![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 2 to 26 of 41. Go back in thread:
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 19, 2003, at 7:56:39
In reply to Larry Hoover, posted by McPac on July 14, 2003, at 23:47:49
> Lar,
> apart from SAM-e itself, what do you think of this company's "Cellfood" product (they claim that not only do you get SAM-e but you get these benefits provided by the "Cellfood", whatever that is. Link:
>
> http://www.cellfood.us/index.htmlI don't know where to start.....the "technical information" section is so friggin' bogus. I'll give them credit for one thing, they are the first site I've ever seen refer to singlet oxygen, but they did so quite incorrectly. If their product actually produces singlet oxygen, you're in BIG trouble. Singlet oxygen is a highly activated state, based on the orbital configuration of the electrons. It will react with anything, including atoms which are said to not react with other atoms. It's not a charge state, it's an activation state.
Save your money.
Lar
P.S. About the SAMe, I think it's a very expensive way to try and solve a problem that can be dealt with by taking TMG and methionine (though methionine isn't necessary for the TMG to work). Moreover, if you're deficient in SAMe, taking some as a supplement will only make more homocysteine, which is probably already elevated due to SAMe depletion.
Posted by McPac on July 19, 2003, at 14:19:08
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on July 19, 2003, at 7:56:39
Lar,
a nurse at Pfeiffer told me to go and get some SAM-e and start taking it.....I did NOT buy that "Cellfood" brand, lol....I just bought some SAM-e from iherb.com (it wasn't too costly)....it always says to take folate, B6 & B12 with it (maybe some other vitamins too?)....well, I can't take a folic acid supp (as per Pfeiffer) but I do take methionine, B6, B12 & TMG---that should turn the Sam-e-created homocysteine back into methionine, correct? (in other words, I shouldn't have to worry about the SAM-e causing a homocysteine problem if I'm taking these other supps, correct?).....I was looking for a natural supplement to act as an anti-dep.....the vitamins/supps that I'm taking don't really seem to "lift" my mood much at all, they seem "weak" and "unnoticeable"...most herbs (like SJWort) are "off limits" due to my meds so I thought I'd try some Sam-e for the hell of it.............as for Pfeiffer, I've gotten some (most) of my test results back recently and I didn't see any/much improvement.....the MAIN thing they say they're treating me for is high histamine...well, last October (when I first went there and BEFORE their treatment plan) my histamine level was 129....just a couple of weeks ago (AFTER handfuls of vitamins/supps EVERY DAY for 7 months) my histamine was 186!......the nurse said it might be due to the different season (Summer)........well, all I know is that the number went the WRONG way, and SIGNIFICANTLY higher no less.......my Zinc was at 96 (BEFORE taking any Zinc) and it was at 91 AFTER taking 85 mg of Zinc EVERY DAY for 7 months!....makes no sense to me.......then the nurse says not to get caught up in the numbers, that they're treating the "person" and not numbers....funny though, it seems like they like to use numbers when the number is a favorable one yet they say forget the numbers when it's not a favorable one.........nurse also said that there are many things that they can try and their treatment starts slowly because they have to see how my body is going to react to vit's/supp's.....she mentioned possibly raising the TMG and methionine supp's....she also asked if I'd be willing to try vitamin B12 injections......I just really don't know what to think of Pfeiffer....the things that I read about their methods sound very good, I'm just not sure if I really notice much at all...she says they've just started treating me, that it takes time.......I have felt MUCH more tired, lethargic since taking all these vit's/supps---I don't know which ones could be doing it???? There have been other times in the past when I've taken vitamins (even when not taking much vitamins at all) that I've felt MORE tired when taking vit's.....I definitely feel much more fatigued since taking all their vit's/supps....one other thing is that I have felt significant pressure/blockage in my ears since starting their plan...again, I don't know which vit's/supps could be the problem, all I know is that since starting their plan my ears almost constantly feel this pressure/blockage in them......off the top of my head, I'm taking vitamins A,C,D,E, B6, B12, methionine, TMG, (the B6 metabolite thingy p5p (whatever), Zinc, fish oil, calcium, magnesium, inositol, manganese....I think that's it.....doesn't seem like powerful mood enhancing agents to me, seems rather lame or mild as far as mood enhancing supps.......which is why I thought I'd see if a little SAM-e had any effect at all, thought it might have a little more "pop" to it........take care Lar!
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 23, 2003, at 8:02:16
In reply to Lar, Re: Larry Hoover, posted by McPac on July 19, 2003, at 14:19:08
> Lar,
> a nurse at Pfeiffer told me to go and get some SAM-e and start taking it.....I did NOT buy that "Cellfood" brand, lol....I just bought some SAM-e from iherb.com (it wasn't too costly)....it always says to take folate, B6 & B12 with it (maybe some other vitamins too?)....well, I can't take a folic acid supp (as per Pfeiffer) but I do take methionine, B6, B12 & TMG---that should turn the Sam-e-created homocysteine back into methionine, correct? (in other words, I shouldn't have to worry about the SAM-e causing a homocysteine problem if I'm taking these other supps, correct?).....Correct.
About Pfeiffer.....
Conceptually, I have a problem with any theorist who keeps trying to prove his theory over and over again. (They treat you based on numbers from tests. Then when the tests don't change, they don't discard the theory, they suggest that there's something quirky about you.) It's called petitio principii, begging the question. In other words, to believe the conclusion, you must already believe in the premises of the theory itself.
I've mentioned that I like some of the Pfeiffer ideas (they are a good starting point for individual experimentation, and would have saved me time in finding what works for me), but I'm not sold on his categorization, his exclusions and inclusions (supplements and nutrients).
Your own list doesn't mention B3. Niacinamide is anti-histaminic. So is NADH.
If you're feeling lethargic, I'd also suggest that you try upping the dose of TMG. It can perk you up. As can DLPA.
You mention meds. What meds are you taking? They may be the source of the lethargy. Anything's possible.
The supps you've been taking may not have had the positive mood effect you've been seeking, but I'm convinced they've been good for your general health, notwithstanding.
Lar
Posted by McPac on July 23, 2003, at 20:03:45
In reply to Re: Pfeiffer » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on July 23, 2003, at 8:02:16
Your own list doesn't mention B3. Niacinamide is anti-histaminic. So is NADH.
>>>>>>>>>>>>Lar, Pfeiffer told me NO niacin and folic acid supplementation, as they say that niacin and folic acid both help build histamine. (If niacin were a 'no-no', wouldn't niacinamide also be a 'no-no', for histamine-building reasons also?)
I always read about how you're supposed to take a B-complex formula that gives you a balance of ALL the B-vitamins...yet for 7+ months now I have been taking B-6 & B-12 WITHOUT the other B's (this is per Pfeiffer's treatment plan)......they say NO niacin (due to reason above)....but what about B-1, B-2 and others? I've read about some of these other B-vitamins helping some people for depression....but I'm wondering if my B-vitamins are getting out of whack, since I'm only taking a certain few (at large doses too)? I'd really like to take BOTH niacinamide AND folic acid but I can hear it now---if my histamine level numbers don't get better then Pfeiffer will simply have a nice excuse, i.e. "Well, we told you NO niacin and folic acid and you didn't listen....blah, blah, blah". Well, I DID listen and took EVERYTHING that they told me too and my histamine went from 129 to 186!!! Then they say, "Well, it's a different season". They are supposed to be tweaking/modifying my plan soon....the nurse did mention that they could increase the TMG (and I think the methionine too)....I'll find out what their recommendations are fairly soon....but I've lost a lot of my enthusiasm towards them....maybe I was expecting Pfeiffer to really help me a lot....I was hoping that their alternative methods would really pan out....gotta be something better than just popping these damn psych pills.....they said that high histamine blocks serotonin production and that by lowering my histamine my body would be able to produce more serotonin.....well, maybe if I ever CAN get my histamine level lowered then I'll find out IF lowering my histamine will make a difference! It's hard to tell if lowering my histamine level really would help since it's going the WRONG way! They said 129 sucked, well it's 186 now! (I'd love to know just HOW high/bad this 186 number is but I can't find info. on the net talking about specific numbers (lots of stuff on histamine levels but nothing, i.e. charts,graphs, etc., that tells you anything about specific numbers and what those numbers mean....all I know is that 129 was high and that 186 is higher....gee, that means a lot).....so I guess it's impossible for me to say if I'd be feeling better with a good, lower number when the number keeps heading the wrong way!If you're feeling lethargic, I'd also suggest that you try upping the dose of TMG. It can perk you up. As can DLPA.
>>>>>>>>>>>> (As I mentioned above, they mentioned possibly raising my TMG dose...might that help w/ depression Lar, or is that more for lethargy?
You mention meds. What meds are you taking? They may be the source of the lethargy. Anything's possible.
>>>>>>>>>Lar, I've been taking SSRI meds for about 11 years.....they caused temper/anger in me.....I am now on Remeron 45 mg at night and 300 mg lithium/day...that's it....the meds that have always worked great for me (depression/ocd) have been Nardil and the SSRI's (though with side effects, of course)....would be nice to have a natural supplementation plan that could do what those meds do in my body.....I'd like to be able to affect serotonin with supp's the way meds do....yeah, I know, the 'serotonin police' on this board will love that remark, lol, but whatever those SSRI's & Nardil does is what works for me (WHAT DO they DO that helps ocd/dep????? IS there an answer???).....Remeron doesn't affect serotonin as much....it also doesn't help me as much, lol, but at least I don't have the side effects of the SSRI's....
The supps you've been taking may not have had the positive mood effect you've been seeking, but I'm convinced they've been good for your general health, notwithstanding.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Lar! I just thought of something.....can I try SJWort now that I'm no longer on an ssri??? Or does Remeron still make taking SJW a 'no-no'? (Actually, the natural supp's MAY exist to help me BUT the good ones are always NOT ALLOWED to be taken w/ anti-dep's! Hard to tell if natural supps would work when the best ones are always OFF LIMITS!) Take care Lar! Your advice RULES!
Posted by Caleb462 on July 24, 2003, at 0:18:25
In reply to Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer, posted by McPac on July 23, 2003, at 20:03:45
"WHAT DO they DO that helps ocd/dep????? IS there an answer"
Unfortunately, no... there is no definite answer.
There is some data, for instance responders to ADs usually show heightened senstivity of D3 receptors, lowered senstivity at 5-HT2 and 5-HT3 receptors, etc.But the brain is enormously complex, and it will be a long time before we really figure what exactly these meds do.
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 25, 2003, at 13:27:48
In reply to Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer, posted by McPac on July 23, 2003, at 20:03:45
>> Your own list doesn't mention B3. Niacinamide is anti-histaminic. So is NADH.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>Lar, Pfeiffer told me NO niacin and folic acid supplementation, as they say that niacin and folic acid both help build histamine. (If niacin were a 'no-no', wouldn't niacinamide also be a 'no-no', for histamine-building reasons also?)Niacinamide blocks histamine release. NADH is used to destroy histamine in the brain.
Niacin causes histamine release. That's what "niacin flush" is all about.
> I always read about how you're supposed to take a B-complex formula that gives you a balance of ALL the B-vitamins...yet for 7+ months now I have been taking B-6 & B-12 WITHOUT the other B's (this is per Pfeiffer's treatment plan)......they say NO niacin (due to reason above)....but what about B-1, B-2 and others? I've read about some of these other B-vitamins helping some people for depression....but I'm wondering if my B-vitamins are getting out of whack, since I'm only taking a certain few (at large doses too)? I'd really like to take BOTH niacinamide AND folic acid but I can hear it now---if my histamine level numbers don't get better then Pfeiffer will simply have a nice excuse, i.e. "Well, we told you NO niacin and folic acid and you didn't listen....blah, blah, blah". Well, I DID listen and took EVERYTHING that they told me too and my histamine went from 129 to 186!!!
Then, it's not working, is it? I cannot conceive of a reason why a B-complex formulation would cause you any harm, notwhithstanding all of Pfeiffer's advice.
>Then they say, "Well, it's a different season". They are supposed to be tweaking/modifying my plan soon....the nurse did mention that they could increase the TMG (and I think the methionine too)....I'll find out what their recommendations are fairly soon....but I've lost a lot of my enthusiasm towards them....maybe I was expecting Pfeiffer to really help me a lot....I was hoping that their alternative methods would really pan out....gotta be something better than just popping these damn psych pills.....they said that high histamine blocks serotonin production and that by lowering my histamine my body would be able to produce more serotonin.....well, maybe if I ever CAN get my histamine level lowered then I'll find out IF lowering my histamine will make a difference!
Let me interject.....theories don't prove anything. Whether histamine has anything to do with serotonin and depression is not known. Nor is it known why nutrients may help ease the symptoms of depression. The only thing we know is that nutrients do ease the symptoms of depression in some people. Not why. Just that they may help.
> It's hard to tell if lowering my histamine level really would help since it's going the WRONG way! They said 129 sucked, well it's 186 now! (I'd love to know just HOW high/bad this 186 number is but I can't find info. on the net talking about specific numbers (lots of stuff on histamine levels but nothing, i.e. charts,graphs, etc., that tells you anything about specific numbers and what those numbers mean....all I know is that 129 was high and that 186 is higher....gee, that means a lot).....so I guess it's impossible for me to say if I'd be feeling better with a good, lower number when the number keeps heading the wrong way!
Are you feeling better? That's the only thing that matters, IMHO.
> If you're feeling lethargic, I'd also suggest that you try upping the dose of TMG. It can perk you up. As can DLPA.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> (As I mentioned above, they mentioned possibly raising my TMG dose...might that help w/ depression Lar, or is that more for lethargy?TMG will enhance your natural formation of SAMe, via methionine. Why it gives a feeling of energy is not something I understand. I consider TMG to be antidepressant, but that's just my opinion.
> You mention meds. What meds are you taking? They may be the source of the lethargy. Anything's possible.
>
> >>>>>>>>>Lar, I've been taking SSRI meds for about 11 years.....they caused temper/anger in me.....I am now on Remeron 45 mg at night and 300 mg lithium/day...that's it....the meds that have always worked great for me (depression/ocd) have been Nardil and the SSRI's (though with side effects, of course)....would be nice to have a natural supplementation plan that could do what those meds do in my body.....I'd like to be able to affect serotonin with supp's the way meds do....yeah, I know, the 'serotonin police' on this board will love that remark, lol, but whatever those SSRI's & Nardil does is what works for me (WHAT DO they DO that helps ocd/dep????? IS there an answer???).....Remeron doesn't affect serotonin as much....it also doesn't help me as much, lol, but at least I don't have the side effects of the SSRI's....I'm just suggesting that your meds may be part of the problem, despite your focus on the nutrients. Lithium totally messed with my energy, focus, and ambition. Remeron messed me up in a lot of ways, too.
> The supps you've been taking may not have had the positive mood effect you've been seeking, but I'm convinced they've been good for your general health, notwithstanding.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Lar! I just thought of something.....can I try SJWort now that I'm no longer on an ssri??? Or does Remeron still make taking SJW a 'no-no'? (Actually, the natural supp's MAY exist to help me BUT the good ones are always NOT ALLOWED to be taken w/ anti-dep's! Hard to tell if natural supps would work when the best ones are always OFF LIMITS!) Take care Lar! Your advice RULES!My advice is free, but that may be all it's worth.
I don't know of a reason why you couldn't take SJW with Remeron, as you can safely combine Remeron with tricyclics and SSRIs.
Lar
Posted by samplemethod on July 26, 2003, at 5:40:36
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on July 25, 2003, at 13:27:48
Lar doesn't niacinamide get converted to niacin eventually so then this thing you say about them having opposite effects is a bit of i dunno.
If I have small amounts of niacin I dont get the flush. But If i have a large amount I do.
I know ron hill takes niacin with his NADH TMG combo, whereas you take niacinamide with your NADH TMG combo. You both say the niacin or niacinamide in question reduces your irritability.
I am unsure about it all...got any hard facts about the opposite effects of niacinamide and niacin? I personally believe I have had bad effects from 500mg niacinamide... I guess you could say it benzos me out.. and I dont like that feeling. I am trying to get to the bottom of it.Cheers
> >> Your own list doesn't mention B3. Niacinamide is anti-histaminic. So is NADH.
> >
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>Lar, Pfeiffer told me NO niacin and folic acid supplementation, as they say that niacin and folic acid both help build histamine. (If niacin were a 'no-no', wouldn't niacinamide also be a 'no-no', for histamine-building reasons also?)
>
> Niacinamide blocks histamine release. NADH is used to destroy histamine in the brain.
>
> Niacin causes histamine release. That's what "niacin flush" is all about.
>
> > I always read about how you're supposed to take a B-complex formula that gives you a balance of ALL the B-vitamins...yet for 7+ months now I have been taking B-6 & B-12 WITHOUT the other B's (this is per Pfeiffer's treatment plan)......they say NO niacin (due to reason above)....but what about B-1, B-2 and others? I've read about some of these other B-vitamins helping some people for depression....but I'm wondering if my B-vitamins are getting out of whack, since I'm only taking a certain few (at large doses too)? I'd really like to take BOTH niacinamide AND folic acid but I can hear it now---if my histamine level numbers don't get better then Pfeiffer will simply have a nice excuse, i.e. "Well, we told you NO niacin and folic acid and you didn't listen....blah, blah, blah". Well, I DID listen and took EVERYTHING that they told me too and my histamine went from 129 to 186!!!
>
> Then, it's not working, is it? I cannot conceive of a reason why a B-complex formulation would cause you any harm, notwhithstanding all of Pfeiffer's advice.
>
> >Then they say, "Well, it's a different season". They are supposed to be tweaking/modifying my plan soon....the nurse did mention that they could increase the TMG (and I think the methionine too)....I'll find out what their recommendations are fairly soon....but I've lost a lot of my enthusiasm towards them....maybe I was expecting Pfeiffer to really help me a lot....I was hoping that their alternative methods would really pan out....gotta be something better than just popping these damn psych pills.....they said that high histamine blocks serotonin production and that by lowering my histamine my body would be able to produce more serotonin.....well, maybe if I ever CAN get my histamine level lowered then I'll find out IF lowering my histamine will make a difference!
>
> Let me interject.....theories don't prove anything. Whether histamine has anything to do with serotonin and depression is not known. Nor is it known why nutrients may help ease the symptoms of depression. The only thing we know is that nutrients do ease the symptoms of depression in some people. Not why. Just that they may help.
>
> > It's hard to tell if lowering my histamine level really would help since it's going the WRONG way! They said 129 sucked, well it's 186 now! (I'd love to know just HOW high/bad this 186 number is but I can't find info. on the net talking about specific numbers (lots of stuff on histamine levels but nothing, i.e. charts,graphs, etc., that tells you anything about specific numbers and what those numbers mean....all I know is that 129 was high and that 186 is higher....gee, that means a lot).....so I guess it's impossible for me to say if I'd be feeling better with a good, lower number when the number keeps heading the wrong way!
>
> Are you feeling better? That's the only thing that matters, IMHO.
>
> > If you're feeling lethargic, I'd also suggest that you try upping the dose of TMG. It can perk you up. As can DLPA.
> >
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> (As I mentioned above, they mentioned possibly raising my TMG dose...might that help w/ depression Lar, or is that more for lethargy?
>
> TMG will enhance your natural formation of SAMe, via methionine. Why it gives a feeling of energy is not something I understand. I consider TMG to be antidepressant, but that's just my opinion.
>
> > You mention meds. What meds are you taking? They may be the source of the lethargy. Anything's possible.
> >
> > >>>>>>>>>Lar, I've been taking SSRI meds for about 11 years.....they caused temper/anger in me.....I am now on Remeron 45 mg at night and 300 mg lithium/day...that's it....the meds that have always worked great for me (depression/ocd) have been Nardil and the SSRI's (though with side effects, of course)....would be nice to have a natural supplementation plan that could do what those meds do in my body.....I'd like to be able to affect serotonin with supp's the way meds do....yeah, I know, the 'serotonin police' on this board will love that remark, lol, but whatever those SSRI's & Nardil does is what works for me (WHAT DO they DO that helps ocd/dep????? IS there an answer???).....Remeron doesn't affect serotonin as much....it also doesn't help me as much, lol, but at least I don't have the side effects of the SSRI's....
>
> I'm just suggesting that your meds may be part of the problem, despite your focus on the nutrients. Lithium totally messed with my energy, focus, and ambition. Remeron messed me up in a lot of ways, too.
>
> > The supps you've been taking may not have had the positive mood effect you've been seeking, but I'm convinced they've been good for your general health, notwithstanding.
> >
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Lar! I just thought of something.....can I try SJWort now that I'm no longer on an ssri??? Or does Remeron still make taking SJW a 'no-no'? (Actually, the natural supp's MAY exist to help me BUT the good ones are always NOT ALLOWED to be taken w/ anti-dep's! Hard to tell if natural supps would work when the best ones are always OFF LIMITS!) Take care Lar! Your advice RULES!
>
> My advice is free, but that may be all it's worth.
>
> I don't know of a reason why you couldn't take SJW with Remeron, as you can safely combine Remeron with tricyclics and SSRIs.
>
> Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 26, 2003, at 9:29:22
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer » Larry Hoover, posted by samplemethod on July 26, 2003, at 5:40:36
> Lar doesn't niacinamide get converted to niacin eventually so then this thing you say about them having opposite effects is a bit of i dunno.
I'll answer that with a yes, but....
Niacin and niacinamide are similar enough as to share many properties, but different enough to have unique activities, too. There will be conversion of niacinamide to niacin (nicotinic acid), but that will be slow enough to be (most likely) unnoticeable.
From: http://www.pemphigus.org/am_nicotinamide.html
"Nicotinamide inhibits polymorphonuclear cell (PMN) and eosinophil chemotaxis and blocks IgE-mediated histamine release and mast cell degranulation."> If I have small amounts of niacin I dont get the flush. But If i have a large amount I do.
There's a threshold for the effect to be perceptible. That threshold not only differs between individuals, but moreover, will change with time for a particular individual. I am of the understanding that you can develop a tolerance (i.e. lose the flush effect) with long-term niacin supplementation.
> I know ron hill takes niacin with his NADH TMG combo, whereas you take niacinamide with your NADH TMG combo. You both say the niacin or niacinamide in question reduces your irritability.As I mentioned earlier, most of the effects of these two substances will be similar. In some particular situations, it is the differences that are important.
> I am unsure about it all...got any hard facts about the opposite effects of niacinamide and niacin? I personally believe I have had bad effects from 500mg niacinamide... I guess you could say it benzos me out.. and I dont like that feeling.Niacinamide, but not niacin, binds quite effectively to the GABA receptor, and thereby increases the sensitivity of that receptor. Again, dose responsiveness is an individual trait.
>I am trying to get to the bottom of it.
>
> CheersI can't find the reference for the central nervous system effect of NADH on histamine.....
Lar
Posted by McPac on July 27, 2003, at 0:34:43
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on July 25, 2003, at 13:27:48
NADH is used to destroy histamine in the brain.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I'm just totally at a loss why Pfeiffer wouldn't have me taking something like NADH then....destroying histamine is their main goal with me!
Then, it's not working, is it?
>>>>>>> Nope! I may very well be getting some other health benefits but my histamine level is certainly not coming down...quite the contrary!
I cannot conceive of a reason why a B-complex formulation would cause you any harm, notwhithstanding all of Pfeiffer's advice.
>>>>>>>>>>>I DID see another web site saying absolutely NO folic acid if you have a high histamine level which you are trying to lower.
TMG will enhance your natural formation of SAMe, via methionine.>>>>>>>>>>> I started taking SAM-e recently...is it ok to take SAM-e everyday (or is this not a good idea? i.e., will your body stop making it on its own (or something to that effect?)
I'm just suggesting that your meds may be part of the problem, despite your focus on the nutrients.
Lithium totally messed with my energy, focus, and ambition. Remeron messed me up in a lot of ways, too.
>>>>>>>>>The extreme lethargy and tiredness began RIGHT AFTER starting Pfeiffer's supplement plan....the lithium I've taken for 20 years....the Remeron isn't new either....again, it started RIGHT AFTER starting Pfeiffer's plan...my body has gotten more used to the supps but I'm still more lethargic and tired than I was prior to Pfeiffer.My advice is free, but that may be all it's worth.
>>>>>>>>>>It's highly valued by me!
I don't know of a reason why you couldn't take SJW with Remeron, as you can safely combine Remeron with tricyclics and SSRIs.
>>>>>>>>>> "Oh Happy Day".......I've always wanted to try SJW but I've been on those damned ssri's for eons! I'll look into SJW + Remeron (Remeron does effect serotonin, though I don't believe as much as the ssri's...that's why I thought Rem. might still not be allowed to be combined w/ SJW.....but if I can take the combo, I likely WILL! OK, one more thought now---can SAM-e and SJW be taken together? THANK YOU as always Hoovermeister!!!!
Posted by McPac on July 27, 2003, at 0:49:32
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer, posted by Caleb462 on July 24, 2003, at 0:18:25
"WHAT DO they DO that helps ocd/dep????? IS there an answer"
Unfortunately, no... there is no definite answer.
There is some data, for instance responders to ADs usually show heightened senstivity of D3 receptors, lowered senstivity at 5-HT2 and 5-HT3 receptors, etc.>>>>>>>>>>>>>Great to see you back here again Caleb! As for the above.....it's been the SSRI's and Nardil...those AD's, that have been most effective BY FAR for my dep and esp. ocd....other AD's didn't cut it....and don't the ssri's and Nardil have more of an effect on serotonin than the older TCA's?......I don't know but I thought they effected serotonin more (which was why I thought serotonin 'might' be key for ME (though I still believe that it's FAR MORE complex than just that....I know the brain is INCREDIBLY complex and w/ endless interactions going on in it....but the ssri's especially & Nardil also, help SO WELL that I wonder WHY they help so much better than other AD's? Just wondering....take care Caleb!!!
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 27, 2003, at 9:42:39
In reply to Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer, posted by McPac on July 27, 2003, at 0:34:43
>
> NADH is used to destroy histamine in the brain.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I'm just totally at a loss why Pfeiffer wouldn't have me taking something like NADH then....destroying histamine is their main goal with me!That's their theory. Whether it's really a problem for you (as a root cause of your symptoms) is not proven, nor is it provable.
> Then, it's not working, is it?
>
> >>>>>>> Nope! I may very well be getting some other health benefits but my histamine level is certainly not coming down...quite the contrary!For any treatment I've ever heard of, there will be individuals who fail to respond as predicted. That's why it's an axiom in science that statistics cannot be applied to individuals; statistics represent patterns, and there is no pattern for a single person. After seven months, you've conducted a reasonable trial of their advice, IMHO.
> I cannot conceive of a reason why a B-complex formulation would cause you any harm, notwhithstanding all of Pfeiffer's advice.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>I DID see another web site saying absolutely NO folic acid if you have a high histamine level which you are trying to lower.I've seen a number of sites with the same advice, but they all seem to be based on a single primary source. It's merely repetition of a theme.
Folate is indeed an essential component of histamine synthesis, from the amino acid histidine. However, folate also promotes the creation of other things from histidine, and also plays a role in the destruction of histamine. The balance of these factors will be different in every person. The argument that folate must be avoided to block histamine is a simplification of an exceedingly complex process. You cannot know the relative rate of the individual processes in a single person. It's like looking at a snapshot of the cars tearing around a racetrack. You can't tell from a photo which car is the fastest one.
> TMG will enhance your natural formation of SAMe, via methionine.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I started taking SAM-e recently...is it ok to take SAM-e everyday (or is this not a good idea? i.e., will your body stop making it on its own (or something to that effect?)I have no idea, but it's reasonable that there may be a feedback inhibition of SAMe synthesis if there's a lot of it floating around.
> I'm just suggesting that your meds may be part of the problem, despite your focus on the nutrients.
> Lithium totally messed with my energy, focus, and ambition. Remeron messed me up in a lot of ways, too.
>
> >>>>>>>>>The extreme lethargy and tiredness began RIGHT AFTER starting Pfeiffer's supplement plan....the lithium I've taken for 20 years....the Remeron isn't new either....again, it started RIGHT AFTER starting Pfeiffer's plan...my body has gotten more used to the supps but I'm still more lethargic and tired than I was prior to Pfeiffer.That happens to some people, and for reasons that I've never seen adequately explained.
All I can suggest is that you try varying the supplements you take. For example, drop the inositol for a week, and see if you rebound a bit. Drop the zinc, in similar test. Drop all the B's for a week. That sort of thing.
Or, add in the "forbidden" supps, one at a time, and see if they do anything.
> My advice is free, but that may be all it's worth.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>It's highly valued by me!I appreciate that. The reason I raised the issue at all is that you are paying Pfeiffer for advice that isn't working. All I can offer you is another form of advice. It may or may not be of any value to you, either.
> I don't know of a reason why you couldn't take SJW with Remeron, as you can safely combine Remeron with tricyclics and SSRIs.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> "Oh Happy Day".......I've always wanted to try SJW but I've been on those damned ssri's for eons! I'll look into SJW + Remeron (Remeron does effect serotonin, though I don't believe as much as the ssri's...that's why I thought Rem. might still not be allowed to be combined w/ SJW.....but if I can take the combo, I likely WILL! OK, one more thought now---can SAM-e and SJW be taken together? THANK YOU as always Hoovermeister!!!!Combining SAMe with SJW (and, presumably, while you're still on Remeron) would require careful monitoring. It can be done. It's a dose issue.
The neat thing about SJW (in my opinion) is that it has many different modes of action, but none of those actions are intense. What I mean is, none of those effects arise from major changes in brain chemistry/function. It's more like, "A little bit here, and a little bit there." Also, SJW clears rapidly from the body, so if adverse effects do arise, withdrawal occurs quickly.
Still, when you get into combinations, predictablility of the effects is drastically reduced. If you decide to try adding in SJW, just make sure that you are familiar with the early signs of serotonin syndrome, in case it becomes an issue for you, and your unique metabolism.
Lar
Posted by McPac on July 27, 2003, at 23:18:25
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on July 27, 2003, at 9:42:39
TMG will enhance your natural formation of SAMe, via methionine.
>>>>>>>>>>Lar, I suppose it may be a LOT cheaper to just increase the TMG instead of me buying and taking SAM-e....but it seems that a lot of times when you try taking a precursor (i.e. the TMG) instead of the actual 'target' agent (SAM-e) that it doesn't work as well...that something gets 'lost' in the intended conversion process or just doesn't happen as well as it's supposed to.....taking actual SAM-e appears to have a much better effect on me than taking TMG.....is this the correct 'flowchart' by the way---TMG>methionine>Sam-e? (taking the SAM-e appears more effective TO ME than what the TMG & methionine were doing).
>>> I started taking SAM-e recently...is it ok to take SAM-e everyday (or is this not a good idea? i.e., will your body stop making it on its own (or something to that effect?)I have no idea, but it's reasonable that there may be a feedback inhibition of SAMe synthesis if there's a lot of it floating around.
>>>>>>>>>>Lar, how would someone know which supps they were taking had such a feedback inhibition process? It would seem that any time someone took supplements on their own that they may be affecting the body's feedback inhibition process....and when/if they stopped taking the particular supp(s), they could be negatively affected because the body may have stopped or at least curtailed its own production of said supp(s)....which makes me hesitant to 'tinker' much on my own?
Or, add in the "forbidden" supps, one at a time, and see if they do anything.
>>>>>>>>>I LOVE that---the 'forbidden' Pfeiffer supps....lol...it's like Adam & Eve in the garden, only they're reaching for the forbidden folic acid instead of the apple!!!
I appreciate that. The reason I raised the issue at all is that you are paying Pfeiffer for advice that isn't working.
>>>>>>>>>>It may be doing something, although apparently NOT according to their theory....it may be helping but it's definitely NOT because of lowered histamine levels.
All I can offer you is another form of advice. It may or may not be of any value to you, either.
>>>>>>>>>> Your advice is ALWAYS very valuable to me Lar! I've learned a LOT from reading your posts on this board (I save many of them on my 'puter).
Combining SAMe with SJW (and, presumably, while you're still on Remeron) would require careful monitoring. It can be done. It's a dose issue.
>>>>>>>>>>Lar, would SJW cancel out the need(purpose) of taking SAM-e? In other words, take enough SJW (in conjunction with the Remeron of course) and then the SAM-e isn't necessary? Or does SAM-e possess a mood-enhancing effect that SJW does not have? I PREFER to take AS FEW of the "KEY" pills/supps that I can to get the same desired effect (i.e., I'd rather take EITHER choice (1) Remeron + Sjw OR (2) Remeron + SAM-e.
Any thoughts on which combo might be more effective?If you decide to try adding in SJW, just make sure that you are familiar with the early signs of serotonin syndrome, in case it becomes an issue for you, and your unique metabolism.
>>>>>>>>>>>>OK, I understand that.....but wouldn't Remeron + SJW have a VERY low chance of producing serotonin syndrome, since Remeron + an SSRI is allowable? Again Lar, THANKS for all your help! IF I can use Rem/SJW or Rem/SAM-e for my anti-dep. that would be HUGE! Saying adios for good to SSRI's would be a godsend! TAKE CARE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 28, 2003, at 9:59:53
In reply to Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer, posted by McPac on July 27, 2003, at 23:18:25
> TMG will enhance your natural formation of SAMe, via methionine.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>Lar, I suppose it may be a LOT cheaper to just increase the TMG instead of me buying and taking SAM-e....but it seems that a lot of times when you try taking a precursor (i.e. the TMG) instead of the actual 'target' agent (SAM-e) that it doesn't work as well...that something gets 'lost' in the intended conversion process or just doesn't happen as well as it's supposed to.....taking actual SAM-e appears to have a much better effect on me than taking TMG.....Yes, you will certainly over-ride your body's natural limits if you ingest products rather than precursors. If SAMe works better for you, fine. I'm just suggesting alternatives.
>is this the correct 'flowchart' by the way---TMG>methionine>Sam-e? (taking the SAM-e appears more effective TO ME than what the TMG & methionine were doing).
TMG + homocysteine --> DMG + methionine
methionine + adenosine --> S-adenosyl methionine
DMG is dimethylglycine. Where you see the arrows, there are enzymes. Other nutrients will probably affect the enzyme activities.
> >>> I started taking SAM-e recently...is it ok to take SAM-e everyday (or is this not a good idea? i.e., will your body stop making it on its own (or something to that effect?)
>
> I have no idea, but it's reasonable that there may be a feedback inhibition of SAMe synthesis if there's a lot of it floating around.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>Lar, how would someone know which supps they were taking had such a feedback inhibition process? It would seem that any time someone took supplements on their own that they may be affecting the body's feedback inhibition process....and when/if they stopped taking the particular supp(s), they could be negatively affected because the body may have stopped or at least curtailed its own production of said supp(s)....which makes me hesitant to 'tinker' much on my own?There's a difference between taking precursors and products, as I mentioned above. Moreover, nearly all of the supps I mention have the effect of enhancing your body's ability to process precursors. That's what the B-vitamins do. That's what the minerals are for.
I generally do not recommend taking products. I recommend precursors (e.g. DLPA, TMG, fish oil), or what are called enzyme cofactors (e.g. B-vitamins), or substances which are key components of enzymes themselves (e.g. minerals).
> Or, add in the "forbidden" supps, one at a time, and see if they do anything.
>
> >>>>>>>>>I LOVE that---the 'forbidden' Pfeiffer supps....lol...it's like Adam & Eve in the garden, only they're reaching for the forbidden folic acid instead of the apple!!!There are lots of possibilities. Remember, I also suggested dropping some Pfeiffer recommendations. There is an interaction between inositol and lithium, for example. Maybe the combination doesn't suit you.
> I appreciate that. The reason I raised the issue at all is that you are paying Pfeiffer for advice that isn't working.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>It may be doing something, although apparently NOT according to their theory....it may be helping but it's definitely NOT because of lowered histamine levels.Right. What matters is how you feel, not whether their theory has been validated. There are a some fringe theories about the value of eating a super-fresh vegetarian diet, under the argument that there are special "vibrations" in those veggies. However, I doubt the health benefits really arise from vibrations, even if a person is healthier on such a diet.
> All I can offer you is another form of advice. It may or may not be of any value to you, either.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> Your advice is ALWAYS very valuable to me Lar! I've learned a LOT from reading your posts on this board (I save many of them on my 'puter).Please give similar consideration to your own experience. What works or doesn't work for you is not based on my advice. It's based on your own experience.
> Combining SAMe with SJW (and, presumably, while you're still on Remeron) would require careful monitoring. It can be done. It's a dose issue.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>Lar, would SJW cancel out the need(purpose) of taking SAM-e? In other words, take enough SJW (in conjunction with the Remeron of course) and then the SAM-e isn't necessary? Or does SAM-e possess a mood-enhancing effect that SJW does not have?I have no doubt that they have different effects. Whether you will "need" SAMe any longer, with SJW, can only be determined by experiment.
>I PREFER to take AS FEW of the "KEY" pills/supps that I can to get the same desired effect (i.e., I'd rather take EITHER choice (1) Remeron + Sjw OR (2) Remeron + SAM-e.
There's your hypothesis. Do the experiment.
> Any thoughts on which combo might be more effective?
Nope. Though I lean towards SJW.
> If you decide to try adding in SJW, just make sure that you are familiar with the early signs of serotonin syndrome, in case it becomes an issue for you, and your unique metabolism.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>OK, I understand that.....but wouldn't Remeron + SJW have a VERY low chance of producing serotonin syndrome, since Remeron + an SSRI is allowable?Low probability, but not zero. If I've learned anything from discussions on Babble, it's that anything can happen. Anticipating adverse events is part of informed consent, IMHO.
>Again Lar, THANKS for all your help! IF I can use Rem/SJW or Rem/SAM-e for my anti-dep. that would be HUGE! Saying adios for good to SSRI's would be a godsend! TAKE CARE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Get a plan, and give it a try.
Lar
Posted by Sean2003 on July 30, 2003, at 12:34:57
In reply to Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer, posted by McPac on July 27, 2003, at 23:18:25
I was interested to read your postings - i'm on *exactly* the same Pfeiffer regiment (except i added St. John's because i felt i needed it). I haven't gone through my second test results yet - should i even bother?
So far i'm not all that impressed. I submitted my 'monthly report' something like 6 weeks ago which had some questions and concerns and have heard NOTHING. My histamine was high - can't remember the exact # offhand, but not quite as high as yours...also a problem with zinc metabolism...and malabsorption issues according to hair anal. Nurse was talking about adding the $400 stool analysis in the follow-up testing as being beneficial. I don't know what to think. On the one hand it was helpful to actually get some test results rather than haphazardly trying one thing after another on my own...on the other hand, i haven't improved as much as i hoped i would (mainly depression and some OCD stuff)(it's been about 3 months) and their lack of response is really frustrating. BTW do you order your nutrients from their pharmacy or get them on your own? Are you also taking high amounts of calcium/magnesium?
Cheers,
Sean
> TMG will enhance your natural formation of SAMe, via methionine.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>Lar, I suppose it may be a LOT cheaper to just increase the TMG instead of me buying and taking SAM-e....but it seems that a lot of times when you try taking a precursor (i.e. the TMG) instead of the actual 'target' agent (SAM-e) that it doesn't work as well...that something gets 'lost' in the intended conversion process or just doesn't happen as well as it's supposed to.....taking actual SAM-e appears to have a much better effect on me than taking TMG.....is this the correct 'flowchart' by the way---TMG>methionine>Sam-e? (taking the SAM-e appears more effective TO ME than what the TMG & methionine were doing).
>
> >>> I started taking SAM-e recently...is it ok to take SAM-e everyday (or is this not a good idea? i.e., will your body stop making it on its own (or something to that effect?)
>
> I have no idea, but it's reasonable that there may be a feedback inhibition of SAMe synthesis if there's a lot of it floating around.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>Lar, how would someone know which supps they were taking had such a feedback inhibition process? It would seem that any time someone took supplements on their own that they may be affecting the body's feedback inhibition process....and when/if they stopped taking the particular supp(s), they could be negatively affected because the body may have stopped or at least curtailed its own production of said supp(s)....which makes me hesitant to 'tinker' much on my own?
>
> Or, add in the "forbidden" supps, one at a time, and see if they do anything.
>
> >>>>>>>>>I LOVE that---the 'forbidden' Pfeiffer supps....lol...it's like Adam & Eve in the garden, only they're reaching for the forbidden folic acid instead of the apple!!!
>
> I appreciate that. The reason I raised the issue at all is that you are paying Pfeiffer for advice that isn't working.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>It may be doing something, although apparently NOT according to their theory....it may be helping but it's definitely NOT because of lowered histamine levels.
>
> All I can offer you is another form of advice. It may or may not be of any value to you, either.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> Your advice is ALWAYS very valuable to me Lar! I've learned a LOT from reading your posts on this board (I save many of them on my 'puter).
>
> Combining SAMe with SJW (and, presumably, while you're still on Remeron) would require careful monitoring. It can be done. It's a dose issue.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>Lar, would SJW cancel out the need(purpose) of taking SAM-e? In other words, take enough SJW (in conjunction with the Remeron of course) and then the SAM-e isn't necessary? Or does SAM-e possess a mood-enhancing effect that SJW does not have? I PREFER to take AS FEW of the "KEY" pills/supps that I can to get the same desired effect (i.e., I'd rather take EITHER choice (1) Remeron + Sjw OR (2) Remeron + SAM-e.
> Any thoughts on which combo might be more effective?
>
> If you decide to try adding in SJW, just make sure that you are familiar with the early signs of serotonin syndrome, in case it becomes an issue for you, and your unique metabolism.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>OK, I understand that.....but wouldn't Remeron + SJW have a VERY low chance of producing serotonin syndrome, since Remeron + an SSRI is allowable? Again Lar, THANKS for all your help! IF I can use Rem/SJW or Rem/SAM-e for my anti-dep. that would be HUGE! Saying adios for good to SSRI's would be a godsend! TAKE CARE!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
Posted by McPac on July 31, 2003, at 19:57:52
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer, posted by Sean2003 on July 30, 2003, at 12:34:57
Good to hear from you Sean! A fellow Pfeiffer alumni, huh!
I was interested to read your postings - i'm on *exactly* the same Pfeiffer regiment (except i added St. John's because i felt i needed it).
>>>>>>Sean, which meds are you currently taking?
I haven't gone through my second test results yet - should i even bother?
>>>>>>>>Well....after getting my Follow-up test results recently, Pfeiffer did make some changes (they upped the dosage of a few supplements)....I'm going to stick with them (for awhile anyway) to see how things pan out.
So far i'm not all that impressed. I submitted my 'monthly report' something like 6 weeks ago which had some questions and concerns and have heard NOTHING.
>>>>>>>>>> Your monthly 'Progress Reports' right?
Yeah, they won't respond to those in most cases (they read them and keep them in your file there but unless there's a major issue that you raise within the report, they really don't respond to those). You can call them if you need to but be prepared to play "phone tag" with them, lol.My histamine was high - can't remember the exact # offhand, but not quite as high as yours
>>>>>>>>>My recent histamine was 186 (and rising)
...also a problem with zinc metabolism
>>>>>>>>>They've just upped my zinc dosage considerably as my zinc is deficient.
...and malabsorption issues according to hair anal. Nurse was talking about adding the $400 stool analysis in the follow-up testing as being beneficial. I don't know what to think.
>>>>>>>> I wonder which hair results of yours indicated possible malabsorption issues?
On the one hand it was helpful to actually get some test results rather than haphazardly trying one thing after another on my own
>>>>>>>>>>>True!
...on the other hand, i haven't improved as much as i hoped i would (mainly depression and some OCD stuff)(it's been about 3 months)
>>>>>>>>>>I hear ya! Which med(s) you on dude? Is the St.JWort doing ANYTHING at all for you? (how long you been taking that?)
and their lack of response is really frustrating.
>>>>>>>>>> Call them!!
BTW do you order your nutrients from their pharmacy or get them on your own?
>>>>>>>>>>SO FAR, I've ordered most from them...though I have purchased some of their recc'd supps on my own. I AM going to start buying more of the stuff on my own (I'm sure I can probably save a good amount of money by purchasing the stuff on my own....Vitamin Shoppe, here I come!
Are you also taking high amounts of calcium/magnesium?
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, 1000 mg. of EACH.
Take care Sean and keep me informed! Pfeiffer will spend a decent amount of time with you on your Follow-Up Visit (write your questions down and bring them with you to get answers! They will modify your regimen, if needed....let me know which meds you're on, you may get the best and quickest positive effect by adjusting your meds......take care!
Posted by joebob on July 31, 2003, at 22:52:33
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on July 19, 2003, at 7:56:39
Posted by McPac on July 31, 2003, at 23:01:19
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on July 28, 2003, at 9:59:53
Lar,
Hot off the Press.....I just received Pfeiffer's modification of my supplement plan. They did the follow-up testing about a month ago and based on those test results, here are their changes for me:
1) Vitamin B-12(Methyl) INcreased from 2,000 mcg to 5,000 mcg SUBLINGUAL (there's a note which says that they want me to consider B-12 injections....don't know if I will due to fact that I'd have to pay for each injection/dr. visit......do you think that the B-12 injections would really be much better than the sublingual form Lar?
2) TMG has been INcreased from 500 mg to 1400 mg a day (700 mg/2x a day)
3) Vitamin B-5 (Pantothenic Acid) has been added....I was wondering why this wasn't in my regimen from the beginning....the 'anti-stress' vitamin.....500 mg a day
4) SAM-e has been suggested (it says "if helpful") 200-400 mg/2x a day (Total of 400-800 mg/day).....I think I'm going to try SJW instead though (Pfeiffer recc'd SAM-e because they think I'm still on an ssri....since I'm NOT, I'll try SJW instead)
5)Zinc Picolinate has been INcreased from 85 mg to 165 mg (despite taking 85 mg of Zinc for 7 months, my Zinc level FELL from a 96 to a 91 (per Pfeiffer's lab scale)! They say they want my Zinc between 105-130....my ratio of zinc:copper has improved though
6) Methionine INcreased from 2,000 mg to 2,500 mg/day
**ALL other supp's remained the same.........I'll follow this plan and in time I'll see if I can "Feel" a difference....any thoughts compadres?
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 1, 2003, at 10:08:24
In reply to Larry Hoover, (Sean too), Re: Pfeiffer, posted by McPac on July 31, 2003, at 23:01:19
> Lar,
>
> Hot off the Press.....I just received Pfeiffer's modification of my supplement plan. They did the follow-up testing about a month ago and based on those test results, here are their changes for me:
>
> 1) Vitamin B-12(Methyl) INcreased from 2,000 mcg to 5,000 mcg SUBLINGUAL (there's a note which says that they want me to consider B-12 injections....don't know if I will due to fact that I'd have to pay for each injection/dr. visit......do you think that the B-12 injections would really be much better than the sublingual form Lar?Either/or, not both. Regular oral B-12 (i.e. tablets you swallow), at 5,000 mcg/day would be more than adequate. Using sublingual forms would easily exceed the efficacy of the oral form. I can see no reason to consider injections.
> 2) TMG has been INcreased from 500 mg to 1400 mg a day (700 mg/2x a day)
Fine. Just watch for over-stimulation. I'd get insomnia at that dose, but it may be fine for you.
> 3) Vitamin B-5 (Pantothenic Acid) has been added....I was wondering why this wasn't in my regimen from the beginning....the 'anti-stress' vitamin.....500 mg a dayTheir rules are arbitrary, IMHO. I did recommend a B-complex to you already. I don't believe in high doses of individual B's, except when they are on top of a B-complex.
> 4) SAM-e has been suggested (it says "if helpful") 200-400 mg/2x a day (Total of 400-800 mg/day).....I think I'm going to try SJW instead though (Pfeiffer recc'd SAM-e because they think I'm still on an ssri....since I'm NOT, I'll try SJW instead)Sounds good to me.
> 5)Zinc Picolinate has been INcreased from 85 mg to 165 mg (despite taking 85 mg of Zinc for 7 months, my Zinc level FELL from a 96 to a 91 (per Pfeiffer's lab scale)! They say they want my Zinc between 105-130....my ratio of zinc:copper has improved thoughPicolinate? When I researched chromium picolinate a few weeks back, I discovered compelling evidence that picolinic acid has adverse effects. Find a different form of zinc, OK? I use citrate, but I've also used chelated zinc.
It takes months, even years, to get a the zinc/copper ratio adjusted, it you're high copper to begin with.
> 6) Methionine INcreased from 2,000 mg to 2,500 mg/dayWhatever, on that one.
> **ALL other supp's remained the same.........I'll follow this plan and in time I'll see if I can "Feel" a difference....any thoughts compadres?It took me years to fine-tune and adapt to my own supplement regimen. My advice is not to look for a "quick-fix" effect, but instead, a change in long-term trends. We're talking subtle change, which is really very hard to notice, unless you keep a very detailed mood diary, or such.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 1, 2003, at 10:19:03
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer, posted by Sean2003 on July 30, 2003, at 12:34:57
> My histamine was high - can't remember the exact # offhand, but not quite as high as yours...
What a coincidence. I'm starting to feel cynical about Pfeiffer.
>also a problem with zinc metabolism...
Actually, I think zinc deficiency is really quite common.
>and malabsorption issues according to hair anal.
Damn. Gotta watch those anal hairs. <Sorry>
> Nurse was talking about adding the $400 stool analysis in the follow-up testing as being beneficial. I don't know what to think.
Stool analysis for what, in particular? Fat malabsorption leads to steatorrhea (fatty stool). It has quite obvious characteristics, and you could self-diagnose that one. I don't know of any other malabsorption syndrome that requires stool analysis. Parasites might be a problem, but you'd probably be otherwise symptomatic.
> On the one hand it was helpful to actually get some test results rather than haphazardly trying one thing after another on my own...on the other hand, i haven't improved as much as i hoped i would (mainly depression and some OCD stuff)(it's been about 3 months) and their lack of response is really frustrating.
You didn't develop the underlying metabolic changes that promote your psychiatric symptoms overnight, and you will not correct them overnight. You will retain the genetic tendency to the metabolic disturbance, even with supplementation. Not noticing a subtle change/improvement does not mean there isn't one, or that you're not preventing continued decline in functionality.
If you prefer the sledgehammer swat of prescription medication, go for it.
I don't mean to sound contrary. I'm just putting the choice in black and white.
Lar
Posted by McPac on August 1, 2003, at 12:05:21
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, (Sean too), Re: Pfeiffer » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on August 1, 2003, at 10:08:24
Thanks again Lar!
Either/or, not both. Regular oral B-12 (i.e. tablets you swallow), at 5,000 mcg/day would be more than adequate. Using sublingual forms would easily exceed the efficacy of the oral form. I can see no reason to consider injections.
>>>>>>>>>Some folks are said to not absorb B-12 very well at all....which is why (I guess) they're suggesting the sublimgual or injection forms.....so, "IF" I am not absorbing the B12 well at all, you think that enough will be absorbed if I just take a regular 5,000 mcg capsule huh?
Their rules are arbitrary, IMHO. I did recommend a B-complex to you already. I don't believe in high doses of individual B's, except when they are on top of a B-complex.
>>>>>>>> The reason that they say, "No B-Complex" is (as you know, lol) because they don't want me on B3 and folic acid, due to (they say) the fact that they build histamine blah, blah, blah....I don't know whether or not that is true but that's their reasoning.
> 5)Zinc Picolinate has been INcreased from 85 mg to 165 mg (despite taking 85 mg of Zinc for 7 months, my Zinc level FELL from a 96 to a 91 (per Pfeiffer's lab scale)! They say they want my Zinc between 105-130....my ratio of zinc:copper has improved though
Picolinate? When I researched chromium picolinate a few weeks back, I discovered compelling evidence that picolinic acid has adverse effects. Find a different form of zinc, OK? I use citrate, but I've also used chelated zinc.
>>>>>>>>>Yeah, I heard awhile back about chromium picolinate doing DNA damage (or something like that)....so picolinate, no matter what supp (nutrient) it is in, would do the same harm as if it were in chromium (i.e. 'anything picolinate' is not good?)
It takes months, even years, to get the zinc/copper ratio adjusted, it you're high copper to begin with.
>>>>>>>>>> yeah, I've went from a zinc-copper ratio of .80 to .89 in 7 months of treatment so far.
As always, thanks Hooverman!
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 1, 2003, at 15:27:29
In reply to Larry Hoover, (Sean too), Re: Pfeiffer, posted by McPac on August 1, 2003, at 12:05:21
> Thanks again Lar!
>
> Either/or, not both. Regular oral B-12 (i.e. tablets you swallow), at 5,000 mcg/day would be more than adequate. Using sublingual forms would easily exceed the efficacy of the oral form. I can see no reason to consider injections.
>
> >>>>>>>>>Some folks are said to not absorb B-12 very well at all....which is why (I guess) they're suggesting the sublimgual or injection forms.....so, "IF" I am not absorbing the B12 well at all, you think that enough will be absorbed if I just take a regular 5,000 mcg capsule huh?Even a few years ago, "conventional wisdom" had it that people who didn't absorb B-12 due to a lack of what is called intrinsic factor had to have B-12 injections to avoid pernicious anemia. Well, when somebody actually gave oral B-12 to people who shouldn't be able to absorb it, guess what they found? Lo and behold, those people absorbed some anyway. Not as much as those with intrinsic factor, but enough to supply basic needs. The daily requirement for B-12 is said to be on the order of 6 or 8 micrograms. If even 1% of the 5,000 mcg you're taking is absorbed, you'll take in 50 mcg. I personally think that 6 or 8 micrograms is inadequate for optimal functioning, but passive absorption (in the total absence of intrinsic factor) is generally accepted to be about 3% of dose, so you'd get at least 150 mcg (based on 5,000 mcg available). Sublingual absorption would be greater than that.
> Their rules are arbitrary, IMHO. I did recommend a B-complex to you already. I don't believe in high doses of individual B's, except when they are on top of a B-complex.
>
> >>>>>>>> The reason that they say, "No B-Complex" is (as you know, lol) because they don't want me on B3 and folic acid, due to (they say) the fact that they build histamine blah, blah, blah....I don't know whether or not that is true but that's their reasoning.I think their arguments are simplistic. In any case, your own levels have risen, despite the advice they have given you.
> > 5)Zinc Picolinate has been INcreased from 85 mg to 165 mg (despite taking 85 mg of Zinc for 7 months, my Zinc level FELL from a 96 to a 91 (per Pfeiffer's lab scale)! They say they want my Zinc between 105-130....my ratio of zinc:copper has improved though
>
> Picolinate? When I researched chromium picolinate a few weeks back, I discovered compelling evidence that picolinic acid has adverse effects. Find a different form of zinc, OK? I use citrate, but I've also used chelated zinc.
>
> >>>>>>>>>Yeah, I heard awhile back about chromium picolinate doing DNA damage (or something like that)....so picolinate, no matter what supp (nutrient) it is in, would do the same harm as if it were in chromium (i.e. 'anything picolinate' is not good?)The DNA damage was only associated with chromium picolinate, not other forms of chromium. Picolinate (the salt of picolinic acid) is the culprit.
> It takes months, even years, to get the zinc/copper ratio adjusted, it you're high copper to begin with.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> yeah, I've went from a zinc-copper ratio of .80 to .89 in 7 months of treatment so far.You can probably block a substantial source of copper intake by always running the tap for 2 minutes before you collect water that will be used for food preparation or drinking. That's assuming you have copper plumbing.
> As always, thanks Hooverman!As always, you're welcome.
Lar
Posted by David Smith on August 2, 2003, at 22:43:58
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer » Sean2003, posted by Larry Hoover on August 1, 2003, at 10:19:03
"If you prefer the sledgehammer swat of prescription medication,
go for it."I just heard the most distressing speech.
It concerns the use of serotinergic drugs and their effects on the body.
I wonder what you folks think of it?
Try clicking on the second part of Dr. Ann Blake Tracy's lecture:http://www.3sistersapothecary.com/html/resources/audio.cfm
Thanks for any feedback.
dave
p.s. I am asking because once again I am questioning
whether I should continue my meds.
Posted by David Smith on August 2, 2003, at 23:32:46
In reply to If you prefer the sledgehammer .... » Larry Hoover, posted by David Smith on August 2, 2003, at 22:43:58
> "If you prefer the sledgehammer swat of prescription medication,
> go for it."
>
> I just heard the most distressing speech.
> It concerns the use of serotinergic drugs and their effects on the body.
> I wonder what you folks think of it?
> Try clicking on the second part of Dr. Ann Blake Tracy's lecture:
>
> http://www.3sistersapothecary.com/html/resources/audio.cfm
>
> Thanks for any feedback.
>
> dave
>
> p.s. I am asking because once again I am questioning
> whether I should continue my meds.Sorry about that post. It sounds like a commercial. The speech suggests that serotonin is actually toxic to the body and that we should not be blocking its absorption or increasing its production.
I guess I'm having an "off" day. Thanks anyway.
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 3, 2003, at 6:35:49
In reply to If you prefer the sledgehammer .... » Larry Hoover, posted by David Smith on August 2, 2003, at 22:43:58
> "If you prefer the sledgehammer swat of prescription medication,
> go for it."That was rather harsh rhetoric. Nutritional supplementation seldom leads to drastic or sudden changes in functionality. It's subtle. It's gentle. It may appear to do nothing at all. But I don't believe it does nothing (that's a philosophical statement). I think that supplementation can create an upwards trend in functionality, which can only be properly assessed over extended periods of time. To borrow from Narcotics Anonymous, "You didn't become sick in one day, so easy does it."
Psychotropic medications are designed to have profound effects. That's the whole point, it seems to me. And they have their place.
I would never recommend that anyone discontinue meds to try supplements. I've needed meds, and I've used them. And when I think about it, it's the times I've been on meds that I needed them, ya know? Whether that time has passed for you is an important question to answer.
I was trying to emphasize one particular difference between supplementation and medication, i.e. gentle, perhaps unnoticeable improvement vs. immediate and profound effects/side-effects.
> I just heard the most distressing speech.
> It concerns the use of serotinergic drugs and their effects on the body.
> I wonder what you folks think of it?When I get a chance, I'll have a go at listening to it.
> Try clicking on the second part of Dr. Ann Blake Tracy's lecture:
>
> http://www.3sistersapothecary.com/html/resources/audio.cfm
>
> Thanks for any feedback.
>
> dave
>
> p.s. I am asking because once again I am questioning
> whether I should continue my meds.I hope you make a decision like that only after a good deal of reflection and planning. By planning, I mean things like ensuring supervision by a competent observer. Someone who can objectively assess how you're doing, and provide immediate support/treatment, if necessary.
Lar
Posted by David Smith on August 3, 2003, at 21:48:43
In reply to Re: If you prefer the sledgehammer .... » David Smith, posted by Larry Hoover on August 3, 2003, at 6:35:49
That was just what I needed to hear. Thank you.
I apologize for taking your quote out of context.
You have always been balanced in your responses.Regarding the hyperlink, you may want to take a pass on that.
You seem pretty busy and I don't want to take anymore of your time.I have a new GP who seems to be on the ball and I will consult with her regularly. Thanks again for your concern.
Dav
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