![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
[email protected]Shown: posts 10 to 34 of 101. Go back in thread:
Posted by Ron Hill on March 19, 2002, at 1:21:25
In reply to Re: SAM-e Trial » Ron Hill, posted by Ritch on March 19, 2002, at 0:18:46
> It's a blue bottle I got at Walgreen's. Something good is happening with it. Sorry, but I am not going to pay more than $20 a month that likely will not work as well. Hey, I could add another digital cable option!
-------------------------------------Mitch,
I hear ya. A guy has to have his priorites! So far I've been buying Mature Made brand at Costco ($48 for a box of eighty 200 mg tablets). So I guess I pay $36 per month if I take 400 mg/day. I plan to buy my next "refill" on-line because I can get good quality product at a slightly better price than at Costco.
Here is a paragraph that addresses the product quality issue. I read another article that dealt with this issue in more detail, but I can't find it at the moment. Please click on the link below and read this entire article if you have not read it before.
The first challenge is to buy full-strength SAMe. "Some companies are very reliable manufacturers," says Dr. Paul Packman of Washington University in St. Louis. "But some aren't. You can't always tell from the label on the bottle how much active ingredient is actually in it." Pharmaceutical-grade SAMe comes in two forms, one called tosylate and a newer, more stable form called butanedisulfonate. Only Nature Made and GNC sell the new butanedisulfonate version, but several U.S. retailers import reliable tosylate products. And because SAMe is absorbed mainly through the intestine, it's best taken in "enteric coated" tablets that pass through the stomach intact. None of the products comes cheap. The price of a 400-mg dose ranges from $2.50 (Nature Made) up to $18.56 for an uncoated Natrol product called SAM sulfate.
http://www.biopsychiatry.com/sameart.html
Glad to hear it is helping you. Please stay in touch.
-- Ron
Posted by davex on March 19, 2002, at 10:10:30
In reply to Re: SAM-e Trial » Ritch, posted by Ron Hill on March 19, 2002, at 1:21:25
"Better, faster and safer", they sayd about Sam-e, and i could think it was almost true.
I'm on Sam-e since last week for a dystimic disorder caused (i think) by a low level of dopamine.
We know that Sam-e increase the permeability of dopamine through the cellular skin and so increase its disponibility in the brain.
We, also, know that Amisulpride increase the dopamine release in the intercellular space, making so dopamine more available for the cellular usage.
They seem to work for the same result, using differnet ways.
My experience during this week using 400+400 mg/d Sam-e and 75 mg/d Amisulpride, support B group vitamine, is:
More active, alert and interessed in daily things;
Little more energetic, mood a little higher, more "ready to go";
A "wiew of the life" little bright, little more interested in "new projects".
The vision seems to be more clear and i feel easyer in doing more complex thought.
As side-effects i report:
A little difficulty to fall asleep, this cause i feel more energic and active and i feel more difficulty to stay without doing nothing and a little difficulty in relax.
I'll go on this trial and keep you posted about my experience.
Thanks for every share and counsel.
Posted by Ritch on March 19, 2002, at 10:33:07
In reply to Re: SAM-e Trial » Ritch, posted by Ron Hill on March 19, 2002, at 1:21:25
Posted by Ron Hill on March 19, 2002, at 10:42:05
In reply to SAM-e + AMISULPRIDE: week #1 trial experience., posted by davex on March 19, 2002, at 10:10:30
Dave,
Thanks for posting regarding your experience with SAM-e. Please continue to do so.
-- Ron
----------------------> "Better, faster and safer", they sayd about Sam-e, and i could think it was almost true.
> I'm on Sam-e since last week for a dystimic disorder caused (i think) by a low level of dopamine.
> We know that Sam-e increase the permeability of dopamine through the cellular skin and so increase its disponibility in the brain.
> We, also, know that Amisulpride increase the dopamine release in the intercellular space, making so dopamine more available for the cellular usage.
> They seem to work for the same result, using differnet ways.
> My experience during this week using 400+400 mg/d Sam-e and 75 mg/d Amisulpride, support B group vitamine, is:
> More active, alert and interessed in daily things;
> Little more energetic, mood a little higher, more "ready to go";
> A "wiew of the life" little bright, little more interested in "new projects".
> The vision seems to be more clear and i feel easyer in doing more complex thought.
> As side-effects i report:
> A little difficulty to fall asleep, this cause i feel more energic and active and i feel more difficulty to stay without doing nothing and a little difficulty in relax.
> I'll go on this trial and keep you posted about my experience.
> Thanks for every share and counsel.
Posted by IsoM on March 19, 2002, at 13:19:48
In reply to Re: SAM-e + AMISULPRIDE: week #1 trial experience. » davex, posted by Ron Hill on March 19, 2002, at 10:42:05
Because SAMe is not a patented medication & any company can make it, is there any reasoning behind its exorbitantly high prices? Like lithium carbonate is simply a salt & couldn't be patented, so the profits to drug companies wasn't high. What is it with SAMe that it's so costly? I can't believe that it's manufacture is that guarded & difficult? ANy ideas???
Posted by Ron Hill on March 19, 2002, at 15:38:47
In reply to Re: SAM-e and the price, posted by IsoM on March 19, 2002, at 13:19:48
IsoM,
As I understand it, the following contribute to the high cost of SAM-e.
1. SAM-e degrades quickly if exposed to air. Further, the SAM-e tablets need to be enteric coated so that the SAM-e can be dissolved in the small intestines where it can be effectively absorbed. These constraints raise manufacturing costs, packaging costs, and shipping costs. Innovation in SAM-e manufacturing processes will eventually bring the price down.
2. Almost all of the commercially available SAM-e is currently manufactured by one company in Italy. As demand goes up (and it will!), competition will come in and the price will come down.
I pay a buck twenty a day ($1.20) for my 400 mg/day of SAM-e. To me, this is DIRT CHEAP compared to the very high price I paid over the years of lost opportunity due to repeated failures of prescription AD trials. Plus, since I'm self-insured, SAM-e is less expensive for me to purchase than rx AD's.
Here is a good article I just came across:
http://www.iherb.com/same2.html-- Ron
--------------------------------------------------
> Because SAMe is not a patented medication & any company can make it, is there any reasoning behind its exorbitantly high prices? Like lithium carbonate is simply a salt & couldn't be patented, so the profits to drug companies wasn't high. What is it with SAMe that it's so costly? I can't believe that it's manufacture is that guarded & difficult? ANy ideas???
Posted by IsoM on March 19, 2002, at 18:34:14
In reply to Re: SAM-e and the price » IsoM, posted by Ron Hill on March 19, 2002, at 15:38:47
I suppose that the Italian company has a monopoly or patent on the method of synthesising it then. The enteric-coating, easy oxidation problems to overcome, etc does not bring costs up much at all. I'm going to dig out my old pharmaceutical/chemical supplies catalogue I've stashed somewhere & see if it's listed. Think I'll check with my old chem prof too.
Posted by davex on March 19, 2002, at 19:14:08
In reply to Re: SAM-e and the price » Ron Hill, posted by IsoM on March 19, 2002, at 18:34:14
Hi, I live in Italy.
Here we have about five different brands of SAM-e.
The difference of price between them is significative. One of them is the cheaper (Samyr), were the cost for a 20 pill at 400 mg is about 20 euros (less than 1$ for pill).
The injectable preparation is more expensive (3-4 euros for flx at 500 mg) but this preparation seems to be more effective than oral pills.
However, it is a great cost therapy!
The cost seem to depend by the particular preparation system that is very observing for do not damage the preparate that is very instable and delicate.
Posted by IsoM on March 19, 2002, at 19:29:58
In reply to Re: SAM-e and the price, posted by davex on March 19, 2002, at 19:14:08
So Dave, do you take it yourself & did you find a difference in how each works?
Posted by colin wallace on March 20, 2002, at 3:57:35
In reply to Re: SAM-e and the price » davex, posted by IsoM on March 19, 2002, at 19:29:58
I've been scouring the net in a quest to find an online Italian manufacturer to buy direct from Italy- cut out the middle man.So far, no luck.
If I come across one, I'll post it.
Posted by davex on March 20, 2002, at 6:51:57
In reply to Re: SAM-e and the price » davex, posted by IsoM on March 19, 2002, at 19:29:58
Sorry, no i was only on one brand and in the oral pill form (never tray injectable form).
I know that pdoc strongly counsel injectable form cause it seems to be stronger and faster than oral form: in oral form the most part of Metionine is destroied by the liver and only about 20% of active drug pass to the brain cells.
However, i've read that a dosage near to 1600 mg/d in oral form is quite similar to injectable form.
I will probably increase soon dosage to 400 mg for 3 times a day.
I'll post any impressions reported on it.
Posted by Lia Mason on March 20, 2002, at 10:01:16
In reply to Re: SAM-e and the price » IsoM, posted by davex on March 20, 2002, at 6:51:57
I've posted this before...
CVS puts nature made on sale 50% off regularly. I stock up this way and save money. Watch CVS circulars!
Posted by Ron Hill on March 20, 2002, at 11:39:46
In reply to Re: SAM-e and the price » IsoM, posted by davex on March 20, 2002, at 6:51:57
> I know that pdoc strongly counsel injectable form cause it seems to be stronger and faster than oral form: in oral form the most part of Metionine is destroied by the liver and only about 20% of active drug pass to the brain cells. However, i've read that a dosage near to 1600 mg/d in oral form is quite similar to injectable form.
------------------------------------Dave et al,
The following article is a worthwhile read and the issue of oral verses injectable effectiveness is addressed in the tenth paragraph.
http://www.iherb.com/same2.htmlThe contents of the following article are excerpted from "Encyclopedia of Nutritional Supplements", chapter 45, by Michael M. Murray, Copyright © 1996 by Prima Publishing.
S-Adenosylmethionine (SAM) is an important physiological agent formed in the body by combining the essential amino acid methionine with adenosyl-triphosphate (ATP). SAM was discovered in Italy in 1952-- not surprisingly, most of the research on SAM has been conducted in the country of its discovery.
Food Sources
Because SAM is manufactured from methionine, you might think that dietary sources of methionine provide the same benefits as SAM. However, high doses of methionine do not increase levels of SAM, nor do they provide the same pharmacological activity as SAM. On the contrary, high dosages of methionine are associated with some degree of toxicity.Deficiency Signs and Symptoms
Normally the body manufactures all the SAM it needs from the amino acid methionine. However, a deficiency of methionine, vitamin B12, or folic acid can result in decreased SAM synthesis. In addition, tissue levels of SAM are typically low in the elderly and in patients suffering from osteoarthritis, depression, and various liver disorders.Beneficial Effects
SAM is involved in over 40 biochemical reactions in the body. It functions closely with folic acid and vitamin B12 in "methylation" reactions--the process of adding a single carbon unit (a metyl group) to another molecule. SAM is many times more effective in transferring methyl groups than other methyl donors. Methylation reactions are critical in the manufacture of many body components--- especially brain chemical --and in detoxification reactions.SAM is also required in the manufacture of all sulfur-containing compounds in the human body, including glutathione and various sulfur-containing cartilage components. The beneficial effects of SAM supplementation are far-reaching because of its central role in so many metabolic processes.
Available Forms
SAM has been available commercially in Europe since 1975. Unfortunately, as of April 1996, it was still not available in the United States. I discuss it here because I believe it will be into U.S. health-food stores as a nutritional supplement in the very near future. The commercial form of SAM is a stabilized salt produced under U.S. patent numbers 3,954,726 (1976) and 4,057,686 (1977).Principal Uses
There are five principal conditions where SAM is used: depression, osteoarthritis, fibromyalgia, liver disorders, and migraine headaches.Depression
SAM is necessary in the manufacture of important brain compounds such as neurotransmitters and phospholipids like phosphatidylcholine and phosphatidylserine. Supplementing the diet with SAM in depressed patients results in increased levels of serotonin, dopamine, and phosphatidylserine. It improves binding of neurotransmitters to receptor sites, which causes increased serotonin and dopamine activity and improved brain cell membrane fluidity, all resulting in significant clinical improvement.The antidepressive effects of folic acid (Vitamin B6) are mild compared to the effects noted in clinical trials using SAM. Based on results from a number of clinical studies, it appears that SAM is perhaps the most effective natural antidepressant (although a strong argument could be made for the extract of St. John's Wort standardized to contain 0.3 percent hypericin) Tables 45.1 and 45.2 [ following tables ] summarize double-blind studies comparing SAM to either a placebo or an antidepressant drug.
Most of the studies cited in Table 45.1 and 45.2 used injectable SAM. However, more recent studies using a new oral preparation at a dosage of 400 milligrams four times daily (1600 mg total) demonstrate that SAM is just as effective orally as it is intravenously. SAM is better tolerated and has a quicker onset of antidepressant action than tricyclic antidepressants.
The most recent study compared SAM to the tricyclic desipramine. In addition to clinical response, the blood level of SAM was determined in both groups. At the end of the 4-week trial, 62 percent of the patients treated with SAM and 50 percent of the patients treated with desipramine had significantly improved. Regardless of the type of treatment, patients with a 50 percent decrease in their Hamilton Depression Scale (HAM-D) score showed a significant increase in plasma SAM concentration. These results suggests that one of the ways tricyclic drugs exert antidepressive effects is by raising SAM levels.
In addition to generalized depression, there are two conditions associated with depression where SAM produces significant effects: the postpartum (after pregnancy) period and drug rehabilitation. SAM's benefits in these conditions probably stem from a combination of its effects on brain chemistry and liver function. In the study in postpartum depression (after-pregnancy "blues"), the administration of SAM (1,600 milligrams per day) produced significantly better mood scores than a placebo group. As for the use of SAM in drug detoxification, SAM (1,200 milligrams daily) significantly reduced psychological distress (chiefly anxiety and depression) in the detoxification and rehabilitation of opiate abusers.
Fibromyalgia
Fibromyalgia is a recently recognized disorder which is regarded as a common cause of chronic musculoskeletal pain and fatigue. Fibromyalgia shares many common features with another recently termed syndrome, the chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS).
The only difference in diagnostic criteria for fibromyalgia and CFS is the requirement of musculoskeletal pain in fibromyalgia and fatigue in CFS. The likelihood of being diagnosed as having fibromyalgia or CFS depends on the type of physician consulted. Specifically, if the patient consults a rheumatologist or orthopedic specialist, he or she is much more likely to be diagnosed with fibromyalgia than CFSs. Depression is often an underlying finding in both fibromyalgia and CFS.Diagnosis requires fulfillment of all the following major criteria and four or more minor criteria. The major criteria are:
Generalized aches or stiffness of at least three anatomic sites for at least three months
Six or more typical, reproducible tender points
Exclusion of other disorders that can cause similar symptoms
The minor criteria are:
Generalized fatigue
Chronic headache
Sleep disturbance
Neurological and psychological complaints
Joint swelling
numbing or tingling sensations
Irritable bowel syndrome
Variation of symptoms in relation to activity, stress, and weather changes
Three clinical studies show SAM produces excellent benefits in patients suffering from fibromyalgia. The first study was a double-blind, crossover study of 17 patients with fibromyalgia. During treatment with SAM (200 milligrams daily by injection for 21 days), subjects demonstrated significant reduction in the number of trigger points and painful areas and improvements in mood.
In another double-blind study, orally administered SAM (800 milligrams daily) was compared to a placebo for 6 weeks in 44 patients with fibromyalgia. Researchers evaluated tender point score, muscle strength, disease activity, subjective symptoms, mood parameters, and side effects. Patients given SAM demonstrated improvements in clinical disease activity, pain experienced during the last week, fatigue, morning stiffness, and mood; however, the tender point score and muscle strength did not differ in the two treatment groups. SAM was without side effects.
The most recent study compared SAM to transutaneous electrical nerve stimulation (TENS)-- a popular treatment for fibromyalgia-- in 30 patients with fibromyalgia. Patients receiving SAM (200 milligrams by injection and 400 milligrams orally daily) demonstrated significantly greater clinical benefits---decreased number of tender points, subjective feelings of pain and fatigue, and improved mood. TENS offered little benefit on most symptoms while SAM was deemed "effective in relieving the signs and symptoms of primary fibromyalgia."
Migraine
SAM is beneficial in the treatment of migraine headaches. The benefits manifest gradually and require long-term treatment for therapeutic effectiveness.Dosage Ranges
In general, the longer SAM is used, the more beneficial the results. It is perfectly suited for long-term use because of its excellent safety profile. Here are the dosage ranges for the various clinical indications.Depression Four hundred milligrams three to four times daily. Because SAM can cause nausea and gastrointestinal disturbances in some people, it should be started at a dosage of 200 milligrams twice daily for the first day, increased to 400 milligrams twice daily on day three, 400 milligrams three times daily on day ten, and finally to the full dosage of 400 milligrams four times daily after 20 days if needed.
Fibromyalgia Two hundred milligrams to 400 milligrams two times daily.
Safety Issues
No significant side effects have been reported with oral SAM other than the occasional nausea and gastrointestinal disturbances. However, individuals with bipolar (manic) depression should not take SAM unless under strict medical supervision. SAM's antidepressant activity may lead to the manic phase in these individuals. This effect is exclusive to some individuals with bipolar depression.Interactions
SAM functions very closely with vitamin B12, folic acid, vitamin B6, and choline in methylation reactions. Because of SAM's effects on the liver, it may enhance the elimination of various drugs from the body. The clinical significance of this particular effect has not been fully determined.-- Ron
Posted by colin wallace on March 20, 2002, at 14:32:55
In reply to Re: SAM-e and the price, posted by davex on March 19, 2002, at 19:14:08
This is about the cheapest Nature Made Sam-e I've stumbled across:
Posted by Ron Hill on March 20, 2002, at 14:57:35
In reply to Sam-E offer (link) , posted by colin wallace on March 20, 2002, at 14:32:55
> This is about the cheapest Nature Made Sam-e I've stumbled across:
>
> http://col.branddiscountvitamins.com/sam-e.htm
--------------------------------------------Colin,
I get the same brand for a little less money at Costco.
Website: 50 tablets (200 mg) for $34.63 = 69.3 cents/tablet
Costco: 80 tablets (200 mg) for $46.99 = 58.7 cents/tablet
-- Ron
Posted by colin wallace on March 20, 2002, at 15:30:47
In reply to Re: Sam-E offer (link) » colin wallace, posted by Ron Hill on March 20, 2002, at 14:57:35
Oh yeah, I forgot about costco...trouble is, they won't ship to the UK- I contacted them recently, and they say they hope to get this up and running in the near future.
BTW, up to 400mg now, and feeling good.
Couldn't let you outdo me could I.?!!!Stay well'
Col.
Posted by Ron Hill on March 20, 2002, at 16:41:22
In reply to Sam-E offer (link) , posted by colin wallace on March 20, 2002, at 14:32:55
Colon, Mitch, Isomer et al,
Since I have been such a strong (outspoken) advocate for SAM-e on this board lately, I want to also be sure to report any and all problems with the "medication" so as to provide a balanced view.
Please recall that I increased from 200 mg to 400 mg of SAM-e when I discontinued my low dose of Zoloft (12.5 mg/day) last week. Yesterday I began to feel a little hypomanic on the 400 mg/dose. Therefore, starting today, I've reduced my dose back down to 200 mg/day.
Colin, I suspect I would do better with two doses of 100 mg spread out during the day as opposed to one dose of 200 mg. Therefore, I may order some of those 100 mg tablets you found on-line a few weeks ago. Thanks again for sharing that site with me. If I take two 100 mg tablets it costs 83 cents/day, whereas, if I take one 200 mg tablet it costs 59 cents/day. Bottom line is that the divided dose would cost me an extra $7.20 per month (or $86.40 per year).
Someone that I have great respect for says "Over the lips, and through the fingertips, thoughts disentangle themselves". Prior to typing this post I was stubbornly resisting the idea of spending extra money solely to facilitate a divided dose. But now that I have it typed out and see it on paper (e-paper), I'm beginning to change my cheapskate mind.
-- Ron
Posted by IsoM on March 20, 2002, at 16:57:28
In reply to SAM-e Induced Hypomania Colon, Mitch, IsoM et al, posted by Ron Hill on March 20, 2002, at 16:41:22
Ron, I'm cheap too. If it's a tablet, couldn't you just cut the pill in half? If it's a capsule, you can divide it by buying larger empty gelatin capsules at a drug store (they're cheap) & don't try to take the powder out of the SAMe capsule, but simply divide & stuff into two larger capsules, powder, half-capsule & all.
Posted by davex on March 20, 2002, at 19:03:16
In reply to Re: SAM-e, dividing the dose » Ron Hill, posted by IsoM on March 20, 2002, at 16:57:28
Be caution in dividing dose of SAM-e:
The substance must be absorbed in the Duodeno (second part of intestinal system) so it must pass inactive through stomach and first part of intestine.
This is the why it is prepared in gastro-intestinal resistant pills or capsules.
If you divide pills you risk to inactive the drug, cause it could be dangered by the acid in the stomach.
If you would prepare divide dose in capsule you must be sure to use gastro-intestinal resistant capsule.
Note that the pills are prepared in blisters with
acid environment to preserve its quality of gastro resistance.
You should never open the blister if not immediately before takeing the pill, if you do that you could danger its resistant skin.
In conclusion, sam-e is an extremely delicate preparation, to hand it could inactive it.
Posted by IsoM on March 20, 2002, at 19:33:00
In reply to Re: SAM-e, dividing the dose: caution., posted by davex on March 20, 2002, at 19:03:16
Posted by Ritch on March 21, 2002, at 0:17:56
In reply to SAM-e Induced Hypomania Colon, Mitch, IsoM et al, posted by Ron Hill on March 20, 2002, at 16:41:22
> Colon, Mitch, Isomer et al,
>
> Since I have been such a strong (outspoken) advocate for SAM-e on this board lately, I want to also be sure to report any and all problems with the "medication" so as to provide a balanced view.
>
> Please recall that I increased from 200 mg to 400 mg of SAM-e when I discontinued my low dose of Zoloft (12.5 mg/day) last week. Yesterday I began to feel a little hypomanic on the 400 mg/dose. Therefore, starting today, I've reduced my dose back down to 200 mg/day.
>
> Colin, I suspect I would do better with two doses of 100 mg spread out during the day as opposed to one dose of 200 mg. Therefore, I may order some of those 100 mg tablets you found on-line a few weeks ago. Thanks again for sharing that site with me. If I take two 100 mg tablets it costs 83 cents/day, whereas, if I take one 200 mg tablet it costs 59 cents/day. Bottom line is that the divided dose would cost me an extra $7.20 per month (or $86.40 per year).
>
> Someone that I have great respect for says "Over the lips, and through the fingertips, thoughts disentangle themselves". Prior to typing this post I was stubbornly resisting the idea of spending extra money solely to facilitate a divided dose. But now that I have it typed out and see it on paper (e-paper), I'm beginning to change my cheapskate mind.
>
> -- Ron
Hi Ron,Thanks for the "warning". I have been feeling even better lately. I am only taking Celexa 2.5mg 3x weekly (my only antidepressant). But, I am taking 2.5mg of Dexedrine every day (afternoons). I really must say-that with the SAM-e addition I almost feel like I could stop the Celexa. I have found more hypomania symptoms with it than I have the dexedrine or the SAM-e, even at its microdose. The thing is whether panic will start returning if I ditch it. Will SAM-e have any sort of antipanic effect that AD's typically provide for folks with PD??
Mitch
Posted by colin wallace on March 21, 2002, at 3:16:11
In reply to SAM-e Induced Hypomania Colon, Mitch, IsoM et al, posted by Ron Hill on March 20, 2002, at 16:41:22
Ron,
You didn't get any hypo. symptoms at 200mg daily did you? I'm sure you've considered just dropping back down to one 200mg pill , before you shell out extra for the 100mg pills.Also, do you think perhaps you may be experiencing some Zoloft withdrawal reaction (I know that sometimes this doesn't appear for a week or so after discontinuation.)
Still, at least if you grab a bottle or two of GNC 100mg pills, you'll be able to test out 300mg at some point!Colon (Gastrointestinal, enterically coated...)
Posted by Ron Hill on March 21, 2002, at 4:08:50
In reply to Re: SAM-e Induced Hypomania Colon, Mitch, IsoM et al » Ron Hill, posted by Ritch on March 21, 2002, at 0:17:56
> I have been feeling even better lately.
Mitch, I'm really glad that the SAM-e add-on is working well for you so far. How much are you currently taking? Still 250 mg?
>I am only taking Celexa 2.5mg 3x weekly (my only antidepressant). But, I am taking 2.5mg of Dexedrine every day (afternoons). I really must say-that with the SAM-e addition I almost feel like I could stop the Celexa. I have found more hypomania symptoms with it than I have the dexedrine or the SAM-e, even at its microdose. The thing is whether panic will start returning if I ditch it. Will SAM-e have any sort of antipanic effect that AD's typically provide for folks with PD??
I believe the answer is yes, however, since I do have PD as part of my formal dx, my experience may differ from yours. But for me, I have been pleasantly surprised by what I will call (for lack of a better term) a "soothing, calming, anti-irritability" effect. YMMV.
A couple of days ago, when you were so kind as to send me a list of your current meds, your wrote:
>Depakote 125-250mg hs (no tremor with Flax oil and the SAM-e!)
Klonopin .5mg hs
Neurontin 100mg tid
Dexedrine 5mg/day
Celexa 2.5mg every other dayYour note after the Depakote dose intrigues me. What I read into your statement, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that at one point in time Depakote caused tremors in you hands. But with the flax seed oil and SAM-e add-ons, the tremors are gone. Do I have it right? If so, my read would be that Depakote can, in some cases like yours, deplete dopamine levels. And, further, SAM-e and/or flax seed oil restore DA levels and/or DA transmission.
-- Ron
Posted by davex on March 21, 2002, at 7:04:02
In reply to Re: SAM-e Induced Hypomania Ron H., posted by colin wallace on March 21, 2002, at 3:16:11
Hi,
i'm actually on 1200 mg/d SAM-e from few days, and takeing SAM-e 800 mg/d from more than a week.
I've never felt Hipomania or other symphtoms like this.
I'm quite more euphoric aenergic and motivated, but these are only right effects.
I think this cause i'm not bipolar, never been hipomaniacal but only pure depressed.
Good luck.
Posted by Ritch on March 21, 2002, at 10:53:45
In reply to Re: SAM-e » Ritch, posted by Ron Hill on March 21, 2002, at 4:08:50
> > I have been feeling even better lately.
>
> Mitch, I'm really glad that the SAM-e add-on is working well for you so far. How much are you currently taking? Still 250 mg?Oh, just a 200mg enteric tablet in the morning. I used to take *all* my vitamins/flax/SAMe, etc at lunch. Too many pills at once! So, I do the SAMe and sublingual B-complex in the morning first thing and then make coffee (with a 100mg Neurontin). I notice that on an empty stomach I do feel just *slightly* queasy, but NOTHING like taking a larger dose of an SSRI (esp. Zoloft). Celexa gives me heartburn and reflux within about 2 hrs of taking it. I will be trying low-dose escitalopram when it is available to see if that is significantly reduced. BTW, I think the SAMe is helping ADHD symptoms. I can tell when those improve because they are directly correlated with my ability to pick out words in lyrical music.
>
> >I am only taking Celexa 2.5mg 3x weekly (my only antidepressant). But, I am taking 2.5mg of Dexedrine every day (afternoons). I really must say-that with the SAM-e addition I almost feel like I could stop the Celexa. I have found more hypomania symptoms with it than I have the dexedrine or the SAM-e, even at its microdose. The thing is whether panic will start returning if I ditch it. Will SAM-e have any sort of antipanic effect that AD's typically provide for folks with PD??
>
> I believe the answer is yes, however, since I do have PD as part of my formal dx, my experience may differ from yours. But for me, I have been pleasantly surprised by what I will call (for lack of a better term) a "soothing, calming, anti-irritability" effect. YMMV.
I probably will do OK, because I am already on .5mg (sometimes a little more) of Klonopin. I just worry about receptor "upregulation" occurring from not taking an AD and that leading to panic symptoms reemerging. But, of course that is all theory stuff.>
> A couple of days ago, when you were so kind as to send me a list of your current meds, your wrote:
>
> >Depakote 125-250mg hs (no tremor with Flax oil and the SAM-e!)
> Klonopin .5mg hs
> Neurontin 100mg tid
> Dexedrine 5mg/day
> Celexa 2.5mg every other day
>
> Your note after the Depakote dose intrigues me. What I read into your statement, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that at one point in time Depakote caused tremors in you hands. But with the flax seed oil and SAM-e add-ons, the tremors are gone. Do I have it right? If so, my read would be that Depakote can, in some cases like yours, deplete dopamine levels. And, further, SAM-e and/or flax seed oil restore DA levels and/or DA transmission.
>
> -- Ron
Oh, I should have explained that in more detail. I actually attribute it to the three way add-on of the SAMe, flax, and dexedrine to elminating the tremor. I was up to 250mg of Depakote at bedtime for several nites in a row (from 125mg hs), and I expected my left hand tremor and left eyelid flutter to start happening again. It hasn't. I am a little impressed. I am beginning to wonder if my pdoc suspects some early onset Parkinson's and is allowing me to tinker with the pstims a little to see if some of my dystonia and med-induced tremor will just "go away". The last bout of dystonia was triggered from atypical AP's and it faded VERY slowly.Mitch
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