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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by LyndaK on December 5, 2002, at 22:30:49
You still out there? How's it going with the Moclobemide trial?
Lynda
Posted by cubbybear on December 6, 2002, at 1:28:29
In reply to Cubbybear, posted by LyndaK on December 5, 2002, at 22:30:49
Hi Lynda,
I'm doing OK. My situation is a bit unusual since I normally start up anti-depressants when I'm feeling tortured with depression; well the way things worked out, I had already been feeling pretty decent when I quit the Zoloft. My Dr. (who's a psychiatrist) had me start on a sub-minimal dose of Aurorix for various reasons, mainly to see if I would have any side-effects at first. So the first week has passed without any side effects at all . (This doesn't surprise me since Aurorix has a very good side-effect profile anyway). I expect that when I see the Dr. tonight, he will double the dose to 300 mg., which is the official minimum recommended dose for this drug, and that will remain as my maintenance dose. Of course, if I start feeling bad again in the future, we would increase it.
The next big hurdle--and I don't think I mentioned it to you--is that within about 2 weeks or so,I will have to start tapering off Klonopin, which I've taken as an adjunct to help me sleep. To get off the benzos, you must do a VERY slow taper; this will take months to do, but it's the safest way.Let me know how things are going for you with the Remeron--side effects, lessening of depression, etc. I wish you the best.--Steve
Posted by bluedog on December 6, 2002, at 2:28:42
In reply to Re: Cubbybear, posted by cubbybear on December 6, 2002, at 1:28:29
Hi Cubbybear
I posted on aurorix a little while back on this board where I mentioned that this drug saved my life a few years back with no side effects.
Unfortunately, I was only diagnosed with depression at that time and my social anxiety remained unrecognized at the time (I don't blame my GP for this as social anxiety has only recently received some deserved recognition by psychiatrists and GP's are still unlikely to diagnose this condition)
I am extremely interested in your aurorix trial and I am fascinated that you have been switched to this drug while you are relatively stable. To me this sounds like a really great idea and something I will discuss with my Pdoc once my current bout of depression has completely stabilised with my current Meds (generic Prozac and Diazepam)
I do have a question for you. Do you also suffer from social anxiety? If so I am VERY interested to know how it assists with social anxiety. I know it's only early days for you but please keep us updated as to your ongoing results especially in relation to social anxiety!!!
I especially liked the aurorix at the time I took it because I had no side effects (especially no sexual side effects which the ssri's all give me) and I am pretty keen to be able to experience normal sexual function again. Not having any sexual side effects can definitely contribute to an overall sense of well being and self confidence>
regards
bluedog
Posted by cubbybear on December 6, 2002, at 11:59:09
In reply to Re: Cubbybear » cubbybear, posted by bluedog on December 6, 2002, at 2:28:42
Hi bluedog,
It's always great to talk to another person who's had good things to say about Aurorix, since I'm just starting out with it. In this note, I'll tell you a bit about myself and try to answer your questions.
As for social anxiety--no, I never had that problem at all. In a nutshell, I am quite prone to relapses of depression that are accompanied by anxiety. I had great results for about 18 yrs. with MAOI Parnate but when I moved to Thailand in '97, things got to be a real problem since Parnate is not available here. I used to go back to the U.S. to get a year's supply of it once a year while visiting my family.
Then this past spring, I decided to be brave and try one of the "new generation" ADs, Remeron, which totally pooped out on me; then while in the worst depression ever, I was switched to Zoloft. (All or nearly all of the SSRIs are available in Thailand.) Anyway, my overall opinions of Zoloft are mixed, but it surely was nowhere as good as the Parnate for me. After doing loads of research on the Net and this message board, I found out all about Aurorix and figured that this could very well be the closest I could get to Parnate in Thailand since it's an MAO-type AD.
In your note, you said your were fascinated that I was switched to Aurorix. Well, not quite. It was *I* myself, who prevailed upon my (excellent) psychiatrist here to let me try it. He regularly prescribes the SSRIs but is open-minded and respectful of my own wishes as well. He knows that I had a very strong bias towards MAOIs, and that I really wanted to try Aurorix.
So, what actually happened over the past couple of months, is that the Zoloft somehow got me stabilized as I was phasing it out (?!?), I then waited the mandatory 2 week waiting period, then started the Aurorix while still feeling pretty good. We increased the dose to 300 mg. tonight, which will remain my maintenance dose. At the 150 mg. startup dose this past week, I had no side effects at all. I consider this trial to be also a form of "insurance" vs. any future possible depression. I'd rather have this drug--an MAO-- in my body than any of the SSRIs, so long as I'm living here. I completely agree with what you said about sexual side effects from the SSRIs and the need for normal sexual functioning.
Sorry I couldn't be more helpful regarding the social anxiety problem, but we should keep up the correspondence anyway. (By the way, I'm quite curious to know where you live. . .is it in Europe?)
My best to you,
Cubbybear
Posted by bluedog on December 6, 2002, at 12:35:14
In reply to Re: Cubbybear, posted by cubbybear on December 6, 2002, at 11:59:09
Hi Cubbybear
Gee, living in Thailand it must be about 1am or 2am in the morning. Shouldn't you be in bed getting some healing and recuperative shut-eye. I can't really talk because I actually live much closer to you than Europe and am also in the Asia-Pacific region. I live in Australia and it is well past midnight as I write this post :).
I will be going to bed as soon as I hit the submit button for this post.Yes, I would also like to remain in contact!! Can I ask what the probability would be of you lapsing back into depression without an AD Med in your system. I would really love to to see whether the minimum 300mg maintenance dose of Aurorix can prevent you relapsing back into depression so please keep me posted. Aurorix also has non or very few dietary restriction compared to the traditional MAOI's and this is another positive factor in it's favour.
Can I ask whether you have any other medical diagnoses other than depression and anxiety. For example do you suffer from any burnout or chronic fatigue as a result of your depression and anxiety?
Finally, can I ask why you are coming off the Clonazepam at this stage? (In your original post you said you "have" to start coming off this med) Do you no longer need this med (especially in relation to your anxiety) or are you simply unhappy taking too many meds and wish to see how you function without it? Have you experienced any problems with this med? I am interested in this question as I am also taking a benzo for my own anxiety (my social anxiety of course). My Pdoc has me on Diazepam and I am very happy with this med at this stage but I am keen to hear the experiences of others with the benzo's.
Keep in touch
bluedog
Posted by cubbybear on December 7, 2002, at 9:37:19
In reply to Re: Cubbybear » cubbybear, posted by bluedog on December 6, 2002, at 12:35:14
Hi bluedog,
You hit it right on the nose; it was close to 1 A.M. when I was typing the last note and I really should have been in bed. But I made up for it with a nap the next afternoon (today--Sat.) To answer your questions (hoping that I'm not repeating what I said previously). I had my first depressive episode back in '84, I started taking MAOI Parnate and then. after feeling much better, I decided to discontinue the drug several months later. Well, a few months after that, depression episode #2 started and the cycle began again.Since the relapses have occurred several times over the past 18 years every time I tried taking an AD "holiday", I have concluded that-- as is the case with millions of depressed people-- the likelihood of a relapse will always be high if there's no AD med in my system. This has been proven with statistics for countless people who have had just one or two depressive episodes. They get "cured" and then relapse again, if they try staying off AD meds. I've come to accept the situation as a lifelong condition-- in much the same way as a diabetic will always need insulin to maintain his/her correct chemical balance.
You said "I would really love to see whether the minimum 300 mg maintenance dose of Aurorix can prevent you relapsing back into depression. . ." Hey, that's the same question going around in my mind now, and only time will tell. And all I can say is, I sure hope it does prevent it!
You also asked if I had any other medical problems other than depression and anxiety. Psychologically, no, except for occasional insomnia, even when I'm feeling OK.
You asked some reallly good questions about my use of Clonazepam. The main reason my dr. got me started with this med back in July was to facilitate sleep while my depression was going full blast. We were using the Clon. as a supplement to the Zoloft. He also pointed out that since Clon. has a fairly long half-life, it could also provide some anti-anxiety protection into the following day. Now, here I am five months down the road, my depression is in remission, I'm taking the Aurorix, and we agree that the time is right to try getting off the benzo. You yourself caught the idea: I simply want to see how well I can sleep "on my own" now without it. Problems with Clonazepam? I haven't had any problems with itother than the usual side effect of drowsiness in the morning, but that goes away within an hour.
The only downside to being on a benzo for a while is that when the time comes to quit it, you have to taper off VERY slowly, and there's the possibility of rebound insomnia/anxiety or other not-so-pleasant withdrawal symptoms. So an ultra-slow taper is essential. Benzos have been a very controversial topic for the past 20 years. I mean, just type in the word "benzodiazepines" [hope I spelled it right] under any good search engine, and you'll see tens of thousands of websites, and some blast you with words like "abuse", "dependence", and "addiction". Some of it may be true for some people but there are also plenty of others out there, like you and me, who don't abuse benzos, don't get addicted, and know when and how to stop.
You can see by now that I like to ramble on and on. . . . I hope that this has been helpful.
Posted by bluedog on December 8, 2002, at 0:24:50
In reply to Re: Cubbybear, posted by cubbybear on December 7, 2002, at 9:37:19
Cubbybear
Thank you. I found your answers to my questions both helpful and informative.
I too am slowly but surely coming to the realisation that without an AD med in my system that I am very likely to relapse back into depression. I am now recovering from my fourth MAJOR depressive episode (though I've always had a rather life dampening dysthymia that I've had since my teens with the onset of my dysthimia approximately coinciding with the onset of my social anxiety).
What I have tended to find is that each time I recover from my Major depressive episodes and cease taking the AD meds that the onset time between recovery and relapse of the depression is becoming shorter and shorter each time.
I am now also at the stage where I am VERY RELUCTANTLY considering the prospect of having to remain on maintenance doses of AD meds and perhaps even the benzo's for the rest of my life in order for the depressions and my social anxiety to cease interfering with and disrupting my life and to allow me to realise my full potential and to constructively use the abilities and qualities that I was born with to the best of my ability. When I am not depressed I CAN actually recognise that I do have potential to contribute as a normal functioning member of society and of my local community and to be able to recognise that good friends, supportive and loving family and good health are the most important assets that any person can possess. Other things like material wealth and status can be a bonus but in comparison to the above points these are rather unimportant factors. Unfortunately when I'm in the depths of depression I am completely unable to recognise this distinction and of course those feeling of despair and failure bubble up to the surface and completely consume my thinking.
That having been said, in one sense I am actually GLAD that I have had this struggle with depression for most of my life. It has forced me to learn about myself and to obtain knowledge and insights that I would never have gained if I had just been able to breeze through life without having faced any adversity. Furthermore, I have gained knowledge and insights into issues about health, diet, exercise, spirituality, politics, medicine and religion that I believe have made me into a much better and well rounded person. Especially in the last 2-5 years I have become a much more sensitive, less cynical and understanding person and I especially have learnt not to judge others for there views, opinions and actions.(Not that I don't disapprove or disagree with others' opinions, but I make genuine attempts to understand the reasons for the way that people think or behave). And you know what!!!.....being less judgemental about others has actually reduced the levels of anxiety that I used to suffer. My illness has made me into a stronger person and I have developed coping skills that will stand me in good stead when and if adversity strikes me again.
Like yourself, once I am fully stabilised again from my current major depression (I'm almost at that point) I will be searching for a maintenance AD med that will allow me to function with NO side effects and hopefully with no long term damaging effects to my health. With my past positive experience with Aurorix I am hoping that this drug will do the trick for me until they are able to develop much more sophisticated (and side effect free) drugs to replace the current crop of AD (and anxiolytic) meds.
Again thanks for your thoughts on this matter and PLEASE, PLEASE do keep us all regualarly informed about how your Aurorix trial is going!!!
take care
bluedog
Posted by cubbybear on December 8, 2002, at 9:58:25
In reply to Re: Cubbybear » cubbybear, posted by bluedog on December 8, 2002, at 0:24:50
Hi bluedog,
Tonight I'm going to make it a (relatively) short note, since I'm not feeling particularly great (physically). I think I picked up an upper respiratory bug from one of my colleagues at work. Also have to try and break my bad habit of getting into bed late.
You gave me a lot of food for thought in your last note that I will reply to next time. For now, I just want to ask you a few things about our "favorite" topic, Aurorix.
I've come to realize that no two people are alike in the way they respond to a particular AD, whether it's the drug's efficacy, side effects, ease of withdrawal,, etc. Nevertheless, I was curious about your experience regarding two things:
How long, in terms of days or weeks did it take Aurorix to really kick in, i.e. provide the full anti-depressant effect for you? I've read and heard about some very wide parameters like a few days to 2 months. What was your experience?.
Second, did it ever poop out on you, or have you ever heard of anyone for whom it quit working? In all the research I've done, I came across only one person (on this message board) who claimed that the Aurorix was great until it pooped out after 6 months.
Maybe I'll have other questions for you about it in the future. Meanwhile, I'm going to try and rest up and will think up some brainy replies to your last note.
Take care. Will be in touch soon.
Posted by LyndaK on December 9, 2002, at 0:02:21
In reply to Re: Cubbybear, posted by cubbybear on December 8, 2002, at 9:58:25
Hi Steve,
Glad things are going well. I've enjoyed reading the dialog between you and Bluedog. I've come to the conclusion as well that I am probably someone who needs to be on an antidepressant all the time. Every time I've gone off I've relapsed, and it seemed like each relapse was worse than the one before. I used to not be able to identify with people who would contemplate taking their own life, but I eventually came to that place myself -- REALLY Scarey! I never want to go back there again, and if I have to take pills for the rest of my life to stay away from there, then I will take pills for the rest of my life! -- even yucky ones like Zoloft! (it did work, it just made me memory-impaired) But Remeron has been a Godsend to me because it works and it doesn't make me memory-impaired. 20 more pounds? -- So what. I went from a size 6 to size 10 - big deal. Overeating never was and still isn't my coping mechanism. The weight is a very small concession in exchange for "getting my life back"!
I'm sorry you're feeling under the weather. Rest and feel better soon. I'll be looking for your posts.
Lynda
Posted by cubbybear on December 9, 2002, at 9:12:58
In reply to Re: Cubbybear » cubbybear, posted by LyndaK on December 9, 2002, at 0:02:21
> Hi Steve,
>
> Glad things are going well. I've enjoyed reading the dialog between you and Bluedog. I've come to the conclusion as well that I am probably someone who needs to be on an antidepressant all the time. Every time I've gone off I've relapsed, and it seemed like each relapse was worse than the one before. I used to not be able to identify with people who would contemplate taking their own life, but I eventually came to that place myself -- REALLY Scarey! I never want to go back there again, and if I have to take pills for the rest of my life to stay away from there, then I will take pills for the rest of my life! -- even yucky ones like Zoloft! (it did work, it just made me memory-impaired) But Remeron has been a Godsend to me because it works and it doesn't make me memory-impaired. 20 more pounds? -- So what. I went from a size 6 to size 10 - big deal. Overeating never was and still isn't my coping mechanism. The weight is a very small concession in exchange for "getting my life back"!
>
> I'm sorry you're feeling under the weather. Rest and feel better soon. I'll be looking for your posts.
>
> Lynda
Thanks much Lynda. I share your sentiments exactly about the need to stay on ADs to prevent any other trips down to the depths. I'm glad that the Remeron is still working out and wish you the best.
Steve
Posted by bluedog on December 9, 2002, at 10:06:23
In reply to Re: Cubbybear, posted by cubbybear on December 8, 2002, at 9:58:25
Hi Cubbybear
I hope that your illness didn't take hold and that you feel better after a good nights sleep!! Now, in relation to your questions:
> You gave me a lot of food for thought in your last note that I will reply to next time. For now, I just want to ask you a few things about our "favorite" topic, Aurorix.
> I've come to realize that no two people are alike in the way they respond to a particular AD, whether it's the drug's efficacy, side effects, ease of withdrawal,, etc. Nevertheless, I was curious about your experience regarding two things:
> How long, in terms of days or weeks did it take Aurorix to really kick in, i.e. provide the full anti-depressant effect for you? I've read and heard about some very wide parameters like a few days to 2 months. What was your experience?.It was quite a few years ago that I was on the Aurorix so I'm really stretching my memory here but I'd say it started to kick in after about 2-3 weeks. However I was severely depressed at the time and therefore I believe that your circumstance is slightly different. From your posts I gather that you are relatively stable at the moment so I don't know if you will truly be able to get an accurate measure of the time that it actually "kicks in" for you. I believe that in your situation the acid test of the drug's effectiveness will be whether over an extended period of time it can actually prevent your depression from relapsing. This is why I am so interested in your Aurorix trial because you are taking it as a preventative measure rather than as a treatment for an acute case of depression.
> Second, did it ever poop out on you, or have you ever heard of anyone for whom it quit working? In all the research I've done, I came across only one person (on this message board) who claimed that the Aurorix was great until it pooped out after 6 months.
Aurorix never pooped out on me. In fact I believe it caused a complete remisision of my symptoms at the time and one day I simply decided to stop taking the drug because I was no longer depressed!! This remission of my depression lasted about 3 years. The depression only really came back because my social anxiety remained untreated. I have recently wondered whether my remission period would have been longer if I had continued to take the drug for a while longer under the proper supervision of my doctor at the time. I don't know whether it would have pooped out for me but I am a very strong believer that if you treat your body right with the proper diet,supplements adequate exercise and sleep and make sure you get some regular fun in your life, that any AD med is MUCH less likely to poop out. I have never experienced poop out with any AD meds I've taken. I have always blamed relapses in my depression on my own self abuse(such as alcohol abuse) and not following my own healthy lifestyle advice or my doctors advice (such as reducing or ceasing my Meds without my doctors knowledge). Only time will tell if Aurorix poops out on you but I believe that if you follow a healthy lifestyle and work in open consultation with your doctor that the chances of this happening will be minimised.
> Maybe I'll have other questions for you about it in the future. Meanwhile, I'm going to try and rest up and will think up some brainy replies to your last note.
I'll be glad to answer any further questions you may have!!
take care
bluedog
Posted by cubbybear on December 10, 2002, at 3:20:04
In reply to Re: Cubbybear » cubbybear, posted by bluedog on December 9, 2002, at 10:06:23
Hi bluedog,
I finally have a few daytime moments to sit down and write. I've been feeling quite crummy the last few days, with a minor upper-respiratory problem (cough, stuffed nose) and feeling prettty weak and run down. I've also had a couple of headaches and so the overall crappy feeling makes it hard for me to know what's really going on here--is it mostly a result of getting used to the Aurorix or is it mostly from the cold "bug", or a little of both? One can only speculate. . .
I liked your last note in which you replied to my questions about the Aurorix kick-in period and possibilities of poop out. You said you'd be glad to answer any other questions I have, and I certainly do have two things on my mind: Pls. answer:
1) What was the maximum dose of Aurorix that you were on? We all know that the official range is 300-600 mg. per day, but I've read a couple of professional abstracts in which some patients were given well above the max. 600 mg. (even up to 1200 mg.) with no detrimental effects. I've also seen postings on this website which hint that Aurorix works better at high doses, such as 900 mg. Do you have any experience or opinion on this? (I'm going to ask my dr. what his ideas are, but I'd like to hear yours in the meantime.)
Second, I'm very curious about the relative popularity or competition-- between Aurorix-MAOIs vs. the SSRI drugs in Australia. In the U.S., the MAOs now have just a fraction of the market and Aurorix is not even available. I sense that there IS a market for Aurorix throughout Europe and elsewhere, but I was curious about the competition between the MAOIs/Aurorix and SSRIs in your country. It's all about big money, you know.
Now, looking at your letter posted on Dec. 9, you talked about the fact that relapses happen more often when you try to stop ADs and I surely agree. I definitely agree about the need for good friends, supportive family and good health. But you're the first person I've heard say that he was actually glad to have had the struggles with depression, i.e. that it made you stronger and feel that you had gained so much in the long run. Well, all I can say is, that's wonderful, except it has not been true for me. I consider depression (or any psychic pain for that matter) to be the most agonizing pain a human being can experience, and my last depressive episode in July was the "ultimate." Maybe I should say that the depression itself did nothing but cause me suffering, but the life mistakes I was making (such as spending money frivolously) finally came out into the open so hopefully I've learned a lot from that.
You say that you'd like to search for a maintenance AD that will allow you to function with no side effects, and we both hope that Aurorix will prove to be the one. But as far as the development of ADs and anxiolytics that have no side effects--well, personally I doubt if such dream medications could ever be possible. Seems that every single drug in existence has at least one undesireable side effect.
Lastly, you mentioned the word "spirituality" in your note. This touches a deep personal interest of mine and it is certainly one of the many reasons that I chose to live in Thailand. I would like to get into subjects like this with you, but believe it would not be appropriate for psychobabble. So what should we do? Would you be willing to exchange E-mail adddresses? I would want to keep posting messages regarding the Aurorix trial so others could also benefit, but I have no problem with E-mail for non-drug-related correspondence. Maybe you can think this one over and let me know. . .Take care
This is the end of the thread.
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