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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by McPac on June 5, 2003, at 16:37:59
stabilizer was discontinued?
Any bipolars here ever went off their mood stabilizers? If so, did ANGER, TEMPER, IRRITABILITY and AGITATION problems return?
Do most bipolars have terrible anger/temper/irrit. problems as part of their illness?
I'm trying to determine whether my anger/temper problems are due to a possible bipolar condition OR if it's caused by taking ssri's! Thanks!
Posted by Squiggles on June 5, 2003, at 16:55:09
In reply to Bipolars---would you go nuts if your mood , posted by McPac on June 5, 2003, at 16:37:59
Hello MacPac,
I went off my lithium many years ago, (maybe
12), and i did so without my dr.'s knowledge.
I was off for 3 months, and as i recall, i
lost about 40 lbs., did not feel that ill,
had quite a bit of anxiety and panickiness,
and at the end of the 3rd month started getting
a bit depressed. I went back on the lithium
in case things got worse.However, recently, when i stopped the lithium
for only about 3 consecutive days, i had severe
withdrawal, very much like the clonazepam withdrawal,
including an out of control feeling and terrible
headache, insomnia, and irritability.I don't know why the time frame made a difference.
Before i ever started lithium, i did have
periods of anger, among other things.So, i suppose it could be SSRI or it could be
BP, but you would have to ask more people.Squiggles
Posted by McPac on June 5, 2003, at 17:05:52
In reply to Re: Bipolars---would you go nuts if your mood » McPac, posted by Squiggles on June 5, 2003, at 16:55:09
(nm)
Posted by whiterabbit on June 5, 2003, at 17:47:03
In reply to Re: Bipolars---would you go nuts if your mood » McPac, posted by Squiggles on June 5, 2003, at 16:55:09
After 6 months of feeling half-dead on 500 mg of Depakote daily, I decided to "go clean" - I stopped seeing my pdoc and threw my Depakote and Seroquel away. Three days and NO sleep later, sick with exhaustion, I dug the Seroquel out of the bathroom trashcan...I had just had to sleep, I had to. After the Seroquel ran out, the insomnia returned full-force and I began to experience panic attacks for the first time. I was definately in withdrawal...I felt like someone had taken my head and screwed it around on my neck a bunch of times like the propeller on one of those old-fashioned balsawood airplanes.
I became such a mess, I walked into a psychiatrist's office, someplace I had never been before, and begged the receptionist to have someone see me without an appointment. When she said that wasn't possible and told me to go to the emergency room, I wailed, "I already did that and they told me to come here!" (which was the truth - they gave me one Xanax and sent me away)and started bawling right there in the waiting room.NEVER NEVER stop taking those psychiatric drugs without medical supervision. I can't believe how stupid I was to do such a thing.
In case you're interested in the rest of the story, one of the doctors was kind enough to see me right away and got me started on a fairly high dosage of Seroquel (first 200 mg and later 300).
Although I was a little offended to be prescribed an anti-psychotic because I didn't consider myself to be psychotic (which is untrue - later I found out that when I went to the ER during my panic attack, I told the doctor that I was so wound up because I had to shoot my dog. I've never shot my dog and I don't remember saying this), the Seroquel saved my life. I was able to calm down, start sleeping, and the panic attacks and horrible anxiety went away.Interestingly, although I've been diagnosed as
bipolar, I was never prescribed another mood stabalizer after the Depakote. I did continue to have serious bouts of depression before I was started on Paxil, and occasionally I take 25 mg
tabs of Seroquel for mania/anxiety (because of my drug abuse history, nobody will give me benzos)
and it works quite well.
-Gracie
Posted by Snoozy on June 5, 2003, at 18:10:17
In reply to Re: Bipolars---would you go nuts if your mood, posted by whiterabbit on June 5, 2003, at 17:47:03
I would think that being severely sleep deprived can cause psychosis, or perhaps more accurately psychosis symptoms.
I mean, there must be a reason sleep deprivation is used as an instrument of torture!
> Although I was a little offended to be prescribed an anti-psychotic because I didn't consider myself to be psychotic (which is untrue - later I found out that when I went to the ER during my panic attack, I told the doctor that I was so wound up because I had to shoot my dog. I've never shot my dog and I don't remember saying this), the Seroquel saved my life. I was able to calm down, start sleeping, and the panic attacks and horrible anxiety went away.
>
> Interestingly, although I've been diagnosed as
> bipolar, I was never prescribed another mood stabalizer after the Depakote. I did continue to have serious bouts of depression before I was started on Paxil, and occasionally I take 25 mg
> tabs of Seroquel for mania/anxiety (because of my drug abuse history, nobody will give me benzos)
> and it works quite well.
> -Gracie
Posted by whiterabbit on June 5, 2003, at 19:08:28
In reply to Re: Bipolars---would you go nuts if your mood » whiterabbit, posted by Snoozy on June 5, 2003, at 18:10:17
I'm sure you're right, by that time I was seriously sleep-deprived and just a train-wreck of a person. I probably should have been admitted
but I think the ER doctor dismissed me as a Xanax
junkie, which is untrue. I'm not denying drug abuse but possibly because of my ADHD, Xanax never had much effect on me.
-Gracie
Posted by Squiggles on June 5, 2003, at 20:31:28
In reply to Re: Bipolars---would you go nuts if your mood, posted by whiterabbit on June 5, 2003, at 17:47:03
Gosh Gracie,
That post was a public service.
I hope everyone is listening. Many good wishes
to your dog.Squiggles
Posted by whiterabbit on June 5, 2003, at 21:22:40
In reply to Re: Bipolars---would you go nuts if your mood » whiterabbit, posted by Squiggles on June 5, 2003, at 20:31:28
I've been quite humbled by my experience with mental illness and psychiatric treatment (unfortunately, there's a lot more to the story than what I covered in my post). I probably made every single mistake you can make with psych meds
and came very close to dying at least twice.You can't fool around with the stuff, these drugs are serious business and I have a hard-earned respect for both their damaging and incredible healing capabilities. The road to recovery is hard and long, but there IS a road.
Best wishes - Gracie
P.S. The dog is fine.
Posted by Ritch on June 6, 2003, at 1:14:58
In reply to Bipolars---would you go nuts if your mood , posted by McPac on June 5, 2003, at 16:37:59
> stabilizer was discontinued?
>
> Any bipolars here ever went off their mood stabilizers? If so, did ANGER, TEMPER, IRRITABILITY and AGITATION problems return?
> Do most bipolars have terrible anger/temper/irrit. problems as part of their illness?
> I'm trying to determine whether my anger/temper problems are due to a possible bipolar condition OR if it's caused by taking ssri's! Thanks!
What happens if you back off the SSRI's? You might want to explore that one first-it would be simpler to do. I went off lithium for about two years after being on it for ten years once and the main problem was very bad depressions. No major irritability though-but got very high during the usual part of the year that is a trouble. I would call up people I hadn't talked to for awhile and talk nonstop until they hung up on me! ;)
Posted by cybercafe on June 6, 2003, at 1:29:56
In reply to Re: Bipolars---would you go nuts if your mood » McPac, posted by Ritch on June 6, 2003, at 1:14:58
>trouble. I would call up people I hadn't talked to for awhile and talk nonstop until they hung up on me! ;)
>what?! that's a symptom of mania? no dude... i think that's just being social <ponders recent behaviour>
Posted by dddiane on June 6, 2003, at 6:54:08
In reply to Bipolars---would you go nuts if your mood , posted by McPac on June 5, 2003, at 16:37:59
Everyone's bipolar has a different manifestation. I can say for sure if I was deprived of my mood stablizers I would be come angry, irritible, irrational, and possibly violent. If I even lower the doseage, I find myself ready to argue with anyone or anything! In general I pride myself on my long fuse - but once I was trying to cut back on my Tegretol, and I found myself screaming at a woman in a parking lot! I wanted to beat her up! Needless to say, I went back to my regular dose of Tegretol after that outburst. I didn't like to see myself turn into a "fishwife".
This has nothing to do with antidepressant use, since I can't and don't use antidepressants. They seriously wind the key in my back, if you know what I mean.
Who I am without mood stablizers, and I mean specificly AEDs, has been my motivation to stay medication compliate for years. It is just too ugly otherwise.
Also, without AEDs my thinking becomes highly disorganized. It is difficult to read, and sometimes to drive, or even understand what people are saying to me. I just remember how it was before my dx, and before medication. Sometimes my thinking was so very clear and sharp, and other times simple thinking was a challege. My mind was either moving so fast or so slow.
So my answer is yes, I would go nuts!
Diane
Posted by Ritch on June 6, 2003, at 10:27:30
In reply to Re: Bipolars---would you go nuts if your mood, posted by cybercafe on June 6, 2003, at 1:29:56
Posted by starlight on June 6, 2003, at 15:19:56
In reply to The lore of talked-off legs----- (nm) » cybercafe, posted by Ritch on June 6, 2003, at 10:27:30
I've wondered about that. I knew that going off of AD's would give you a horrible reaction, but didn't know about anti convulsants. I figured that if you were in the throws of depression or mania that it would have an effect, but even if you're stable underneath (if that's possible)?
Starlight
Posted by linkadge on June 6, 2003, at 19:51:12
In reply to Bipolars---would you go nuts if your mood , posted by McPac on June 5, 2003, at 16:37:59
What seems to be the source of your anger. If you have a simple anger stemming from a "lack of confidence" in yourself, it is likely depression.
But if your anger seems linked with an "extreme confidence". Or if you are annoyed with the world because it "doesn't understand you", or "doesn't understand just how smart you are". If you feel that you are so much higher or so far beyond the average person and you are angry that you are recognized as such, it is likely bipolar anger.
Linkadge
Posted by McPac on June 6, 2003, at 23:50:21
In reply to Re: Bipolars---would you go nuts if your mood » McPac, posted by Ritch on June 6, 2003, at 1:14:58
What happens if you back off the SSRI's?
>>>>>>>>I can't drop the ssri because I need it for ocd.....that really "ties my hands".
I've been on lithium before for years with no anti-dep. I needed something to "lift my spirits" though...the lithium alone wasn't enough to lift them enough....and my ocd was much worse w/out the srri.
Posted by McPac on June 7, 2003, at 0:23:26
In reply to Read, posted by linkadge on June 6, 2003, at 19:51:12
What seems to be the source of your anger?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Neither of the scenarios you mentioned. Rather, I'm trying to determine if it is because I'm bipolar (is it hypomanic anger) OR is it a reaction to meds? OR, possibly some of EACH---hypomanic symptoms AND a bad reaction to meds?
I KNOW for a FACT that Prozac caused TERRIBLE anger in me! The anger vanished after I stopped it (tried it twice, the exact same effect both times, TERRIBLE anger). Now, get this...when I take my lithium and Zoloft at the same time, I only get occassional anger, not too bad....but when I stopped taking the lithium and stayed on the Zoloft alone, TERRIBLE, DREADFUL anger....with the Prozac, EVEN ON lithium the anger was TERRIBLE---but, as I said, it started only when I started the Prozac and it disappeared as soon as I stopped the Prozac.....so, right now, I'm on lithium AND Zoloft...IF I stopped taking the lithium, AND STAYED on the Zoloft, I'd go NUTS! ANGER/RAGE!! How do I know? Because I already DID try that! So am I a bipolar who is having bipolar-like anger if I stop my mood stabilizer...OR, do I just have terrible reactions to some meds?
Posted by Ritch on June 7, 2003, at 0:42:23
In reply to Re: The lore of talked-off legs-----, posted by starlight on June 6, 2003, at 15:19:56
> I've wondered about that. I knew that going off of AD's would give you a horrible reaction, but didn't know about anti convulsants. I figured that if you were in the throws of depression or mania that it would have an effect, but even if you're stable underneath (if that's possible)?
> StarlightStarlight--Lithium isn't an anticonvulsant. If anything it lowers the seizure threshold and makes seizures more likely. But it doesn't matter-antimanics are a day to day reality that can't go ignored or trouble will happen.
Posted by Ritch on June 7, 2003, at 0:44:43
In reply to Ritch, Re: Bipolars---would you go nuts if your , posted by McPac on June 6, 2003, at 23:50:21
> What happens if you back off the SSRI's?
>
> >>>>>>>>I can't drop the ssri because I need it for ocd.....that really "ties my hands".
> I've been on lithium before for years with no anti-dep. I needed something to "lift my spirits" though...the lithium alone wasn't enough to lift them enough....and my ocd was much worse w/out the srri.
>
>
>I hear you on that one! I need a serotonergic med to keep anxiety/panic under control. I just can't handle anywhere near the dosages most people take for those problems however. Pharm. companies need to tool up the baby pills for people like us. They might even make some money.
Posted by Squiggles on June 7, 2003, at 7:05:45
In reply to Re: The lore of talked-off legs----- » starlight, posted by Ritch on June 7, 2003, at 0:42:23
Are you sure lithium lowers the seizure
threshold -- does it mean that lithium
over the "therapeutic index" is likely
to induce seizures?Thanks
Squiggles
Posted by Ritch on June 7, 2003, at 11:00:46
In reply to Re: The lore of talked-off legs----- » Ritch, posted by Squiggles on June 7, 2003, at 7:05:45
> Are you sure lithium lowers the seizure
> threshold -- does it mean that lithium
> over the "therapeutic index" is likely
> to induce seizures?
>
> Thanks
>
> SquigglesHi, yes it lowers the seizure threshold. It doesn't do it like a lot of antidepressants can do however, from what I understand. Oh, just because your "seizure threshold" has been lowered a little isn't anything horrible really-a lot of meds can do that. I'm not absolutely sure, but it seems likely that as the serum lithium level rises the seizure threshold falls accordingly. Don't know how "linear" that relationship is, though. High serum levels are likely to make you feel crummy and give you diarrhea or something rather than cause a seizure. But the risk is there.
Posted by Squiggles on June 7, 2003, at 11:05:38
In reply to Re: The lore of talked-off legs----- » Squiggles, posted by Ritch on June 7, 2003, at 11:00:46
Thank you Ritch; i will have to
do some reading on this for my site;Whimper :-)
Squiggles
Posted by judy1 on June 7, 2003, at 11:46:05
In reply to Bipolars---would you go nuts if your mood , posted by McPac on June 5, 2003, at 16:37:59
I have posted many times how I medicate manic episodes, but otherwise I do not take any mood stabilizers. My manic episodes tend to be euphoric, however when I took SSRIs the cycling was out of control and I did experience the mixed variety (those are awful). I'm a real advocate of people suffering from bipolar disorder not to use SSRIs- I really do think they make things worse (and my pdoc agrees). best of luck in whatever you decide-judy
Posted by cybercafe on June 7, 2003, at 15:24:05
In reply to Re: Bipolars---would you go nuts if your mood » McPac, posted by judy1 on June 7, 2003, at 11:46:05
> I have posted many times how I medicate manic episodes, but otherwise I do not take any mood stabilizers. My manic episodes tend to be euphoric, however when I took SSRIs the cycling was out of control and I did experience the mixed variety (those are awful). I'm a real advocate of people suffering from bipolar disorder not to use SSRIs- I really do think they make things worse (and my pdoc agrees). best of luck in whatever you decide-judy
fair enough.... what would you recommend as an antidepressant?
Posted by McPac on June 7, 2003, at 16:27:52
In reply to Re: Bipolars---would you go nuts if your mood » McPac, posted by judy1 on June 7, 2003, at 11:46:05
Hi Judy,
" I'm a real advocate of people suffering from bipolar disorder not to use SSRIs">>>>>>>>>>>> I really have no choice....I need to take an ssri for my ocd (there really is VERY little else to choose from for severe ocd). Thanks
Posted by Ritch on June 7, 2003, at 17:07:37
In reply to judy,Re: Bipolars---would you go nuts if your mood, posted by McPac on June 7, 2003, at 16:27:52
> Hi Judy,
>
>
> " I'm a real advocate of people suffering from bipolar disorder not to use SSRIs"
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I really have no choice....I need to take an ssri for my ocd (there really is VERY little else to choose from for severe ocd). Thanks
I'm in a similar boat. I have to take a little bit of Effexor to keep my comorbid panic disorder under control. It only takes a tiny pinch, but I have to take it. I've been off them and after about two months or so it starts getting worse and more clonazepam just makes me depressed (to keep a lid on the panic). The other serotonergics did make me very goofy acting though, especially Celexa and Luvox for some reason. They would cause the worst hyena-like laughing spells I've ever experienced. :)
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