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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by utopizen on January 26, 2003, at 23:19:24
I do. I feel better. I can have sex. I would rather not have a girlfriend and and have the capacity to have sex than not have a girlfriend, not have the capacity to have sex if I were to find one, and have a stupid false-hope a drug will cure my SP in a few more weeks. Seems to me like I was always living for that extra few more weeks when the drug was going to kick in, only to find to have to repeat the same thing on a different drug with the same failing result.
I'm seeking a seriously big-wig psychopharmacologist at Beth Isreal soon for a consult (he's got too many patients, but will give me a 1-hr consult).
I want to go on Klono and forget this pathetic, never-ending drug trial story. I like reminding myself I have a libido of a 19 yr old and not a 70 year old. Why? Because I am a 19 year old, and my psychopharma shouldn't even think about suggesting I try friggin' Viagra. Gosh, they make you so screwed up I begin to relate to Bob Dole. Bob bleapin' Dole.
My advice to all you non-responders out there: think about not listening to the Nardil chorus and do your own thing. Nardil is not likely to do anything but for a small portion of people. And that's to say if it does work, you have no sex drive and will have to be vigiliant about not over-doing any stims.
Heck, you might be back to where you started, which could be a good thing.
And for those of you who have social anxiety and responded to an SSRI- good for you. But I know too many friends who have social anxiety who are on Celexa and others who don't even know why they keep taking it anymore. I did that for a year straight before even bothing with another med. I want to be supportive of you guys on this board, but I don't believe people who claim it worked on them. But I'm bias.
Posted by Caleb462 on January 26, 2003, at 23:42:44
In reply to Does anyone feel better OFF an SSR/SNRI?, posted by utopizen on January 26, 2003, at 23:19:24
I have a mild case of social anxiety, that in some cases becomes moderate - never severe. I can say that Paxil did indeed help. I actually started *talking* in school, speaking out and making jokes. I was no longer afraid to say something to a class-mate I didn't really know. I'm no longer on Paxil, instead I am now taking Effexor. Effexor has not done much for social anxiety, but social anxiety is not my main problem, so that is quite alright. Of course, I'm no longer in the busy, social high school enviorment - therefore it's much harder to see if Effexor is doing something socially, where as with Paxil the subtle effects were made quite obvious.
From what I have seen from taking SSRIs and SNRIs.. they are better than nothing, but they are probably NOT the best drugs for social anxiety. For mild cases, maybe. But for someone with a serious social phobia, I would imagine Benzos would be a much better choice.
Posted by jay on January 27, 2003, at 0:41:43
In reply to Does anyone feel better OFF an SSR/SNRI?, posted by utopizen on January 26, 2003, at 23:19:24
After tons of research of using tricyclics in panic and anxiety disorder w/ depression, I went on a tricyclic. Now some are different..but the *only* one I couldn't handle was amitriptyline (Elavil)I've read a number of psychiatrists are starting to think that tricyclics (TCA's) seem to not alter peoples core personality, and provide that *numbing* effect, as SSRI's. I can agree to that, having been on both. The weight gain from SSRI's seems FAR worse then any I have gained on a TCA. Sleep is almost 99 percent better, and there is very little loss of sex drive compared to an SSRI. I also recall over my decade of experience, that only the SSRI's brought on angry, sometimes suicidal feeling. On a further note...it seems the only TCA side-effect doctors and drug companies have to play up against TCA's is the 'heart monitoring' condition, which usally only applies to those with heart problems...and a regular EKG(sp?) can detect. My Dad had a mild heart attack many years ago, and has been on Doxepin for 12 years now, and all heart tests show up great.
In fact...I even find that tiredness during the day is LESS than with an SSRI.The other 'negative aspects' big drug companies play with is the fact TCA's can be lethal in overdose. Well, there are some VERY simple answers for that.
One, dispense at a weekly or bi-weekly interval (TCA's are very cheap, so the add-on to start of a pharmacies prescription charge is worth it and STILL can amount to a very small cost. A bottle of 30 of mine cost 5 bucks, with a 4 dollar presciption charge.) 2nd, the doctor can take weekly blood work to make sure you are taking your meds, and not 'stashing' them.There is also some research that the TCA's work much better than the SSRI's on anxiety, and have a far, far less poop-out rate.
One of the scariest things for me with the SSRI's was the way it drastically changed my personality. It's like after awhile, it sucks the colour out of it, and you become almost 'robotic'. Yes, at first they seem to have a robust effect, but down the road, I think they are 'wicked' medications, and you rarely see news stories about people on doxepin 'flipping out' and going postal at work or something like that.
Anyhow...just IMHO...
Jay
Posted by viridis on January 27, 2003, at 1:02:55
In reply to Does anyone feel better OFF an SSR/SNRI?, posted by utopizen on January 26, 2003, at 23:19:24
That's a tough call -- if it was SSRIs/SNRIs or nothing, which would be better? These drugs definitely work for some people; I have friends whose lives have been turned around by Prozac, Celexa, Paxil etc. I guess it just depends on your brain chemistry and disorder.
Personally, I'd never touch either again. My reactions have ranged from disastrous (Zoloft, Wellbutrin) to disappointing (Prozac). I have the most experience with Prozac, having taken it on and off for years (often for many months at a time, at various doses). The pattern is always the same: heightened anxiety at first, then a wired yet detached state in which I don't really care about anything, and people find me "spaced out". Without it, or any other meds, I have my ups and downs, ranging from fine to intensely anxious to severely depressed. But at least I'm motivated some of the time. I wouldn't want to live my life on Prozac, and I couldn't tolerate the others (although I certainly haven't tried them all).
In any case, there are lots of alternatives, and I seem to have found a good combo, at least for now. My psychiatrist agrees that I'm a "no-SSRI" type, so I don't have to worry about having those drugs pushed at me any more (and won't allow them to be in future, should I have to change doctors). Interestingly, he mentioned that he's taken SSRIs himself for depression, so is personally familiar with the potential side effects (it's nice to have a doctor who's actually experienced some of the meds he prescribes).
But SSRIs/SNRIs definitely have their place for some people, so I wouldn't write them off completely. I am very skeptical about their use in people with serious anxiety problems though.
BTW, my pdoc says that SSRIs cause sexual problems in at least 60% of patients, and told me that he considers this a very conservative estimate.
Posted by polarbear206 on January 27, 2003, at 15:28:38
In reply to YES..Much, MUCH better on a tricyclic » utopizen, posted by jay on January 27, 2003, at 0:41:43
Posted by Jack Smith on January 27, 2003, at 16:30:43
In reply to Does anyone feel better OFF an SSR/SNRI?, posted by utopizen on January 26, 2003, at 23:19:24
> My advice to all you non-responders out there: >think about not listening to the Nardil chorus and >do your own thing. Nardil is not likely to do >anything but for a small portion of people. And >that's to say if it does work, you have no sex drive >and will have to be vigiliant about not over-doing >any stims.
Does anyone agree with this above statement??--"Nardil only working for a small portion of people." It seems like for the overwhelming majority of people, it does work and work better than anything else for just about all depression and anxiety disorders. However, the side effects that are pointed out do stop a lot of people from trying it or staying on it. I would like to know where you got that info? If it is just your opinion, you might want to present it as such.
As for your statement about celexa never working for people--I can definitely say it worked for me. How do I know? Because when I stopped it, all hell broke loose, now it isn't working anymore, seems like a common problem with ssris.
Posted by utopizen on January 27, 2003, at 18:41:55
In reply to Nardil only works for a small number of people???, posted by Jack Smith on January 27, 2003, at 16:30:43
It's not my opinion. Why the heck would I make something up?
My psychopharmacologist laughed out loud hysterically when I naively passed on the info from this board on how it worked in 60% of people. He's one of the top in the country, one of the most notable in Boston.
Posted by Jack Smith on January 27, 2003, at 18:57:34
In reply to Re: Nardil only works for a small number of people, posted by utopizen on January 27, 2003, at 18:41:55
I wasn't accusing you. Your psychopharmocologist should have gotten a better laugh--people on this board are saying 90%--quoting Dr. F. Quitken of New York. Who knows who's right.
The only thing I know is that I have never seen a drug with such a good reputation on discussion boards,not just this one. Do a search on Google Groups for nardil. While people complain about side effects almost no one says that it didn't have an excellent antidepressant and anxiolytic effect. That means something because almost every other drug you do a search on, you are going to get 50% positive, 50% negative.
Just my two cents.
Jack
Posted by cosis on January 27, 2003, at 19:14:30
In reply to Re: Nardil only works for a small number of people, posted by utopizen on January 27, 2003, at 18:41:55
Your doc sounds like a moron to me.
It works wonderfully... Nothing will kill my sex drive :)
Been taking it 6 months 90mg... best drug I have ever taken. A total life saver.
Nick
Posted by ace on January 27, 2003, at 19:29:18
In reply to Re: Nardil only works for a small number of people, posted by utopizen on January 27, 2003, at 18:41:55
> It's not my opinion. Why the heck would I make something up?
>
> My psychopharmacologist laughed out loud hysterically when I naively passed on the info from this board on how it worked in 60% of people. He's one of the top in the country, one of the most notable in Boston.Your psychopharmacolist sounds VERY inexperienced. Every serious psychopharmacologist knows MAOI's, especially Nardil, to be extremely efficacious in the treatment of all depressive/anxiety D/O's. First of all the figure is not 60% but more like 90%. I bet another good portion of the 10% give up on it due to s/effects or duration of onset (it can take up to 8 weeks, 4 on 60mg. Anti-phobic effects typicall come after anti-depressive effects) Furthermore anti-OCD effects typically take 12 weeks, with at least 4 weeks on 90mg.) A lot of people experience fast onset, some don't. I think your psychopharmacologist needs to start listening to people's real reactions. Refer him to this board or any other with Nardil experiences on it. See if he 'laughs hysterically' then.
Posted by Jack Smith on January 27, 2003, at 19:36:55
In reply to Re: Nardil only works for a small number of people, posted by cosis on January 27, 2003, at 19:14:30
Nick, what other drugs have you tried? What is your dx?
Posted by Marginal on January 28, 2003, at 17:35:57
In reply to Nardil only works for a small number of people???, posted by Jack Smith on January 27, 2003, at 16:30:43
You'll see all slants on this board, on all meds, which makes it a good resource. The old adage "everyone's mileage will differ" stands strong.
I've gone through a lot of years and a lot of pdocs and lot of meds, and most pdocs RAVE about Nardil. But some are also skittish about the side effects, and use it all too infrequently.
Run searches on the 'net, and you'll find that Nardil has a huge success rate for CERTAIN types of depression and social phobias -- % points in the 80s and even 90s in some places, which is much better than the 50-60s that other meds claim. But again, the success rates for Nardil are lower in OTHER types of depressions. Other matters that are sometimes forgotten is dose -- I've read about patients who gave 60 mg a 4 month trial, only to give up in frustration. Some of these folks, if they'd gone up to 90 (the highest I've seen is 120), may very well have responded.
I'm on my second go-round, only up to Day 13. It will take many more weeks -- I'm told -- to see if it works for me again.
M
Posted by McPac on January 28, 2003, at 20:23:36
In reply to YES..Much, MUCH better on a tricyclic » utopizen, posted by jay on January 27, 2003, at 0:41:43
"I also recall over my decade of experience, that only the SSRI's brought on angry,"
GOD do I agree with that!
Jay, which ssri made you feel so "angry"..do you remember?
Also, you said the tca's have less "poop-out"..is that generally true?
Posted by ace on January 28, 2003, at 20:25:08
In reply to Re: Nardil only works for a small number of people???, posted by Marginal on January 28, 2003, at 17:35:57
But again, the success rates for Nardil are lower in OTHER types of depressions.
What other types of depression do you mean?
Posted by McPac on January 28, 2003, at 20:30:30
In reply to Nardil only works for a small number of people???, posted by Jack Smith on January 27, 2003, at 16:30:43
"Because when I stopped it (Celexa), all hell broke loose, now it isn't working anymore, seems like a common problem with ssris."
Jack, I stopped Zoloft, which was helping, then felt lousy..then I started it again and, for a pretty long time it seemed to do nothing...but I stayed with it and finally it seemed to resume working again. How long did you take your Celexa for THE SECOND TIME before you gave up on it? I'm just wondering if it might have resumed working for you if you stayed with it longer?
Posted by McPac on January 28, 2003, at 20:36:24
In reply to Re: Does anyone feel better OFF an SSR/SNRI? » utopizen, posted by viridis on January 27, 2003, at 1:02:55
What exactly did Zoloft do to you? Did it make you EXTREMELY angry?
Posted by viridis on January 29, 2003, at 23:59:38
In reply to viridis Does anyone feel better OFF an SSR/SNRI?, posted by McPac on January 28, 2003, at 20:36:24
Zoloft made me feel just about every emotion imaginable, changing from hour to hour (I guess this would qualify as rapid cycling?). This included anger, which isn't normal for me -- I do get angry occasionally, but it's always justified and is quite manageable. With Zoloft, my temper could flare for no apparent reason. My wife asked if it really was necessary for me to take a drug that "turned me into a complete ***hole" (in her words).
I got off it pretty fast, and after that experience my psychiatrist said no more SSRIs. Aside from Wellbutrin, that was definitely my worst experience with a psychiatric med --and I was only taking 12.5 mg!
Posted by McPac on January 31, 2003, at 20:59:23
In reply to Re: viridis Does anyone feel better OFF an SSR/SN » McPac, posted by viridis on January 29, 2003, at 23:59:38
Thanks viridis. I know the experience well.
Take care
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