![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 15 to 39 of 54. Go back in thread:
Posted by johnny1 on April 28, 2002, at 14:12:46
In reply to Re: Wellbutrin for the long haul? » JohnL, posted by Leighwit on April 25, 2002, at 10:45:52
I used paxil,seretonin,albuterol,alleville I can swear the wellbuterol alone took me out of the fog.
I sill cant control my anxiety, i cant sleep wheni want to,only when the body shuts down.
i tried effexor made me sick to my stomach and i had chills and shaking, celexa is ok but i am chemical sensitive so i have to be careful
Posted by dove on April 29, 2002, at 13:02:12
In reply to Stupid from drugs or from depression?, posted by Ponder on April 26, 2002, at 11:43:53
>
> Does anyone else wonder about drug side-effects vs. depression as the cause of cognitive difficulties? I mean, not just during the depression, but a kind of ongoing alteration in brain function from the illness?
>
>YES!!! I wonder about the med's cognitive effects all the time. I used to write in great quantity, though the quality would suffer due to what qualities of depression and aggravation I was having at the time. The quantity has definitely suffered, as has the everyday quota of time spent writing.
When I first started on meds, each one seemed to have its very own unique temperament, which played out in many comedic and not-so-comedic ways. Initially, Amitriptyline rendered me apathetic and dulled to the blinds. Verapamil (Calcium Channel Blocker) gave me energy, determination, and wonderful clarity of mind (as well as the most significant upward change in my depression thus far). I was able to resume many activities I loved including writing, playing piano, exercising, and extensive research in various areas of interest. Verapamil did not like my heart all that well, and I was eventually taken off and Amitriptyline was substituted.
Prozac enabled me to do many things such as housework, dishes, laundry, but absolutely nothing creative; I was completely muted and so very apathetic towards everything and anything I normally found enjoyable. Adderall enhanced concentration, I could actually finish something I started, which had never happened before, but it also deadened my creative energies and my ability to find inspiration and 'joie de vivre'.
Neurontin initially gave me some mood stability w/o the utterly dulling effects of other mood-stabilizers such as Tegretol, I was able to function and be somewhat imaginative while remaining less volatile and suicidal.
WB caused me great agitation, frustration, anger, complete lack of creativity; however, I was only on Wellbutrin for a couple of months. I found its effects quite unpleasant and detrimental to my health, increasing my depression and my hopelessness in a very aggressive and angry manner.
Klonopin, dulls but stabilizes (I think?), haven't found it to cause a deepening of my depression, and it has given me the ability to leave the house and ride in cars (when I'm not the driver) with crazy insane drivers and *not* throw myself out the door.
Serzone is still a complete unknown for me. It does sedate--which helps with my sleeping difficulties, it does create a certain amount of complacency and a feeling of contentment in the smaller things of life. However, because I've never taken this med alone, I only know (sort of know) what it feels like in combination with five (5) other psychoactive meds.
Current combo: Amitriptyline (Elavil), Adderall, fluoxetine (Prozac), Nefazodone (Serzone), clonazepam (Klonopin), and gabapentin (Neurontin).
This combo is definitely cognitively dulling! I can and do cut my Ami to receive significant cognitive improvements, will do the same with Serzone by cutting 100MGs in my 400MGS daily regiment. Klonopin can be cut down to 0.5MG with some temporary improvements, otherwise, anxiety creeps up along with mood lability. Neurontin has been my main med that I play with, given permission by my p-doc even. I have experimented with daily amounts ranging from 2,400MGS to 900MGS, trying to find a happy median. So far, still working on it.
I am also very interested in whether or not many of these loss-of-short-term memory, word-finding difficulties, and other negative cognitive side-effects can be countered and/or whether they are temporary or permanent. As the answers would severely affect my entire med approach and are quite critical in the long run!
Hope others have some thoughts to add!
dove
Posted by katekite on April 29, 2002, at 14:20:09
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? » Ponder, posted by dove on April 29, 2002, at 13:02:12
I'm glad you posted on all your personal drug experiences. I am always worried about cognitive effects too, at least in the last year when things seem to have had more negative cognitive effects than before. Today I'm hitting withdrawal from klonopin and cut down my dose of ritalin in order to be able to sleep, and as a result can barely finish a thought. Went swimming and thought I would drown of incoordination.
Can you post more on your experience with verapamil? What else were you on while taking it? How long did it take to have a beneficial effect? Since I have had some similar side effects to you as other drugs you've been on, I wonder how it would affect me.... I need to look into it.
kate
Posted by k9lover on April 30, 2002, at 11:44:03
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? » dove, posted by katekite on April 29, 2002, at 14:20:09
I too have been worried about cognitive function. I seem to forget things easily - or just not retain things in the first place - like I'm stoned or something. (On paxil, buspar, and zyprexa)
Posted by dove on April 30, 2002, at 12:43:16
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? » dove, posted by katekite on April 29, 2002, at 14:20:09
>
> Can you post more on your experience with verapamil? What else were you on while taking it? How long did it take to have a beneficial effect? Since I have had some similar side effects to you as other drugs you've been on, I wonder how it would affect me.... I need to look into it.
>
>Verapamil was initially prescribed for my migraines with blackout/fainting aura. It was the first med that ever had a positive effect on my mind. Previously, I had been on Tegretol with disastrous effects (of which I've described all over this board throughout the last 3 or so years), and finally just said "no" and suffered from the migraines and concussions from the fainting until Verapamil entered my life.
At the time, I was not receiving any help with my depression or other emotional 'issues'. I took Verapamil alone and my migraines disappeared with great speed and within two weeks I felt a change take over my whole mind. It was incredible, I called my Internal-Med Doc, raving and ranting about this miracle and he insisted it was merely due to the loss of the migraines, but I knew better. I started researching the med because I didn't believe what my doc had said, I had suffered from depression since around the age of 7.
I found a few, very small studies and references to the utilization of Verapamil in bipolar patients with some beneficial efficiency; and found many references stating its lack of efficiency and limited application within the psycho-pharmaceutical arena of mental illness. Which sort of shocked me, but didn't completely crash all my theories and beliefs that it could be used in certain people with great results.
I have stated this many times in the past, and will do so again, nothing--absolutely nothing--has ever come close to the amazing transformation I had with Verapamil. My goal in my med-treatment is to reach that state of mental health once again. However, I'm still searching, and have stated that I would like to give it another go at some point if none of these complicated med cocktails pan-out.
I would encourage you to look into it, especially if you suffer from depression accompanied by annoyance, or aggravation. These were the key factors that subsided when I took it. And it was quick to act after reaching the goal dosage. It is not considered by any of my p-docs as a "useful" psycho-active med, but it sure was for me.
Good Luck!
dove
Posted by terra miller on April 30, 2002, at 12:51:57
In reply to Re: Wellbutrin for the long haul? » JohnL, posted by Leighwit on April 25, 2002, at 10:45:52
i am taking wellbutrin ir alone, since i've found SSRI's to numb too much for me to make progress in therapy. it is agitating and has always been, but i deal with it and don't use caffeine.
i've felt more that the process of dissociating for me is what contributes to the fogging out.
anybody else wonder if it's symptoms of dissociation instead of longterm wellbutrin use that's the contributing factor for them?
interested to hear your thoughts.
~terra
Posted by katekite on April 30, 2002, at 13:54:42
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? » katekite, posted by dove on April 30, 2002, at 12:43:16
Interesting. yes annoyance/irritation is most of my problems, or at least its what gets in the way of me getting a nice hug from my hubby. ie -- 'geez why can't he put away his socks? why would i want a hug. why can't he quit chewing so loud? no more hugs from him, hah.' something like that. LOL.
I was especially curious about verapamil because my dad is on it for blood pressure and he seemed more 'sweet' than I remembered him when he visited recently. I had independently wondered if verapamil had something to do with it.
Have you ever taken your blood pressure in early am, waking up? I did that the other day and was surprised its high then. Which is incidentally when I feel the grumpiest. But there's the chicken/egg thing there, hard to know.
kate
Posted by Leighwit on April 30, 2002, at 16:27:45
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? » katekite, posted by dove on April 30, 2002, at 12:43:16
>I took Verapamil alone and my migraines disappeared with great speed and within two weeks I felt a change take over my whole mind. It was incredible, I called my Internal-Med Doc, raving and ranting about this miracle and he insisted it was merely due to the loss of the migraines, but I knew better. I started researching the med because I didn't believe what my doc had said, I had suffered from depression since around the age of 7.
>
> I found a few, very small studies and references to the utilization of Verapamil in bipolar patients with some beneficial efficiency; and found many references stating its lack of efficiency and limited application within the psycho-pharmaceutical arena of mental illness. Which sort of shocked me, but didn't completely crash all my theories and beliefs that it could be used in certain people with great results.
>
> I have stated this many times in the past, and will do so again, nothing--absolutely nothing--has ever come close to the amazing transformation I had with Verapamil. My goal in my med-treatment is to reach that state of mental health once again. However, I'm still searching, and have stated that I would like to give it another go at some point if none of these complicated med cocktails pan-out.
>
> I would encourage you to look into it, especially if you suffer from depression accompanied by annoyance, or aggravation. These were the key factors that subsided when I took it. And it was quick to act after reaching the goal dosage. It is not considered by any of my p-docs as a "useful" psycho-active med, but it sure was for me.
>
> Good Luck!
>
> dove
Dove ~I am so impressed that you are able to differentiate the side effects and define the characteristics of so many medications with such specificity ~ and remember them!
I can't remember one from another, and when I was using more than one AD (three was the max I mixed in a cocktail approach) I had a very hard time distinguishing the attritubes of one vs. another nor one without the other.
I printed this last post of yours so I won't forget to take it with me to the Pdoc. Since I most definitely experience irritability with my depression, your experience with Verapamil is very interesting to me. You mention that your goal is to experience the improvement you initially felt with Verapamil again. Did it not last very long?
Posted by Nuthatch on May 1, 2002, at 0:08:46
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression?, posted by Leighwit on April 30, 2002, at 16:27:45
I am really interested generally in this drugs vs. depression debate, and so pleased to see all the posts.
Last year I was on Celexa for depression but I remember around the same time having great difficulty in concentrating and slow thinking - I don't know if this was the depression or the drugs.
I didn't experience any physical (non-mental) sideffects.
I'm now depressed again and my doctor has suggested effexor xr, but I've researched it and it seems to have more sideffects than celexa. Any thoughts or advice?
I sometimes wonder if it's better to try and get by with exercise, although getting out of bed in the morning is a struggle...
Posted by dove on May 1, 2002, at 14:04:42
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression?, posted by Leighwit on April 30, 2002, at 16:27:45
Regarding keeping track of all the different meds and their effects on my life, I didn't start out that way. At one point, after many different meds and multiple med-combinations, I wanted to keep track of what was doing what.
I first went back through the P-Babble archives and located different milestones and my state of mind at the time, matched those posts up with my calendar, and tried to get a clear picture of the past. Then, I committed myself to keeping track of med increases/decreases, additions/subtractions, and my mental state of being on a daily basis via a short note on my calendar. I've slipped into once a week notes when I've been doing well and when I'm doing quite terribly. I keep it short and simple--otherwise I wouldn't do it at all. For example: Monday, May 1st: in the little square box I'll write "a.m. good; p.m. bad" followed by a down arrow indicating that the "p.m. bad" are my depressive symptoms.
I had to end my Verapamil experience due to the manner in which it was affecting my heart rate and rhythm in odd ways. However, I was told that these effects wouldn't prevent from me from trying it again sometime in the future. And no, its positive effect on my depression and aggression never decreased!
dove
Posted by Leighwit on May 1, 2002, at 16:27:20
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? » Leighwit, posted by dove on May 1, 2002, at 14:04:42
I have resisted keeping track (on paper) of my experiences with one vs. another AD for various reasons. I'm not always religious in keeping my blood sugar log up-to-date and I suppose I consider that a more pressing area of non-performance (ha, ha).
That said, I can see in reading Dove's posts that there are significant advantages in keeping track of how one is feeling while taking these drugs ~ particularly when ramping up or when the side effects become disruptive or when you know the efficacy of the drug isn't where it needs to be. In other words, unless one is feeling great it's not a bad idea to be logging (I hate the word journaling so I'm avoiding it at all costs)or recording some basic data.
Posted by sl on May 2, 2002, at 9:14:28
In reply to Stupid from drugs or from depression?, posted by Ponder on April 26, 2002, at 11:43:53
Has anyone tried taking Gingko Biloba for this problem??
Posted by johnny1 on May 2, 2002, at 9:27:43
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression?, posted by sl on May 2, 2002, at 9:14:28
> Has anyone tried taking Gingko Biloba for this problem??
Got watch out for drug interaction with herbal medicine, you could be in for a surprise.
Posted by sl on May 2, 2002, at 9:30:36
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression?, posted by johnny1 on May 2, 2002, at 9:27:43
Well nokidding!!
That was sorta the point of posting.
Posted by dove on May 2, 2002, at 10:33:49
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression?, posted by sl on May 2, 2002, at 9:14:28
> Has anyone tried taking Gingko Biloba for this problem??
>
>Actually, yes; the idea came from this board and sent me searching in the "natural" med section of one of those big chain store/warehouses. My p-doc thought it wouldn't hurt either, and gave me the go ahead.
Gingko Biloba affected me within an hour, and not in a positive manner. I found less fog--more clarity; but an incredible increase of irritability and a very low threshold for any minor inconvenience or irritant. I felt very tightly wound, ready to spring and watch my head pop-off!
However, whenever I ramp-up with a nervous-system activating (rather than dampening) med--like fluoxetine (Prozac)--I feel the same way and I usually cut the dose in half and take it spread out over a good 12 hour period of time. I have tried this with the Gingko, but it still creates the same nervous havoc.
I plan to speak w/ my p-doc about this effect and see if he has any hypothesis regarding med-to-med interactions or maybe it's just not the right chemical for me....
Anyone else with experience utilizing Gingko Biloba within a med-cocktail? Or replacing one foggy-brain med for something like Gingko Biloba with positive results?
dove
Posted by sl on May 2, 2002, at 13:00:36
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs? Gingko? Irritation/Clarity, posted by dove on May 2, 2002, at 10:33:49
I just read back to see what you were on...and wow. I'd like to think I'd have less interaction merely because I'm on about 1/6 of the medications your on (e.g. ONE!).
Good to hear someone else thought of it tho...did you try the gingko at a lower dosage, tho, btw?I tend to think the interactions are med-specific tho, so I'm still hoping someone on Wb will answer....
sl
Posted by Pogo on May 2, 2002, at 23:23:00
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs? Gingko? Irritation/Clarity, posted by dove on May 2, 2002, at 10:33:49
I take a high dose of Ritalin for ADD. I tried
SJWort laced with Ginsing\Ginko which worked better for me than straight SJWort- calming my mind down and reducing the mental "Flat" times. I tried SJWort + Ginseng + Ginko, which got me nowhere. I seemed to get heart palpatations (which I forgot to tell my pnurse) and slight tremors in a particular finger of my left hand, which my pnurse picked up on, resulting in
a physical exam. I didn't like taking those herbs. When I stopped taking them, the palpations
and finger tremors stopped.For the past month, I've been taking Omega-3
supplements, 10 Grams Omega-3 (EPA + DHA).
It works a whole lot better for me than the Herbal
Remedies. The moods have flattend out, the "Flat"
mind does'nt at all rear its Ugly Head. I also
sleep a lot better since I stopped with the Herbal Remedies.In addition, I take Sam-e(s) to speed up the Ritalin. Sam-e acts fast for me, much like a cup
of coffee. I used drink coffee when on the Ritalin, but had real bad experience(s)- over stimulated.I never knew why my mind would go "Flat" like that, its very frustrating. When I'd go "Flat",
I'd struggle verbally, amoung other things.regards,
Pogo.
Posted by Phil on May 3, 2002, at 6:28:40
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs? Gingko? Irritation/Clarity, posted by dove on May 2, 2002, at 10:33:49
Always nice seeing your name. I just started on Gingko and bought the Twinlab time released. It seems to be helping and I haven't felt agitated. At least not more agitated than the Wellbutrin makes me. I bought it from www.Vitacost.com ...their prices are low. I got my vitamins and G in 2 days. My brother ordered the same day I did. He lives in Vegas and got his at the same time.
Twinlab daily one caps: 60ea. from grocery stores here are about 16.00. I got the 180 count for 21.00.
Posted by k9lover on May 3, 2002, at 7:36:13
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression?, posted by Leighwit on May 1, 2002, at 16:27:20
Hi
I also track mood (0-10) and drugs - on Excel. The little graphs I can produce then really show me that I'm either down or usually not as bad as I think I am and this is correlated with meds and events. It helps to have such an objective thing when often when I feel low, I think I'm always and permanently depressed - the chart always proves me wrong - a good thing!
Jan
Posted by Uppendown on May 3, 2002, at 11:10:12
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression?, posted by k9lover on May 3, 2002, at 7:36:13
.. tell ?
Hi Ya'll,
( It has been awhile... so please excuse..)
I'm VERY intersted in this topic/thread... I too have relied on my ability to write, and my intellect to accomplish much of what I have in my life, and when I started taking meds, I experienced much of what has been discussed in this thread.
I ended up quitting all meds, but that is another story.. I wanted to interject a thought into this discussion ( I hope it is okay!)..
I've been interested in these things for a long time now, and have done alot of informal research on it. I've lurked on numerous "mental health" message boards, as well as have participated in quite a few. The "side effects" of many of these meds are often discussed, and the experiences strikingly similar amoungst the users. I have very often read posts from individuals wishing they could be "like I used to be".. Cognition, socialiablity, work and other interpersonal relationships and abilty to "interact", weight gain, sexual dysfuntion, physical effects, etc are often listed, and complained about.
One thing that I "see" in many of these conversations is an absence of corrolating the extent to which the "side effects" of these meds, as listed above, contribute to the very symptoms the drugs are trying to relieve. Of course a once bright, witty, gregarious, attractive woman is going to be depressed when they gain a lot of weight, lose their "verve", can't think clearly, can't "feel" emotionally, and have been "indoctrinated" by a society and system that tells them they are "sick". ( This isn't meant to devalue the very real experiences we go through, independant of the "side effects" of these drugs, but is meant solely to try to get us to think about what it really is we're trying to "fix". NO offence intended!)
I tried a couple different meds, and could not stand the "dullness" and apathy they created in me. I tried others that I felt had very few "side effects". But I was so completely amazed when I finally quit cold turkey ( I know, not a "smart" thing to do, but I was desperate..), to find out the extent to which even THOSE meds had altered my ways of thinking and perception. While ON the drugs, and being "affected", it was impossible for me to see objectively what impacts they really were having. Even in self reporting or charting my moods, I was still hopelessly "subjective".
So.. part of what I'm responding to is exactly what the title of this thread is " Stupid from drugs or from depression" .. It might be re-written to say " Depressed from drugs making me stupid?"..
This isn't to say that drugs don't have value. They do. ( Although I have seen clinical, double blind research studies that show Zoloft, etc are no more effective than placebo..) But I think each of us needs to be VERY careful in first identifying what it is we are trying to "fix", before starting on a pharmocological treatment program. Are the sources of our depression, anxiety, panic, etc "situational".. as in caused by situations and circumstances in our life we may be reacting to in ways that therapy may help, or are there "other" issues involved. Even the idea of a "Chemical Imbalance" has yet to be proven. ( You'll note they use the phrases "might be", "is thought to be", etc..)..
So.. before you give your "life away" to these drugs, one approach might be to get some good professional help to specifically identify the sources of your "problems". No one pretends to "know".. everyone involved is just doing the best they can with the ever changing information, theories and concepts.
Best Wishes,
Uppendown
Posted by Ant-Rock on May 3, 2002, at 17:00:41
In reply to Stupid from drugs or from depression? How can you , posted by Uppendown on May 3, 2002, at 11:10:12
> .. tell ?
>
> Hi Ya'll,
>
> ( It has been awhile... so please excuse..)
>
> I'm VERY intersted in this topic/thread... I too have relied on my ability to write, and my intellect to accomplish much of what I have in my life, and when I started taking meds, I experienced much of what has been discussed in this thread.
>
> I ended up quitting all meds, but that is another story.. I wanted to interject a thought into this discussion ( I hope it is okay!)..
>
> I've been interested in these things for a long time now, and have done alot of informal research on it. I've lurked on numerous "mental health" message boards, as well as have participated in quite a few. The "side effects" of many of these meds are often discussed, and the experiences strikingly similar amoungst the users. I have very often read posts from individuals wishing they could be "like I used to be".. Cognition, socialiablity, work and other interpersonal relationships and abilty to "interact", weight gain, sexual dysfuntion, physical effects, etc are often listed, and complained about.
>
> One thing that I "see" in many of these conversations is an absence of corrolating the extent to which the "side effects" of these meds, as listed above, contribute to the very symptoms the drugs are trying to relieve. Of course a once bright, witty, gregarious, attractive woman is going to be depressed when they gain a lot of weight, lose their "verve", can't think clearly, can't "feel" emotionally, and have been "indoctrinated" by a society and system that tells them they are "sick". ( This isn't meant to devalue the very real experiences we go through, independant of the "side effects" of these drugs, but is meant solely to try to get us to think about what it really is we're trying to "fix". NO offence intended!)
>
> I tried a couple different meds, and could not stand the "dullness" and apathy they created in me. I tried others that I felt had very few "side effects". But I was so completely amazed when I finally quit cold turkey ( I know, not a "smart" thing to do, but I was desperate..), to find out the extent to which even THOSE meds had altered my ways of thinking and perception. While ON the drugs, and being "affected", it was impossible for me to see objectively what impacts they really were having. Even in self reporting or charting my moods, I was still hopelessly "subjective".
>
> So.. part of what I'm responding to is exactly what the title of this thread is " Stupid from drugs or from depression" .. It might be re-written to say " Depressed from drugs making me stupid?"..
>
> This isn't to say that drugs don't have value. They do. ( Although I have seen clinical, double blind research studies that show Zoloft, etc are no more effective than placebo..) But I think each of us needs to be VERY careful in first identifying what it is we are trying to "fix", before starting on a pharmocological treatment program. Are the sources of our depression, anxiety, panic, etc "situational".. as in caused by situations and circumstances in our life we may be reacting to in ways that therapy may help, or are there "other" issues involved. Even the idea of a "Chemical Imbalance" has yet to be proven. ( You'll note they use the phrases "might be", "is thought to be", etc..)..
>
> So.. before you give your "life away" to these drugs, one approach might be to get some good professional help to specifically identify the sources of your "problems". No one pretends to "know".. everyone involved is just doing the best they can with the ever changing information, theories and concepts.
>
> Best Wishes,
>
> UppendownHello Uppendown,
Do you know if the older Tricyclic AD's cause these same problems(apathy,numbness,cog-probs)?I know everyone is different, but in general terms.
Thank you,Ant-Rock
Posted by Cindylou on May 3, 2002, at 17:03:28
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? » katekite, posted by dove on April 30, 2002, at 12:43:16
Hi Dove,
I am also very intrigued by this Verapamil, and actually faxed your message to my pdoc.I was wondering if it had any side effects for you -- did it make you fatigued? Are you able to tolerate other mood stabilizers like Lithium without fatigue? I think my pdoc said that Verapamil is mainly for Bipolar I (I'm BPII), and that it just works for people who respond to Lithium (I wasn't able to tolerate Lithium due to the fatigue.)
Thanks in advance! This is really interesting...
cindy
> > Can you post more on your experience with verapamil? What else were you on while taking it? How long did it take to have a beneficial effect? Since I have had some similar side effects to you as other drugs you've been on, I wonder how it would affect me.... I need to look into it.
> >
> >
>
> Verapamil was initially prescribed for my migraines with blackout/fainting aura. It was the first med that ever had a positive effect on my mind. Previously, I had been on Tegretol with disastrous effects (of which I've described all over this board throughout the last 3 or so years), and finally just said "no" and suffered from the migraines and concussions from the fainting until Verapamil entered my life.
>
> At the time, I was not receiving any help with my depression or other emotional 'issues'. I took Verapamil alone and my migraines disappeared with great speed and within two weeks I felt a change take over my whole mind. It was incredible, I called my Internal-Med Doc, raving and ranting about this miracle and he insisted it was merely due to the loss of the migraines, but I knew better. I started researching the med because I didn't believe what my doc had said, I had suffered from depression since around the age of 7.
>
> I found a few, very small studies and references to the utilization of Verapamil in bipolar patients with some beneficial efficiency; and found many references stating its lack of efficiency and limited application within the psycho-pharmaceutical arena of mental illness. Which sort of shocked me, but didn't completely crash all my theories and beliefs that it could be used in certain people with great results.
>
> I have stated this many times in the past, and will do so again, nothing--absolutely nothing--has ever come close to the amazing transformation I had with Verapamil. My goal in my med-treatment is to reach that state of mental health once again. However, I'm still searching, and have stated that I would like to give it another go at some point if none of these complicated med cocktails pan-out.
>
> I would encourage you to look into it, especially if you suffer from depression accompanied by annoyance, or aggravation. These were the key factors that subsided when I took it. And it was quick to act after reaching the goal dosage. It is not considered by any of my p-docs as a "useful" psycho-active med, but it sure was for me.
>
> Good Luck!
>
> dove
Posted by katekite on May 3, 2002, at 18:26:01
In reply to Stupid from drugs or from depression? How can you , posted by Uppendown on May 3, 2002, at 11:10:12
Excellent post! I went off neurontin cold turkey and realized within a couple days that it had really affected my control of my outward expression of my own moods. I did feel more relaxed on it but it was also disinhibiting and because I was relaxed on it, I didn't notice.
It is interesting you bring up to be clear before starting what symptom, or problem you are treating. Very true. The other day I was in my pdocs office and complained about being depressed around my period, PMS. He said, oh, after we get my stimulant for ADD figured out, no problem, we'll take care of the PMS. Later I thought, wait a second..... I was only complaining because I have PMS right now..... I don't need more meds for a problem that's only a problem a couple days a month..... wow I might have accidently gotten myself a whole new drug by accident.
Pdocs often will want to treat all the problems because they are able to.
(This post is not meant at all, in any way, to imply that PMS is not a severe problem for some people.)
kate
Posted by Ron Hill on May 3, 2002, at 18:58:56
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs? Gingko? Irritation/Clarity, posted by dove on May 2, 2002, at 10:33:49
> Gingko Biloba affected me within an hour, and not in a positive manner. I found less fog--more clarity; but an incredible increase of irritability and a very low threshold for any minor inconvenience or irritant. I felt very tightly wound, ready to spring and watch my head pop-off!
--------------------------Dove,
Thank you very much for posting your experience with ginkgo biloba. I'm bipolar II and I take 600 mg/day Lithobid and 200 mg/day SAM-e. In general, this cocktail works great for me. However, once in a while, I become extremely irritable and I flash into a rage. I have come to the conclusion that this irritability is caused by something in my vitamin/herb regimen (which includes ginseng and ginkgo biloba) because when I skip these supplements for a day, the foul mood goes away.
I have been trying to figure out which vitamins and/or herbs are the culprits. Your post provided me with some valuable information in this respect. Thank you.
-- Ron
Posted by Uppendown on May 3, 2002, at 20:27:39
In reply to Re: Stupid from drugs or from depression? How can you » Uppendown, posted by Ant-Rock on May 3, 2002, at 17:00:41
Hi Ant-Rock,
As far as I have been able to determine, with about 5 years of very intensive, daily involvment in these issues, virtually all of these meds have very similar impacts on the individual psyche. The physical impacts vary, as in some are motabilized through the liver, and can cause physiological problems such as liver failure... But my concern is why these meds are prescribed in the first place.. and to what extent our caregivers recognized the impacts of these meds on us. It is no secret that we endure very significant "side effects" from these meds... And as much as I believe that our caregivers mean only the best for us, they don't go through the "experiences" we do.. virtually all of the docs are "book learned". It is to their credit that they work so hard, spend so many hours trying to help us... but upon *what* do they base their advice.. their prescriptions to us ??? You need not take my "word" for any of this, just spend a couple days reading past posts on ANY mental health message board to get a feel for how many people are not doing "well" on these meds. Obviously a "refinement" is needed ! Go back weeks... months... years... ( this thread goes back to 99 ! ) .. you will see EXACTLY the same "complaints" ! Ya HAFTA ask, "why?" " What are the common denominators between all these people, spanning all this time??".
Nobody knows the "answer"... Nobody can tell you it is a "chemical imbalance" .. it is all still just unproven theory.. Yet so many are put on these powerful drugs, which alter their lives. Of that, there is little doubt. For some it is a definate "improvement", but for many, the results are "worse". You can determine this for yourself, easily... read these message boards... or review the results of clinical studies ( I'll send you URLs, if you want..) ..
My issue is solely " For *what* are these meds being prescribed?" .. I know some people *need* meds... but I also "see" very clearly that the impacts of taking them need to be recognized, and aknowledged. It ISN'T like you pop a pill, and your life is suddenly "better". "Better" is subjective, and comes with a "price"...
Please feel free to post to me if you want URLs for further research, or .. if you think I can add to your thoughts in any way..
Best Wishes,
Uppendown
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