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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 286 to 310 of 948. Go back in thread:
Posted by fluffy on July 27, 2003, at 11:31:06
In reply to Re: Depakote, posted by fluffy on July 26, 2003, at 16:33:15
To Katia--I totally understand the end of your rope feeling. The good news is: If the antidepressants didn't work on you, then chances are that the mood stabilizers WILL WORK. Unfortunately, psychiatry is still a crude science, involving lots of trial and error. You may hit the nail on the head with Depakote. It may work really well for you. Everyone is different. The other good news is: if Depakote does not work alone, you will probably know within at least a month. With SSRI's you'd have to wait a full 6-8 weeks. You may have to try another drug, and the process can be very daunting. But just know that there is a drug or combo of drugs that WILL WORK! It may take more time, and there may be disappointments.
I didn't believe that anything would work for me. I felt my brain was permanently flawed, and that I couldn't ever be "fixed". I'd been on Lexapro for 6 weeks--went manic, then zoloft+neurontin for another 6 weeks--felt spacey and mixed, then Tegretol--2 more months of low grade depression. And this was after 3 previous months of mixed states and major depression. You can be very sure that I felt that NOTHING would work. After finding a doctor that listened to me and was very informed about bipolar disorder, I found the right drug.
Be very pro-active with your doctor and trust yourself and how you are feeling. I wanted to feel better so badly (when I was in EXACTLY the same boat as you) that I often convinced myself that I was feeling better, and under-reported that I was still depressed. So I suffered through 2-3 months more of low grade depression. If you don't feel it's working, then TELL YOUR DOCTOR!! Be very assertive with him/her. Only you know how you are feeling.
And lastly--take time to care for yourself. Chances are you've been beating yourself up for awhile now. TAKE LOTS AND LOTS OF CARE!
Katy
Posted by fluffy on July 27, 2003, at 12:08:05
In reply to Re: Dancing queen and proud of it! » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on July 27, 2003, at 11:29:46
The latest is intense itching all over, inside and out. I feel like I have fleas (I don't). - Barbara
You know Barbara--I had that very same weird thing happen to me in college. I tried to explain it to someone, and they said "maybe you have scabies". But i didn't. It went away in a day or so. Is that what fybromalgia is?
Katy
Posted by katia on July 27, 2003, at 16:05:21
In reply to Re: Dancing queen and proud of it! » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on July 27, 2003, at 11:29:46
Hi Barbara,
Were you on Lithium only for awhile (and it needed an augment?) and then added the Lamictal? When you say that you thought you were Ok at 75mgs what made you realize you could be better?The fibro sounds painful. I too have felt at times of extreme despair and agnony there is no way my body is getting out of this unaffected. I"m just waiting for the bomb to drop for me. My body defin. has its aches and pains for no reason and normally correlated with stress levels; sometimes it really feels like I"m dying b/c my body hurts so badly. I've thought about fibro before as the reason. Who knows!? It could easily be just an over stressed body due to high strung emotions reacting in a "normal" way. What have your symptoms been?
I have asked my pdoc about the extended release version of Dep. as I've heard about that too. I'm waiting to hear back from him.
warmly,
Katia
> Hi Katia,
> If you haven't tried lamictal, give it a whirl. Even if you try something else, such as Depakote, I can't say enough for lam's energizing, calming antidepressant quality. It took me about a year to work up to 200mg, which seems the magic number for antidepressant action. I coasted along at 75mg thinking it was enough, but 200mg, even though jittery at first, has made a huge difference. I was literally dying before hitting upon lamictal/lithium combo. I like lithium, but Depakote is the undisputed second. NOW HEAR THIS. I just heard that Depakote has been released in a new extended version that doesn't cause the weight gain. Tell your doc this since it's very new news.
>
> Now, is fibro connected to bipolar - good question. It sure can cause mental unhingeing, whatever your predisposition is. No one knows what causes fibro since it's a group of symptoms rather than a single pathology, a system breakdown caused by physical, emotional or environmental stress, but no one knows for sure. The symptoms are the same but the underlying trigger is different from person to person.
>
> My personal belief, at least for me, is it's a disregulation of the HPA-axis caused by years of intense stress. There also may be a genetic component to it. My father seemed to have symptoms of fibro, widespread pain and fatigue. He was most likely bipolar as well (as was 1/2 his large family), alternating between severe depressions and violent rages. I had an extremely difficult childhood, very abusive (thankfully no overt sexual). Many object to the theory of it being stress induced, saying it's physical with the emotional coming later, but there's too much evidence that most fibro sufferers have had severe stressors in childhood. The stress hormones damage parts of the brain that regulate sleep, fear, thyroid, sex hormones - the gamut. Lack of deep stage IV sleep seems to be the main culprit. Having a bipolar condition doesn't help since it's so draining and stressful in it's own right, and who sleeps well during mania? But I don't know what causes what. It's interrelated, they exacerbate each other.
>
> I do know that at times of extreme stress in the past I thought 'No one can live through this and not be damaged. Something has to give.' In my case, it eventually did, and it's fibro. But, you know, it's been a blessing. It's forced me to remove myself from soul-sucking conditions and situations. It's a great stress barometer. At the cost of my life, I cannot give in to that habitual fearful despair. My life's quest now is not fame, fortune and excitement, but just living a simple harmonious existence. But jeeze, my bod can sure put me through alot of grief. The latest is intense itching all over, inside and out. I feel like I have fleas (I don't). - Barbara
Posted by katia on July 27, 2003, at 16:15:54
In reply to Re: Depakote, posted by fluffy on July 27, 2003, at 11:31:06
Hi Katy,
Thanks for your words of encourgement!
Yes, we do have a similar med history. So it took awhile for you to figure out you're bipolar too? The ssri's just flatten me out and deaden me, the SNRIs like Effexor and SErzone made me mixed and moody. high and low together and then high and low and the cycle continued! My moods felt even far more volatile than when on nothing, except when I'm in a major depression (which normally has mixed undertones).
I've been on nothing for about two weeks now and I've lost that slightly manic feeling (from Serzone) and now I'm feeling just mildly to mod low, some irritation. So I'm hoping that the mood stab. do the trick for me. I've got so much potential! I'm sick of wasting it and not being able to channel it!
Was Tegretol the first mood stab. (besides the neurontin) that you were on specifically for your BP? It sounds like it took away the up side and left you mildly low. That's what I'm afraid of. But what did it for you after that then? What are you on now? and is it working? Sorry if you've already described this in an earlier thread, it's just so hard to follow them all.
thanks!
Katia
Posted by fluffy on July 27, 2003, at 17:05:59
In reply to Re: Depakote » fluffy, posted by katia on July 27, 2003, at 16:15:54
Was Tegretol the first mood stab. (besides the neurontin) that you were on specifically for your BP? It sounds like it took away the up side and left you mildly low. That's what I'm afraid of. But what did it for you after that then? What are you on now? and is it working? Sorry if you've already described this in an earlier thread, it's just so hard to follow them all.
> thanks!That's ok Katia--this thread has turned into about 5 at once. Yes--Tegretol was the first mood stabilizer I was put on (after a *tiny* dose of Neurontin (100mg). I never got to a high enough dose of Tegretol to see if it would help my depression. I didn't trust my current psychiatrist who kept insisting that I was having major depression (DUHHH!) and kept loading me full of SSRI's. Even though I became fully manic/mixed, he insisted I was just depressed. I started to suspect that I might be bipolar. I had to beg and plead for a mood stabilizer trial. He started me off on Tegretol, but wouldn't believe me when I told him I was feeling depressed still. Needless to say, he was arrogant and very difficult to work with.
When I went to my new doc and told him I was on Tegretol, and I was still depressed, he promptly gave me two drugs to choose from: Lamictal or Lithium.
I think he did this for two reasons.
One--I was depressed, and the other mood stabilizers don't have a good antidepressant profile. Many people report a "flat" feeling. I'm not sure if I was still depressed or if the Tegretol was the culprit.
Two--I am currently going to a mood disorder clinic, and they sometimes hire their patients to be guinea pigs for science, testing new and old drugs and supplements. At the time, they were enrolling people with BPII, currently depressed to ramdomly try Lithium or Lamictal to determine which drug worked best. I fit that profile to a tee. I got the Lamictal. Free appointments, free Lamictal. It has worked really well for me so far. If I have breakthrough stuff, I'll probably try augmenting with Li. But for the time being, I've found what I feel is going to be the main work horse of my coctail.
Have you tried doing a search on this site about Depakote and its efficacy on depression?
best,
Katy
Posted by fluffy on July 27, 2003, at 17:30:34
In reply to Re: Depakote, posted by fluffy on July 27, 2003, at 17:05:59
Posted by fluffy on July 27, 2003, at 17:41:42
In reply to Katia--helpful article re: Lamictal, Li, Depakote, posted by fluffy on July 27, 2003, at 17:30:34
Posted by Barbara Cat on July 28, 2003, at 0:33:09
In reply to Re: Dancing queen and proud of it! » Barbara Cat, posted by katia on July 27, 2003, at 16:05:21
Katia,
To answer your questions, I actually started lithium to augment Remeron. Rem started out great and then pooped as all my SSRIs have done over the years. Lithium supercharged it right from the start for 3 months, then the usual fizzle. Through this board, I realized my symptoms were bipolar and not major depression. I stopped Remeron and was on lithium only (along with thyroid and other meds not directly related to mood). All was fine for about 2 months and then I began to have depression. I didn't want to increase lithium from 600mg because it had done well and I was afraid of it clobbering my thyroid further than it already was. But I was still depressed, although not like my prior awful pre-lithium mixed-states depressions. So I went on lamictal very slowly getting up to 75mg. Any more than that caused anxiety so I stopped increasing it.Lamictal 75mg and lithium 600mg worked pretty well (I was still mildly depressed but didn't realize it at the time). Then my Mom died from getting hit by a car in December and it was too much for me. I was also dealing with fibro as well (more info below). It was a rough time and I went on nortriptyline to bring me out of an severe depression. It indeed brought me back from the brink, but caused annoying side effects like cotton mouth, weight gain, constipation. So I decided to do a trial and tapered off nortrip. I was still taking 600mg lithium and 75 lamictal all this time. I bumped up lamictal mainly to offset any withdrawal from nortriptyline but was pleasantly surprised at how my mood was positively affected. I'd heard how lamictal really kicks in around 200mg as an antidepressant but always was hesitant to try it because of former anxiety, which I didn't experience this time around. I'm now at 150mg and feeling pretty darn good. One thing, however, that I've just found out tonight is that increasing sometimes brings on a case of the itchies. I've been scratching like I have fleas and feel like I'm going to go bonkers. I'm going to start a new thread on this. There were some threads a year ago, but it might be time to resurrect it. I hear it goes away, which I sure hope, cause this is the first combo that's really worked.
OK, fibromyalgia. The best I can describe it is how it feels to have a very bad flu where the muscles ache all over (not the joints), you feel totally wiped out but have insomnia, irritable bowel alternating between explosions and constipation, confusion and foggy thinking, incoordination, morning stiffness, anxiety and depression (it affects brain centers). These are uniform across the board with fibro folks. Mainly, most of the physical symptoms are there all the time in a mild to moderate form, but during the dreaded 'flares' which can last 2-3 weeks in bed, these symptoms are severe. Moderate exercise, avoidance of stress (hah!) and getting sleep are the keys to prevention, but sometimes a flare hits anyway and it can feel pretty hopeless. Add bipolar to this and yikes! However, the last flare not too long ago was the first where I wasn't despondent and this is since I've been on the higher dose of lamictal. So, that's why I hope I can continue with a med combo that's helped alot with my mood, even though it hasn't really made much impact on my fibro physical symptoms.
Sure hope you don't have fibro, but if you think you do, please converse with me. I'm more than happy to help if I can - been sleuthing this out for 3 years. Besides, it's a real bear to get diagnosed by your standard primary care doc. Good research has been done that's shedding some light, but it's still not taken seriously by too many doctors who tend to avoid what they don't understand. - Barbara
Posted by Barbara Cat on July 28, 2003, at 0:38:31
In reply to Katia--helpful article re: Lamictal, Li, Depakote, posted by fluffy on July 27, 2003, at 17:30:34
It's good to see lamictal being validated like that. It will be interesting to hear about lamictal+depakote experiences. Lithium's side effects concern me (thyroid, kidney) and if Dep is as effective without those problems, hey, I'm ready.
Posted by katia on July 28, 2003, at 2:17:57
In reply to Good article, Fluffers! » fluffy, posted by Barbara Cat on July 28, 2003, at 0:38:31
> It's good to see lamictal being validated like that. It will be interesting to hear about lamictal+depakote experiences. Lithium's side effects concern me (thyroid, kidney) and if Dep is as effective without those problems, hey, I'm ready.
Fluffers and Barb,
god, I just looked at the website on that rare rash that can form from either Depakote and/or Lamictal. It's almost put me off trying either one now. really. It scared the **** out of me. I almost wish I hadn't seen that web site. It's on another link/thread. I'm really really worried about this. Do you know the statistics? I feel very disheartened now - like dep. and lam. are no longer choices for me and i'll be like this forever. Those rashes seem incomprehensible to live through. Any comments?
Fluffy, I haven't read that article yet, but will.
katia
Posted by Barbara Cat on July 28, 2003, at 11:00:54
In reply to Re: Good article, Fluffers! » Barbara Cat, posted by katia on July 28, 2003, at 2:17:57
Katia,
The serious rash, Stevens Jacobsen rash, is very rare and only happens when one raises lamictal too quickly. Some slight rash may occur but it is rarely a problem and goes away. The true rash is unmistakable with blisters, fever and chills, and rarely develops in some very susceptible persons at too high a dosage. Problems can be prevented by raising dosage by 12.5mg a week until desired level, usually 100-200mg (but many are on higher). One caveat is that Depakote can raise blood levels of lamictal and there's caution about combining the two at the usual therapeutic dosages.I've recently developed a very annoying whole body itch. I only yesterday, after surfing the web, found out this sometimes happens when lamictal is raised. I forgot about the slow titration and went up 25mg in one week. If it doesn't subside soon I'll go back down 25mg, see how I feel, and raise it sloooooowly if needed. I don't feel anything is getting damaged or compromised, especially when you consider the damage stress and depression can do.
All of these mood meds have their price, some with side effects much worse than others. Lamictal is by far the most benign I've encountered as long as you have patience with the dosage increase. If you're really concerned about the rash, you can titrate even slower than 12.5mg a week. If you can have the patience to do this (sometimes we just want to feel better NOW), the rash should truly be very low on your priority of concerns. - Barbara
>
> Fluffers and Barb,
> god, I just looked at the website on that rare rash that can form from either Depakote and/or Lamictal. It's almost put me off trying either one now. really. It scared the **** out of me. I almost wish I hadn't seen that web site. It's on another link/thread. I'm really really worried about this. Do you know the statistics? I feel very disheartened now - like dep. and lam. are no longer choices for me and i'll be like this forever. Those rashes seem incomprehensible to live through. Any comments?
> Fluffy, I haven't read that article yet, but will.
> katia
Posted by katia on July 28, 2003, at 14:28:08
In reply to Lamictal rash. No prob with care » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on July 28, 2003, at 11:00:54
Thanks Barbara,
I need to hear this. So in the meantime, I've also talked to my pdoc. He is just quoting statistics, which is again, rare for that deadly rash to occur. But, it can also occur with Depakote, right? So I'm not surewhat to do, esp. b/c Dep. and Lam. might not be able to work together.
I do trust him, but I also trust myself and this board. I do have to remember his is the one who studied this stuff for years. And his reasoning to start with Depakote is that it's "tried and true" as a pretty good mood stabilizer. And that his rationale is this will hopefully even out the "ups" so that I won't crash into the "downs". and that to see this result takes at least the length of a cycle. He works a lot with bipolar people and is pretty well known and respected. (i've been dxed as BP NOS - falling somewhere in between mixed and II).
and I can't help but feel my intuition is telling me to start on the Lamictal first. He suggested that I just start with the Dep. and see if I can even tolerate it, i.e. do I crash into severe depression within a week, am I too nauseous, do I gain weight, etc. and if I can, then we'll see if it works for me or not by I guess, waiting out a cycle. Problem is don't really know what a cycle is for me as I'm just plain moody as hell, mainly with the down. I am always taking the bull by the horns and making my own decisions disregarding real professional opinions even and I'm thinking maybe this time, listen to him first and then take the bull by the horns?
Oh, by the way, I don't have insurance and I get my meds from Canada and this pharmacy there doesn't have the ER version yet.
Posted by starlight on July 28, 2003, at 15:07:21
In reply to Re: Dancing queen and proud of it! » Barbara Cat, posted by katia on July 27, 2003, at 16:05:21
That's so funny to me, I suffer from the same stuff. I have periods where everything is okay, but also have periods, more likely when I'm depressed, when my whole body aches. My knees, my back, it just hurts to be alive, and the fatigue is tough too. I think that's why I like to smoke pot occaisonally too - it eases those feelings. But then there are times when everything feels much better. That was what I liked when I tried both depakote and zoloft, was they both eased those feelings. But I think the lamictal has done that as well.
starlight
Posted by katia on July 28, 2003, at 15:27:52
In reply to Re: Dancing queen and proud of it!, posted by starlight on July 28, 2003, at 15:07:21
> That's so funny to me, I suffer from the same stuff. I have periods where everything is okay, but also have periods, more likely when I'm depressed, when my whole body aches. My knees, my back, it just hurts to be alive, and the fatigue is tough too. I think that's why I like to smoke pot occaisonally too - it eases those feelings. But then there are times when everything feels much better. That was what I liked when I tried both depakote and zoloft, was they both eased those feelings. But I think the lamictal has done that as well.
>
> starlightWhat was your experience on Depakote?
Katia
Posted by Barbara Cat on July 28, 2003, at 15:30:59
In reply to Re: Lamictal rash. No prob with care » Barbara Cat, posted by katia on July 28, 2003, at 14:28:08
Katia,
This is the first I've heard about a rash with Depakote. The only thing I can think of is that it's known to increase blood levels of lamictal, kinda acts synergistically with it. But if you go slow, I've also heard it's a great combo.If I were you, Katia, I'd definitely start with Depakote and add Lamictal as your pdoc suggests. The reason is that Lamictal can be activating, especially at first, and can bring on hypomania/mixed states without a more centering med (Depakote, lithium) to buffer it. We know how awful mixed states is! BTW, what is Bipolar NOS? Haven't heard of that dx, but it sounds like that's what I am too.
A while back I slowly cut back on lithium. I'm hypothyroid and was getting alarmed at how lithium was making it worse, as it's known to do. I was down to 300mg lithium every other day and taking 75mg lamictal, and began to feel wired and disjointed and frenzied. Added back the lithium and felt much, much better. For me, they seem to need each other. I've never taken Depakote, but heard that it can make you feel calm and centered. It's worth a try to see if it's enough and if not you can add Lamictal once you've got a good stable base. But promise yourself that you'll get good exercise every day because turning into a blimp is pretty depressing. I get loads of exercise when I'm not laid up with a fibro flare and can barely lose a pound. It's frustrating. But if I don't work out it takes only a week to add on 5 pounds. Don't let this stop you but look at it as a great excuse to use exercise as the best antidepressant around.
Posted by Barbara Cat on July 28, 2003, at 16:01:22
In reply to Re: Dancing queen and proud of it!, posted by starlight on July 28, 2003, at 15:07:21
Starlight,
How does pot affect you? I get kind of hyper on it and achey, like my muscles are knotted. I enjoy the enhanced creativity, but I think it makes me a bit hypomanic and not at all mellow.> That's so funny to me, I suffer from the same stuff. I have periods where everything is okay, but also have periods, more likely when I'm depressed, when my whole body aches. My knees, my back, it just hurts to be alive, and the fatigue is tough too. I think that's why I like to smoke pot occaisonally too - it eases those feelings. But then there are times when everything feels much better. That was what I liked when I tried both depakote and zoloft, was they both eased those feelings. But I think the lamictal has done that as well.
>
> starlight
Posted by starlight on July 28, 2003, at 16:33:15
In reply to Re: Dancing queen and proud of it! » starlight, posted by katia on July 28, 2003, at 15:27:52
I loved it - it was so calming - until it felt like it slowed down my metabolism. Having suffered previously from a severe eating disorder that is one side effect I refuse to tolerate.
starlight
Posted by starlight on July 28, 2003, at 16:40:00
In reply to Re: Dancing queen and proud of it! » starlight, posted by Barbara Cat on July 28, 2003, at 16:01:22
It's tough, it's a double edged sword. I love it, the calming effect, any pain is instantly dissipated. It's great. But, I tend to get a bit paranoid, don't like that it makes me feel like I'm hiding something, and it dries out my vocal cords some, which as a singer is a no no.
I don't feel like it enhances my creativity much, because I'm too self critical in that state. I find it harder to write or produce solid work, but I do like the let me wander around vocally and with my guitar aspect, if something actually works that's great but it's usually just a good wander.
starlight
Posted by katia on July 28, 2003, at 17:54:04
In reply to Re: Lamictal rash. No prob with care » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on July 28, 2003, at 15:30:59
> Katia,
> This is the first I've heard about a rash with Depakote. The only thing I can think of is that it's known to increase blood levels of lamictal, kinda acts synergistically with it. But if you go slow, I've also heard it's a great combo.
>
> If I were you, Katia, I'd definitely start with Depakote and add Lamictal as your pdoc suggests. The reason is that Lamictal can be activating, especially at first, and can bring on hypomania/mixed states without a more centering med (Depakote, lithium) to buffer it. We know how awful mixed states is! BTW, what is Bipolar NOS? Haven't heard of that dx, but it sounds like that's what I am too.
>
> A while back I slowly cut back on lithium. I'm hypothyroid and was getting alarmed at how lithium was making it worse, as it's known to do. I was down to 300mg lithium every other day and taking 75mg lamictal, and began to feel wired and disjointed and frenzied. Added back the lithium and felt much, much better. For me, they seem to need each other. I've never taken Depakote, but heard that it can make you feel calm and centered. It's worth a try to see if it's enough and if not you can add Lamictal once you've got a good stable base. But promise yourself that you'll get good exercise every day because turning into a blimp is pretty depressing. I get loads of exercise when I'm not laid up with a fibro flare and can barely lose a pound. It's frustrating. But if I don't work out it takes only a week to add on 5 pounds. Don't let this stop you but look at it as a great excuse to use exercise as the best antidepressant around.Barbara, thanks so much for taking so much time with me!
BP NOS = not otherwise specified! yea, I know, great, that explains a lot. But we're unsure and what the heck do we need such specific labels for anyway? I'm definitely "resonating" with BP II and BP mixed. most definitely the mixed.
I will take your advice and my doctors and start with the Depakote. If I begin to gain weight, I"m outta there. I am trying to get back into my regular yoga practice which always helps keep the weight off. I also wait tables (2x per week) and that's quite a bit of exercise. I'm already at my fat max. of the range I like to be. gained 10 of it back this past six months due to the zoloft, I think. zombies don't have energy to exercise. I've also moved three times in the past year and that takes it out of me.
It's a shame I can't get the XR formula though.
take good care,
Katia
Posted by Barbara Cat on July 29, 2003, at 12:12:10
In reply to Lamictal rash. No prob with care » katia, posted by Barbara Cat on July 28, 2003, at 11:00:54
Hi Friends,
Just wanted to say, for what it's worth, that even in the midst of feeling better it can get bad. I don't know who else to ease these feelings with except with those who have been there. There's alot of grief coming up, second wind of grief over my Mom, grief of feeling so bad physically just when I was starting to ride my bike and dance again. Panic attacks just on the edge. Not sleeping, sick and tired of hearing my husband go on and on and ON about his friggin golf game, not trusting anyone to not judge me when I'm this down, feeling very alone and very scared. The house turns to clutter because I can't think straight enough to pick up after myself, all kinds of impacted grief and pain are rising and I can't tell if it's 'real' and ultimately a healthy thing, or just mood masturbation. It's hard to be in my skin.No pill is working right now. High doses of benzos, ambien, don't put me to sleep and don't remove the claustrophobic panic. No amount of pain meds even touch the head and body aches. I'm not sure what's going on and the only thing I can think to do is drag my aching exhausted body somewhere to pace it off, write in my journal, hang on until the waves of sobbing and panic ease up. Alone, by myself. I'm feeling more and more estranged from my husband who I don't feel much in common with anymore, and besides he annoys me to tears with constant play by play descriptions of the baseball game, the golf game, stories of things I've heard 9 times before. Doesn't he get it? He's been through this with me before and is now showing great quantities of impatience and annoyance with me for taking time away from his golf game. I don't blame him at all for not wanting be around someone else's pain, but this is not the person I need around me right now. I don't feel safe with my friends or anyone with this stuff because it is so very hard to be around. There is no physical body I feel safe or comfortable with right now. Who wants to be around a very down person when the sun is shining on a summer day? Who wants to be known as a depressive downer of a person? I've been distracting myself from this thing for a while now and just this morning I finally turned around and faced it and admitted it. I can't rail against the exhaustion and sickness (gee, if only I didn't feel so crappy physically...) because they're just aspects of the encompassing sickness.
I guess it's good to come back to these times every now and then to realize what an immense struggle this stuff can be. Teaches us compassion. Life is hard, that can't be denied. Even tho my filters are usually strong enough to see the good parts, right now they're not very convincing. I'm tired, depleted, scared and fed up with the rug being pulled out every damn time. Sorry to dump this on you but I know you can understand better than anyone. Lithium, lamictal, ADs, whatever. They help and maintain, but when something this consuming hits, there's something else going on. My mind feels shattered, but that may not be a bad thing. Please keep me in your kind thoughts for the next few days. I need support from all kinds of 'unseen realms' cause those are the only kind I can relate to right now. - Barbara
Posted by katia on July 29, 2003, at 12:58:24
In reply to Feeling pretty bad, posted by Barbara Cat on July 29, 2003, at 12:12:10
> all kinds of impacted grief and pain are rising and I can't tell if it's 'real' and ultimately a healthy thing, or just mood masturbation. It's hard to be in my skin.
Barbara Barbara Barbara,
Honey, I've been there too! You are in my thoughts and I hope things start turning brighter for you! (For you're own sake, not anyone else's!).
I totally relate to trying to figure out if this is an "unhealthy" thing or "mood masturbation". Prior to acknowledging and looking at the fact that I had a mood disorder, I kept trying to figure it out through childhood stuff, therapy, etc. I wonder how many dollars I've spent on therapy working with my sad state and all the negative and perceived problems that come with it when in reality, I really needed to start working with medications to see what REALLY needed to be worked out and to see what was jaded by the lens of depression. It's so hard to weed out what is healthy and "unhealthy" - mood related emotions. We don't want to suppress the healthy ones in fear we're getting depressed again with more meds. and we're then so hypervigilant like when something like this night you're experiencing happens. We think, 'not again" ,that bottome is dropping out from under me again!". Sometimes in that state, I don't want my mood to get better, because I want to figure it out now! I can't take the roller coaster ride anymore.And remember when in this state EVERYTHING looks and feels a million times worse than it is. (like your relationship with hubby). It's hard on loved ones too to get this. When they see you so fine one minute, how could you be sad again?! It's harder on us though. They get to see it from the outside and even maybe throw some blame on us - which is like adding insult to injury. There is a book out there called "When Someone You Love is Depressed" by Laura Epstein Rosen and Xavier Amador. This might help? Does your husband have a support group? It might help you both in the long run.
It is so hard too because you're body is aching all over as well. It exacerbates everything. People who suffer from mood disorders are warriors of the psyche. It is so tough to hang on!!!!!! I'm alone because I've not managed to keep a hold of any boyfriend due to my temperment! It's all so difficult to sort out and live with and just when we do - that damn rug is pulled out again when we are least excepting it!
Be well and write again if you need to!
Katia> No pill is working right now. High doses of benzos, ambien, don't put me to sleep and don't remove the claustrophobic panic. No amount of pain meds even touch the head and body aches. I'm not sure what's going on and the only thing I can think to do is drag my aching exhausted body somewhere to pace it off, write in my journal, hang on until the waves of sobbing and panic ease up. Alone, by myself. I'm feeling more and more estranged from my husband who I don't feel much in common with anymore, and besides he annoys me to tears with constant play by play descriptions of the baseball game, the golf game, stories of things I've heard 9 times before. Doesn't he get it? He's been through this with me before and is now showing great quantities of impatience and annoyance with me for taking time away from his golf game. I don't blame him at all for not wanting be around someone else's pain, but this is not the person I need around me right now. I don't feel safe with my friends or anyone with this stuff because it is so very hard to be around. There is no physical body I feel safe or comfortable with right now. Who wants to be around a very down person when the sun is shining on a summer day? Who wants to be known as a depressive downer of a person? I've been distracting myself from this thing for a while now and just this morning I finally turned around and faced it and admitted it. I can't rail against the exhaustion and sickness (gee, if only I didn't feel so crappy physically...) because they're just aspects of the encompassing sickness.
>
> I guess it's good to come back to these times every now and then to realize what an immense struggle this stuff can be. Teaches us compassion. Life is hard, that can't be denied. Even tho my filters are usually strong enough to see the good parts, right now they're not very convincing. I'm tired, depleted, scared and fed up with the rug being pulled out every damn time. Sorry to dump this on you but I know you can understand better than anyone. Lithium, lamictal, ADs, whatever. They help and maintain, but when something this consuming hits, there's something else going on. My mind feels shattered, but that may not be a bad thing. Please keep me in your kind thoughts for the next few days. I need support from all kinds of 'unseen realms' cause those are the only kind I can relate to right now. - Barbara
Posted by fluffy on July 30, 2003, at 11:02:10
In reply to Feeling pretty bad, posted by Barbara Cat on July 29, 2003, at 12:12:10
Barbara Cat--
Oh I'm feeling your pain right now. I know EXACTLY what you mean about questioning your thoughts and feelings--am I annoyed with my situation and need to change it? Or is it just my disorder? What to do in this situation? I sometimes feel like I shouldn't pay a damned psychotherapist b/c it's hard enough paying for meds and a psychiatrist. But sometimes I think it would be good to have an accurate objective barometer for these times. Do you have a shrink? It might help take the weight off of your husband *a little*. And it would help you feel less guilty for needing him so much. Shrinks get paid to be needed, you know?
I was just thinking to myself that I'm slipping a little this morning. I've had these racing thoughts lately. I'm also feeling anxious and having trouble sleeping. Feeling like I'm on the verge of crying. Mostly, my racing thoughts are critical ones--mainly of my boyfriend right now. It's like he's my target for the moment. I feel like I want to strart fights with him. I'm really annoyed at some things he's done and said lately. Do I let him know how I feel at the risk of being completely inaccurate and just feeling bad? I'm wrestling with this cognitive bullshit, and frankly, I could use MY shrink right now.
Is it August, that dreaded month for me? I hate f*cking August. I always get mixed and panicky. I was hoping that meds would alleviate this ucky stuff at this time of year. It makes me want to take up smoking again. I'm also in the middle of a move, which exacerbates my stress.
So I'm with you, Barbara. I'm just trying to ride out this storm without annoying too many people around me. But feeling lonely doesn't help either.
Hang in!! Please take care and let me know how you do, and I'll do the same. Sorry to be a downer...but hey, misery loves company, right? I have to wonder if being chipper would annoy me even more.
best,
Katy
Posted by fluffy on July 30, 2003, at 11:40:46
In reply to Barb-cat--oh how I know!!, posted by fluffy on July 30, 2003, at 11:02:10
By the way, Barbara--
I feel that I was mood masturbating just then with my last post. I think all you need is someone to care about you right now. What did I do? Just selfishly complained about MY feelings. So I want to send you the best vibes I can right now of empathy and virtual hugging. (((HUGS)))
How are you feeling today, sweet Barbara? I hope, hope, hope a little better.Katy
Posted by Barbara Cat on July 30, 2003, at 11:58:15
In reply to Barb-cat--oh how I know!!, posted by fluffy on July 30, 2003, at 11:02:10
Thanks my friends,
Your being there has been a real port in the storm. I was fighting off panic attacks all day yesterday and finally was able to take a nap in the afternoon, after not sleeping much the last few nights. Sure enough, just when I'm settling down for a nice rest - BOOM! I'm in the midst of a full blown panic attack. I HATE those things!! I can stand anything but not that smothering panic and terror!! No matter how many times I go through them and survive, the next one is never any easier. Can this be the nortriptyline withdrawal I thought I'd escaped? I am not going back to those shit bunging fat pills ever again. I'm almost willing to trade panic attacks for having some saliva again (no, on second thought). The next thing is doing what I can to settle my adrenals cause for whatever reason, this is a classic fight/flight response. My hubby was there for me througout and once again I feel grateful for him. He puts up with alot and the least I can do is listen to his interminable golf plays.Katy, I know what you mean about August. You're the first person I know who feels that way as well. It just feels hot, bright and claustrophobic. I'd much prefer a nice soft rainy day. As you well know, moving is horribly stressful and you either feel it during or afterward. Don't know if you drink coffee. It's so tempting to use extra caffeine as fuel, but it's very depleting in the long run. I've stopped it since feeling this way and even tho I know it's better for me, the headaches are the pits.
As far as the question of are our responses real or a product of our disorder, I dunno, but our feelings sure are real and have to be respected. The trick is how to move through them without alienating everyone else around us. The problem is, during these times I generally don't have much love in my heart for most human beings. Animals, yes. People, no.
I do have a shrink but he's your typical HMO guy. He cares, but there's not alot he can do in our 20 minutes a month. I end up suggesting meds to him and right now I'm out of ideas.
Katia, you mentioned you have mixed states and I know Katy is also bipolar. I wonder if this wild torment is unique to our bipolar/mixed-states condition. I don't hear much about this form of 'depression', it's usually the blahs, no motivation, etc., instead of this fractured frightening stuff. Usually I can get by and maintain by meditation but try to meditate in this state and it's sure to bring on a panic. I guess I'll scrounge some klonopin out of my pdoc. We try one thing then another and they all poop out. My current valium works for an hour then I'm in alarm again. Klonopin is due for another round. Good luck to you as well and remember, sometimes you just need to cry. I have to watch it doesn't turn into wailing and thrashing cause it feeds on itself and gives me a headache and a swollen face. Writing in my journal seems to be the most helpful and only thing I can manage. May be even better than a shrink. - Barbara
Posted by fluffy on July 30, 2003, at 12:25:37
In reply to Thanks Katy, Katia, posted by Barbara Cat on July 30, 2003, at 11:58:15
> Katy, I know what you mean about August. You're the first person I know who feels that way as well. It just feels hot, bright and claustrophobic. I'd much prefer a nice soft rainy day. As you well know, moving is horribly stressful and you either feel it during or afterward.AAARRGH--I thought I could escape it this time without getting mixed or depressed. They always say that stress can bring on episodes, and I've said it myself. But I hoped this run of stability would hold for awhile. Maybe it won't be that bad this time. I'm at the stage where I'm sleeping at mom and dad's place--my new place isn't ready, and my old place is just empty and depressing. What else can I do but just hang on?
>Don't know if you drink coffee. It's so tempting to use extra caffeine as fuel, but it's very depleting in the long run. I've stopped it since feeling this way and even tho I know it's better for me, the headaches are the pits.
I'm a coffee JUNKY. I drink coffee every day. I usually give it up at this time of year due to panic. But it sure helps to have something to look forward to in the morning when I'm not depressed/panicky.
> Katia, you mentioned you have mixed states and I know Katy is also bipolar. I wonder if this wild torment is unique to our bipolar/mixed-states condition. I don't hear much about this form of 'depression', it's usually the blahs, no motivation, etc., instead of this fractured frightening stuff.
Do you guys ever switch from the mixed stuff into full blown, lethagic, slow depression? I seem to get mixed first (which I think is my form of mania) and then transition into depression (typical depression with loss of appetite, etc. which lasts for a LONG time).
I think August is a peak month for Mania (second to March and April). So I'm not surprised when I look at my history that EVERY August to September I became mixed and then fully depressed. I live in a tropical climate, so the sun gets unbearable for me (both in terms of heat and brightness) at this time. Oh how I long for cool breezes and shivering.
I see my doctor this monday. Maybe something else on board would help. *sigh*
lovins,
Katyp.s. glad you are feeling better about your hubby.
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