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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 35 to 59 of 59. Go back in thread:
Posted by johnj on November 27, 2002, at 9:25:50
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep » bluedog, posted by colin wallace on November 27, 2002, at 6:56:29
Hey Colin,
A post to you got lost in the shuffle awhile back so I thought I would see how things are going with you. Is the lamactal still working well?
I tried lexapro and it made me so anxious even at a low dose. I was sleep all of the time and generally out of it. I do know for a fact now that the TCA messes me up when I excercise. By experimenting I get the side effects listed on the prescription. There is even a warning about over heating causing dizziness, etc. So, I have decided that I will try some breathing excercises/yoga stuff over the next few months and demand that my TCA be lowered and maybe stopped. My theory is that if I can excercise I can do at least as good as the TCA. Don't know what else to try. Hope things are going well. take care
johnj
Posted by johnj on November 27, 2002, at 9:27:16
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep, posted by bluedog on November 26, 2002, at 21:29:39
See my post to Colin, but I know he had the same sleep disturbance as I did on fish oil. I had to get off it. What other meds do you take? take care
johnj
Posted by bluedog on November 28, 2002, at 4:04:35
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep » bluedog, posted by johnj on November 27, 2002, at 9:27:16
> See my post to Colin, but I know he had the same sleep disturbance as I did on fish oil. I had to get off it. What other meds do you take? take care
> johnjMy other meds at the moment are 20mg generic Prozac in the morning and 2.5mg Diazepam twice daily (once at night and once in the morning)
thanks again
bluedog
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2002, at 8:05:00
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep » bluedog, posted by johnj on November 27, 2002, at 9:27:16
> See my post to Colin, but I know he had the same sleep disturbance as I did on fish oil. I had to get off it. What other meds do you take? take care
> johnjJust wanted to let you know that I can't figure out how fish oil could do that; nothing in Medline gives a clue, and even google is silent. I'll let you know if I come up with anything.
Lar
Posted by colin wallace on November 29, 2002, at 7:06:10
In reply to My sleep was also screwed up you are not alone » colin wallace, posted by johnj on November 27, 2002, at 9:25:50
> Hey Colin,
>
> A post to you got lost in the shuffle awhile back so I thought I would see how things are going with you. Is the lamactal still working well?
>
> I tried lexapro and it made me so anxious even at a low dose. I was sleep all of the time and generally out of it. I do know for a fact now that the TCA messes me up when I excercise. By experimenting I get the side effects listed on the prescription. There is even a warning about over heating causing dizziness, etc. So, I have decided that I will try some breathing excercises/yoga stuff over the next few months and demand that my TCA be lowered and maybe stopped. My theory is that if I can excercise I can do at least as good as the TCA. Don't know what else to try. Hope things are going well. take care
> johnjHi there John,
Did I miss a post somewhere? Can't get those yellow 'new' flags working consistently-pain in the ass.
Yeah, it doesn't seem as if you're cut out for TCA's does it?! I really hated that 'egg-whisked'
brain feeling for hours after exercise on TCA's too.
My anxiety went through the roof on SSRI's early on aswell- I was nervous and jittery as hell on Cipramil, and only lasted a few weeks on it.I 'toughed out' around 4 weeks of hugely increased anxiety on Zoloft, before it began to have any therapeutic effect.Difference between us is that I wasn't working, and could never have put up with that level of anxiety if I had been.Did you try upping your benzo. at all?
I've always liked the idea of yoga, and I got some great relief for a while with acupuncture- well worth a try.
The Lamictal experience is going well- much better than any AD I've ever tried, as it's very unobtrusive and doesn't even feel like an AD.
No probs. exercising with it, and it's definitely been beneficial to my alertness and energy levels.In fact, it's achieved in 3 months far more than I've been able to achieve in 3 years.Have you considered it at all? Wouldn't interfere with exercise or work, I'm sure.
Weather here has scuppered my biking for the time being, but still use an indoor trainer to keep ticking over.
Anyway, keep plugging away with the med. Russian roulette, and hopefully you'll hit upon something suitable soon enough.
All the best,Col.
Posted by ZeeZee on November 30, 2002, at 9:26:36
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep, posted by bluedog on November 26, 2002, at 21:29:39
I posted my problem with fish oil last spring. After taking one pill of the Omega Brite brand I began having rushes, or surges of adrenalin. I had fractured sleep that night. The next day with taking all 3 pills as recommended, the surges were worse and I did not sleep at all. Most of those who responded to me attempted to convince me that it wasn't the fish oil and that this experience was an anomoly. Someone finally responded with the same s/e's and data that fish oil increases serotonin, (something I'm very sensitive too and which increases my anxiety and causes insomnia). So, trust your experience. We all respond differently. By the way all of this stopped as soon as I ceased using the stuff.
Good Luck.
Posted by bluedog on December 1, 2002, at 8:39:39
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep » bluedog, posted by ZeeZee on November 30, 2002, at 9:26:36
Thanks for sharing your experience. I'll let you know in a couple of weeks whether my symptoms persist and I will then have no choice but to stop the supplements like you had to.
bluedog
Posted by Ed O`Flaherty on January 21, 2003, at 17:17:20
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep » ZeeZee, posted by bluedog on December 1, 2002, at 8:39:39
This board has many entries about insomnia in people on fish oil.This is not a problem I have seen described elsewhere.Perhaps those who are on omega-3 might let us know how it affects their sleep.Any other negative aspects of omega-3 can be described too as we have rather a lot of positive reports on the board recently and we don`t want to get carried away.
Posted by noa on January 21, 2003, at 18:54:41
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep, posted by Ed O`Flaherty on January 21, 2003, at 17:17:20
No sleep problems, but I do notice increased motor restlessness, at certain times of the day, which seem to coincide with my adderall wearing off. Like in the evenings. I have alot of motor restlessness, but my head feels sleepy. I can't tell if the restlessness is a kind of attempt to keep stimulation coming into the brain so I won't fall asleep. I think it does have that aspect to it, but I suspect it would be there even when I am not feeling sleepy-"headed".
I am going to talk to my pdoc about this--I think it is possible that the fish oil is potentiating the serotonergic effects of the effexor, and maybe a bit too much.
Otherwise, I am satisfied with the fish oil.
Posted by SLS on January 22, 2003, at 7:36:30
In reply to Re: Inuit omega-3 intake » freedom2001, posted by ShelliR on November 22, 2002, at 22:53:05
> I am also in my sixth week of taking a combination of homeopathic remedies "prescribed" by my doctor, and I can already tell that I have gotten some relief from my depression.
Hi Shelli.What kind of stuff are you taking?
- Scott
Posted by ShelliR on January 22, 2003, at 22:32:27
In reply to Re: Inuit omega-3 intake » ShelliR, posted by SLS on January 22, 2003, at 7:36:30
> > I am also in my sixth week of taking a combination of homeopathic remedies "prescribed" by my doctor, and I can already tell that I have gotten some relief from my depression.
>
>
> Hi Shelli.
>
> What kind of stuff are you taking?
>
>
> - ScottHi Scott,
Right now I'm taking methadone & diazapam--the diazapam as needed.
I was taking both abilify and lexapro with no side effects except a really bad internal shaking. I wasn't (and still aren't) sure whether it was from the drugs or a serious illness in my family that has me upset. I had also had shaking at some point with the high does of omega III, so I stopped that also.
Anyway, today was the first day I didn't feel that I had to climb out of my skin. If the shakes ago away, then I'll start to decrease the methadone very slowly and see what's happening. I move in and out of faith in my homeopathic doctor and right now the faith is there, since nothing else is helping my depression but methadone. Yet I'm not waking up as depressed as I had been before on methadone alone and I'm back to work. I'm also thinking of trying straterra if I can't get off of methadone.
How about you? If zyprexa is working well, 15lbs isn't too bad. I was sorry I went off lamictal for 15 lbs, then it didn't work again. On the other hand, abilify seems like a drug with much less side effects (in general). What about straterra? What's your main AD, nardil or effexor, I can't remember.Here's to a better year,
Shelli
Posted by Ed O`Flaherty on January 23, 2003, at 4:01:56
In reply to Re: Inuit omega-3 intake » SLS, posted by ShelliR on January 22, 2003, at 22:32:27
> > > I am also in my sixth week of taking a combination of homeopathic remedies "prescribed" by my doctor, and I can already tell that I have gotten some relief from my depression.
> >
> >
> > Hi Shelli.
> >
> > What kind of stuff are you taking?
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Hi Scott,
>
> Right now I'm taking methadone & diazapam--the diazapam as needed.
>
> I was taking both abilify and lexapro with no side effects except a really bad internal shaking. I wasn't (and still aren't) sure whether it was from the drugs or a serious illness in my family that has me upset. I had also had shaking at some point with the high does of omega III, so I stopped that also.
>
> Anyway, today was the first day I didn't feel that I had to climb out of my skin. If the shakes ago away, then I'll start to decrease the methadone very slowly and see what's happening. I move in and out of faith in my homeopathic doctor and right now the faith is there, since nothing else is helping my depression but methadone. Yet I'm not waking up as depressed as I had been before on methadone alone and I'm back to work. I'm also thinking of trying straterra if I can't get off of methadone.
>
>
> How about you? If zyprexa is working well, 15lbs isn't too bad. I was sorry I went off lamictal for 15 lbs, then it didn't work again. On the other hand, abilify seems like a drug with much less side effects (in general). What about straterra? What's your main AD, nardil or effexor, I can't remember.
>
> Here's to a better year,
>
> ShelliHi Shelli,
I see you are on methadone.I have seen several patients reduce the dose of methadone they need by going on fish oil and some of them have come off it completely.Perhaps you would enlighten us about your original history leading to the prescription of methadone.Ed
Posted by ShelliR on January 23, 2003, at 10:41:02
In reply to Re: Inuit omega-3 intake, posted by Ed O`Flaherty on January 23, 2003, at 4:01:56
> Hi Shelli,
> I see you are on methadone.I have seen several patients reduce the dose of methadone they need by going on fish oil and some of them have come off it completely.Perhaps you would enlighten us about your original history leading to the prescription of methadone.
>
> Ed
Hi Ed,If you look up methadone, oxycontin and buprenorphine, my whole detailed story over the last two years should come up. Here's a synopsis:
About two and a half years ago, nardil stopped working for major depression after about twenty years. (Maybe related to perimenopausal changes.) I also had very bad inflammation in my chest, associated with depression for me.
After trying nearly 20 combinations of meds, a pdoc put me on oxycontin for pain/depression. It worked, but I had to increase to a very high dose because of continuing habituation. Over the last few years I have been on and off opiates, decided on methadone rather than oxycontin because it is much much cheaper. Now I'm going to a homeopatheic doctor to treat the depression as well as trying some of the newest treatments (including abilify) so I can get off the methadone. Want to get off methadone because of possibililty that at some time it may not be available for me, fear of not effectively being able to treat another type of pain if that should happen, as well as constipation, and anorgasmic side effects.Shelli
Posted by SLS on January 24, 2003, at 11:03:11
In reply to Re: Inuit omega-3 intake » SLS, posted by ShelliR on January 22, 2003, at 22:32:27
Hi Shelli.
> How about you?Things pretty much suck. Right now, I'm taking Nardil 75mg, Lamictal 200mg, and desipramine 150mg. This is turning out to be a dead end. I did experience some relief from Effexor + TCA. I think my doctor is too conservative. I have begun to search for a new one.
> If zyprexa is working well, 15lbs isn't too bad.
Zyprexa produced a pronounced antidepressant effect over the first week or so. Although it remained somewhat helpful thereafter, it wasn't enough for me to justify gaining more than 20lbs. I might use it to help mitigate the worsening of depression I expect when I discontinue Nardil.
> On the other hand, abilify seems like a drug with much less side effects (in general).
I don't know. I was really excited to want to try it, but it seems that it has produced anxiety and dysphoria in more than one person. It's possible that it was the Abilify that was responsible for your shaking. Did you also experience anxiety or inner restlessness? Did it help in any way?
> What about straterra?
My doctor is not in favor of its use in depression, and won't prescribe it as of today. I didn't understand the legitimacy of his rationale, but he said it was potentially dangerous for use in depression. He and his colleague had participated in clinical investigation of Strattera for ADD/ ADHD.
That leaves Lexapro.
I am hoping that duloxetine (Cymbalta) comes out soon. It is a dual-action serotonin + norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor. This is similar to Effexor. However, it is supposed to be better balanced than Effexor. I called Eli Lilly regarding its status last week. It has been granted an "approvable letter" by the FDA, but has not been officially approved. I doubt it will be available much before summer. I get the feeling that MAOI (partial) responders tend also to be responsive to dual-action drugs. I hope so.
What brand of fish-oil do you use?
> Here's to a better year,
God, I hope so.
- Scott
Posted by ShelliR on January 24, 2003, at 20:18:29
In reply to Re: Inuit omega-3 intake » ShelliR, posted by SLS on January 24, 2003, at 11:03:11
Hi Scott
> > On the other hand, abilify seems like a drug with much less side effects (in general).> It's possible that it was the Abilify that was responsible for your shaking. Did you also experience anxiety or inner restlessness? Did it help in any way?
Definitely inner restlessness. I thought it was helping but I haven't gone back into depression since I've been off, so I don't know.
> > What about straterra?
> My doctor is not in favor of its use in depression, and won't prescribe it as of today. I didn't understand the legitimacy of his rationale, but he said it was potentially dangerous for use in depression. He and his colleague had participated in clinical investigation of Strattera for ADD/ ADHD.He didn't tell you dangerous in what way?
> That leaves Lexapro.
> I am hoping that duloxetine (Cymbalta) comes out soon. It is a dual-action serotonin + norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor. This is similar to Effexor. However, it is supposed to be better balanced than Effexor. I called Eli Lilly regarding its status last week. It has been granted an "approvable letter" by the FDA, but has not been officially approved. I doubt it will be available much before summer. I get the feeling that MAOI (partial) responders tend also to be responsive to dual-action drugs. I hope so.Is that why you're going off nardil? Is your doctor encouraging a trial of Cymbalta?
> What brand of fish-oil do you use?
First Carlson cod oil with lemon & without vitamin A. Totally no fish taste. then I moved to Omega Brite because I thought it had the proportions from the successful results. Now nothing; I'm still waiting for the restlessness to go away completely before I try again. Also, I was taking Inositol, which I'll resume probably also. That restlessness was so horrible that I want to make sure I get the culprit totally out of my body. Although someone wrote and said that the anxiety went away from abilify in several weeks. Again, I'm not sure what he meant by anxiety; also I don't think I would take the chance again. It was awful for over two weeks. Valium didn't touch it. That should have been my clue that it was drug induced.
Shelli
Posted by yeltom on January 24, 2003, at 23:29:39
In reply to Re: Inuit omega-3 intake » SLS, posted by ShelliR on January 24, 2003, at 20:18:29
My fish oil brand is Now. There's 1000 mg of oil in each softgel, but one serving (2 softgels) contains only 600 mg of Omega-3s (360 mg EPA and 240 mg DHA). In other words, 1 softgel contains 300 mg of Omega-3s. It seems that 5 grams per day is the consensus, but is that 5 grams of fish oil (5 softgels), or 5 grams of Omega-3s (around 17 softgels)? Big difference. And is 5 grams per day indeed an ideal amount to take, and doesn't it depend on what drugs you're taking? (I'm taking 40 mg. of Celexa, 50 mg trazodone as needed, and 30 mg of Buspar. I'm also experimenting with small a small dose of risperdal, but I don't know whether I'll continue with it). Thanks for your help.
Posted by freedom2001 on January 25, 2003, at 8:48:18
In reply to Confusion about fish-oil dosage., posted by yeltom on January 24, 2003, at 23:29:39
> My fish oil brand is Now. There's 1000 mg of oil in each softgel, but one serving (2 softgels) contains only 600 mg of Omega-3s (360 mg EPA and 240 mg DHA). In other words, 1 softgel contains 300 mg of Omega-3s. It seems that 5 grams per day is the consensus, but is that 5 grams of fish oil (5 softgels), or 5 grams of Omega-3s (around 17 softgels)? Big difference. And is 5 grams per day indeed an ideal amount to take, and doesn't it depend on what drugs you're taking? (I'm taking 40 mg. of Celexa, 50 mg trazodone as needed, and 30 mg of Buspar. I'm also experimenting with small a small dose of risperdal, but I don't know whether I'll continue with it). Thanks for your help.
Hi,
This is my dosage:
Morning 8 am
generic prozac (40 mg)
clonazepam (0.5 mg)
2 fish oils (2000 mg EPA/DHA)
Afternoon 12 pm
generiz prozac (40 mg)
clonazepam (0.5 mg)
2 fish oils (2000 mg EPA/DHA)
4 pm
1 fish oil (1000 mg EPA/DHA)
night
1 hour before sleeping
50 mg trazodone (really helps to sleep! not like benzos which are addictive)
Functions of medications:
Prozac is a SSRI that boosts the availability of serotonin.
Clonazepam is a unique benzo that helps with your GABA and has some serotogenic functions as well. Theories about GABA defects in OCD has been proposed. Studies have shown that only clonazepam and neuroleptics give more consistent results when used to augment SSRIs.
Fish oils seems to "straighten" and "smooth" out your neurotransmission.
Trazodone is an antidepressant but it is more useful for SLEEPING.
Posted by noa on January 25, 2003, at 9:56:58
In reply to Re: Confusion about fish-oil dosage. » yeltom, posted by freedom2001 on January 25, 2003, at 8:48:18
The study I read about seemed to show patients' depression improved with 1 gram of EPA/day, and that taking 2 grams/day did not significantly increase the benefit.
But another study at Mclean Hospital gave patients with bipolar a lot of EPA
If you do a babble search of "fish oil", you'll find the posts where these articles are cited by various posters.
I have depression. I take effexor xr, adderall xr, serzone, thyroid meds, and ativan. I added fish oil recently, and noticed an improvement at about 5-6 days.
I take Carlson's fish oil (liquid). One teaspoon contains 800 mg. of EPA (I don't remember the amount of DHA exactly, but it is probably about 2/3 the amount of EPA). I take 1-2 teaspoons/day, either with dinner, or right before bed.
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 25, 2003, at 10:57:30
In reply to Confusion about fish-oil dosage., posted by yeltom on January 24, 2003, at 23:29:39
> My fish oil brand is Now. There's 1000 mg of oil in each softgel, but one serving (2 softgels) contains only 600 mg of Omega-3s (360 mg EPA and 240 mg DHA). In other words, 1 softgel contains 300 mg of Omega-3s. It seems that 5 grams per day is the consensus, but is that 5 grams of fish oil (5 softgels), or 5 grams of Omega-3s (around 17 softgels)? Big difference. And is 5 grams per day indeed an ideal amount to take, and doesn't it depend on what drugs you're taking? (I'm taking 40 mg. of Celexa, 50 mg trazodone as needed, and 30 mg of Buspar. I'm also experimenting with small a small dose of risperdal, but I don't know whether I'll continue with it). Thanks for your help.
Five grams of fish oil would provide 5 X 180 mg of EPA, which roughly approximates the 1000 mg = 1 gram of EPA found to be efficacious in treatment for depression. The DHA content would just be a bonus. Five caps/day, not 17.
Lar
Posted by bookgurl99 on January 26, 2003, at 3:37:59
In reply to Confusion about fish-oil dosage., posted by yeltom on January 24, 2003, at 23:29:39
At www.mercola.com the dr. gives advice about fish oils and cod liver oils.
Right now I'm following his advice re:cod liver oil and have seen an improvement in skin condition and concentration.
Posted by SLS on January 28, 2003, at 9:44:54
In reply to Re: Inuit omega-3 intake » SLS, posted by ShelliR on January 24, 2003, at 20:18:29
Shelli, thanks for replying.
> > > On the other hand, abilify seems like a drug with much less side effects (in general).
> > It's possible that it was the Abilify that was responsible for your shaking. Did you also experience anxiety or inner restlessness? Did it help in any way?> Definitely inner restlessness.
"Inner restlessness" is the term most often used to describe akathisia. Akathisia is considered to be a side-effect (EPS - extrapyramidal symptom) common to neuroleptic antipsychotics. Although touted as being practically without the potential to produce them, I would look at Abilify as the culprit, especially given its long half-life (75hrs - 3 days). Of course, your experience might be better explained by some other anxiogenic effect of Abilify.
> I thought it was helping but I haven't gone back into depression since I've been off, so I don't know.
Well, holy crap. Do you mean that you are without the depression that existed before trying these things? Are you doing better now than before trying Abilify? Do you think you would remain feeling well right now without methadone? That would be so cool.
> > > What about straterra?> > My doctor is not in favor of its use in depression, and won't prescribe it as of today. I didn't understand the legitimacy of his rationale, but he said it was potentially dangerous for use in depression. He and his colleague had participated in clinical investigation of Strattera for ADD/ ADHD.
> He didn't tell you dangerous in what way?
No, and he fumbled for words to justify his position. It seemed more like a conservative doctor looking to cover his ass by letting someone else go first.
> > That leaves Lexapro.
> > I am hoping that duloxetine (Cymbalta) comes out soon. It is a dual-action serotonin + norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor. This is similar to Effexor. However, it is supposed to be better balanced than Effexor. I called Eli Lilly regarding its status last week. It has been granted an "approvable letter" by the FDA, but has not been officially approved. I doubt it will be available much before summer. I get the feeling that MAOI (partial) responders tend also to be responsive to dual-action drugs. I hope so.> Is that why you're going off nardil?
Yes.
> Is your doctor encouraging a trial of Cymbalta?
I would probably try Cymbalta first were it available.My doctor likes the idea. Big deal. I'm pretty pissed. I feel like this doctor has wasted two years of my life by falsely representing himself as using innovative treatments. I am currently searching for another doctor.
> > What brand of fish-oil do you use?
> First Carlson cod oil with lemon & without vitamin A. Totally no fish taste. then I moved to Omega Brite because I thought it had the proportions from the successful results.How much does Omega Brite cost you per month? 1 gram of EPA per day?
Thanks again.
- Scott
Posted by snowden on January 28, 2003, at 20:03:29
In reply to Re: Inuit omega-3 intake » ShelliR, posted by SLS on January 28, 2003, at 9:44:54
I currently take six pills a day, which equal 500 mg DHA and 200 mg EPA each. Is EPA superior to DHA, or are they equal? Would I be better off taking something with more EPA per dose?
Posted by noa on January 28, 2003, at 22:20:28
In reply to Is DHA as effective as EPA?, posted by snowden on January 28, 2003, at 20:03:29
From what I've read, Epa is believed to be the more important for treatment of depression and bipolar. However, I've read that for children and fetal brain development, DHA may be more important. There was one article that describes DHA as more "structure" and EPA as more "function". When the search function returns to Babble, I'll try to find the reference.
Posted by noa on January 28, 2003, at 22:21:26
In reply to Re: Is DHA as effective as EPA?, posted by noa on January 28, 2003, at 22:20:28
But, I also haven't seen any studies comparing them to each other.
Posted by Ed O`Flaherty on January 29, 2003, at 17:21:44
In reply to Re: Is DHA as effective as EPA? PS, posted by noa on January 28, 2003, at 22:21:26
Stoll,who is in Harvard,reckons that EPA is the one we really need as adults for psychiatric purposes.His version of omega-3 Omegabrite (www.omegabrite.com) is very high in EPA.For children and pregnant women DHA is very important.
This is the end of the thread.
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