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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Roman on November 17, 2002, at 15:29:14
In reply to Re: This is true, posted by linkadge on November 17, 2002, at 15:14:28
Posted by linkadge on November 17, 2002, at 18:45:53
In reply to How much do you take? -- (nm) » linkadge, posted by Roman on November 17, 2002, at 15:29:14
I take six of the standard 180/120
capsuls a day. I also eat lots of
Tuna and a few omega 3 eggs a week.I am actually quite pleased, as mental
illness has been quite prominant in my
family for a few generations.
You can get Omega 3 from plant sources
as well, (like flax) but it is not EPA or
DHA it is something that the body can
convert to EPA and DHA. It is being proposed
that some individuals my have a hampared
ability to make this conversion, and thats
why taking EPA DHA (in fish oil) - which
goes directly to the brain without conversion -
helps some so much.I figure it will cose around $200 a year
for the fish oil. For the improvment I
am seeing I would be willing to pay much
more.Linkadge
Posted by oracle on November 17, 2002, at 22:26:12
In reply to This is true, posted by linkadge on November 17, 2002, at 7:06:50
Dopamine is so misunderstood that it
> is often unstudied in mental disease.I would suspect this is not true. All thought disorders involve dopamine. The AP's effect
dopamine, and many movement disorders have a
dopamine facet. However, AP's, by effecting dopamine, cause movement disorders, so it is tricky.
Posted by Roman on November 18, 2002, at 0:12:57
In reply to Re: How much do you take? --, posted by linkadge on November 17, 2002, at 18:45:53
I bought some a few months ago but stopped taking them when I started the AD.
I'm going to try it again for awhile and see what happens.
I have Eskimo3 and they're quite expensive. Is there a brand you suggest or one I should not purchase?
Thanks for the info.
-Roman
Posted by linkadge on November 18, 2002, at 13:03:01
In reply to Re: How much do you take? -- » linkadge, posted by Roman on November 18, 2002, at 0:12:57
What I mean to say was unstudied in
Depression. Mentioned was the fact
that amineptine was removed from the market
because it made well people feel better.I think Dopaminergic drugs are generally
considered an evil feel good. Like
a cocaine high. I thihk the government
wants us all very happy and non agressive.Linkadge :)
Posted by Kari on November 18, 2002, at 14:27:17
In reply to Re: This is true, posted by Larry Hoover on November 17, 2002, at 14:20:27
Posted by Kari on November 18, 2002, at 14:33:14
In reply to Re: This is true, posted by linkadge on November 17, 2002, at 15:14:28
Thanks for sharing your experience with fish oil. I am glad to hear this has really helped you.
Kari.
Posted by oracle on November 18, 2002, at 14:57:06
In reply to Re: How much do you take? --, posted by linkadge on November 18, 2002, at 13:03:01
> I think Dopaminergic drugs are generally
> considered an evil feel good.Actually they shut down thoughts and emotions
Posted by Dinah on November 18, 2002, at 16:54:48
In reply to Re: How much do you take? --, posted by oracle on November 18, 2002, at 14:57:06
Could you tell me more about that?
Posted by oracle on November 18, 2002, at 18:57:53
In reply to Re: Do they really? » oracle, posted by Dinah on November 18, 2002, at 16:54:48
> Could you tell me more about that?
Read up an any AP.
Posted by Dinah on November 18, 2002, at 20:46:45
In reply to Re: Do they really?, posted by oracle on November 18, 2002, at 18:57:53
I'm sorry, oracle. I was overtired and my post was brief. I've read and read on risperdal, but your post struck me, in its brevity, by something I was trying to put my finger on in my experience of risperdal.
I didn't find it stopped thought, perhaps because i wasn't on it at a high dose or for very long. But it stopped emotions dead almost immediately. So I asked you to say more in the hopes that it would help me clarify my opinions about the med further.
But yes, of course I'll keep searching.
Dinah
Posted by oracle on November 19, 2002, at 0:24:21
In reply to Re: Antipsychotics » oracle, posted by Dinah on November 18, 2002, at 20:46:45
Dinah,
Give me a little bit and I will be more verbrose.
Many changes at work today, I am tired.
Posted by Dinah on November 19, 2002, at 4:35:43
In reply to Re: Antipsychotics, posted by oracle on November 19, 2002, at 0:24:21
I understand completely, Oracle. Sorry to hear about the changes, they can be stressful. If you get the chance, no pressure.
Take care.
Dinah
Posted by Kari on November 19, 2002, at 13:53:48
In reply to Re: How much do you take? --, posted by oracle on November 18, 2002, at 14:57:06
> I think Dopaminergic drugs are generally
> considered an evil feel good.>Actually they shut down thoughts and emotions
Aren't dopaminergic drugs dopamine agonists? :)
It's true- an excess of this neurotransmitter creates, among other problems, some kind of "high" which feels evil due to its abnormality.
As for APs, the shutting down of thoughts and emotions depends on the problem and the dosage. In cases in which overstimulation causes emotional blunting and a sense of being "out of it", a very low dose of an AP can actually allow the person to regain access to emotions (not that it's so easy:)) and to feel somewhat "real" again. On higher doses it will cause a shutdown of everything, I guess.
Posted by oracle on November 19, 2002, at 14:57:33
In reply to Re: How much do you take? -- » oracle, posted by Kari on November 19, 2002, at 13:53:48
> Aren't dopaminergic drugs dopamine agonists? :)
That is a good question. Many on this board seem to think it is more/less, ie, I need more or less dopamine. It is far more complex than that.
One can show a decrease or increase at some point
but this is just the tip of the iceberg. Also if you effect one NT you effect them all.An NT has many functions, dopamine effects thought and movement. Few seem to be aware
of the serious long term effects of AP's, causing movement disorders. Everyone taking the older AP's will have these problems if they take them long enough.So I think that if your understanding does not take into account the complexity then making treatment choices based on the logic dopamine=good=more is not reasonable. Nor is
it reasonable to see this all as a government plot.Hear this:
We have 50 years experience with the AP's, and they all cause disfiguring movement disorders
long term. Given these drugs work with dopamine I would tread carefully here. You are free to ignore the history for these meds, but remember the meds themselves cover up EPS and TD (movement disorders) and if are some point you are afflected
the damage and movement disorder is permanent.This is not a crit of Essencial Fatty Acids or "Fish Oil". I suspect it is the anti-oxident
effects that are causing many to get better.
No zebras here, just horses.
Posted by Dinah on November 19, 2002, at 15:03:38
In reply to Re: How much do you take? -- » oracle, posted by Kari on November 19, 2002, at 13:53:48
Kari, I can find almost nothing on how antipsychotics work, other than that they don't know. I realize they work on D2 receptors, but that doesn't really explain it in terms of functioning. Is it that excess dopamine causes overstimulation? And what the drug does is to reduce overstimulation?
How does dopamine work in both Parkinsons and Schizophrenia? Do the side effects of antipsychotics mimic Parkinsons? Or is it a different dopamine receptor involved in each. I'm reading Awakenings right now, but haven't found any answers to my befuddlement.
Risperdal worked great on me in a way, but there was almost an on/off switch in terms of emotions. My pdoc said that would wear off, but for me to believe him I have to be able to understand how it works.
I know I'm inundating you with questions, and I certainly don't expect you to know the answers. I can't even find where the scientists know the answers. After having been on SSRI's for a while, I have a pretty good idea of the way they work, at least in me, altho I hear other people have different experiences. Why can't the scientists explain these things better? Or is my lack of Google ability showing again.
Posted by linkadge on November 20, 2002, at 6:47:45
In reply to Re: Antipsychotics » Kari, posted by Dinah on November 19, 2002, at 15:03:38
Antipsychotics block the D2 receptor in the
brain. This is proposed to be the therapudic
action. What this does, is in blocking one
receptor leaves more dopamine for other
receptors.Parkinsons is related to a decrease in the production of dopamine the brain (a part that has nothing to do with emotion) however the drugs used, raise dopamine in the emotion centers as well.
Cocine and other stims can cause psychosis when abused, this is because of enhanced activity of dopamine at the D2 receptor. Stim psychosis is
effectivly relieved with antipsychotics.Dopamine is involved in repeating an action. It brings pleasure from learning and getting better at a previously known action. In excess it creates extreme feelings of power and remarkable self controll. In excess, a person may feel to have special powers and such. It enhances self awareness, movement controll, cognition and spacial skills. This is why someone high on Cocane can generally drive at brakeneck speeds and survive for longer than normal.
As far as depression goes, too little dopamine can result in feelings of weakness, fragility, like not being a real solid and physical being. In some, raising dopamine relieves thoughs of impending heart attack. Have you ever hated the concept of a heart - why did God have to make something that beats all the time and not something stationay (afraid to sleep as if your awareness if it keeps it going?) You may be low on dopamine.
Dopamine is an inhibitoy neurotransmitter at some sites and a excitory at others. It very often closes of 'change' and makes one stubborn, it can make a situation impossible to change -(that is, in the presence of low seritonin)
It has a strong component in Sociability. When too high it provokes feelings of self centeredness and self power - 'what could I possibly learn from them' But when too low, someone may doubt their ability to carry on a conversation - fearing they may say something stupid. An excessivly high dopamine person often becomes disconnected in this way. They feel nobody really understands the powerful insight they get - they feel other's talk is too simplictic that it has no meaning.
You may now see how the symptoms of paranoia can generally be left untreated. The person is very smart insightful and intuitive - they should surely know what is real and what is not. There is a very very fine line between insight and delusions, self confidence and self centerdness which is all controlled by dopamine.
The cocaine high is not all that good. Intead of giving you satisfaction with the world - you all of a sudden SEE all the problems AND you become powerful - your internal dialog speeds up and your ideas don't get stuck at a cetain point anymore - you see them right though - they're attainable. You don't give a darn about others cause it is YOUR power than can get it all.
You can run without the slightest stumble and hop fences with remarkable spacial accuracy. Math skills go nuts as cognition and spacial skills go through the roof - you can see how John Nash - A beautiful mind - might not recognise it as a problem.Psychosis and abject fear go hand in hand. Some peoples anxiety has a psychotic component or a psychotic twinge. Feeling like everything has a devine purpose for example. Feeling like doom and dread, and impending justice will come. This is another reason why antipsychotics help some anxiety disorders and even some panic disorders.
Also note that Dopamine driven, low seritonin depressives very rarely seek help. They feel good about themselves - but that usually itThis is why it is absolutely crutial for the patient to explain the 'thoughts' that accompany the feeling. Saying one is depressed is not enought - fining out what the patient is depressed about - can really help discover what
neurotransmitter is out of whack .In my depression I never had feelings low self worth. I always - throughout the whole thing - thought I was smart - but things just had an unbearable sence of sadness to them. This is why SSRIs worked the best for me. Some others don't feel as sad as they do lousy - feeling worthless as it is called - dopamine has a VERY STRONG component in the feeling of self worth. Ever notice that a psychotic person will almost NEVER feel worthless ?! Low dopamine can also make the world seem dirty and poluteted and dry and stuff like that.
So, people out there, tell us more about your depression, what gets you depressed, what thoughts accompany your depression.
Linkadge
Posted by Kari on November 20, 2002, at 7:59:28
In reply to Re: How much do you take? --, posted by oracle on November 19, 2002, at 14:57:33
Hi oracle,
There seems to have been some misunderstanding regarding my previous message, but you are absolutely right about the need to be cautious with drugs affecting dopamine. That is also the reason I don't take such substances, even though these are the meds which would make a difference in my case. On an old AP I have developed dystonia, TD and parkinsonism and one cannot assume that taking a newer one would guarantee no neurological problems. For people who must take dopamine blockers, however, the new atypicals can be considered a blessing, since the risks are reduced. For others, perhaps it is really better to look for substitutes and hope they work.
As for the "government plot", taking drugs to increase the effect of dopamine simply for pleasure (if I understood correctly) is not a good idea :)
Posted by Kari on November 20, 2002, at 8:55:36
In reply to Re: Antipsychotics » Kari, posted by Dinah on November 19, 2002, at 15:03:38
Hi Dinah,
I guess that as far as meds are concerned, there is a lot more mystery than knowledge. Certain meds can be assumed to affect certain neurotransmitters but that may not be their main mode of action. Side effects, however, seem to be more concrete.
Linkadge wrote a good explanation about the way dopamine works in Parkinson's and schizophrenia. Perhaps the reduction of dopamine in other areas of the brain in which this effect is not needed is responsible for the parkinsonism induced by APs. This lack of specification may also explain the psychotic symptoms induced by drugs which treat Parkinson's.
When you say there was an "on/off" switch of emotions with Risperdal, are you referring to mood swings or to transient symptoms of emotional blunting? Do you still take this med? Have you noticed any positive effects?
I assume that a "dopamine excess" can cause overstimulation resulting in emotional blunting and that dopamine blockers can change this, as I have seen this effect in me and have heard of it in others.
What effect have you noticed with SSRIs? Do you feel blunted on them?
Posted by Kari on November 20, 2002, at 13:59:08
In reply to Re: Antipsychotics, posted by linkadge on November 20, 2002, at 6:47:45
Hi Linkadge,
I found your message about the effects of dopamine very interesting.
Perhaps it gets complicated when a person has symptoms of both high and low dopamine at the same time (different brain areas). It is all so confusing.
Another problem in diagnosis is that high dopamine seems to decrease one's ability to communicate and to volunteer information about unusual feelings or perceptions. It would not be too difficult to identify these in a psychotic person. In the case of personality or other disorders involving a disturbed dopamine balance, the person may feel a need to hide certain thoughts and feelings and succeed in doing so without realizing that his subjective feeling of overwhelming shame is preventing him from receiving appropriate treatment. In other cases he may take these perceptions for granted and fail to realize they are problematic.
Kari.
Posted by Dinah on November 20, 2002, at 18:37:13
In reply to Re: Antipsychotics, posted by linkadge on November 20, 2002, at 6:47:45
Thanks Linkadge.
I'm going to have to take some time to digest all this. Obviously dopamine is a multifaceted neurotransmitter.
Posted by Dinah on November 20, 2002, at 18:44:34
In reply to Re: Antipsychotics » Dinah, posted by Kari on November 20, 2002, at 8:55:36
Hi Kari,
On SSRI's I noticed apathy, flatness, memory loss, and a reduction in my sensitivity to sounds, lights, and other stimulation.
On Risperdal I didn't feel flat in the same way at all. I also didn't feel any reduction in sensory overstimulation. What I did notice is hard to describe. It's as if I became very cerebral, and things that I might have an emotional reaction to left me unmoved. I don't know. Maybe it was a placebo reaction. It mainly felt like a more effective tranquilizer than Klonopin, but with more of an effect on mood. Perhaps I wasn't on it long enough or at high enough a dose to feel any effect but a tranquilizing one.
I was on a relatively high dose of Thorazine as a preteen, and again, all I remember was a tranquilizing effect. I took it (according to my doctors hard to read records) for night terrors (which I don't actually remember having).
Ah well, if it is effective as a tranquilizer on an as needed basis, I'll be relatively happy with it.
Thanks,
Dinah
Posted by oracle on November 20, 2002, at 19:55:25
In reply to Re: Antipsychotics » linkadge, posted by Dinah on November 20, 2002, at 18:37:13
> Thanks Linkadge.
>
> I'm going to have to take some time to digest all this. Obviously dopamine is a multifaceted neurotransmitter.All of them are, and they each effect each other.
Again, once we start talking about high and low levels we are way of the path. Complex systems
cannot be understood with simple terms
Posted by Dinah on November 20, 2002, at 20:36:44
In reply to Re: Antipsychotics, posted by oracle on November 20, 2002, at 19:55:25
Sigh. Yes, I see that. Using Linkadge's post I am trying to refine my google search. But I see it is something best done well rested and alert.
Dinah
Posted by Kari on November 21, 2002, at 10:08:49
In reply to Re: Antipsychotics » Kari, posted by Dinah on November 20, 2002, at 18:44:34
Dinah,
I hope you find what works well for you.
Best wishes,
Kari.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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