![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by IsoM on December 5, 2002, at 0:49:01
Larry, I don't doubt for a minute the reports I've read about tumeric being a COX-2 inhibitor but I wonder in its ability as a pain killer. I'm sure that if I continue to use tumeric regularly, my joints will heal better (as much as they can) & feel better. But I've noticed no pain killing effects whatsoever. Simply because something works as an NSAID doesn't seem to necessarily means it can lessen the pain. I'm curious if tumeric (or curcumin) has any anti-prostaglandin properties. I'll do some more checking on the weekend to see what might be said about that.
So I'm curious, do you find your pain diminishes from tumeric? And if it does, do you think part of the benefit could be placebo effect? Not that I wouldn't mind having some placebo effect myself. I've temporarily stopped my Vioxx for the last week & half too. I want the tumeric to have a fair & lengthy (if need be) trial.
Posted by bluedog on December 5, 2002, at 2:08:11
In reply to for Larry - tumeric and anti-inflammatory effects, posted by IsoM on December 5, 2002, at 0:49:01
> Larry, I don't doubt for a minute the reports I've read about tumeric being a COX-2 inhibitor but I wonder in its ability as a pain killer. I'm sure that if I continue to use tumeric regularly, my joints will heal better (as much as they can) & feel better. But I've noticed no pain killing effects whatsoever. Simply because something works as an NSAID doesn't seem to necessarily means it can lessen the pain. I'm curious if tumeric (or curcumin) has any anti-prostaglandin properties. I'll do some more checking on the weekend to see what might be said about that.
>
> So I'm curious, do you find your pain diminishes from tumeric? And if it does, do you think part of the benefit could be placebo effect? Not that I wouldn't mind having some placebo effect myself. I've temporarily stopped my Vioxx for the last week & half too. I want the tumeric to have a fair & lengthy (if need be) trial.Hi Iso
I'm not sure if it was placebo or not but I've noticed definite reduction in my pain levels since re-commencing my turmeric trial. But then again it may be because, as Larry so succinctly put it, I was taking enough turmeric to COMPLETELY inhibit the cox-2 processes in my body. {I was taking 3 large heaped teaspoons per day :)}. By the way I am going to also give bromelain another trial as Larry suggested. Hopefully my "three pronged" anti-inflammatory cocktail of fish oil, turmeric and bromelain will do wonders for my knees and all the other little aches and pains that seem to be creeping up on me as I get older.
I don't know if you had the opportunity to read the article I had previously linked to about the natural cox-2 inhibitors. I believe this article can at least partially provide an explanation to your question of Larry. I particularly refer to the following quote from the article:
"A second factor holding back the progress of natural COX-2 inhibitors is their slow onset of relief. Unfortunately, there do not appear to be any natural anti-inflammatory/analgesic products that offer almost instantaneous relief of a magnitude close to aspirin or other NSAIDs. The consumer expectation of "relief in minutes" is destined to produce disappointment and derision if not adequately offset by education about these natural products. But if explained to them, the public will surely understand the virtue of natural products that provide gentle, effective, long-term relief."
Heres the link to the full article again:
see http://www.newhope.com/nutritionsciencenews/NSN_backs/Aug_00/cox2.cfm
By the way I'm having a few nightmares with my email account at the moment. I've just spent the entire morning changing internet service providers and will send a test email to you shortly. Hopefully it will work this time :)regards
bluedog
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 5, 2002, at 9:13:01
In reply to for Larry - tumeric and anti-inflammatory effects, posted by IsoM on December 5, 2002, at 0:49:01
> Larry, I don't doubt for a minute the reports I've read about tumeric being a COX-2 inhibitor but I wonder in its ability as a pain killer. I'm sure that if I continue to use tumeric regularly, my joints will heal better (as much as they can) & feel better. But I've noticed no pain killing effects whatsoever. Simply because something works as an NSAID doesn't seem to necessarily means it can lessen the pain. I'm curious if tumeric (or curcumin) has any anti-prostaglandin properties. I'll do some more checking on the weekend to see what might be said about that.
You're quite right that anti-inflammatory is not synonymous with analgesic. Usually, the former is also the latter.
Just a little bit about the chemistry. The enzyme most people know as COX (cyclo-oxygenase) has quite another name, PES, prostaglandin endoperoxide synthase. Anything that inhibits COX inhibits prostaglandin synthesis.
Curcumin goes beyond that, however. It inhibits NF-kappaB,IL-1, and IL-8, and other pro-inflammatory regulatory factors. It actually inhibits the expression of the genes coding for these molecules, blocking the whole inflammatory cascade. There is evidence that curcumin is particularly effective in rheumatoid arthritis for these latter reasons.
> So I'm curious, do you find your pain diminishes from tumeric?
It goes away totally, something I seldom get from prescription NSAIDS, even the pharmaceutical COX-2 inhibitors Mobicox, Vioxx, or Celebrex. Pain diminishes over one hour, and usually remains away entirely for 12-20 hours. I also seem to have a bit of a pain holiday, meaning diminished pain even after the main effect has worn off.
>And if it does, do you think part of the benefit could be placebo effect?
Not after all these trials. I live in constant pain, and I only take something when I grow weary of the pain, or it flares up. Turmeric works for me like nothing else. Perhaps I'm biased, but not placeboed.
>Not that I wouldn't mind having some placebo effect myself. I've temporarily stopped my Vioxx for the last week & half too. I want the tumeric to have a fair & lengthy (if need be) trial.
I'd hate to have you in pain using something that is ineffective for you. There are an amazing number of health benefits from tumeric, quite apart from the COX-2 thing. I just did a Medline search, and I'm quite astounded. I just read that curcumin inhibits an inositol pathway in the brain, suggesting it might have direct mood-regulatory effects.
Why don't you take some Vioxx, and see what it does *with* turmeric?
BTW, you mentioned shoulder pain as your big issue. If you have impingement, only surgery is likely to get past that. I had an anterior acromioplasty and cuff repair, and even though God wouldn't recognize what I have left, I function at 100% again. I can even throw fastball.
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 5, 2002, at 9:24:16
In reply to Re: for Larry - tumeric and anti-inflammatory effects » IsoM, posted by bluedog on December 5, 2002, at 2:08:11
> I'm not sure if it was placebo or not but I've noticed definite reduction in my pain levels since re-commencing my turmeric trial. But then again it may be because, as Larry so succinctly put it, I was taking enough turmeric to COMPLETELY inhibit the cox-2 processes in my body. {I was taking 3 large heaped teaspoons per day :)}. By the way I am going to also give bromelain another trial as Larry suggested. Hopefully my "three pronged" anti-inflammatory cocktail of fish oil, turmeric and bromelain will do wonders for my knees and all the other little aches and pains that seem to be creeping up on me as I get older.
A fourth prong would be adding GLA (gamma-linolenic acid). In the presence of fish oil, GLA is pushed down a pathway that leads to anti-inflammatory prostaglandins. One gram a day of borage oil, black currant oil, or evening primrose oil. Borage has something like 23% GLA, evening primrose about half that.
Posted by IsoM on December 5, 2002, at 9:49:53
In reply to Re: for Larry - tumeric and anti-inflammatory effects, posted by Larry Hoover on December 5, 2002, at 9:24:16
Bluedog, I’ve had a killer migraine for the last few days and yesterday was the wash-out period. Still sore and groggy. I’m sure I’d read somewhere that tumeric didn’t have pain killing properties but couldn’t be sure. I get incredibly stupid with migraines. So perhaps the link you provided was the one – I can’t be sure. Thanks for including that piece again. As for your email, I’ve learned patience over the years and figured I’d here from you, sooner or later. Hope you straighten out your IP and email services. BTW, do you live anywhere near Sydney with those out-of-control wildfires? Pretty scary for the residents, I’d wager.
Larry, I should’ve known that COX-2 was a prostaglandin, but as I explained, I’ve been stupid for the last few days. I was going to look more into it when I felt intelligent again. Thanks for giving me a bit more info on it and it’s other name. It’ll make do a good search easier. It’s possible tumeric hasn’t helped with my pain as Vioxx does little for me now too. I doubt that an anti-inflammatory action is all I need. Interesting about your operation. I have a friend who had the same done about 8 years ago and she’s had no trouble since. Both my shoulders are injured – something that happened as a small child. I’ll check more into it and talk to my doctor about it. I cringe at the thought of an operation again. I’ve had a couple before (diff reasons) and *hate* hospitals.
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 5, 2002, at 10:06:59
In reply to for Bluedog and Larry - tumeric , posted by IsoM on December 5, 2002, at 9:49:53
> Larry, I should’ve known that COX-2 was a prostaglandin, but as I explained, I’ve been stupid for the last few days.
I don't mean to be pedantic, but COX isn't a prostaglandin. It makes them from fatty acids. If you want to do a search, use the keyword eicosanoid as well.
Hope you feel better soon. BTW, one sign of impingment is a tendency to sleep with your arm raised near your head. I used to sleep with my forearm across my forehead.
Take care,
Lar
Posted by bluedog on December 5, 2002, at 11:28:07
In reply to Re: for Larry - tumeric and anti-inflammatory effects, posted by Larry Hoover on December 5, 2002, at 9:24:16
> > I'm not sure if it was placebo or not but I've noticed definite reduction in my pain levels since re-commencing my turmeric trial. But then again it may be because, as Larry so succinctly put it, I was taking enough turmeric to COMPLETELY inhibit the cox-2 processes in my body. {I was taking 3 large heaped teaspoons per day :)}. By the way I am going to also give bromelain another trial as Larry suggested. Hopefully my "three pronged" anti-inflammatory cocktail of fish oil, turmeric and bromelain will do wonders for my knees and all the other little aches and pains that seem to be creeping up on me as I get older.
>
> A fourth prong would be adding GLA (gamma-linolenic acid). In the presence of fish oil, GLA is pushed down a pathway that leads to anti-inflammatory prostaglandins. One gram a day of borage oil, black currant oil, or evening primrose oil. Borage has something like 23% GLA, evening primrose about half that.I consume plenty of linseeds (called flaxseeds in the US) pumpkin seeds and walnuts. I know these are good plant sources of omega-3's in the form of LNA which can be converted to EPA by the body. Do these plant food sources also contain GLA?
I also read somewhere that you need the "correct " ratio of Omega-3 to Omega-6 EFA's in your body for the body to produce the right balance of anti-inflammatory prostoglandin hormones as opposed to prostoglandins that promote inflammation. These prostoglandin hormones obviously have many and varied essential functions in our bodies including boosting the bodies immune function. You seem to be saying that GLA will actually tip the balance of prostoglandin synthesis towards the anti-inflammatory type? My very simple understanding of these matters is that omega-3 EFA's promote anti-inflammatory prostoglandins and omega-6 EFA's promote inflammatory and blood clotting prostoglandins.(I realise that this is a VERY simplistic view but it is one that I find helpful)
I see that this GLA factor complicates matters somewhat but I don't really understand how?. I know that in Western Society that our omega-3 to omega-6 balance is heavily (and unhealthfully) tilted in favour of omega-6. How difficult (or easy) would it be to tilt the balance the other way and to get too much omega-3 in the system?
Can too much turmeric, fish oil, GLA and bromelain actually inhibit the production of the omega-6 related prostoglandins thereby creating a whole new set of health problems? For instance you commented that I was probably taking too much turmeric in a previous post!
Finally how do I put all these elements together in my diet and supplement plan? To put it another way what is the relationship and the correct balance between cox-1, cox-2, the inhibition of cox-1 and cox-2, Omega-3 EFA's, Omega-6 EFA's and GLA?
It seems to get pretty complicated pretty quickly!!!!
thanks
bluedog
Posted by bluedog on December 5, 2002, at 11:42:04
In reply to for Bluedog and Larry - tumeric , posted by IsoM on December 5, 2002, at 9:49:53
> Bluedog, I’ve had a killer migraine for the last few days and yesterday was the wash-out period. Still sore and groggy. I’m sure I’d read somewhere that tumeric didn’t have pain killing properties but couldn’t be sure. I get incredibly stupid with migraines. So perhaps the link you provided was the one – I can’t be sure. Thanks for including that piece again. As for your email, I’ve learned patience over the years and figured I’d here from you, sooner or later. Hope you straighten out your IP and email services. BTW, do you live anywhere near Sydney with those out-of-control wildfires? Pretty scary for the residents, I’d wager.
>
IsoFortunately I live a safe distance from Sydney (as in thousands of kilometres away!!) The most disgusting thing about these fires is that the majority of the fires are lit by arsonists. Where I live some voluntary fire fighters actually went to jail for lighting the very fires they were fighting a few years back. (It's like dracula being put in charge of the blood bank)
By the way we had a total eclipse of the sun in Australia yesterday. There was a very eery light as the sun disappeared behind the moon but it was pretty fascinating!!!
I have spent the afternoon trying to set up a hotmail account. I have never had such a frustrating experience in my life. The site was so ridiculously slow that I simply gave up. I then tried to set up a Yahoo account. I dutifully filled in all the forms but when I hit the submit button it came up with a message that that function was down but that their technicians were working at fixing the problem. (AAARRRRgg!!!)
I'm going to try again tomorrow. I will need to learn to have as much patience as you do :)
regards
bluedog
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 5, 2002, at 12:02:43
In reply to Re: GLA as a fourth prong? » Larry Hoover, posted by bluedog on December 5, 2002, at 11:28:07
> > A fourth prong would be adding GLA (gamma-linolenic acid). In the presence of fish oil, GLA is pushed down a pathway that leads to anti-inflammatory prostaglandins. One gram a day of borage oil, black currant oil, or evening primrose oil. Borage has something like 23% GLA, evening primrose about half that.
>
> I consume plenty of linseeds (called flaxseeds in the US) pumpkin seeds and walnuts. I know these are good plant sources of omega-3's in the form of LNA which can be converted to EPA by the body. Do these plant food sources also contain GLA?Not appreciable amounts, which is why I mentioned those specific oils: borage, black currant, and evening primrose.
> I also read somewhere that you need the "correct " ratio of Omega-3 to Omega-6 EFA's in your body for the body to produce the right balance of anti-inflammatory prostoglandin hormones as opposed to prostoglandins that promote inflammation. These prostoglandin hormones obviously have many and varied essential functions in our bodies including boosting the bodies immune function. You seem to be saying that GLA will actually tip the balance of prostoglandin synthesis towards the anti-inflammatory type? My very simple understanding of these matters is that omega-3 EFA's promote anti-inflammatory prostoglandins and omega-6 EFA's promote inflammatory and blood clotting prostoglandins.(I realise that this is a VERY simplistic view but it is one that I find helpful)
Generally correct. Omega-3s go to one of the three possible types of prostaglandins, and all of that type are anti-inflammatory. Omega-6's go to one of two types, depending in large part on other processes taking place simultaneously. One of those conditions is the concentration of omega-3s in the body at the same moment.
> I see that this GLA factor complicates matters somewhat but I don't really understand how?. I know that in Western Society that our omega-3 to omega-6 balance is heavily (and unhealthfully) tilted in favour of omega-6. How difficult (or easy) would it be to tilt the balance the other way and to get too much omega-3 in the system?That would be almost impossible for most people, but the Inuit have been doing it for centuries. Their traditional diets provide 14-20 grams a day of EPA and DHA, and very low levels of omega-6 fats. They don't suffer for it. Quite the contrary, in fact.
GLA is an omega-6 fat. It's got one more unsaturated position than the far more common omega-6, linoleic acid. LA is one of the main constituents of vegetable oils of all sorts.
Because it's already unsaturated once more than that other omega-6 fatty acid, it's already heading down the path that we want. You don't have to try and influence things at this stage. GLA is elongated to dihomogammalinolenic acid (DGLA). Sorry, but that's what it's called. At this point, the direction the fatty acid takes really matters. One path takes it on to arichidonic acid, and pro-inflammatory prostaglandins, leukotrienes, cytokines. The other one takes it directly to prostaglandin synthesis, and it becomes anti-inflammatory. The presence of fish oil pushes towards anti-inflammatory outcomes for GLA. So, fish oil is anti-inflammatory, but fish oil plus GLA is doubly anti-inflammatory.
> Can too much turmeric, fish oil, GLA and bromelain actually inhibit the production of the omega-6 related prostoglandins thereby creating a whole new set of health problems? For instance you commented that I was probably taking too much turmeric in a previous post!You need some enzyme function for a lot of reasons. Better to regulate the raw materials than the machinery (enzymes) that processes them. I cannot foresee a negative health consequence of limiting omega-6. If anything, most people won't come close to doing anywhere near enough.
> Finally how do I put all these elements together in my diet and supplement plan? To put it another way what is the relationship and the correct balance between cox-1, cox-2, the inhibition of cox-1 and cox-2, Omega-3 EFA's, Omega-6 EFA's and GLA?
Simply ignore considerations of omega-6 (other than by ensuring some intake of GLA). Omega-6 intake from processed foods and vegetable oils will be quite enough. Treat you symptoms, e.g. inflammation and pain, and try to get your dietary balance more towards omega-3. Turmeric actually regulates the genes that promote inflammation, so it's not all a COX thingie. The thing is that turmeric reduces the formation of the COX enzyme, so too much is probably, well, too much.
> It seems to get pretty complicated pretty quickly!!!!
>
> thanks
> bluedogSo simplify. More fish. Less vegetable oil. If meat or eggs, go for free-range versions. Moderate use of anti-inflammatories.
Posted by bluedog on December 5, 2002, at 13:15:46
In reply to Re: GLA as a fourth prong?, posted by Larry Hoover on December 5, 2002, at 12:02:43
>
> Not appreciable amounts, which is why I mentioned those specific oils: borage, black currant, and evening primrose.
>Would drinking black currant juice do the trick??
>
> GLA is an omega-6 fat. It's got one more unsaturated position than the far more common omega-6, linoleic acid. LA is one of the main constituents of vegetable oils of all sorts.
>
> Because it's already unsaturated once more than that other omega-6 fatty acid, it's already heading down the path that we want. You don't have to try and influence things at this stage. GLA is elongated to dihomogammalinolenic acid (DGLA). Sorry, but that's what it's called. At this point, the direction the fatty acid takes really matters. One path takes it on to arichidonic acid, and pro-inflammatory prostaglandins, leukotrienes, cytokines. The other one takes it directly to prostaglandin synthesis, and it becomes anti-inflammatory. The presence of fish oil pushes towards anti-inflammatory outcomes for GLA. So, fish oil is anti-inflammatory, but fish oil plus GLA is doubly anti-inflammatory.So consuming GLA (for example by taking evening primrose supplements) without fish oil would have the same effect as consuming lots of sunflower oil and actually produce a pro-inflammatory effect? Is this another example of why supplements should not be taken in isolation but synergistic relationships need to be considered? (just like with the B-compex vitamins)
>
> > Can too much turmeric, fish oil, GLA and bromelain actually inhibit the production of the omega-6 related prostoglandins thereby creating a whole new set of health problems? For instance you commented that I was probably taking too much turmeric in a previous post!
>
> You need some enzyme function for a lot of reasons. Better to regulate the raw materials than the machinery (enzymes) that processes them.Can you elaborate a little more on this statement? I don't fully understand how I can regulate EITHER the raw materials OR the machinery (enzymes). I thought that manipulating the raw materials (ie what you actually put in your body) had an intimate relationship to the enzyme machinery that processes them. I see this as a sort of chicken and egg situation. In other words the raw materials actually produce the enzymes that process the raw materials. But how are the enzymes produced in the first place to process the raw materials that produce the enzymes? Or are the enzymes already contained within the raw materials? I hope I haven't confused you?
> > Finally how do I put all these elements together in my diet and supplement plan? To put it another way what is the relationship and the correct balance between cox-1, cox-2, the inhibition of cox-1 and cox-2, Omega-3 EFA's, Omega-6 EFA's and GLA?
>
> Simply ignore considerations of omega-6 (other than by ensuring some intake of GLA). Omega-6 intake from processed foods and vegetable oils will be quite enough. Treat you symptoms, e.g. inflammation and pain, and try to get your dietary balance more towards omega-3. Turmeric actually regulates the genes that promote inflammation, so it's not all a COX thingie. The thing is that turmeric reduces the formation of the COX enzyme, so too much is probably, well, too much.
>
>
> Moderate use of anti-inflammatories.I assume you include natural inflammatories such as bromelain and turmeric in this description? By the way what is the anti-inflammatory action of bromelain? (ie how does it work?) Bromelain also can help as a digestive aid (or perhaps just eating plenty of raw pineapple will do the trick?)
Thanks for your endless patience with my endless questions.
bluedog
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 5, 2002, at 14:25:54
In reply to Re: GLA as a fourth prong? » Larry Hoover, posted by bluedog on December 5, 2002, at 13:15:46
> >
> > Not appreciable amounts, which is why I mentioned those specific oils: borage, black currant, and evening primrose.
> >
>
> Would drinking black currant juice do the trick??It's in the seeds, so juice won't have any.
> >
> > GLA is an omega-6 fat. It's got one more unsaturated position than the far more common omega-6, linoleic acid. LA is one of the main constituents of vegetable oils of all sorts.
> >
> > Because it's already unsaturated once more than that other omega-6 fatty acid, it's already heading down the path that we want. You don't have to try and influence things at this stage. GLA is elongated to dihomogammalinolenic acid (DGLA). Sorry, but that's what it's called. At this point, the direction the fatty acid takes really matters. One path takes it on to arichidonic acid, and pro-inflammatory prostaglandins, leukotrienes, cytokines. The other one takes it directly to prostaglandin synthesis, and it becomes anti-inflammatory. The presence of fish oil pushes towards anti-inflammatory outcomes for GLA. So, fish oil is anti-inflammatory, but fish oil plus GLA is doubly anti-inflammatory.
>
> So consuming GLA (for example by taking evening primrose supplements) without fish oil would have the same effect as consuming lots of sunflower oil and actually produce a pro-inflammatory effect?Yes, unfortunately. I think that for a lot of people, not seeing benefits from GLA comes from not realizing that they also need to eat fish, or take fish oil, too.
>Is this another example of why supplements should not be taken in isolation but synergistic relationships need to be considered? (just like with the B-compex vitamins)
That's a good example.
> >
> > > Can too much turmeric, fish oil, GLA and bromelain actually inhibit the production of the omega-6 related prostoglandins thereby creating a whole new set of health problems? For instance you commented that I was probably taking too much turmeric in a previous post!
> >
> > You need some enzyme function for a lot of reasons. Better to regulate the raw materials than the machinery (enzymes) that processes them.
>
> Can you elaborate a little more on this statement? I don't fully understand how I can regulate EITHER the raw materials OR the machinery (enzymes).Raw materials = food/supplements. Enzymes are stupid. If the raw materials come along, they act. Increasing particular raw materials is analogous to increasing particular products.
B- vitamins make enzymes work better. Inhibitors like curcumin make enzymes work less well. I was really thinking about inhibitors, as I was thinking about your high doses of turmeric. Blocking COX-2 will reduce the effects of having too much omega-6 from vegetable oils, but I think it's better to leave the enzymes alone, and feed them different raw materials (i.e. give them fish oil instead of vegetable oil to do their tricks on).
>I thought that manipulating the raw materials (ie what you actually put in your body) had an intimate relationship to the enzyme machinery that processes them. I see this as a sort of chicken and egg situation. In other words the raw materials actually produce the enzymes that process the raw materials.
No, the enzymes are derived directly from transcribed genes. There are feedback loops that tell your body how to adjust the concentration of the enzymes (up-regulation or down-regulation).
Enzymes are like shoes. They wear out, and you need new ones. One particular enzyme molecule might last 1-3 weeks. You're making new ones all the time. And, you do interact with your diet, as enzyme concentrations probably fluctuate with long-term trends in diet.
>But how are the enzymes produced in the first place to process the raw materials that produce the enzymes? Or are the enzymes already contained within the raw materials? I hope I haven't confused you?
This is useful to have this discussion, non?
Enzymes are proteins, whose structure is a literal transcription of the DNA coding. DNA is copied to messenger-RNA, which is transported to organelles (endoplasmic reticulum) in the cell for manufacture of the protein. The protein is folded in a very special way, often including metal ions (e.g. zinc or selenium), and activated by co-enzymes like the B-vitamins.
Some food faddists argue that we need to eat raw foods to allow us to absorb the natural enzymes, but your stomach digests proteins. It is unlikely that natural enzymes make it past the stomach, let alone have any activity in our body. (My opinion.) Perhaps that is a source of some confusion?
> > > Finally how do I put all these elements together in my diet and supplement plan? To put it another way what is the relationship and the correct balance between cox-1, cox-2, the inhibition of cox-1 and cox-2, Omega-3 EFA's, Omega-6 EFA's and GLA?
> >
> > Simply ignore considerations of omega-6 (other than by ensuring some intake of GLA). Omega-6 intake from processed foods and vegetable oils will be quite enough. Treat you symptoms, e.g. inflammation and pain, and try to get your dietary balance more towards omega-3. Turmeric actually regulates the genes that promote inflammation, so it's not all a COX thingie. The thing is that turmeric reduces the formation of the COX enzyme, so too much is probably, well, too much.
> >
> >
> > Moderate use of anti-inflammatories.
>
> I assume you include natural inflammatories such as bromelain and turmeric in this description? By the way what is the anti-inflammatory action of bromelain? (ie how does it work?) Bromelain also can help as a digestive aid (or perhaps just eating plenty of raw pineapple will do the trick?)I'm not sure about bromelain. Pineapple is good, but commercial bromelain comes from the stem. I think there's a structural difference there. I'll have to come back to this.
> Thanks for your endless patience with my endless questions.
>
> bluedogQuestions keep me informed, too. Glad to do it.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 5, 2002, at 15:02:01
In reply to Re: GLA as a fourth prong?, posted by Larry Hoover on December 5, 2002, at 14:25:54
> Some food faddists argue that we need to eat raw foods to allow us to absorb the natural enzymes, but your stomach digests proteins. It is unlikely that natural enzymes make it past the stomach, let alone have any activity in our body. (My opinion.) Perhaps that is a source of some confusion?
Time to eat my words (I wonder how that affects enzyme activity?).
Bromelain is apparently absorbed in appreciable amounts in its intact state.
Bromelain is actually a mixture of similar enzymes and other unidentified compounds, all deriving from pineapple stems. There seems to be some evidence that bromelain blocks arichidonic-type (type 2 prostaglandin) pro-inflammatory effects, without affecting COX activity. Probable mechanisms involve bradykinin and interleukin inhibition, but that's probably not the important message. It seems that bromelain would be complementary to other anti-inflammatory supplements, rather than duplicating the actions of others previously mentioned.
Lar
Posted by sjb on December 6, 2002, at 9:24:29
In reply to Re: for Larry - tumeric and anti-inflammatory effects, posted by Larry Hoover on December 5, 2002, at 9:13:01
About that part of Inositol blocking . . .I just starting taking Turmeric (1/2 teaspon - is that enough?) but have been taking 1 tbls of Inositol for a while. Should I not be combining these things?
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 6, 2002, at 9:30:56
In reply to Re: for Larry - tumeric and anti-inflammatory effects, posted by sjb on December 6, 2002, at 9:24:29
> About that part of Inositol blocking . . .I just starting taking Turmeric (1/2 teaspon - is that enough?) but have been taking 1 tbls of Inositol for a while. Should I not be combining these things?
You could safely take more turmeric. Let your symptoms guide you. Don't worry about the inositol thing. Somehow, inositol is tied up in mood regulation, but I don't know that anybody knows just how. Some people have elevated mood with inositol supplementation, some don't.
Just pay attention to how your body reacts to them. How your body works in the only important thing to you.
Lar
Posted by sjb on December 6, 2002, at 9:33:11
In reply to Re: bromelain, posted by Larry Hoover on December 5, 2002, at 15:02:01
A lot of this thread is WAY over my head, so I'll just ask, if I may, what are you taking? And what would you recommend to an aging athlete with a history of depression, the atypcial variety, and achey sciatic/hamstrings?
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 6, 2002, at 10:48:06
In reply to What are you taking Larry?, posted by sjb on December 6, 2002, at 9:33:11
> A lot of this thread is WAY over my head, so I'll just ask, if I may, what are you taking?
I've got dozens and dozens of supplement bottles, in more than one place in my apartment. But I don't take anything religiously. I'm just not organized that way, which is to say, I'm disorganized. I'm your quintessential absent-minded professor. I get so distracted by my trains of thought that I may forget to eat altogether, let alone remember to take my a.m. supps (those that stimulate), or my core supps (those that I try to take with my biggest meal). As I now live alone, I have few cues during my day to have the "eat supplement" light flash on. I tend to bounce off deficiency states, where symptoms push me to get more focussed, rather than having a maintenance schedule that lets me coast along in a healthier state. I know what you're asking, but I don't know what to answer. I take a vast array of supplements, just not in any particular order/frequency/dose. I could make good use of a personal assistant, ya know?
>And what would you recommend to an aging athlete with a history of depression, the atypcial variety, and achey sciatic/hamstrings?
Three key 'types' of nutrients should be in the core of any supplementation plan.
1. Water solubles. These are your B's and C. A b-complex, not separate B's, unless you are treating particular symptoms, but that would be a specific B supplemented above and beyond the B complex. You could go up to B-50 three times a day, or a time-release B-100. Your urine will turn bright yellow, but all that shows is that your blood is heavily dosed with available B's. Your tissues are all compartmentalized, separated from the blood by membranes. The B's have to be high in the blood to maximize the opportunity for tissue uptake. Vitamin C is vastly under-rated as a nutrient, IMHO. The new DRI (Daily Reference Intake) is below 100 mg, even for pregnant and nursing women! Give me a break. 2 grams a day is more like it. Split the dose up for best effect.
2. Anti-oxidants and minerals
Vitamin C (mentioned above), vit E (mixed tocopherols) 400-800 I.U. and alpha-lipoic acid 200 mg.(the universal anti-oxidant, which recycles E and C, as well as acting on its own).
The reason I put minerals in here is because the line blurs for them. Selenium 200-400 mcg (that's micrograms), zinc 30-50 mg, magnesium 200 mg. A multi-mineral tablet is a good idea, but watch the combined zinc and selenium so you don't exceed those levels.3. Lipids and lipid-solubles.
This is where your fish oil, lecithin and phosphatidylserine (phospholipids), vitamins A and D come in. Fish oil has been discussed at length elsewhere. Phospholipids are important because they make sure you've got all the building blocks for neuronal membranes. Vitamin A and D get stored in the body, so cod liver oil once a week or so will do the trick.
I'm having trouble drawing a line. My brain works on the "if this, then that" kind of thinking, so it really depends a lot on the "if this" part.
Oh yeah, you already told me some ifs. Heh heh. Achy muscles could mean calcium and/or magnesium deficiency. If you tried a liquid cal/mag supplement, with vitamin E, you may find that achy muscles clear up within a week. Do you tend to spasm?
I tend to link atypical depression to burnout, but I may be totally off on that. All the things I mentioned would help with that.
If you tend to inflammation, you could try adding bromelain and/or turmeric. There are other threads on those.
Posted by bluedog on December 6, 2002, at 11:24:06
In reply to Re: What are you taking Larry?, posted by Larry Hoover on December 6, 2002, at 10:48:06
> Vitamin C is vastly under-rated as a nutrient, IMHO. The new DRI (Daily Reference Intake) is below 100 mg, even for pregnant and nursing women! Give me a break. 2 grams a day is more like it. Split the dose up for best effect.
>Larry, I agree that up 2g of Vitamin C would be OK but this would probably be a safe upper limit. However for anyone with chronic fatigue symptoms I would be VERY careful about taking too much Vitamin C as it can actually have the opposite effect to that desired and can act as a PRO-Oxidant under certain conditions. For example see the following link:
http://www.cfsresearch.org/cfs/
> I tend to link atypical depression to burnout, but I may be totally off on that. All the things I mentioned would help with that.
>I have the same philosophy. If you have CFS and burnout I don't think you are far off base with this view. Really I consider this view much more in line with ancient medical systems as practiced by Chinese medicine practitioners or Ayervedic medicine practitioners who have made this connection for thousands of years. I think it is ironic (and arrogant) that modern medical researchers have only recently started to "discover" this philosophy and then have the nerve to take the credit for their so called discoveries.
Keep well
bluedog
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 6, 2002, at 12:15:35
In reply to Re: Vitamin C » Larry Hoover, posted by bluedog on December 6, 2002, at 11:24:06
> > Vitamin C is vastly under-rated as a nutrient, IMHO. The new DRI (Daily Reference Intake) is below 100 mg, even for pregnant and nursing women! Give me a break. 2 grams a day is more like it. Split the dose up for best effect.
> >
>
> Larry, I agree that up 2g of Vitamin C would be OK but this would probably be a safe upper limit. However for anyone with chronic fatigue symptoms I would be VERY careful about taking too much Vitamin C as it can actually have the opposite effect to that desired and can act as a PRO-Oxidant under certain conditions. For example see the following link:
>
> http://www.cfsresearch.org/cfs/For a more specific link on that site, see:
http://www.cfsresearch.org/cfs/cheney/34nf.htmAgain, the interplay between nutrients is emphasized.
> > I tend to link atypical depression to burnout, but I may be totally off on that. All the things I mentioned would help with that.
> >
>
> I have the same philosophy. If you have CFS and burnout I don't think you are far off base with this view. Really I consider this view much more in line with ancient medical systems as practiced by Chinese medicine practitioners or Ayervedic medicine practitioners who have made this connection for thousands of years. I think it is ironic (and arrogant) that modern medical researchers have only recently started to "discover" this philosophy and then have the nerve to take the credit for their so called discoveries.
>
> Keep well
> bluedogWestern medicine has been characterized as allopathy, a philosophy which seeks to produce an effect opposite to the presenting symptom, i.e. symptom management. Frankly, you're not likely to get anything else from what we call M.D.'s.
That said, there are far too many quacks in the fields of naturopathy and homeopathy, and related disciplines. If you can find an M.D. practising what is known as orthomolecular medicine, you're probably going to find someone who integrates nutritional therapy with the best of Western medicine.
Posted by bluedog on December 6, 2002, at 12:47:37
In reply to Re: Vitamin C, posted by Larry Hoover on December 6, 2002, at 12:15:35
>>
> For a more specific link on that site, see:
> http://www.cfsresearch.org/cfs/cheney/34nf.htm
>
LarryThat was the article that I actually intended to link to. I honestly don't know what happened as I linked to the sites homepage instead. I think I must be over-tired as it is well past midnight where I live here in Australia. I'm going to go to bed now and try again tomorrow (actually I should say later today as it's already 7 December here).
Thanks for adding in the correct link!!
bluedog
Posted by sjb on December 6, 2002, at 13:13:13
In reply to Re: What are you taking Larry?, posted by Larry Hoover on December 6, 2002, at 10:48:06
You are also dead on about the atypical/burnout. I have often gone through quite a dark period after a major endurance event or a heavy training period.
Posted by McPac on December 6, 2002, at 16:18:21
In reply to Re: for Larry - tumeric and anti-inflammatory effects, posted by Larry Hoover on December 5, 2002, at 9:13:01
"I just read that curcumin inhibits an inositol pathway in the brain, suggesting it might have direct mood-regulatory effects."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Larry---curcumin "inhibits an inositol pathway in the brain"
What is another word for "inhibits" here (just want to understand what 'inhibits a pathway in the brain" means)...does it mean "enables" or "creates" the pathway?
More importantly, I know that in some clinical trials that 12 mg. of inositol/daily has had positive theraputic effects on OCD. Could curcumin, based on your findings that "curcumin inhibits an inositol pathway in the brain", be effectively used in combination w/ inositol to further help some OCD sufferers? I would be VERY grateful for any response! THANKS!
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 6, 2002, at 17:57:58
In reply to LARRY re:tumeric , posted by McPac on December 6, 2002, at 16:18:21
> "I just read that curcumin inhibits an inositol pathway in the brain, suggesting it might have direct mood-regulatory effects."
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Larry---curcumin "inhibits an inositol pathway in the brain"
>
> What is another word for "inhibits" here (just want to understand what 'inhibits a pathway in the brain" means)...does it mean "enables" or "creates" the pathway?An inhibitor reduces the intensity of a signal, which in this case, is the binding of a neurotransmitter to a receptor. The inhibitor can do so by two different processes, competitive or noncompetitive inhibition. To visualize the two, consider holding something in your hand, where your hand represents the receptor. If the hand is empty, it can grasp something (e.g. the target neurotransmitter), but if it already full (occupied by the inhibitor), you have to let go before you can grab something new. That's how competitive inhibition works, where a non-signalling substance keeps a receptor busy by latching onto it temporarily. A non-competitive inhibitor actual changes the shape of the receptor so it doesn't work as well (or not at all), which could be represented by something holding your hand closed up like a fist, preventing you from grasping something (the neurotransmitter). Curcumin, the stuff in turmeric, non-competitively inhibits inositol receptors, by binding on the side of the receptor and changing its shape.
What does that mean? Well, it depends. Other substances that inhibit the same receptor are ethanol (booze), chlorpromazine (an anti-psychotic), caffeine, magnesium, and some anti-epileptics.
If the receptor is activated, it causes calcium to be released from the neuron, which excites other neurons and facilitates the release of neurotransmitters. So, by blocking calcium release, these inhibitors reduce neuronal activity. That's not inherently good or bad. It all depends on what else is going on.
> More importantly, I know that in some clinical trials that 12 mg. of inositol/daily has had positive theraputic effects on OCD. Could curcumin, based on your findings that "curcumin inhibits an inositol pathway in the brain", be effectively used in combination w/ inositol to further help some OCD sufferers? I would be VERY grateful for any response! THANKS!I couldn't say for sure, but it looks like this effect is counter-productive in OCD and depression. It has recently been found that the mood stabilizers for bipolar disorder, lithium, valproate, and carbemazepine, all reduce inositol-signalling. Trials of inositol as a treatment for depression, panic disorder, and OCD are positive and promising, as are animal models for those disorders. So, an inhibitor probably isn't a good thing to add to the mix. That said, coffee or tea probably does the same thing, and you didn't even know it.
This is the end of the thread.
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