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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 28. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Roo on September 30, 2002, at 14:37:42
Sometimes I try Ad's and I get worse. I've been really
bad depressed and me and my doctor agreed on trying Remeron
and I took it for a week at 15 mg's...I seemed to get worse...I
was suicidal and really agitatedly so...pacing around....having
a really hard time being in my skin. It's really terrible. It's the
sort of thing where I HAD to MOVE...I couldn't sit around...I went on
a two hour hike and just bawled the entire time thinking of different
ways to off myself and frustrated because I knew I wouldn't/couldn't do
that to my parents. Luckily,
I hung in there because I knew I was seeing my p-doc the next day.She thinks I'm cycling and that the antidepressant is making it worse.
She didn't think the answer was to go OFF the remeron, she thought the
answer was to add a mood stabilizer. So we're trying Topomax. I told her
I was scared to death to take another remeron for fear of getting that awful
feeling again. She said we could stablize first on the mood stabilizer, and then
add the remeron back in. I asked her if she was certain it wasn't just that
remeron was a bad drug for me. She didn't think that was it. It's true that
other antidepressants have made me feel suicidal and agitated before...
effexor...zoloft...serzone...I just don't know. At the same time, I'm really
depressed and need an antidepressant...and it's going to take time to build
up with the topomax (have to go slowly with that one)...We also discussed
ECT as an option. Scarey...I never thought I'd go down that road, but I do
need relief quick and I'm in a scarey/dangerous place.I'm so confused as to what's happening with my brain...a long time
ago, I used to be able to take an antidepressant and that was it, I felt
better. Now through the past 3 years or so, it's almost like I've developed
an allergy to them or something...I don't know what changed...I've read alot of threads in PB about Remeron and never read about
anyone else feeling WORSE on it, or agitated (at only 15 mgs) and suicidal...
it seems strange...but I swear it made me feel that way...I am scared to
take it again...do you think the p-doc is right...that all I have
to do is take a mood stabilizer and that the remeron will work
right for me then?Sorry so confusing...I "aint right" right now...please send
good thoughts my way...
Posted by McPac on September 30, 2002, at 17:11:27
In reply to Opinions Please-Remeron/agitation/mood stabilizer, posted by Roo on September 30, 2002, at 14:37:42
I know exactly the symptoms that you are going through.....as I began to read your post the words "mood stabilizer" screamed out! There are a few you could try...your doc is looking at Topomax. I've never used that myself.....Lithium works EXTREMELY well for me...it's never lost its effect either....I only need a very low dose for it to work for me, most people need higher doses than I do. Another one you 'may' want to ask about is Lamictal...he may not choose it right now because you have to slowly increase it...the Remeron is most likely NOT causing your symptoms...it's just that you NEED a mood stabilizer and the Remeron alone won't do that...so it's VERY unlikely that the Remeron is contributing...after you get stabilized on the Topomax, you may very well notice that you, in fact, LIKE the Remeron...it's just that right now you NEED the mood stabilizer med...higher-dose Remeron could make you more anxious (it did me) but your 15 mg. should NOT....again, it's most likely NOT the Remeron that is causing your symptoms...RATHER, it is the LACK of a mood stabilizer that is the problem....take your Topomax Roo---you'll feel much better soon!!!Promise!
Posted by McPac on September 30, 2002, at 17:21:18
In reply to Opinions Please-Remeron/agitation/mood stabilizer, posted by Roo on September 30, 2002, at 14:37:42
Roo,
Depakote is another choice...there are multiple choices....I'm sure he won't go with Lamictal though, because you have to go very slowly on that one...so, if he decides on the Topomax, that sounds just fine....take your Topomax Roo...you'll feel fine soon....my advice, after you feel fine, is to find your proper maintanence dose and just STAY on it rather than going off all meds...why go through that crap? I'm STAYING on my meds!!!Best wishes Roo!...soon you will be writing and telling us all just how GOOD you feel!
Posted by pharmer on September 30, 2002, at 18:27:45
In reply to Opinions Please-Remeron/agitation/mood stabilizer, posted by Roo on September 30, 2002, at 14:37:42
Hey Roo,hang in there,things will get better.Sounds like alot of anxiety (mind-race)going on. The mood stabilizer may help although I do much better with clonazepam-great for anxiety and should help dampen your irritability somewhat untill the Rem. kicks in.
Posted by Essence on September 30, 2002, at 18:31:01
In reply to Re: Opinions Please-Remeron/agitation/mood stabilizer, posted by pharmer on September 30, 2002, at 18:27:45
Hi Roo;
So sorry your having a time of it right now. My own experience with Remeron is that it DOES in the beginning cause agitation and and increase in anxiety for about 3 weeks. I have never been a bitchy person, but when I started Remeron I swore the devil took over, I'm just glad I wasn't on the receiving end of my tongue...Hang in there, it WILL get better.
Ess
Posted by Dinah on September 30, 2002, at 19:03:58
In reply to Opinions Please-Remeron/agitation/mood stabilizer, posted by Roo on September 30, 2002, at 14:37:42
Hi Roo,
I noticed your name had been absent lately, but I had hoped it was because your Remeron was working so well.
That was definitely not my reaction on Remeron, I basically fell asleep for days, but it was my reaction on other AD's (Wellbutrin and Effexor). I'm not sure about Remeron, doesn't it work on NE?
Was your depressed mood before you started the Remeron also an agitated one? My depressions are often agitated ones, and mood stabilizers work great on them. I'd take the Topomax, see if it makes you feel better, and then maybe you'll feel well enough to try the Remeron again. Haven't you tried mood stabilizers before? (I seem to remember you had tried Depakote but had trouble with weight?) Did they help with the agitation? I really think that with cyclothymics, mood stabilizers have to be the base medicine, with any antidepressants added on top of them. And you might try asking for a benzo like Klonopin to get you through the worst of it. My pdoc had me up my Klonopin during my Effexor trial, and it was a life saver. It really helps with that itchy crawly jump out of your skin feeling.
I suppose the no-med route isn't the right one for you. :( It wasn't for me either. I really need to keep my Depakote and Klonopin. Whatever my brain chemistry was before, it now needs that mood stabilization.
Hang on, it will get better. Mood stabilizers make a lot of difference.
Dinah
Posted by cybercafe on September 30, 2002, at 20:28:10
In reply to Opinions Please-Remeron/agitation/mood stabilizer, posted by Roo on September 30, 2002, at 14:37:42
> and I took it for a week at 15 mg's...I seemed to get worse...I
> was suicidal and really agitatedly so...pacing around....having
> a really hard time being in my skin. It's really terrible. It's the
> sort of thing where I HAD to MOVE...I couldn't sit around...I went on
> a two hour hike and just bawled the entire time thinking of different
> ways to off myself and frustrated because I knew I wouldn't/couldn't do
> that to my parents. Luckily,sounds like akathisia to me... a common side effect from dopamine antagonism (i have no clue what effect remeron has on dopamine though) ....
many people on antipsychotics get this no?mood stabilizer certainly does sound like a good start
Posted by Ritch on September 30, 2002, at 23:02:51
In reply to Opinions Please-Remeron/agitation/mood stabilizer, posted by Roo on September 30, 2002, at 14:37:42
> I've read alot of threads in PB about Remeron and never read about
> anyone else feeling WORSE on it, or agitated (at only 15 mgs) and suicidal...
> it seems strange...but I swear it made me feel that way...I am scared to
> take it again...do you think the p-doc is right...that all I have
> to do is take a mood stabilizer and that the remeron will work
> right for me then?
>
> Sorry so confusing...I "aint right" right now...please send
> good thoughts my way...
Roo, (from Kansas like me right?), yeah I would go with the flow on the mood stabilizer idea. However, I got an increased (internal) agitation (and zombieheadedness) from Remeron. I tried switching to it from Prozac (once), and then from Zoloft (once), and it didn't work for me. I am one of those SSRI (or WB or stimulant) responders. The receptor antagonists have never done me much good. Don't get me wrong- I slept GREAT on Remeron (which is very important), but daytime was just not RIGHT-I was a grouchy couch potato (with all of this internal restlessness-like when I had EPS from Haldol-but nowhere near as bad). TALK TO YOUR PDOC ASAP. NO reason to feel like this. SENDING GOOD THOUGHTS YOUR WAY!!
Posted by McPac on October 1, 2002, at 8:11:59
In reply to Re: Opinions Please-Remeron/agitation/mood stabilizer » Roo, posted by Ritch on September 30, 2002, at 23:02:51
"when I had EPS from Haldol"
>>>>>>>>>>>>Ritch, can you explain what EPS is? thnx
Posted by Ritch on October 1, 2002, at 9:40:14
In reply to Ritch Re: Opinions Please-Remeron/agitation, posted by McPac on October 1, 2002, at 8:11:59
> "when I had EPS from Haldol"
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>Ritch, can you explain what EPS is? thnx
Extrapyramidal symptoms. Side fx from meds that antagonize dopamine (D2) receptors, causing interference with your motor circuits. In this case restlessness (akathisia). Haldol was the worst med to cause restlessness for me. It was nearly immediate following one dose. It was like there was no place to be comfortable, no way to sit still. It subsided after several hours, but when it was wearing off I got dystonia in my back. I just compared it with Remeron in the sense of *internal* restlessness I felt on it. I wasn't physically hyperactive, but mentally I was "fighting" the fog it was causing. It actually would be more accurate to compare it to the "lead-suited" feeling I got from Stelazine (another AP). My mind wanted to get up and DO something, but my body wouldn't comply, and I just felt this torturous restlessness.
Posted by Roo on October 1, 2002, at 10:33:31
In reply to Roo Re: Opinions Please-Remeron/agitation/mood , posted by McPac on September 30, 2002, at 17:21:18
>
ff all meds...why go through
that crap? I'm STAYING on my meds!!!Best wishes
Roo!...soon you will be writing and telling us
all just how GOOD you feel!McPat--
Thank you so much...I SO hope that is true! It's good to hear anyway...
I already
feel a little better just from not taking the remeron today...
and I'm going to stick to the doc's advice, get stabilized on
the mood stabilizer and then try the remeron again...
Posted by Roo on October 1, 2002, at 10:45:49
In reply to Re: Opinions Please-Remeron/agitation/mood stabilizer » Roo, posted by Dinah on September 30, 2002, at 19:03:58
> Hi Roo,
>
> I noticed your name had been absent lately,
but I had hoped it was because your Remeron
was working so well.
I wish....>
I'm not sure about Remeron, doesn't
it work on NE?Yes, and seratonin...
>
> Was your depressed mood before you started
the Remeron also an agitated one?They are mixed...sometimes they are agitated...sometimes lethargic...
I definitely have reacted agitatedly to AD's before though...Haven't you tried mood stabilizers before?
(I seem to remember you had tried Depakote but
had trouble with weight?) Did they help with
the agitation?I've tried neurotin and lamictal before. Lamictal worked
great for me...really well...but I gained 15 pounds on it...never
tried depakote. Am trying the topomax because it's the one least
likely to cause weight gain. Yes, they really do seem to help
with the agitation. I'm relatively new to the whole mood stabilizer
thing, but I guess I must need them. This being reactive to AD's just seems
to have happened in the last few years...> I suppose the no-med route isn't the right one
for you. :( It wasn't for me either. I really
need to keep my Depakote and Klonopin. Whatever
my brain chemistry was before, it now needs
that mood stabilization.I suppose not. Makes me really disappointed. Wasted a lot
of money too. Probably $500 in acupuncture appt's...only to
end up suicidal...and when I decided to go back to meds, the acupuncturist
kind of shamed me and made me feel like I just wasn't committed enough.
God--the anger at _that_. Oh well, best to just focus on the present
and getting better.
>
> Hang on, it will get better. Mood stabilizers
make a lot of difference.I sure hope to be getting better soon...this has been a rough
5 months or so...I'm ready for the good times to roll...
Thanks Dinah :-)
>
> Dinah
Posted by Roo on October 1, 2002, at 10:49:33
In reply to Re: Opinions Please-Remeron/agitation/mood stabilizer » Roo, posted by Ritch on September 30, 2002, at 23:02:51
>
> Roo, (from Kansas like me right?), yeah I
would go with the flow on the mood stabilizer
idea. However, I got an increased (internal)
agitation (and zombieheadedness) from Remeron.
I tried switching to it from Prozac (once),
and then from Zoloft (once), and it didn't work
for me. I am one of those SSRI
(or WB or stimulant) responders. The receptor
antagonists have never done me much good.
Don't get me wrong- I slept GREAT on Remeron
(which is very important), but daytime was just
not RIGHT-I was a grouchy couch potato (with all
of this internal restlessness-like when I had
EPS from Haldol-but nowhere near as bad). TALK
TO YOUR PDOC ASAP. NO reason to feel like this
. SENDING GOOD THOUGHTS YOUR WAY!!Thanks Ritch :-) You're from Kansas, too? What part? Have
we talked about this before? I hope the remeron works...I
tend to be an SSRI person too, though, so I'm not sure...it DOES
work on seratonin though, doesn't it? WB didn't work well for me though,
so maybe you and me don't respond in the same ways.
Thanks for the good thoughts, Ritch :-)
Posted by Roo on October 1, 2002, at 10:50:15
In reply to Ritch Re: Opinions Please-Remeron/agitation, posted by McPac on October 1, 2002, at 8:11:59
Posted by Ritch on October 1, 2002, at 12:55:17
In reply to Re: Opinions Ritch, posted by Roo on October 1, 2002, at 10:49:33
>
> >
> > Roo, (from Kansas like me right?), yeah I
> would go with the flow on the mood stabilizer
> idea. However, I got an increased (internal)
> agitation (and zombieheadedness) from Remeron.
> I tried switching to it from Prozac (once),
> and then from Zoloft (once), and it didn't work
> for me. I am one of those SSRI
> (or WB or stimulant) responders. The receptor
> antagonists have never done me much good.
> Don't get me wrong- I slept GREAT on Remeron
> (which is very important), but daytime was just
> not RIGHT-I was a grouchy couch potato (with all
> of this internal restlessness-like when I had
> EPS from Haldol-but nowhere near as bad). TALK
> TO YOUR PDOC ASAP. NO reason to feel like this
> . SENDING GOOD THOUGHTS YOUR WAY!!
>
>
>
> Thanks Ritch :-) You're from Kansas, too? What part? Have
> we talked about this before?From Wichita-you said you were from Pittsburgh I think.
> I hope the remeron works...I
> tend to be an SSRI person too, though, so I'm not sure...it DOES
> work on seratonin though, doesn't it?It doesn't block reuptake of serotonin, it antagonizes serotonin *receptors* instead, so it is "serotonergic" in its action-but it doesn't *feel* anything like an SSRI (which is good and bad).
WB didn't work well for me though,
> so maybe you and me don't respond in the same ways.
> Thanks for the good thoughts, Ritch :-)
>
>
>
good luck on your mood stabilization journey..
what a long strange trip it has been..
Posted by McPac on October 1, 2002, at 13:17:00
In reply to Re: Ritch Re: Opinions Please-Remeron/agitation » McPac, posted by Ritch on October 1, 2002, at 9:40:14
Ritch...thank you for your response!
By the way, have you had any residual abnormal body movements caused by the Haldol (even long after you stopped taking the Haldol)?
Posted by Dinah on October 1, 2002, at 16:47:36
In reply to Re: Opinions Dinah, posted by Roo on October 1, 2002, at 10:45:49
You know Roo, I wasn't always this way with cyclothymia. I'm not altogether sure whether the change in my brain chemistry came from the antidepressants or the preceding postpartum depression, but my brain chemistry has definitely changed. I believe I'll need mood stabilizers for the rest of my life. It's possible that you didn't need them before, but something happened and now you do. Your symptoms have always sounded so similar to mine that I'm guessing your reaction to mood stabilizers will be terrific.
Your chiropractor doesn't deserve to be in business. Heaping guilt on someone who needs to be on medications is unconscionable (sp?). Sorry you had to deal with that.
Take care of yourself.
Dinah
Posted by robindj on October 1, 2002, at 17:42:58
In reply to Re: Thanks to Everyone who Responded! (NM) (nm), posted by Roo on October 1, 2002, at 10:50:15
Couldn't help but remind you ...Lets call this one 4 fun and my feet can run
Well a touch of kindness. a shot of compassion a tab of emotional support, a dash of strength, a pinch of love ,a squirt of passion , a flicker of flirt,a cup of joy ,and of don't forget to mix excitement and doing something for your self today . Admire your feet..could you be more thankful that they are were they are ..have you thanked your feet today for taking you on those incredible journeys that you have and will venture into . Could you imagine your feet sticking out of your shoulders...man where would you get to ..be thankful for your feet today and tell them this : Feet, you are the most hard worked part of my body so today Im going to do something nice for you and praise you and thank you for the life that you have taken me on and I am looking forward to those hikes in Canada ( with MHIY ) and Vermont and everywhere else you little heals desire to go. I appreciate that no one has a pair like you , you are mileage to me that will take me to the end of time , So lets dance around and count our lucky toes..Thank you..MHIY
Oh yay Good luck with the new meds idea , I think its great that you are determined to find a solution...Grade "A"
Posted by Ritch on October 1, 2002, at 21:55:21
In reply to Ritch Re: Opinions Please-Remeron/agitation, posted by McPac on October 1, 2002, at 13:17:00
> Ritch...thank you for your response!
> By the way, have you had any residual abnormal body movements caused by the Haldol (even long after you stopped taking the Haldol)?There have been so many different AP's that I have taken, there is no way to attribute one or the other to any given "lingering symptom" I may or may not have. Mellaril (thioridazine) was the longest, most chronically taken AP for me. Stelazine and Haldol were (thankfully) short-lived experiments, that were terminated quickly. Risperdal triggered some obvious EPS symptoms, but I was *warned* by my neurologist at the time, so I am blaming *noone* on this type of issue.
Posted by LyndaK on October 3, 2002, at 1:14:48
In reply to Re: Opinions Dinah, posted by Roo on October 1, 2002, at 10:45:49
You mentioned the weight-gain with Lamictal(?). Just thought I should give you a "heads-up" with Remeron -- it is notorious for weight-gain. I usually lose weight when I'm depressed and lost weight with most of the SSRI drugs. I put on 20 lbs. with Remeron. It has stabilized at that, but I remember my eyes bugging out at the scale every time I stepped on it and feeling my clothes getting too tight. Remeron has been working SO well for me though that I've decided to just except the extra pounds and bigger clothes and be glad for some relief.
I don't remember being agitated when I first went on Remeron, but I do remember being less inhibited. I remember having a run-in with a parking lot attendant, which was SO out-of-character for me, but the difference was not that I was more agitated, I was just less inhibited about expressing it. But I also remember being very sleepy and dizzy during the first 2 to 3 days.
I hope you find some relief soon.
Lynda
Posted by Denise528 on October 3, 2002, at 11:01:25
In reply to Opinions Please-Remeron/agitation/mood stabilizer, posted by Roo on September 30, 2002, at 14:37:42
I couldn't believe your note, it was like reading my own note, your experiences are identical to mine. SSRIs used to work really well for me, zero side effects and I felt great. This time round they have made me exactly like you, pacing, going for long walks in a total state of despair and agitation, smoking incessantly and wanting to kill myself, it felt as though I was programmed to do it. The only thing that helped me through that period was Zyprexa (and it really did help) but then perhaps a benzo would work just as well.
I tried Remeron and had the same experiences.
I have been taking Zooloft/Sertraline now for over two months and although the agitation is no longer as bad I still don't feel quite right.
Please keep me informed of how you're doing because you sound so like me. I still feel as though I want to die and have told myself I'll give myself another 4 years.Denise
Posted by Roo on October 3, 2002, at 13:11:16
In reply to Roo, posted by Denise528 on October 3, 2002, at 11:01:25
Hope we both get some relief soon, Denise. Has
your p-doc suggested that AD's cause you to cycle?
Has he/she suggested cyclothymia or bipolar?It's funny you mentioned zyprexa (an anti-psychotic)...
I used to take a low dose of navane (one of the older anti-psychotic drugs)...
I recently went off all meds, and that was a tough one to get off of (lots of withdrawal)...my p-doc
told me I should start taking it again since I was feeling so agitated and
suicidal, but I was really resistant to the idea (because of all I went through to get off of it). Last night, I finally gave in.
I feel a little better today. Still feel rotten, but I do notice a difference.
Posted by Denise528 on October 4, 2002, at 11:25:34
In reply to Re: Roo--Denise, posted by Roo on October 3, 2002, at 13:11:16
Roo,
What are you taking now? Are you back on the Remeron? If so are you taking anything with it.
My psychiatrist does think I am cyclothymic but I tend not to agree because I just feel depressed all the time, just sometimes not so depressed.
I'm still taking Zooloft/Sertraline and lamictal haven't felt depressed or agitated today, lot's of energy and brain's working ok. But feel distant and like I haven't got any real emotions. It's like my personality has been cut out, like I have no real sense of self.
I'm also having a lot of vivid and bad dreams.Denise
Posted by Roo on October 4, 2002, at 14:42:55
In reply to Re: Roo--Denise, posted by Denise528 on October 4, 2002, at 11:25:34
> Roo,
>
> What are you taking now? Are you back on the
Remeron? If so are you taking anything with it.Taking topamax...haven't starting taking the remeron again yet...kind
of scared to...but I'm supposed to start it back up once the topamax kicks
in.>
> My psychiatrist does think I am cyclothymic
but I tend not to agree because I just feel
depressed all the time, just sometimes not
so depressed.Yeah, but that agitated suicidal thing you were describing sounds
cyclothymic...I'm depressed mostly too, but antidepressants will
make me "cycle" and get really agitated.>
> I'm still taking Zooloft/Sertraline and lamictal
haven't felt depressed or agitated today, lot's
of energy and brain's working ok. But feel
distant and like I haven't got any real emotions.
It's like my personality has been cut out,
like I have no real sense of self.
I'm sorry, Denise...that doesn't sound so good either....
I'm talking to the doc about ECT on monday...
> I'm also having a lot of vivid and bad dreams.
>
>
>
> Denise
Posted by Chloe on October 5, 2002, at 11:42:03
In reply to Re: Roo--Denise, posted by Roo on October 4, 2002, at 14:42:55
Roo,
It sounds like you are in a difficult place. I can relate to the severe suicidal depression and the cycling. I got so low, frustrated and unsafe with failed med trials, that my pdoc and I thought ECT would be the safest, quickest and most effective option. WELL, I am so glad I chose ECT. It's taken about a dozen treatments, but I feel so much better. My short fuse is GONE. I am not obsessing about death, and I am even wanting to go back to work. I was way too depressed to keep my job...As scary as ECT sounds, it's extremely effective. In fact, I went a little over the top in terms of feeling gooooood! and had to increase my Lithium a bit. But it's not the angry, ugly hypomania. It's more of a very energetic, ambitious kind of up...I am just so glad I was given the opportunity to have ECT, and stop with the merrigoround of trying med after med after med. ECT has given me the ability to feel better and reevaluated my med situation and feel safe at the same time...
Sending good thoughts your way!
Chloe
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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