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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by indanone on April 19, 2003, at 13:45:03
Five years ago, over a six month period, I consumed ~150 capsules of MDMA sometimes taking up to 5 pills in an evening. About 1 year later, I started developing neurological problems such as difficulty concentrating, extremely reduced short-term memory, head-aches, blurred vision, depression. When I close my eyes, it feels like my brain is twitching. Doctors have found nothing wrong with me. I have no history of mental illness and I am not taking any medications.
It has been nearly 4 years of living in a very painful mental state and my brain does not appear to be healing itself. I am 25, I have many years to live but cannot go on living like this.
Please contact me if you believe that you have suffered the same fate as me. Maybe, through discussion, we can help each other out.
Posted by linkadge on April 19, 2003, at 15:11:45
In reply to MDMA-induced brain damage, posted by indanone on April 19, 2003, at 13:45:03
Hows it going,
I have had similar problems, but they have
been induced by severe stress. The good new
is that does improve.MDMA is neurotoxic and it does destroy serotonin
neurons. Why these problems have manifest themselves a year later I am not sure.The most widely studied research in brain regeneration has been done on a substance called: Brain Derived Neurotrophic Facor or BDNF. THis substance is most abundant in childhood and seems to wain afterwards. It is the reason children
can easily recover from major brain surgery.
All I am trying to say is that the brain
has the ability to repair itself. MDMA is
not the only neurotoxin. Studies show that
stress itself, in the form of cortisol can be equally as toxic.
This is what I would recomend:Excercise as much as possible, this is
probably the most effective way a person
can raise their levels of BDNF.Supplement with Fish Oil. Omega 3 in fish
oil is another brain repairing substance.Stay away from MDMA. If you
must drug, Pot's your safest choice.IF symptoms such as depression, and concentration problems don't improve, then it may be
time to see a psychiartist.Don't rule out the possibility that you were
suffering depression before you took MDMA.
Mentally healthy people can easily resist the urge to take illegal drugs. You may say "they don't know what they're missing" but the truth to the matter is that if you feel that susceptable, you probably don't know what you're missing.
Take Heart
The brain can repair itself.
A dude with a tumor at birth had over %80 (by weight) of his brain removed. He graduated from university (physics I believe)
never found out till he was 35 that he had the operation.
Linkadge
Posted by indanone on April 19, 2003, at 15:30:53
In reply to Re: MDMA-induced brain damage, posted by linkadge on April 19, 2003, at 15:11:45
Hey Linkadge,
I really appreciate you taking the time to reply to my post. I have been exercising a few days a week but would like to try to, at least exercise briefly, everyday. Also, I will try out the shark oil. Regarding the reason I did all the drugs: I'm still puzzled. Their was nothing in my life at the time that I was trying to escape from. I just got caught up in the moment and (unfortunately) became friends with a chemist who was making lots of ecstacy. The irony is that now, I am pursuing, a PhD in Chemistry. Although, I plan on using it to pursue less clandestine ventures. I no longer do MDMA at all, I dirnk in moderation and smoke pot occasionally.
Spread the word though: ecstacy, at least used excessively, will cause brain damage. The length of the damage, lets hope, is not forever.
Posted by linkadge on April 19, 2003, at 17:06:51
In reply to Re: MDMA-induced brain damage, posted by indanone on April 19, 2003, at 15:30:53
Not shark oil but fish oil or salmon oil.
The active ingredient you're looking for
is omega-3. You can, for example buy omega
3 enriched egss at the supermarket.
Fish oil capsules contain a high amount of
omega 3 (which is one of the primary fats found in
the brain) (it aids learning and nerve growth)Many people on this site suplement with
fish oil capsules, for their antidepressive and
mood stabalizing effects.
Good LuckLinkadge
Posted by stjames on April 19, 2003, at 20:08:31
In reply to Re: MDMA-induced brain damage, posted by linkadge on April 19, 2003, at 15:11:45
> MDMA is neurotoxic and it does destroy serotonin
> neurons. Why these problems have manifest themselves a year later I am not sure.Actually, MDMA causes changes to serotonin
neurons, only. No destruction. Overheating
while on MDMA is what fries the neurons.
If there was destruction the problems would
happen at once.
>
> The most widely studied research in brain regeneration has been done on a substance called: Brain Derived Neurotrophic Facor or BDNF. THis substance is most abundant in childhood and seems to wain afterwards. It is the reason children
> can easily recover from major brain surgery.AD's increase this Factor, and should be a part of recovery from porblems with MDMA.
Posted by btnd on April 19, 2003, at 22:07:55
In reply to Re: MDMA-induced brain damage, posted by stjames on April 19, 2003, at 20:08:31
You should definitely try Piracetam. It helps with concentration, brain damage and many other things.Check out these links for more info:
http://www.piracetam.info
http://members.aol.com/profchm/piracetam.html
Posted by stjames on April 19, 2003, at 23:47:29
In reply to Re: MDMA-induced brain damage, posted by indanone on April 19, 2003, at 15:30:53
> Spread the word though: ecstacy, at least used excessively, will cause brain damage. The length of the damage, lets hope, is not forever.
>The research on it does not indicate this
and I did hundreds of MDMA doses in the 1980's
without long term incident.
Posted by Stacey fu on April 21, 2003, at 1:44:20
In reply to Re: MDMA-induced brain damage, posted by stjames on April 19, 2003, at 23:47:29
> > Spread the word though: ecstacy, at least used excessively, will cause brain damage. The length of the damage, lets hope, is not forever.
> >
>
> The research on it does not indicate this
> and I did hundreds of MDMA doses in the 1980's
> without long term incident.Let's not forget the many people that have fried their brains, died, or are living, but in deep depression or suffering from anxiety because of ecstacy use. It's a beautiful drug but it is NOT to be underestimated when it comes to it's negative effects. No long term effects? Tell that to the mother whose son will spend the rest of HER life in a coffin.
>
>
Posted by stjames on April 21, 2003, at 10:48:30
In reply to Re: MDMA-induced brain damage, posted by Stacey fu on April 21, 2003, at 1:44:20
> Let's not forget the many people that have fried their brains, died, or are living, but in deep depression or suffering from anxiety because of ecstacy use. It's a beautiful drug but it is NOT to be underestimated when it comes to it's negative effects. No long term effects? Tell that to the mother whose son will spend the rest of HER life in a coffin.
Lets get our facts straight. Many have not died from MDMA. Some have died from hyperthermia.
Posted by stjames on April 21, 2003, at 11:22:33
In reply to Re: MDMA-induced brain damage, posted by stjames on April 21, 2003, at 10:48:30
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_faq.shtml
Health Risks
Although some research has assessed toxic and lethal doses in animals, little is known about MDMA's potential toxicity for humans. A few deaths have been associated with the use of MDMA, but its role as a causative factor in each case remains uncertain. As of April, 1986 20 emergency room incidents for MDMA had been listed in the federal government's Drug Abuse Warning Network (DAWN). Ignorance of the substance undoubtedly contributes to underreporting. However, the number of mentions still appears to be rather low when compared with the suspected extent of use described by Siegel and the DEA.
MDMA has been associated with relatively few overdoses or deaths. However, it's neurotoxic potential is cause for concern. Acute and chronic problems are most often associated with the repeated use of high dosages. Generally, the side effects of MDMA are similar to those of amphetamine. MDMA also appears to exert an adverse action on the immunological response of some individuals, particularly with heavy use. Long-term users often describe increasingly uncomfortable and prolonged "burn-out" periods, sometimes lasting two or more days. Many individuals have also reported an increased susceptibility to various ailments, particularly sore throats, colds, flus, and herpes outbreaks. It should be noted that these reactions appear to be rare in novice users and individuals in good physical and mental health.
Based on the limited information available, researchers have identified the following medical conditions as possible contraindications to MDMA use: diabetes, diminished liver function, epilepsy, glaucoma, heart disease, hypertension, hypoglycemia, hyperthyroidism and pregnancy.
Infrequent psychological problems have been associated with the use of MDMA. Rare episodes of hyperventilation have been noted, but this phase is transitory. In addition, problems occur for some individuals who, in attempts at self-therapy, run the risk of exacerbating their emotional problems with unsupervised episodes.
Among individuals who have tried both MDMA and cocaine, Beck found that the majority usually express a strong preference for MDMA which would suggest a high abuse potential. However, in sharp contrast to cocaine, there appear to be relatively few cases of what might be considered serious abuse of MDMA.
Excessive use is probably self limiting in that frequent use of MDMA always produces a strong dysphoric (unpleasant) reaction, that is only increased with continued use. In addition, frequent use produces an almost total loss of the desired actions with a greater rapidity and intensity than with other more commonly abused substances.
Conclusion
Media accounts and substance abuse professionals often dismiss MDMA as a short-term fad. However, the perceived therapeutic and/or euphoric effects combined with the ease with which MDMA is usually experienced can be expected to attract new users. The danger in this regard is the uncertain potential for abuse. In addition, there are potentially severe health risks associated with MDMA and probable contraindications. This is particularly true with repeated use of high dosages which may lead to acute or chronic medical and psychological problems. Unfortunately, our current knowledge regarding nearly every aspect of MDMA is extremely limited and based almost exclusively on anecdotal data. Research is obviously needed to better determine the potential risks of a substance which is rapidly establishing itself in our drug culture.
Posted by linkadge on April 21, 2003, at 19:19:41
In reply to Re: MDMA-induced brain damage, posted by stjames on April 21, 2003, at 11:22:33
MDMA does indeed damage the brain.
Unlike reputake inhibitors, MDMA
(the Amphetamine Derivitive of Mescalin)
displaces Serotonin and Dopamine
from the axon terminal. In experiments
with high enough doses the serotonin
synapses apear to corkscrew and die.They've known this since the 80's
May I suggest reading "Drugs and the Brain"
by Solomon H. Snyder.In this book it describes a process wherin
dopamine and serotonin supplies are excausted
producing a low grade crash the next day.
If the dose is repeated to prevent this
crash the next day, the high will be lower
and the dammage will be greater.You have to remember that the termnials maintain their integrity by holding adequate levels of the neurotrasmitters. If the chemical that displaces Serotonin (in this case MDMA) does not share the same protective properties as serotonin itself (which MDMA does not) then dammage is likely to follow.
Why do you think people started this whole
prozac Neuroprotection system?http://www.mdma.net/protect/prozac.html
The only reason that this dammage has not
been seen in humans..Is because they have
to cut the brain open to see it.
Lets face it
If they could accurately test the toxisity
of psychoative drugs on humans then they
would not use rats in the first place.
Linkadge
Posted by djmmm on April 21, 2003, at 20:25:42
In reply to That research is old news., posted by linkadge on April 21, 2003, at 19:19:41
> MDMA does indeed damage the brain.
> Unlike reputake inhibitors, MDMA
> (the Amphetamine Derivitive of Mescalin)
> displaces Serotonin and Dopamine
> from the axon terminal. In experiments
> with high enough doses the serotonin
> synapses apear to corkscrew and die.
>
> They've known this since the 80's
>
I think MDMA is an Phenethylamine-empathogen, a substituted amphetamine, and has no hallucinogenic properties, the related compound MDA is somewhat hallucinogenicfood for thought..MDMA injected directly into the bran attenuates, and often causes no neurotoxicity..
the corkscrew shaped neurons are caused by the degredation of Dopamine with in serotonin axon terminals...serotonin neurons will take in dopamine is serotonin is not available.
>
> May I suggest reading "Drugs and the Brain"
> by Solomon H. Snyder.
>
> In this book it describes a process wherin
> dopamine and serotonin supplies are excausted
> producing a low grade crash the next day.
> If the dose is repeated to prevent this
> crash the next day, the high will be lower
> and the dammage will be greater.
>true for some, however I believe Alexander Shulgin, who brought this antiquated molecule back, found that on the 4th day of consecutive use, the effects were similar to amphetamine.
> You have to remember that the termnials maintain their integrity by holding adequate levels of the neurotrasmitters. If the chemical that displaces Serotonin (in this case MDMA) does not share the same protective properties as serotonin itself (which MDMA does not) then dammage is likely to follow.
this brings to mind fenfloramine, and the years of research showing the same damage as MDMA...yet the FDA decides to weigh the Pro's and con's, and allow it to be used daily for extendedd periods of time....
>
> Why do you think people started this whole
> prozac Neuroprotection system?
>
> http://www.mdma.net/protect/prozac.html
>
>
>
> The only reason that this dammage has not
> been seen in humans..Is because they have
> to cut the brain open to see it.and MDMA users are typically Poly-drug users
>
>
> Lets face it
> If they could accurately test the toxisity
> of psychoative drugs on humans then they
> would not use rats in the first place.true, but we must take into account, the dose/weight ratio...and on the pro-neurotoxic side, adulterants (DXM MPTP, etc)
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by stjames on April 22, 2003, at 1:33:14
In reply to Re: That research is old news., posted by djmmm on April 21, 2003, at 20:25:42
I know far to may who did far too much X in the 1980's who are not fried today. However, I am not
saying MDMA is without effect. There is no question of the short term disruption of neurology, as there is with any amphetamine abuse.
In all the tests I see the doses are huge and the test subjects (animals) have far less complex
neurology. Read what Shungrin has to say, he should know.
Posted by linkadge on April 22, 2003, at 8:56:41
In reply to Re: That research is old news., posted by stjames on April 22, 2003, at 1:33:14
If you're depressed before and after taking
Ecstacy you may never ever know that
brain dammage has occured.Brain dammage isn't a binary thing,
you may dammage the subtlties of emotion
that are not always used every day.
For instance everyone feels happy and sad (at times) but the complexty of emotion is created by density of our neuronil networks. When you take a neurotoxic substance, you're just
takeing out the pruing shears and chopping off
branches.
Most druggies would like more than anything
for their experiences to be consequence free,
but it just doesn't happen that way.If you don't think you have brain dammage
then its at a undetectable level.Linkadge
Posted by stjames on April 22, 2003, at 10:16:32
In reply to Re: That research is old news., posted by linkadge on April 22, 2003, at 8:56:41
> If you're depressed before and after taking
> Ecstacy you may never ever know that
> brain dammage has occured.
I don't see how you possibly could know all this about me.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 22, 2003, at 17:54:48
In reply to That research is old news., posted by linkadge on April 21, 2003, at 19:19:41
> May I suggest reading "Drugs and the Brain"
> by Solomon H. Snyder.I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by mattd on April 24, 2003, at 14:34:29
In reply to MDMA-induced brain damage, posted by indanone on April 19, 2003, at 13:45:03
Try 1200 IU of vitamin E a day--there's all sorts of new studies on it showing how helpful it is in maintaining and restoring brain health
Matt
> Five years ago, over a six month period, I consumed ~150 capsules of MDMA sometimes taking up to 5 pills in an evening. About 1 year later, I started developing neurological problems such as difficulty concentrating, extremely reduced short-term memory, head-aches, blurred vision, depression. When I close my eyes, it feels like my brain is twitching. Doctors have found nothing wrong with me. I have no history of mental illness and I am not taking any medications.
>
> It has been nearly 4 years of living in a very painful mental state and my brain does not appear to be healing itself. I am 25, I have many years to live but cannot go on living like this.
>
> Please contact me if you believe that you have suffered the same fate as me. Maybe, through discussion, we can help each other out.
Posted by pelorojo on April 24, 2003, at 18:38:28
In reply to MDMA-induced brain damage, posted by indanone on April 19, 2003, at 13:45:03
Hi there -
I wanted to make a suggestion of where you might focus some healing energy. There are anti-oxidants and other substances that allegedly have some affinity for brain-area actions (or at least they think they can cross the blood-brain barrier). Some info I read in the webinfosphere indicated that high dose antioxidants may be of use in some neurological disorders. Some substances purportedly even stimulate nerve growth factor (Lion's Mane, idebenone) - although I don't know enough about NGF to know that is an unequivocally good thing. Others are supposed to oppose neuron destruction by countering glutamate toxicity (theanine, neurontin, klonopin). I hesitate to make specific recommendations as I am not a doctor, don't know your situation, and am also extremely fallible when it comes to relating this kind of information. I know for me part of the healing is the journey; by reading and experimenting with these things I contribute to my healing even if the substance I'm trying doesn't itself work (and you never know when you might get lucky and have a strong placebo response - placebo is a powerful drug!).
Best wishes to you. I am so sorry to hear that a drug that has, at times, been wonderful for me appears to have been so damaging for you.
Posted by indanone on April 24, 2003, at 23:10:34
In reply to Re: MDMA-induced brain damage » indanone, posted by pelorojo on April 24, 2003, at 18:38:28
I must reiterate that these past 4 years have been the worst of my life and things do not seem to be improving. These may appear to be scare tactics but I do not wish this fate upon anyone else. However, I know there are others with the same problems from reading various psychology journals.
However, I still advocate using MDMA but suing common sense. Do not take large doses (i.e. do not take more than 2 pills in an evening) and allow at least a few days recovery between sessions. Also, my gut instinct combined with some info. I've pulled from the literature has me believe that taking 50 pills over your lifetime will not leave you with any noticeable brain damage.
Do not, I repeat, do not allow yourself to become another victim.
Posted by lostsailor on April 25, 2003, at 1:16:27
In reply to Re: MDMA-induced brain damage, posted by indanone on April 24, 2003, at 23:10:34
This rock band in high-school and college, the Grateful Dead , folled me everywhere it seemed.
I have tried , eerr..., a af ew drugs. Ok a lot.
I even used valium and other benzos to calm down at the shows.When I first me pdoc and filled out paperwork, I had to ask for an extra sheet of paper to list drugs used. I thought no bezos for me , no way...doc chatted and thought I was using them for the right purpose but without the right knowledge. Xanax and Valium are easier to get for me than my silly asthma puffer from reg doc. Pdoc ends up writing for that too, as I only need them after running or cycling 9ie sports for exercised induced asthma) I have tons, but when frazzeld and I can't find one I panic and can't breath. so it goes.
ANYWAY...doc stresses one or two points. 1) most drugs that cause psych troubles happen almost definately the day of, after or soon after...basically a shock to the system and 2) the biggie to him..."you can never untake the substances you already took."
He is cool. I am on a fair amount of meds and can, if pre-planned still have a beer or two tops on occasion as long as I scale back meds that day and the next. Mind you 2 is not ten!!!
Also, unless while manic, he says a bit of pot is better than beer. he knows that I am still young and need to live. he says that the main reason he can tell me things like this when other docs won't is the fact of my honesty with him.
Work with your doc and he can really help....
~tony
Posted by wendy b. on April 27, 2003, at 23:09:30
In reply to Re: MDMA-induced brain damage, posted by indanone on April 24, 2003, at 23:10:34
Indanone,
I don't know, call me crazy, but... have you been evaluated by a neurologist? You don't say anything about it, and the cast of characters more interested in who's right/who's wrong about brain damage, have not suggested it, either...
If you haven't, I'd feel better if you went to see one. And I don't even know you...! Vit. E and fish oil are fine, but you need to find out the true extent of the damage. I'm sure nothing fazes the doctors anymore, and if you're lucky, the doc will have seen other MDMA cases.
best wishes,
Wendy
Posted by indanone on April 28, 2003, at 1:54:28
In reply to Re: MDMA-induced brain damage » indanone, posted by wendy b. on April 27, 2003, at 23:09:30
Gone to see GP's, psychologists and a neurologists but they have provided little help and even less insight into my problems. I was in contact with a MD/PhD at John's Hopkin's University and was set to go out to spend a week with them as a participant in a study on the effects of MDMA on dopamine and seratonin receptors in the brain. This unfortunately fell through as at the time, they were looking for volunteers who had taken MDMA more recently.
Imaging techniques such as MRI are useful moreso for diagnosing tumors and such. Neuronal damage can be evaluated using other imaging techniques such as positron emmision spectroscopy but access to this type of diagnosis/analysis is more limited.
I may consult another neurologist at least to see what my chances are for neuronal regeneration over time.
I'll keep posting on thsi sight as things come up.
Also, look for some p.e.i. spect. images of MDMA/non-MDMA brains on the Internet. You may be interested to see what the differences are present.
Posted by wendy b. on April 28, 2003, at 13:50:41
In reply to Re: MDMA-induced brain damage, posted by indanone on April 28, 2003, at 1:54:28
...Sorry! Since nobody had mentioned it, I just thought I'd ask. I now see that you have been through a lot of different evals, and that's good. Maybe the Johns Hopkins researcher could evaluate you anyway, for a fee, of course. Good luck with this, it sounds like even though you've had a rough time, you are coping well, and you have a game-plan.
my best wishes --- Wendy
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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