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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Michael D on November 18, 2002, at 12:07:21
A possible substitute for Zyprexa and Seroquel:
http://www.namiscc.org/newsletters/February02/aripiprazole.htm
"Stephen M. Stahl, M.D., Ph.D., Professor of Psychiatry at the University of California at San Diego, places aripiprazole in the class of antipsychotics called dopamine system stabilizers (DSSs). Stahl dubs these new therapeutic agents “Goldilocks” because of their ability to strike a balance between too much and too little dopamine. With “just right” result, negative and cognitive symptoms are reduced and motor side effects or prolactin elevation is absent. Previous atypical drugs block dopamine D2 receptors resulting in motor side effects such as pseudo-parkinsonism, and ultimately tardive dyskinesia. "
http://www.narsad.org/pub/sum02med.html
"Aripiprazole (Abilitat)
Aripiprazole is believed to exhibit potent partial agonism of D2 dopamine receptors, and is also associated with partial agonism of 5HT1A serotonin receptors and antagonism of 5HT2A serotonin receptors. This medication's goal is to reduce hyperactive dopamine neurons that mediate psychosis and at the same time enhance underactive dopamine neurons that mediate negative and cognitive symptoms (mesocortical pathway).In a prior clinical study, aripiprazole was found to be as effective as risperidone (Risperdal) in reducing and treating signs and symptoms of schizophrenia. Approximately 10% of patients on aripiprazole or risperidone experienced weight gain of more than 7% from baseline.
"http://www.bms.com/news/press/data/fg_press_release_3271.html
"The companies anticipate that Abilify tablets will be widely available in pharmacies within two weeks. "
Posted by Michael Dewolf
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 18, 2002, at 12:15:58
In reply to New Dopamine Drug approved by FDA, posted by Michael D on November 18, 2002, at 12:07:21
> Aripiprazole is believed to exhibit potent partial agonism of D2 dopamine receptors, and is also associated with partial agonism of 5HT1A serotonin receptors and antagonism of 5HT2A serotonin receptors. This medication's goal is to reduce hyperactive dopamine neurons that mediate psychosis and at the same time enhance underactive dopamine neurons that mediate negative and cognitive symptoms (mesocortical pathway).Interesting. I just posted abstracts showing that DHA (from fish oil) does the same thing for dopaminergic neurotransmission.
Posted by Michael D on November 18, 2002, at 12:41:29
In reply to Re: New Dopamine Drug approved by FDA, posted by Larry Hoover on November 18, 2002, at 12:15:58
> Interesting. I just posted abstracts showing that DHA (from fish oil) does the same thing for dopaminergic neurotransmission.
I'm currently taking Cod Liver Oil and was surprised to experience the same effect as taking Serotonin-based Anti-Depressants, like Paxil. Unfortunately, my mental problems are still fully present.
The more I read about Schizophrenia and Dopamine-based illnesses, the more I'm convinced that that's my problem, yet I'm not noticing any help from taking Cod liver oil.
How long have you been taking it?
I have been taking other supplements with the Cod Liver Oil, and so I'm not to sure what is causing the AD effect. It could be a combination of several of them.
Today, I took my Cod Liver Oil, but not most of my other supplements, and I'm not getting the AD effect.
Michael Dewolf
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 18, 2002, at 15:22:54
In reply to Re: Fish Oil, posted by Michael D on November 18, 2002, at 12:41:29
> > Interesting. I just posted abstracts showing that DHA (from fish oil) does the same thing for dopaminergic neurotransmission.
>
> I'm currently taking Cod Liver Oil and was surprised to experience the same effect as taking Serotonin-based Anti-Depressants, like Paxil. Unfortunately, my mental problems are still fully present.I do not recommend long-term or high-dose supplementation with cod liver oil, for two reasons: 1) fish liver, like our own, is where the most significant burden of toxic materials accumulates; 2) cod liver oil has too high a concentration of fat-soluble vitamins for it to be a safe source for the amount of omega-3 fatty acids needed for health.
> The more I read about Schizophrenia and Dopamine-based illnesses, the more I'm convinced that that's my problem, yet I'm not noticing any help from taking Cod liver oil.
>
> How long have you been taking it?I have significantly increased my fish consumption, and have supplemented with fish oil, for at least three years.
> I have been taking other supplements with the Cod Liver Oil, and so I'm not to sure what is causing the AD effect. It could be a combination of several of them.
>
> Today, I took my Cod Liver Oil, but not most of my other supplements, and I'm not getting the AD effect.
>
> Michael DewolfI wouldn't expect that you would notice much of an antidepressant effect after one dose. If you switch to fish body oil, and take at least 5 grams a day, it should take at least 2 months to provide enough DHA to restore the brain's store of this fatty acid (maybe much longer). You'll probably feel better before two months, but getting the nutrient reserves up will take longer.
Posted by Bob on November 18, 2002, at 16:08:47
In reply to Re: Fish Oil, posted by Larry Hoover on November 18, 2002, at 15:22:54
>
> I wouldn't expect that you would notice much of an antidepressant effect after one dose. If you switch to fish body oil, and take at least 5 grams a day, it should take at least 2 months to provide enough DHA to restore the brain's store of this fatty acid (maybe much longer). You'll probably feel better before two months, but getting the nutrient reserves up will take longer.Is anyone aware of how much fish oil one should take? I've seen many different recommendations, but some of them scare me. They are based on the amounts of DHA that should be ingested, thus requiring something like 12 to 16 pills of fish oil. Is anyone really doing this on a long term basis? If I did that, I'd never get off the toilet.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 18, 2002, at 17:08:28
In reply to Re: Fish Oil » Larry Hoover, posted by Bob on November 18, 2002, at 16:08:47
> Is anyone aware of how much fish oil one should take? I've seen many different recommendations, but some of them scare me.
It all depends.....I know, you want a straight answer. ;-)
A recent study, using only EPA (the 20-carbon length omega-3), found that 1 gram/day was more efficacious than 2 or 4 grams per day. The problems with this study are two-fold: Pure EPA is not something that is readily available (or cost-effective); and, who is to say that EPA alone is responsible for all the antidepressant activities in fish and/or fish oil? I just looked at a study correlating fish consumption and depression incidence, and there was a highly significant inverse relationship (r = -0.84, p< 0.005). Fish has high levels of selenium, and DMAE (dimethylaminoethanol), also important for a healthy and happy brain.Most people settle on 5-6 grams/day of fish oil. Others take twice that amount. You can't overdose (I'm not looking at digestive effects here).
> They are based on the amounts of DHA that should be ingested, thus requiring something like 12 to 16 pills of fish oil. Is anyone really doing this on a long term basis? If I did that, I'd never get off the toilet.
Chances are, your body would adapt to that amount of fish oil, given some time. I can see that you would probably have some digestive difficulty if you went straight away to 16 grams a day. I think there are some things where intuition will guide you. What's right for *you* doesn't depend on what *I* think.
I've been doing some crude calculations, which lead me to believe that you should probably aim for around 1 gram/day of DHA from all sources. Given that the brain weighs about 1.5 kg, and is about 60% fat, with maybe 25% of that fat being DHA (ideally), you should have about 225 grams of DHA inside your head. Assuming about a 1% phospholipid turnover/day (a low estimate), and 50% recycling of the DHA already present (based on half-life studies), you'd need about a gram a day of new DHA supplies to keep your brain optimized.
Posted by freedom2001 on November 18, 2002, at 20:54:38
In reply to Re: Fish Oil, posted by Michael D on November 18, 2002, at 12:41:29
> > Interesting. I just posted abstracts showing that DHA (from fish oil) does the same thing for dopaminergic neurotransmission.
>
> I'm currently taking Cod Liver Oil and was surprised to experience the same effect as taking Serotonin-based Anti-Depressants, like Paxil. Unfortunately, my mental problems are still fully present.
>
> The more I read about Schizophrenia and Dopamine-based illnesses, the more I'm convinced that that's my problem, yet I'm not noticing any help from taking Cod liver oil.
>
> How long have you been taking it?
>
> I have been taking other supplements with the Cod Liver Oil, and so I'm not to sure what is causing the AD effect. It could be a combination of several of them.
>
> Today, I took my Cod Liver Oil, but not most of my other supplements, and I'm not getting the AD effect.
>
> Michael DewolfCod liver oil contains large amounts of Vitamin A and D. You should take fish oils that contains high EPA + DHA, not cod liver oil. And it's important to take large amounts of fish oils. I take 5000 mg of EPA + DHA daily. It is not the weight of the capsules that matter, but the amount of actual EPA + DHA. My depression lifted completely in a week with 5000 mg fish oil.
>
>
Posted by freedom2001 on November 18, 2002, at 20:56:55
In reply to Re: Fish Oil » Larry Hoover, posted by Bob on November 18, 2002, at 16:08:47
>
> >
> > I wouldn't expect that you would notice much of an antidepressant effect after one dose. If you switch to fish body oil, and take at least 5 grams a day, it should take at least 2 months to provide enough DHA to restore the brain's store of this fatty acid (maybe much longer). You'll probably feel better before two months, but getting the nutrient reserves up will take longer.
>
>
>
> Is anyone aware of how much fish oil one should take? I've seen many different recommendations, but some of them scare me. They are based on the amounts of DHA that should be ingested, thus requiring something like 12 to 16 pills of fish oil. Is anyone really doing this on a long term basis? If I did that, I'd never get off the toilet.
>
>
>
>You should take capsules with high concentration (eg. 360mg or 500 mg EPA), not those 180mg EPA capsules. This will reduce the amount of capsules you need to take significantly.
Posted by pelorojo on November 19, 2002, at 18:37:18
In reply to Re: Fish Oil, posted by Larry Hoover on November 18, 2002, at 17:08:28
Hey Larry
I'm taking Omegabrite (1125 mg EPA/165 mg DHA per 3 pills). I'm more than adequately "mood stabilized"; if anything I'm anhedonic. From what I've read that you would expect a high EPA product to be more mood stabilizing and a high DHA product to be more anti-anhedonic? If yes, at what ratio DHA to EPA? I've become confused on this topic despite all your thoughtful posts.
thank you
P.S. I found an SJW product that claims to be standardized to 4% hyperforin. I've also been able to obtain some research grade sceletium and will be conducting a self-trial on that once I receive it.
Posted by Optimistic on November 20, 2002, at 7:55:33
In reply to Re: Fish Oil » Larry Hoover, posted by pelorojo on November 19, 2002, at 18:37:18
This may be off the topic a bit, but does anyone know or can they postulate how taking fish oil would affect Tourette's. I have Tourette's along with depression and want to try the fish oil but am concerned about its affect on the Tourette's.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 8:38:05
In reply to Re: Fish Oil, posted by Optimistic on November 20, 2002, at 7:55:33
> This may be off the topic a bit, but does anyone know or can they postulate how taking fish oil would affect Tourette's. I have Tourette's along with depression and want to try the fish oil but am concerned about its affect on the Tourette's.
I can't find anything in the literature which might suggest the outcome, except in that some theorists link ADHD and Tourette's genetically, and ADHD is improved with fish oil.
I hope you follow your intuition.
Good luck,
Lar
Posted by linkadge on November 20, 2002, at 9:42:32
In reply to Re: Fish Oil, posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 8:38:05
Tourettes is supposidly caused by elevation
of Dopamin at cetain receptors, since
Fish oil helps schitsofrenia which also
is the product of elevated dopamine it
may be worth a try.Linkadge
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