![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by rjk on July 22, 2002, at 11:38:18
I am now in a situation where I cannot take any meds, thanks to the clown that advised me to combine Effexor and Remeron. Has anyone got any suggestions? Oh, forget therapy, I am doing that and it's not made the slightest difference.
Posted by fachad on July 22, 2002, at 12:42:30
In reply to Can't take any meds, what now?, posted by rjk on July 22, 2002, at 11:38:18
Start by asking yourself what is troubling you. What are the target symptoms? I think you would do well to ignore the DSM diagnostic categories and just try to define what doesn’t' feel right in your life. From there, you can begin to try different ways of making things better.
Physical health is the most basic requirement for an overall state of well being. Do you eat healthy? Do you drink plenty of water? Do you exercise regularly? Do you maintain regular sleep wake times? If you promote general physical health in your body, your body can often correct any imbalances that may arise and cause distress.
How are you managing your thoughts and feelings? CBT and RET are extremely effective techniques of taking control of the process by which thoughts create emotions. Read "Feeling Good" by David Burns and "A New Guide to Rational Living" by Albert Ellis. If you really apply the material in those two books, you can eradicate much emotional suffering, despite your external circumstances.
Finally, are you in any life situations that are contributing to your distress? Pharmacotherapy will never make a person feel permanently happy if they are in a bad marriage, or hate their job, or are not living with integrity to their true nature.
Without denying the value of medication, I will say that meds do more harm than good when people take them instead of looking at these three key areas (physical health, mental hygiene, and life situations). I would never recommend that someone not take meds, but I think that meds can only go so far and then the rest is up to you. In your case, life has presented you a situation where you are forced to move to the level of total self-responsibility right now.
I hope you don't take offence at these suggestions. This advice is offered in a spirit of compassion. I'm just telling you what I've found in my own life, and relating it to your situation. Ultimately, you will have to work out your own solutions. Meds and therapy are both passive in that they are things someone else gives you. The real fix is in something you do yourself.
> I am now in a situation where I cannot take any meds, thanks to the clown that advised me to combine Effexor and Remeron. Has anyone got any suggestions? Oh, forget therapy, I am doing that and it's not made the slightest difference.
Posted by rjk on July 22, 2002, at 13:04:03
In reply to Re: Can't take any meds, what now? » rjk, posted by fachad on July 22, 2002, at 12:42:30
Thanks for the advice. I agree with all that you have said, however there is nothing that is particularly troubling me and I do already lead a fairly healthy lifestyle. My problem relates to the fact that A/Ds have left my brain so sensitive that if I so much as eat spicy food I will spend the next day crying my eyes out. Excercise makes me feel worse, rather than better and taking a paracetamol makes me feel extremely depressed. I obviously avoid all the things that do make me feel worse, but I still feel absolutely awful most of the time.
> Start by asking yourself what is troubling you. What are the target symptoms? I think you would do well to ignore the DSM diagnostic categories and just try to define what doesn’t' feel right in your life. From there, you can begin to try different ways of making things better.
>
> Physical health is the most basic requirement for an overall state of well being. Do you eat healthy? Do you drink plenty of water? Do you exercise regularly? Do you maintain regular sleep wake times? If you promote general physical health in your body, your body can often correct any imbalances that may arise and cause distress.
>
> How are you managing your thoughts and feelings? CBT and RET are extremely effective techniques of taking control of the process by which thoughts create emotions. Read "Feeling Good" by David Burns and "A New Guide to Rational Living" by Albert Ellis. If you really apply the material in those two books, you can eradicate much emotional suffering, despite your external circumstances.
>
> Finally, are you in any life situations that are contributing to your distress? Pharmacotherapy will never make a person feel permanently happy if they are in a bad marriage, or hate their job, or are not living with integrity to their true nature.
>
> Without denying the value of medication, I will say that meds do more harm than good when people take them instead of looking at these three key areas (physical health, mental hygiene, and life situations). I would never recommend that someone not take meds, but I think that meds can only go so far and then the rest is up to you. In your case, life has presented you a situation where you are forced to move to the level of total self-responsibility right now.
>
> I hope you don't take offence at these suggestions. This advice is offered in a spirit of compassion. I'm just telling you what I've found in my own life, and relating it to your situation. Ultimately, you will have to work out your own solutions. Meds and therapy are both passive in that they are things someone else gives you. The real fix is in something you do yourself.
>
>
> > I am now in a situation where I cannot take any meds, thanks to the clown that advised me to combine Effexor and Remeron. Has anyone got any suggestions? Oh, forget therapy, I am doing that and it's not made the slightest difference.
Posted by fachad on July 22, 2002, at 14:48:22
In reply to Re: Can't take any meds, what now? » fachad, posted by rjk on July 22, 2002, at 13:04:03
Your problem is definitely very challenging. It is what I call "somatic depression". You won't find that in DSM, I made it up to explain to my pdoc what was wrong. I use that term to mean suffering that feels similar to depression, but in is experienced as bodily malaise rather than emotional sadness.
There are several ways you could choose to pursue relief from your symptoms.
The most conservative approach would be to continue to live a healthy lifestyle and hope that with time, your body will reestablish equilibrium.
You could supplement that approach by trying various things like vitamins, minerals, fish oil etc. You could try to find an "alternative" medical practitioner to treat your condition. There is risk of being taken by quacks, but there is also a possible reward of being really helped in a way you would never have found on your own.
A much more aggressive approach would be to try to find a competent psychopharmacologist to help you. You say that you cannot tolerate ANY medications. I don't mean to be pedantic, but I'd bet there are some you have not tried.
Maybe your nervous systems needs to be numbed to help it recover. Pain can establish a feedback loop that makes it worse and prevents recovery. Has your doctor tried benzodiazepines like Valium or Ativan? They may "cool" your nerves and allow them to return to normal. You might even be helped by narcotic analgesics like oxycodine (Percocet) or hydrocodone (Vicodin), although that would be a difficult sell to a physician. Or maybe you just require very small doses of conventional ADs. The point is that there may still be some way for you to be helped by medication. I understand that you've had severe adverse reactions to several medications, but that does not mean you will have bad reactions to all medications.
It really sounds like your situation is similar to people who have environmental allergies - severe reactions to minute quantities of toxic chemicals that most people can just ignore. Your best bet might be to try to find a physician, conventional or alternative, that specializes in treating environmental allergies and see if they could help you.
If nothing else, this gives you a few options to try. There are always options.
> Thanks for the advice. I agree with all that you have said, however there is nothing that is particularly troubling me and I do already lead a fairly healthy lifestyle. My problem relates to the fact that A/Ds have left my brain so sensitive that if I so much as eat spicy food I will spend the next day crying my eyes out. Excercise makes me feel worse, rather than better and taking a paracetamol makes me feel extremely depressed. I obviously avoid all the things that do make me feel worse, but I still feel absolutely awful most of the time.
Posted by rjk on July 22, 2002, at 16:16:13
In reply to Re: Can't take any meds, what now? » rjk, posted by fachad on July 22, 2002, at 14:48:22
Thanks again for your suggestions.
Some months ago a psychiatrist advised me to take diazepam to "desensitize" my brain. That was a big mistake. I took 2.5mg tablets, the first two or three didn't really affect me, but the more I took the more they did.The sixth one affcted me for twelve weeks. So you can see my head is totally f****d. It has got to the point that I dare not take meds of any description. The last A/D I took was a single 17mg dose of lofepramine, which also affected me for a good twelve weeks.I don't think that it would be possible to divide an A/D tablet small enough so that it would act in the conventional way. The problem is that the more drugs I have taken, the more sensitive my brain has become. I kick myself now for not realizing what has been happening since I combined Remeron and Effexor. The meds have left me in a worse state than I was when I started on them. I wish that I had put them all down the toilet years ago.
As far as alternative remedies are concerned, I agree with what you are saying about being taken in by quacks. I might give it a try if I can find one that I can trust.
As you say, my problem is indeed challenging!
Your problem is definitely very challenging. It is what I call "somatic depression". You won't find that in DSM, I made it up to explain to my pdoc what was wrong. I use that term to mean suffering that feels similar to depression, but in is experienced as bodily malaise rather than emotional sadness.
>
> There are several ways you could choose to pursue relief from your symptoms.
>
> The most conservative approach would be to continue to live a healthy lifestyle and hope that with time, your body will reestablish equilibrium.
>
> You could supplement that approach by trying various things like vitamins, minerals, fish oil etc. You could try to find an "alternative" medical practitioner to treat your condition. There is risk of being taken by quacks, but there is also a possible reward of being really helped in a way you would never have found on your own.
>
> A much more aggressive approach would be to try to find a competent psychopharmacologist to help you. You say that you cannot tolerate ANY medications. I don't mean to be pedantic, but I'd bet there are some you have not tried.
>
> Maybe your nervous systems needs to be numbed to help it recover. Pain can establish a feedback loop that makes it worse and prevents recovery. Has your doctor tried benzodiazepines like Valium or Ativan? They may "cool" your nerves and allow them to return to normal. You might even be helped by narcotic analgesics like oxycodine (Percocet) or hydrocodone (Vicodin), although that would be a difficult sell to a physician. Or maybe you just require very small doses of conventional ADs. The point is that there may still be some way for you to be helped by medication. I understand that you've had severe adverse reactions to several medications, but that does not mean you will have bad reactions to all medications.
>
> It really sounds like your situation is similar to people who have environmental allergies - severe reactions to minute quantities of toxic chemicals that most people can just ignore. Your best bet might be to try to find a physician, conventional or alternative, that specializes in treating environmental allergies and see if they could help you.
>
> If nothing else, this gives you a few options to try. There are always options.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Thanks for the advice. I agree with all that you have said, however there is nothing that is particularly troubling me and I do already lead a fairly healthy lifestyle. My problem relates to the fact that A/Ds have left my brain so sensitive that if I so much as eat spicy food I will spend the next day crying my eyes out. Excercise makes me feel worse, rather than better and taking a paracetamol makes me feel extremely depressed. I obviously avoid all the things that do make me feel worse, but I still feel absolutely awful most of the time.
Posted by katekite on July 22, 2002, at 16:37:06
In reply to Can't take any meds, what now?, posted by rjk on July 22, 2002, at 11:38:18
Hi rjk,
I titled it 'you're in the wrong place' just to get your attention. I hope you stay and post here as you work on figuring out a solution.
I do think, though, that you are looking in the wrong place. It sounds to me that you are physically ill.
Hear me out. Feel free to disagree.
Here on this website, there are countless stories of meds making people have reactions to things, of adverse side effects. 99.5% go away when withdrawal is over! I have seen a couple scary stories from people who have persistent pain, a headache or twitches or other neurological condition after all withdrawal from a drug should be past.
You, however, seem different. You don't have one thing, you have many problems now. You say you can't even tolerate an aspirin! That exercise makes you feel bad! That you are sensitive to spices! That your whole chemistry has changed from before you took effex-rem to after.
Sure, psychotropic drugs theoretically could, in some susceptible individual become toxic and actually kill off a lot of neurons somehow making that person have an extra-sensitive brain. But are you that one person? There are other explanations. How about: you had a hormonal condition that was subclinical before and not causing a problem and then the stress of drug withdrawal made it much worse? Or, you had a minor heart condition that is now much worse? Or, you have a sulfite allergy? Who knows?
My experience has been good regarding sensitivity to meds and exercise turning out to be a treatable medical condition. I was taking Neurontin and 5 weeks in I thought Neurontin had begun to have bad side effects: my pulse would race on its own, I could no longer drink a single glass of alcohol or I got hot sensations over my body, I could no longer eat salmon, salt became a problem. I tried to exercise and felt horrible. At first I thought I had some sort of serotonin syndrome. It turns out I had high cortisol and abnormally fluctuating estrogen: menopause. Now that my hormone levels are stabilized I am myself again. I am still working on figuring out the cortisol, but on hormone therapy all the worst symptoms are simply gone. I will never know if Neurontin maybe brought it on, or made it worse, etc. But I know what is wrong now.
I also have mild depression going on for years. I saw a total of 5 psychiatrists during the time I was in search of answers and only ONE of them thought it might be medical. The others were happy to give me more drugs and more psychiatric diagnoses. You are going to the wrong kind of doctor.
No one believed me: I am too young, 31, for menopause. I had lots of medical tests but not the right ones at first. I looked healthy: my face was even more rosy than normal which I now know was a hormonal effect. I had to experiment with some medications. I had to educate myself on every disorder that could cause the symptoms and suggest these in the order of how common they are, to the doctors I saw, because they were unfamiliar with the type of problem I had. I had to keep notes. I had to see multiple doctors and be persistent but it paid off completely and I am myself again.
My point is that physical conditions can sensitize you to exercise, food and drink. Mental conditions do not do this! (ok, maybe some individual out there gets so anxious about aspirin that it does something bad to them. not you, I don't think).
Maybe you still have the depression that you had years ago, but this new stuff is not likely a somatic expression of depression -- not when its this severe. Depressed people take aspirin. Watching what you eat will not help except to make you feel slightly better about it and avoid trigger foods. Therapy may help you deal better but not help the actual illness. More anti-depressants aren't going to do the trick.
You are sick.
Yes, maybe some important neurons died from the toxic effect of effex+remeron. It is possible. But the possibility is remote. The more likely possibility is that something else is also going on.
You need to find out what is wrong. You need to take responsibility and stop thinking that your doctor would know if something was wrong. They know barely more than us. If you've read up on something you will often know more than them. It's just the way it is. You need to see an internal medicine specialist. If they don't help, you need to see an endocrinologist. A rheumatologist, an allergist. We can help point towards possibilities and the right specialists if you describe what actually happens to you when you eat things.
If in the end it turns out that there is no other explanation besides the death of some important neurons, then at least you have tried. Right now you have no idea what the true cause of your problem is.
Maybe you saw a doctor and they said they couldn't find an explanation. Maybe they even said they thought you were fine. Do you feel fine?
Kate
PS -- So, what happens when you take aspirin? What spices can you take and which are not ok? What happens?
Posted by rjk on July 22, 2002, at 17:30:56
In reply to you are in the wrong place , posted by katekite on July 22, 2002, at 16:37:06
Hi Katekite,
You didn't have to say that I am in the wrong place to get my attention. I would have read your message and thanked you for it in any event.
You have given me a lot to think about, however, I am totally convinced that combining Effexor and Remeron has in some way damaged my brain. My theory is that combining Remeron and Effexor was far too strong for my brain to cope with and that whatever part of the brain the drugs affect has been damaged. It is as though something "snapped" because since then I have had extreme reactions to any meds I have taken, including those that I had previously taken without a problem. Also, the more I have taken, the more sensitive my brain has become. To me it all seems very obvious, it is a sort of cause and effect thing. A/Ds have caused whatever part of the brain they affect to become very sensitive and the effect is that chemicals such as those contained within certain foods now also affect me. The best example is alcohol. If I drink so much as one beer I feel extremely depressed. As I have said, spicy food also affects me. If I eat a curry, I will be in tears the following day. The same thing applies to paracetamol, if I take one I will feel terrible about two hours later. Any drug that can affect the brain now affects mine to extreme.
I suppose you are right in that I am sick. I just wished that that was a doctor who could identify what the problem is, but even if they could, I am not sure that they couls do much about it. I have had physical examinations, which have been okay and I have had both a MRI brain scan and EEG test. The MRI scan was normal, but the EEG test was not, so that at least does prove that all is not right in the brain department. To be quite honest I really do not know who is likely to be able to help. I have seen a neurologist and it has he who organised the EEG and MRI scan, but other than saying that he believes my abnormal EEG results are due to exposure to psychotropic drugs, he cannot say exactly what the problem is. So, yes I am ill, but all the tests that I have had carried out do nothing other than confirm my belief that my problems stem from combining A/Ds.
If you still feel that I am in the wrong place, please let me know.
best wishes,
Richard
> Hi rjk,
>
> I titled it 'you're in the wrong place' just to get your attention. I hope you stay and post here as you work on figuring out a solution.
>
> I do think, though, that you are looking in the wrong place. It sounds to me that you are physically ill.
>
> Hear me out. Feel free to disagree.
>
> Here on this website, there are countless stories of meds making people have reactions to things, of adverse side effects. 99.5% go away when withdrawal is over! I have seen a couple scary stories from people who have persistent pain, a headache or twitches or other neurological condition after all withdrawal from a drug should be past.
>
> You, however, seem different. You don't have one thing, you have many problems now. You say you can't even tolerate an aspirin! That exercise makes you feel bad! That you are sensitive to spices! That your whole chemistry has changed from before you took effex-rem to after.
>
> Sure, psychotropic drugs theoretically could, in some susceptible individual become toxic and actually kill off a lot of neurons somehow making that person have an extra-sensitive brain. But are you that one person? There are other explanations. How about: you had a hormonal condition that was subclinical before and not causing a problem and then the stress of drug withdrawal made it much worse? Or, you had a minor heart condition that is now much worse? Or, you have a sulfite allergy? Who knows?
>
> My experience has been good regarding sensitivity to meds and exercise turning out to be a treatable medical condition. I was taking Neurontin and 5 weeks in I thought Neurontin had begun to have bad side effects: my pulse would race on its own, I could no longer drink a single glass of alcohol or I got hot sensations over my body, I could no longer eat salmon, salt became a problem. I tried to exercise and felt horrible. At first I thought I had some sort of serotonin syndrome. It turns out I had high cortisol and abnormally fluctuating estrogen: menopause. Now that my hormone levels are stabilized I am myself again. I am still working on figuring out the cortisol, but on hormone therapy all the worst symptoms are simply gone. I will never know if Neurontin maybe brought it on, or made it worse, etc. But I know what is wrong now.
>
> I also have mild depression going on for years. I saw a total of 5 psychiatrists during the time I was in search of answers and only ONE of them thought it might be medical. The others were happy to give me more drugs and more psychiatric diagnoses. You are going to the wrong kind of doctor.
>
> No one believed me: I am too young, 31, for menopause. I had lots of medical tests but not the right ones at first. I looked healthy: my face was even more rosy than normal which I now know was a hormonal effect. I had to experiment with some medications. I had to educate myself on every disorder that could cause the symptoms and suggest these in the order of how common they are, to the doctors I saw, because they were unfamiliar with the type of problem I had. I had to keep notes. I had to see multiple doctors and be persistent but it paid off completely and I am myself again.
>
> My point is that physical conditions can sensitize you to exercise, food and drink. Mental conditions do not do this! (ok, maybe some individual out there gets so anxious about aspirin that it does something bad to them. not you, I don't think).
>
> Maybe you still have the depression that you had years ago, but this new stuff is not likely a somatic expression of depression -- not when its this severe. Depressed people take aspirin. Watching what you eat will not help except to make you feel slightly better about it and avoid trigger foods. Therapy may help you deal better but not help the actual illness. More anti-depressants aren't going to do the trick.
>
> You are sick.
>
> Yes, maybe some important neurons died from the toxic effect of effex+remeron. It is possible. But the possibility is remote. The more likely possibility is that something else is also going on.
>
> You need to find out what is wrong. You need to take responsibility and stop thinking that your doctor would know if something was wrong. They know barely more than us. If you've read up on something you will often know more than them. It's just the way it is. You need to see an internal medicine specialist. If they don't help, you need to see an endocrinologist. A rheumatologist, an allergist. We can help point towards possibilities and the right specialists if you describe what actually happens to you when you eat things.
>
> If in the end it turns out that there is no other explanation besides the death of some important neurons, then at least you have tried. Right now you have no idea what the true cause of your problem is.
>
> Maybe you saw a doctor and they said they couldn't find an explanation. Maybe they even said they thought you were fine. Do you feel fine?
>
> Kate
>
> PS -- So, what happens when you take aspirin? What spices can you take and which are not ok? What happens?
Posted by rjk on July 22, 2002, at 17:37:59
In reply to you are in the wrong place , posted by katekite on July 22, 2002, at 16:37:06
Hi Kate,
I have just read your message to Deli and I would just like you to know that I am very pleased to hear that you are feeling okay, after what sounds like a pretty bad time. I hope things stay that way for you. Now all you have to do is sort me out!
Best wishes,
Richard
Posted by katekite on July 22, 2002, at 19:00:47
In reply to Re: you are in the wrong place » katekite, posted by rjk on July 22, 2002, at 17:37:59
LOL yes I am happy to be in a better place. It did take a long long time for me to narrow the problem down though. I can't fix anyone of course but I hope that someone else may benefit from me having gone through what I did.
I don't disagree that the combination of meds you took could have knocked something loose. That is always possible. The question is whether it is truly in your brain and only treatable with anti-depressant type meds or whether it could be hormonal or something else that ends up in a secondary way making your brain do what it does, which would need some other type of treatment.
I don't mean to give you false hope. I do know there are people with multiple food and chemical sensitivities that have to be very careful and that that is just the way it is.
It is good you had an mri and eeg. I had those, also an abdominal CT and chest xrays which were normal. It wasn't until I got hormonal testing that anything came up abnormal. We can be in very good health in many ways and not be ok.
I think the obvious place for you to begin is to look for something physical to go on. When my problems first began it was solely mental, but as time went by subtle physical changes occurred. To begin with I doubted myself a lot because of course it really was all in my head. I didn't even notice some of the early physical changes. I would record them and think it was just the way I was. But over a month or so there were clear trends, for example over a month my resting pulse invcreased just by about 5 beats per minute. Even something this minor could be important.
You could do an experiment: take something that has affected you badly in the past. Hopefully there is something where the effect doesn't last more than a day or so. Then measure a bunch of physical things and see if anything changes between that day and a day when you feel normal again.
For example you could compare all these things on a good day versus a bad day: resting pulse getting up, middle of day and before bed. Pulse after a brisk 5 minute walk. The volume of pee that you urinate. If you have access to a way to measure it, your blood pressure. Your resting breathing rate (breaths per minute). Your temperature when you first wake up and before you go to bed (recording exactly, not just 'normal'). You can look up 'vital signs' on the internet to see what is normal for your age.
Can you think of anything about your appearance that may have changed over the last 2 years? More hair or less hair (of course a little less hair is normal for men). Weight change? Is your skin tanned more than it used to be for the season? Has your eyesight changed? Are your eyes or mouth dryer than a couple years ago? Acne or oilier skin?
What happens when you drink caffeine?
Alcohol depresses you (that is pretty normal actually) but how long after having a drink would the sad mood start and how long does it last?
Do the sad moods from eating or drinking things tend to last about the same time or does it vary by days or weeks?
How long after you exercise do you feel sad? How long does that last?
Have you tried fasting for an entire day to see what happens? (some people with acquired sensitivities to wheat etc will start feeling much better if they eat nothing for 24 hrs except water).Ok well that's probably enough for the moment. That should keep you busy.
Oh wait I forgot -- if you are concerned that depression itself could be causing this, if you have doubt: test it. You can get empty gelatin capsules at the pharmacy. In one put something that affects you negatively, reliably, but which does not have a distinctive feeling (like it can't be benadryl or you'd be able to feel it and would know, maybe aspirin?). In another put something that has no sad-effect. Mix them up and take one with some food to make sure you can't taste it. Save the other. It's only a valid test if you don't know which you took. At the end of the next day (or whenever you would have felt sad by) open up the remaining capsule to see which one you took. You will have to repeat this test several times to be sure of the result, because of course there's always the chance you could feel sad on your own.
I don't know if your sadness due to foods etc is quite reliable enough to be tested like that. For me, for example, my symptoms came and went enough that I'm not sure that would have worked.
It would be interesting though.
Take care Richard.
kate
Posted by rjk on July 23, 2002, at 7:10:31
In reply to this is always the right place :), posted by katekite on July 22, 2002, at 19:00:47
Dear Kate,
Thanks for your message.
I have had blood tests, a chest X-ray, a physical examination, the EEG and MRI and consulted a neurologist. I am not sure what else I can do.
As far as food and drink is conerned, coffee doesn't seem to bother me, although I generally drink decaf. The times that I have drunk regular coffee it hasn't really made a difference. With things like curry, alcohol, paracetamol and exercise, it seems to be the following day that I feel worse. The following day I am not too bad.
I have started a thread on alternative medicine to see if anyone has had any success with anything. You never know, someone may have found some miracle cure
> LOL yes I am happy to be in a better place. It did take a long long time for me to narrow the problem down though. I can't fix anyone of course but I hope that someone else may benefit from me having gone through what I did.
>
> I don't disagree that the combination of meds you took could have knocked something loose. That is always possible. The question is whether it is truly in your brain and only treatable with anti-depressant type meds or whether it could be hormonal or something else that ends up in a secondary way making your brain do what it does, which would need some other type of treatment.
>
> I don't mean to give you false hope. I do know there are people with multiple food and chemical sensitivities that have to be very careful and that that is just the way it is.
>
> It is good you had an mri and eeg. I had those, also an abdominal CT and chest xrays which were normal. It wasn't until I got hormonal testing that anything came up abnormal. We can be in very good health in many ways and not be ok.
>
> I think the obvious place for you to begin is to look for something physical to go on. When my problems first began it was solely mental, but as time went by subtle physical changes occurred. To begin with I doubted myself a lot because of course it really was all in my head. I didn't even notice some of the early physical changes. I would record them and think it was just the way I was. But over a month or so there were clear trends, for example over a month my resting pulse invcreased just by about 5 beats per minute. Even something this minor could be important.
>
> You could do an experiment: take something that has affected you badly in the past. Hopefully there is something where the effect doesn't last more than a day or so. Then measure a bunch of physical things and see if anything changes between that day and a day when you feel normal again.
>
> For example you could compare all these things on a good day versus a bad day: resting pulse getting up, middle of day and before bed. Pulse after a brisk 5 minute walk. The volume of pee that you urinate. If you have access to a way to measure it, your blood pressure. Your resting breathing rate (breaths per minute). Your temperature when you first wake up and before you go to bed (recording exactly, not just 'normal'). You can look up 'vital signs' on the internet to see what is normal for your age.
>
> Can you think of anything about your appearance that may have changed over the last 2 years? More hair or less hair (of course a little less hair is normal for men). Weight change? Is your skin tanned more than it used to be for the season? Has your eyesight changed? Are your eyes or mouth dryer than a couple years ago? Acne or oilier skin?
>
> What happens when you drink caffeine?
> Alcohol depresses you (that is pretty normal actually) but how long after having a drink would the sad mood start and how long does it last?
> Do the sad moods from eating or drinking things tend to last about the same time or does it vary by days or weeks?
> How long after you exercise do you feel sad? How long does that last?
> Have you tried fasting for an entire day to see what happens? (some people with acquired sensitivities to wheat etc will start feeling much better if they eat nothing for 24 hrs except water).
>
> Ok well that's probably enough for the moment. That should keep you busy.
>
> Oh wait I forgot -- if you are concerned that depression itself could be causing this, if you have doubt: test it. You can get empty gelatin capsules at the pharmacy. In one put something that affects you negatively, reliably, but which does not have a distinctive feeling (like it can't be benadryl or you'd be able to feel it and would know, maybe aspirin?). In another put something that has no sad-effect. Mix them up and take one with some food to make sure you can't taste it. Save the other. It's only a valid test if you don't know which you took. At the end of the next day (or whenever you would have felt sad by) open up the remaining capsule to see which one you took. You will have to repeat this test several times to be sure of the result, because of course there's always the chance you could feel sad on your own.
>
> I don't know if your sadness due to foods etc is quite reliable enough to be tested like that. For me, for example, my symptoms came and went enough that I'm not sure that would have worked.
>
> It would be interesting though.
>
> Take care Richard.
>
> kate
Posted by katekite on July 23, 2002, at 9:54:11
In reply to Re: this is always the right place :) » katekite, posted by rjk on July 23, 2002, at 7:10:31
Ok, I sure hope you feel better soon. -- kate
This is the end of the thread.
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