test levels back to normal.Do you remember how you felt on testosterone? Not too bad when compared to an ssri or most psychoactive drugs.Look at some of the posts on this board and see how horrible people feel on their medications.
People have to switch meds often or augment with tons of other drugs.Don't you think this is a problem?ssri's-apathy and no sex drive
tca's-tons of sides just related to the heart
maoi's-cant eat anything or you'll get a heart atack
anti-psychotics- a zombie with no sex drive and weight gain
benzo's-addiction is there,wheter people admit it or notLook how hard it is just for people to get off a drug to switch to a new one.Serotonin withdrawl is real.
All other drugs cause tons of side effects.
Most of these drugs are new,who knows what kind of effects they will have in the future.
Posted by stjames on July 28, 2003, at 18:11:19
In reply to Re: My case for Testostorone(long)...., posted by john Henry on July 28, 2003, at 17:03:55
> >>>>Please find any scientific data that steroids cause cancer for sure.not speculations but real world data.
Androgens cause cancer if not taken for real need. If this is new info to you, do some study.
The fact that Androgens cause cancer is well established. I am not a reference librarian.
Posted by Psychquackery on July 28, 2003, at 21:21:08
In reply to My case for Testostorone(long)...., posted by john Henry on July 28, 2003, at 6:06:13
> -In no way do I condone the methods have used.
>
> Hello,
> I want to make a case for testosterone in combating depression,panic and dp/dr symptoms.
>
> My age:30
> Diagnosis:panic disorder/depression/social phobia
> Meds:
> Zoloft
> klonopin
> remeron
>
>
> Steroids most recently used:
> 600 mgs weekly test cypionate
> 500 mgs weekly deca-durabolin
> 50 mgs daily Proviron
>
> My story:
> After having panic and depression I was told to exercise as a way of relieving panic symptoms.So I joined a gym,one thing lead to another and was forced with the decision to try anabolic steroids.
> after doing a lot of research I decided to try it out.My libido was so horrible from the Zoloft I was willing to try anything.
>
Did someone at this gym force you to take steroids? Im a little confused about how you worded your sentence here.Anabolic steroids (testosterone) can be useful in some cases of severe refractory depression, particularly in men over thirty. However, before one takes it one should do several things. First you should have gone to a medical doctor and point blank explained your situation and requested testosterone testing to be done. If it comes back below normal, you have the green light to go thru with testosterone supplementation. And it does have prominent antidepressant effects, working when other drugs dont work.
But if the tests dont come back abnormal, I wouldnt touch anabolic steroids with a ten foot pole. Its too dangerous. And without a legal prescription from a Medical Doctor its also highly illegal and you are risking a jail sentence taking that stuff illegally on your own.
There is a good deal of research with testosterone for men with severe refractory depression at Columbia University psychiatry in NYC. I think the name of the researcher is someone named Seidman or something along that line. They run clinical trials for men with refractory depression where they give you testosterone gel. Its all legal and well supervised and safe...thus worth a shot if youre over thirty and severely depressed and nothings working.
I had my testosterone checked about six months ago and it came back in the normal range, but very "low normal." It certainly wasnt high or even medium. I have a very very low sex drive and have refractory depression. Im 34 years old. Maybe by the time I hit 40, my T levels will be low enough where I can legally take testosterone under a doctor's care and that will whip my depression in the butt.
Its weird though, cause although my testosterone levels came back in the low normal range, Ive always gained muscle extremely easily and am quite strong naturally. I was a bit perplexed about that.
One OTC supplement thats LEGAL that you can try is something called Tribulis. Bodybuilders claim it helps increase testosterone naturally, although thats mostly marketing hype. However it does cause feelings of well being and users frequently report increased sex drive and better erections. You can get the stuff legally at any GNC store or health food store.
Igor
Posted by ross co on July 28, 2003, at 21:37:12
In reply to Re: My case for Testostorone(long)...., posted by Psychquackery on July 28, 2003, at 21:21:08
let him do what he wants. he's in denial just like i used to be. and i am perfectly happy taking my meds. and i take nardil and i eat anything i want. spend your money on that black market stuff. because one day you will have to come off and you will see how bad it really is.
good luck though sticking a needle in your ass to be big
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 28, 2003, at 22:11:43
In reply to Re: My case for Testostorone(long)...., posted by Psychquackery on July 28, 2003, at 21:21:08
> > I joined a gym,one thing lead to another and was forced with the decision to try anabolic steroids.
>
> Did someone at this gym force you to take steroids? Im a little confused about how you worded your sentence here.Maybe he meant "faced" rather than "forced"?
Bob
Posted by john Henry on July 28, 2003, at 23:33:25
In reply to Re: My case for Testostorone(long)...., posted by stjames on July 28, 2003, at 18:11:19
> > >>>>Please find any scientific data that steroids cause cancer for sure.not speculations but real world data.
>
>
> Androgens cause cancer if not taken for real need. If this is new info to you, do some study.
> The fact that Androgens cause cancer is well established. I am not a reference librarian.
>There are steroids with androgen to anabolic ratios.Not all are sttraight androgenic.Where are all the bodybuilders with cancer? What about all the other steroid using athletes? Wheres all the cancer? You say it does now prove it.
Posted by john Henry on July 28, 2003, at 23:49:35
In reply to Re: My case for Testostorone(long)...., posted by ross co on July 28, 2003, at 21:37:12
> let him do what he wants. he's in denial just like i used to be. and i am perfectly happy taking my meds. and i take nardil and i eat anything i want. spend your money on that black market stuff. because one day you will have to come off and you will see how bad it really is.
> good luck though sticking a needle in your ass to be bigHow am I in denial.Are there not tons of men getting testosterone replacement therapy? Doctors now are starting to realize how important this hormone is and the way it interacts with certain neurotransmitters to increase mood and solve depression.Even in the 30's and 40's doctors were open to testosterone therapy.It wasnt until athletes started using them and got into the media and all the hype began.If it's so bad....where are all the deaths in the news by steroids.Why isnt the average college steroid using athletes droping like flies? Why is Oxadrin prescribed to aids patients if its so harmful?
Posted by john Henry on July 29, 2003, at 0:28:36
In reply to Re: My case for Testostorone(long)...., posted by john Henry on July 28, 2003, at 23:49:35
http://www.mhsanctuary.com/rx/testos.htmhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=9543205&dopt=Abstract
http://www.duj.com/Article/Hellstrom2/Hellstrom2.htmlhttp://www.andriol.com/home.asp
http://my.webmd.com/content/article/57/66195.htm?lastselectedguid={5FE84E90-BC77-4056-A91C-9531713CA348}
http://www.drmirkin.com/archive/7045.htmlhttp://www.drmirkin.com/men/1732.html
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/issues/2002-08-15/nelson.html/1/index.html
http://www.slimmeryou.org/older/abstract_testosterone.htm
http://www.mycremeltd.com/Info_Center/fsd.asp
Posted by TenMan on July 29, 2003, at 0:44:23
In reply to Re: My case for Testostorone(long)...., posted by stjames on July 28, 2003, at 18:11:19
> > >>>>Please find any scientific data that steroids cause cancer for sure.not speculations but real world data.
>
>
> Androgens cause cancer if not taken for real need. If this is new info to you, do some study.
> The fact that Androgens cause cancer is well established. I am not a reference librarian.
>You are wrong. If you do have these so called studies please enlighten us and the rest of the medical community because it would save a lot of lives. Otherwise please refrain from making incorrect blanket statements.
Posted by jay on July 29, 2003, at 2:37:34
In reply to Re: My case for Testostorone(long)...., posted by ross co on July 28, 2003, at 21:37:12
> let him do what he wants. he's in denial just like i used to be. and i am perfectly happy taking my meds. and i take nardil and i eat anything i want. spend your money on that black market stuff. because one day you will have to come off and you will see how bad it really is.
> good luck though sticking a needle in your ass to be big
Well, he is doing what he feels best and we don't have any right taking that away from him. No need to insult. If I had to take steroids or even something like heroin daily to keep my depression at bay, I likely would.Jay
Posted by john Henry on July 29, 2003, at 4:06:49
In reply to some links...., posted by john Henry on July 29, 2003, at 0:28:36
>
>
> http://www.mhsanctuary.com/rx/testos.htm
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=9543205&dopt=Abstract
> http://www.duj.com/Article/Hellstrom2/Hellstrom2.html
>
> http://www.andriol.com/home.asp
>
> http://my.webmd.com/content/article/57/66195.htm?lastselectedguid={5FE84E90-BC77-4056-A91C-9531713CA348}
>
> http://www.drmirkin.com/archive/7045.html
>
> http://www.drmirkin.com/men/1732.html
>
> http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/issues/2002-08-15/nelson.html/1/index.html
>
> http://www.slimmeryou.org/older/abstract_testosterone.htm
>
> http://www.mycremeltd.com/Info_Center/fsd.asp
>
>
Posted by don_bristol on July 29, 2003, at 9:39:04
In reply to My case for Testostorone(long)...., posted by john Henry on July 28, 2003, at 6:06:13
> Hello,
> I want to make a case for testosterone in combating
> depression,panic and dp/dr symptoms.
>
> My age:30
> Diagnosis:panic disorder/depression/social phobia
> Meds:
> Zoloft
> klonopin
> remeron
>
> Steroids most recently used:
> 600 mgs weekly test cypionate
> 500 mgs weekly deca-durabolin
> 50 mgs daily Proviron-- snip --
>
> If there are any questions anyone has feel free to ask.......
>John Henry, I am very interested in what you write. I am 47, live in the UK and I am not a body builder. In fact I am pleased enough with my musculature and do only light exercise. My sex drive is "middling" to low.
I have low normal testosterone and my mood is generally low (dysthymic). I started on testosterone specifically for MOOD. Not for muscles. Not for sex.
I saw an endocrinologist to try and get me sorted out. All the testosterone he has given me has been official. Testosterone definitely helped my mood. Only testosterone and an MAOI, Moclobemide, will help me out of my low mood and apathy. But I have a problem to keep taking testosterone.
I have a question for you. But first let me describe a bit for you and for anyone else who is interested what my testosterone background is.
My endocrinologist thinks there are two unusual factors at play in me. FIRSTLY I vary in testosterone levels more than average throughout the day. The highest levels are in the morning (I am low-normal at that time) and he suggests that by late afternoon I am lower than most men. SECONDLY I convert excess testosterone to estrogen very easily. So any supplementary testosterone turns into estrogen and we can blocking this conversion with Arimidex and/or Tamoxifen.
We also check for SHBG in case there is too much of it mopping up the testosterone but SHBG levels are normal.
The actual cause of my low testosterone is partly linked to the excess estrogen because the estrogen is causing my body to think I have enough testosterone and so my body does not call for more. In endocrinological terms my LH and FSH levels are low indicating that my body does not want more testosterone to be produced.
I have taken testosterone by patches (bad allergic reaction), by injection (Primoteston = testosterone enanthate) and by implant (probably still not available in the US). All delivery systems are "messy" and inconvenient. The best was probably the implant but it involves a deep deposit of material every six months and the sutures need time to heal.
I saw my endocrinologist a few weeks ago and was hoping that Arimidex (probably without the Tamoxifen) would be enough to prevent the natural levels of my testosterone converting to estrogen. i can probably get to about the 60th percentile of the normal reference range (i.i.e.. just a bit below average).
However he suggested we try either Nandrolone (Deca-Durobolin) or testosterone gel. I went for the gel because the Nandrolone involved injections and I find them a bit awkward - and the testosterone peaks and then drops too much with injections.
Here are my questions.
(1) Do you think the Nandrolone would have been a good option for me? My endocrinologist said it was a good form of testosterone because it didn't convert easily.
(2) Dose Nandrolone have any more medical problems with it than testosterone does?
(3) How frequently would one have to take Nandrolone?
Remember that I am only interested in mood improvement. I am not interested in bigger muscles. The extra sex drive would be nice but that is not my motive.
I would welcome any comments from you or anyone else who can advise. Please feel free to contact me via email if you prefer. My email link to this message works or use this: davidmaclean AT usa-net DOT fsnet DOT co DOT uk.
Thanks.
Posted by Psychquackery on July 29, 2003, at 13:54:52
In reply to My case for Testostorone(long)...., posted by john Henry on July 28, 2003, at 6:06:13
> -In no way do I condone the methods have used.
>
>
I would have done it differently than you did, I would have first gone to an MD and had my T levels formally tested. I would have done it on the up and up. However I dont really blame you for taking anabolic steroids for purposes of mood elevation. I think for any man with severe refractory depression who is 30 and over (especially 35 and over) and nothing else has worked and they have tested positive for low testosterone...testosterone can be a viable route out of severe depression.In addition to mood elevation and overall feelings of well being, testosterone supplementation can dramatically improve male sexuality. After a guy has been severely depressed for umpteen many years with no real sex drive, the sudden ability to get a massive erection like in my youth and engage in vigorous sex...is a welcome relief and is the "frosting on the cake" as far as depression relief goes.
I just would go about it differently than this guy did it. Id do it all legal, on the up and up working with Medical Doctors. Either endocrinologists or that rare breed known as a neuroendocrinologist (hard to find).
The side effects of testosterone supplementation for a man over 30 who has low to low normal T levels is negligible. The cancer thing is hysteria.
Before depression my erections were a good solid eight inches. After severe depression my ability to get and maintain a solid erection deteriorated. And with that my ability to maintain intimate relations with the opposite sex deteriorated. I bet with T supplementation, things would return to normal and Id have those big eight inchers again. <evil grin> hehehehe
Igor.
Posted by john Henry on July 30, 2003, at 6:05:24
In reply to Re: My Testostorone and some questions, posted by don_bristol on July 29, 2003, at 9:39:04
>
>>>>I would like to state I am no doctor and any advice I give should be taken as such.I do thing off the book and I am sort of a militant.
John Henry, I am very interested in what you write. I am 47, live in the UK and I am not a body builder. In fact I am pleased enough with my musculature and do only light exercise. My sex drive is "middling" to low.
I have low normal testosterone and my mood is generally low (dysthymic). I started on testosterone specifically for MOOD. Not for muscles. Not for sex.>>>>I started on Testosterone not for muscle building effects either but on research to get libido back from SSRI and it's mood enhancing abilities.I discovered at the same time it cured my anxiety/panic attacks.
I saw an endocrinologist to try and get me sorted out. All the testosterone he has given me has been official. Testosterone definitely helped my mood. Only testosterone and an MAOI, Moclobemide, will help me out of my low mood and apathy. But I have a problem to keep taking testosterone.>>>>I am using Ritalin now to treat SSRI apathy and low mood.I'm giving up on SSRI'S.
I have a question for you. But first let me describe a bit for you and for anyone else who is interested what my testosterone background is.
My endocrinologist thinks there are two unusual factors at play in me. FIRSTLY I vary in testosterone levels more than average throughout the day. The highest levels are in the morning (I am low-normal at that time) and he suggests that by late afternoon I am lower than most men. SECONDLY I convert excess testosterone to estrogen very easily. So any supplementary testosterone turns into estrogen and we can blocking this conversion with Arimidex and/or Tamoxifen.>>>>For people who don't know.Tamoxifen(nolvadex) is an anti-estrogen that binds to estrogen sites.It blocks estrogen at the receprtor site.
Arimidex is an Aromatase inhibitor which prevents testosterone from being converted into estrogen.
Generally arimidex is better than Nolvadex because it actually stops estrogen while Nolvadex only blocks at receptor site.Femara which is new was shown to be 10x more potent than arimidex in vitro.I will post a link of the study so you can check it out.Something to consider???
We also check for SHBG in case there is too much of it mopping up the testosterone but SHBG levels are normal.>>>>SHBG is Sex Hormone binding globulin.It is a carrier protein for androgens.In normal men it goes like this:
2% Testosterone is free(unbound to carrier proteins)
54% is bound to Albumin and other proteins
44% is bound to SHBG(synthesized by the liver)>>>Usually athletes like to get rid of SHBG to have more free tesosterone.
The actual cause of my low testosterone is partly linked to the excess estrogen because the estrogen is causing my body to think I have enough testosterone and so my body does not call for more.In endocrinological terms my LH and FSH levels are low indicating that my body does not want more testosterone to be produced.>>>>LH is luteining hormone which stimulates leydig's cells of the testicles to produce testosterone.FSH is follicle stimulating hormone which stimulates follicles and is also critical for sperm count.
I have taken testosterone by patches (bad allergic reaction), by injection (Primoteston = testosterone enanthate) and by implant (probably still not available in the US). All delivery systems are "messy" and inconvenient. The best was probably the implant but it involves a deep deposit of material every six months and the sutures need time to heal.
>>>>>I had no problems with injections whatsoever.
Have you tried Omnadren,Sustanon or Testex Elmu(test cypionate) I have heard good reports with these
I saw my endocrinologist a few weeks ago and was hoping that Arimidex (probably without the Tamoxifen) would be enough to prevent the natural levels of my testosterone converting to estrogen. i can probably get to about the 60th percentile of the normal reference range (i.i.e.. just a bit below average).>>>>Have you tried adding clomid(clomiphene citrate)? It is used at the end of a cycle to bring natural test levels back to normal.It is a synthetic estrogen that acts as a anti-estrogen.It binds to estrogen receptors and it will cause your LH and FSH to rise as a result it might bring your levels to normal.Have you tried HCG-Human chorionic gonadtropin-? This is used to trick your body into thinking it's getting LH.Also look into Femara.
However he suggested we try either Nandrolone (Deca-Durobolin) or testosterone gel. I went for the gel because the Nandrolone involved injections and I find them a bit awkward - and the testosterone peaks and then drops too much with injections.>>>>Here is my take on nandrolone....
It is a mild steroid that is a modified version of 19-nortestosterone.The Deca is a long chain ester which means it lasts in your body a long time to keep steady levels.It is the least androgenic steroid in nature of most steroids,often to the point it interferes with libido.It has high anabolic properties.Anabolic=increases protein synthesis in muscles.Androgenic=Maleness i.e.libido,aggresion,male pattern baldness. Most people use DEca for its muscle building properties.Although it does aromatize it does so at a slow rate.In fact its probably the least estrogenic of all steroids capable of aromatizing.One trait(downfall) is that is strongly supresses HPTA or hypothalamic pituitary testicular axis.HPTA is responsible for regulating the output of testosterone in your body.At the top of the axis is the hypothalamic region of your brain,which releases a hormone called gonadotrophin releasing hormone or GNRH.Gnrh stimulates the pituitary to release LH-luteining hormone and FSH.Both hormones but primarily LH stimulate the leydig's cells in the testicles to secrete Testosterone.The primary hormone involved in supressing the over secretion of test is Estradiol,which is the aromatized by product of Test.High Estrogen Levels serve as a signal to the hypothalamus to slow the release of GNRH and also desensitize the pituitary to this hormone that trickles down to the testes receiving less stimulation via LH.In additions,Androgens and Progestins can also cause supresion of LH and test output via the same target sites.Nandrolone can suppress endogenous(natural) test production through a different mechanism,one that exists outside the normal suppression of gonadotropic hormones.
There was a study in the Netherlands done on 11 males given Deca over 12 weeks.The total dosage was only 450 mgs.this was sufficent enough to suppress test production throughout the course of therapy.In fact,their test remained below pre-treated levels 3 months after the last injection after the study was concluded.So you can only guess how long ful HPTA recovery actually took.In this study Nandrolone Decanonate strongly supressed test production but no impact on serum LH.Supprresion was not caused at the top of the axis,with a lowering LH,as would have been expected.There is also one trait uncommon among steroids(only Trenbolone and Anadrol) in that it exhibits measurable progesterone activity.It converts to progesterone at doses above 400 mgs.This maybe why deca has it's effect on HPTA and libido.
Wow,Im rambling basically in basic terms use of Deca is usually used by athletes to promote muscle.It is usually stacked with a Testosterone ester to combat libido problems AKA Deca-dick.And since it suppresses HPTA your testicles will shrink really bad.One other reason athletes use this is because they notice a joint soothing effect.Deca stores water in connective tissues and blocks cortisone receptors,this in turn leaves a person with a temporary ease or even cure existing joint pain.It isnt very toxic at all.One interesting note...At UCLA they did a study on rats and found Deca alters brain chemistry leading to increased norepinephrine and serotonin levels.
Damn that was long winded lol!!!
Here are my questions.
(1) Do you think the Nandrolone would have been a good option for me? My endocrinologist said it was a good form of testosterone because it didn't convert easily.>>>>I dont think so since its highly Anabolic and shuts down HPTA and can convert to progesterone.
(2) Dose Nandrolone have any more medical problems with it than testosterone does?
It has hardly any side effects,its not liver toxic,and most users only complain of "bloating"
due to progesterone
(3) How frequently would one have to take Nandrolone?>>>> Since I am militant I dont know of clinical uses.Doses start at 200-600 mgs.a week.
Remember that I am only interested in mood improvement. I am not interested in bigger muscles. The extra sex drive would be nice but that is not my motive.
I would welcome any comments from you or anyone else who can advise. Please feel free to contact me via email if y
Posted by john Henry on July 30, 2003, at 6:09:26
In reply to Re: My Testostorone and some questions, posted by don_bristol on July 29, 2003, at 9:39:04
http://dominoext.novartis.com/NC/NCPRRE01.nsf/0/6ce93adcfcc89adec1256bc0001e60ae?OpenDocument
Posted by john Henry on July 30, 2003, at 6:20:27
In reply to forgot one...., posted by john Henry on July 29, 2003, at 4:06:49
These 3 show that even at higher doses there is hardly any change after test usage.
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/283/6/763
http://www.the-aps.org/press/archives/01/32.htm
> >
> >
> > http://www.mhsanctuary.com/rx/testos.htm
> >
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=9543205&dopt=Abstract
> > http://www.duj.com/Article/Hellstrom2/Hellstrom2.html
> >
>
> http://www.oxandrin.com
>
>
> > http://www.andriol.com/home.asp
> >
> > http://my.webmd.com/content/article/57/66195.htm?lastselectedguid={5FE84E90-BC77-4056-A91C-9531713CA348}
> >
> > http://www.drmirkin.com/archive/7045.html
> >
> > http://www.drmirkin.com/men/1732.html
> >
> > http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/issues/2002-08-15/nelson.html/1/index.html
> >
> > http://www.slimmeryou.org/older/abstract_testosterone.htm
> >
> > http://www.mycremeltd.com/Info_Center/fsd.asp
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by stjames on July 30, 2003, at 10:42:31
In reply to Re: testosterone equals bigger, stronger erections, posted by Psychquackery on July 29, 2003, at 13:54:52
The cancer thing is hysteria.
That is kinda a broad statement. All reproductive
cancers are related to endrogens, period.
Supplementation and testing to return levels to
normal is safe. Taking pills from the gym is not, as you have no idea what levels you are producing.
Bulking up vs. returning levels to normal have vastly different risks.
Posted by Psychquackery on July 30, 2003, at 13:54:11
In reply to Re: testosterone equals bigger, stronger erections, posted by stjames on July 30, 2003, at 10:42:31
> The cancer thing is hysteria.
>
> That is kinda a broad statement. All reproductive
> cancers are related to endrogens, period.
> Supplementation and testing to return levels to
> normal is safe. Taking pills from the gym is not, as you have no idea what levels you are producing.
> Bulking up vs. returning levels to normal have vastly different risks.StJames...when I said the cancer thing is hysteria I was assuming we were talking about taking T under the strict and monitored supervision of a Medical Doctor. For purposes of getting rid of refractory depression and returning to normal. Under these conditions (medically prescribed and monitored) testosterone is relatively safe and the benefits outweight the risks in many cases.
As far as taking roids illegally, buying them from some gym rat and taking them in levels where they are unsupervised, I totally agree with you. Its dangerous to do it like that and cancer is one of the dangers.
Only a MD can prescribe testosterone safely. This guy has found his "magic bullet" but IMO he should have done it legit style versus the illegal gym rat approach he has taken.
Igor
Posted by stjames on July 30, 2003, at 15:29:34
In reply to Re: testosterone equals bigger, stronger erections, posted by Psychquackery on July 30, 2003, at 13:54:11
This guy has found his "magic bullet"
Has he ? Give anyone large doses of some androgens and they feel great. Nothing is
proven by this, in the context of treating
depression, because it is a given that anyone
will feel pumped up on enough androgen.
Large doses of cortisone "cured" depression,
up until people went psychotic.I don't question there is a link to AD's and lowered testosterone. I am working this on this
issue at present. I question drawing a false conclusion between black market steriods and
a possible treatment for depression. How can one tell, as it is a given they will make anyone feel great ?
Posted by Psychquackery on July 30, 2003, at 16:42:16
In reply to Re: testosterone equals bigger, stronger erections, posted by stjames on July 30, 2003, at 15:29:34
> This guy has found his "magic bullet"
>
> Has he ? Give anyone large doses of some androgens and they feel great. Nothing is
> proven by this, in the context of treating
> depression, because it is a given that anyone
> will feel pumped up on enough androgen.
> Large doses of cortisone "cured" depression,
> up until people went psychotic.StJames, first a little lesson in the broad subject of steroids. Cortisone is in a specific class of steroids known as corticosteroids. Other corticosteroids include cortisol and prednisone. Prednisone is well known for inducing the nastiest of mood disorders in previously healthy individuals. In sufficient doses prednisone and other corticosteroids can cause psychosis or mania. Corticosteroids are known in the bodybuilding world as "catabolic" or muscle wasting...in short they tear you down when they fluctuate in excess in the body. Corticosteroids are nasty stuff as a general rule and have bad psychiatric side effects sometimes.
The type of steroid this guy is talking about is in a totally different class of steroids. Known as anabolic steroids. Anabolics include testosterone and others like dianabol, etc. and are known to do the exact opposite of the corticosteroids. While corticosteroids often cause severe mood disorders, anabolic steroids oftentimes create a feeling of "well being" along with increased sex drive.
Anabolic steroids, being in a totally different class of steroids as cortisol or cortisone, are being studied seriously for refractory depression in men.
>
> I don't question there is a link to AD's and lowered testosterone. I am working this on this
> issue at present. I question drawing a false conclusion between black market steriods and
> a possible treatment for depression. How can one tell, as it is a given they will make anyone feel great ?
>I agree, black market steroids are bad news. But the legal anabolics supervised by an MD can be truly lifesaving in some cases of male depression. You shouldnt generalize testosterone with cortisone or prednisone...its apples and oranges.
Igor
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.